Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Pakistan Murdabad: Difference between revisions

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Pakistan Murdabad

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This article very aptly fits a dictionary definition of WP:BATTLEGROUND and WP:POV editing, created in response to another article Pakistan Zindabad. The subject of the article is a derogatory attack term which is inappropriate and has no place here, by any stretch. The article, if not outright deleted, should preferably be merged into Anti-Pakistan sentiment. I cannot see any WP:AGF involved in the creation of this article. There are heaps of slogans, and last time I checked, Wikipedia didn't have articles on attack slogans like "Death to America", "Death to India" etc. Mar4d (talk) 14:48, 29 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

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Delete as nominator. Mar4d (talk) 17:44, 29 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Speedy Keep Another example of bad faith nomination. Please see WP:NOTCENSORED. Notability has been proven, and the article has been written in a neutral manner, with only those facts which have been verified by WP:RSs. When Pakistan Zindabad (Long Live Pakistan) can have a place on Wikipedia, then why not Pakistan Murdabad, and that too when both have almost equal coverage. This also seems a case of WP:HOUNDING, as the article was an orphan at the time of speedy deletion nomination. ♛♚★Vaibhav Jain★♚♛ ^Talk ^Email 14:52, 29 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Speedy Keep - Not a bad faith nom for sure but I doubt that how did Mar4d got to this article? There will always be difference of opinions among editors. But I have to say that the nom isn't proper at all. It is not WP:BATTLEGROUND and WP:POV obviously as notability has been established with ample of WP:RS in the article to meet WP:GNG and many (I mean tons of them) are available online. It is not POV as it has been written in a neutral manner. "Pakistan Murdabad" which means "Death to Pakistan" is much more popular and frequently used in conflicts, then "Death to America" and thus it doesn't have any article. This is a notable topic and it has been proven by the use of it at so many events by different notable people. →TSU ^tp* 15:03, 29 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

"Pakistan Murdabad" which means "Death to Pakistan" is much more popular and frequently used in conflicts, then "Death to America" and thus it doesn't have any article. Hogwash. What makes you say that, other than your own personal opinion? Mar4d (talk) 15:32, 29 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Not an personal opinion. This and This. →TSU ^tp* 15:36, 29 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Even better, here and here. →TSU ^tp* 15:51, 29 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

You link to Google searches for death to america, but you should have linked to "death to america". JamesBWatson (talk) 16:55, 29 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

@Mar4d Your argument is completely invalid. If no article has been created on a related topic, then that dos not means that no such article should be kept. ♛♚★Vaibhav Jain★♚♛ ^Talk ^Email 15:58, 29 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Quite. Feel free to create Death to America if you like, but the fact that nobody has yet done so isn't a reason for deleting Pakistan Murdabad. I think Death to America is used sufficiently often in some parts of the world that it may well be notable enough for an article. JamesBWatson (talk)

@TSU: Good, now do a same google search on India Murdabad and Hindustan Murdabad and all other catchphrases. What exactly do you intend to prove? And as for your other comment, no, "Death to America" is used worldwide, but I don't know why you took up the subject. Just to summarise, I'm not impressed by your argument, try this: Wikipedia:Arguments_to_avoid_in_deletion_discussions#Google_test. Mar4d (talk) 17:14, 29 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- I m aware of that. I m talking about the mentions of the phrase "Pakistan Murdabad" in the links not the hits. →TSU ^tp* 17:34, 30 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Speedy Delete per WP:ATTACK. I don't know how it came to AfD, it should have been speedy deleted per CSD#G10. --SMS ^Talk 16:51, 29 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Errm, what? Where on earth is the attack? It doesn't attack Pakistan, it simply reports on an expression which is used by some people to attack Pakistan. To say it should be speedily deleted as an attack page makes about as much sense as saying that Adolf Hitler should be deleted because it is an antisemitic page, or that Cyanide should be deleted because it is a deadly poisonous page. JamesBWatson (talk) 17:01, 29 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

So if someone comes up tomorrow with an article called "Fuck XYZ country" and describe its use, you would have no objections? Mar4d (talk) 17:18, 29 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

(edit conflict)This kind of expression is used for all nations, ethnic groups and people too, by their rivals. Tell me won't these be attack pages: "Death to <person>", "Death to <ethnic group>", "Death to <nation>", like "Death to Bush", "Death to Obama", these kind of expressions are reported abundantly, but this don't make it a valuable content for an encyclopedia, it may be used in an article with context where required but it should not have a separate article. Rivals of a country, group or a person also hurl abuses about them, will they also find place among our articles? --SMS ^Talk 17:22, 29 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Pakistan Murdabad is a very popular slogan. The article also describes the origin of the slogan. Again to remind, Wikipedia is not censored. ♛♚★Vaibhav Jain★♚♛ ^Talk ^Email 15:14, 30 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Strong KEEP: The page is no where an attack page, its just showcases a very very popular quote. The article is not attacking the country of Pakistan as an whole. Well, yeah, remember that Wikipedia is uncensored. -- ♪Karthik♫ ♪Nadar♫ 17:38, 29 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Speedy Keep: The article is written in accordance with the policies of Wikipedia and I don't see any reason why it should be deleted. Wikipedia is an encyclopaedia and knowledge repository. People might want to learn more about "Pakistan Murdabaad". No harm in creating such articles. Editors should not get sentimental over here.BPositive (talk) 17:54, 29 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Delete, trivial WP:OR. The existence of the slogan as such is presumably a trivial fact of the Hindi language – just as in English you can trivially create a "down with X" slogan about anything you hate, and a "long live Y" slogan about anything you support. The fact that people use such slogans about various issues and at various occasions doesn't render these stereotyped slogans themselves notable, separately from the notability of the political issue each of them represents. The article consists solely of an enumeration of separate and unconnected cases where people are reported to have used this slogan, without – as far as I can see – any source discussing the slogan as a cultural or political phenomenon in its own right. As such, the article is a paradigm case of WP:SYNTH Fut.Perf. ☼ 17:56, 29 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Comment The AfD is unusually attracting keep !votes from users who are mostly related to WikiProject India, even though this article is not listed there. I am going to place {{Not a ballot}} at the top to remind editors that this is not a majority vote discussion and keeping in mind WP:COI and WP:NOTVOTE sensitivities. India's (percieved) hatred of Pakistan alone is not an adequate enough reason to keep this WP:SYNTH article. Mar4d (talk) 18:23, 29 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- So what's your problem if people are commenting from WP India. Shouldn't we participate in the discussion? Please stop attacking people/community, and concentrate on the AFD. -- ♪Karthik♫ ♪Nadar♫ 19:56, 29 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Strong Delete: Simply an attack page. Wikipedia is a not about personal POV. If this kind of page is created stating

Hindustan Murdabad is a Pakistani slogan most commonly used while referring to Anti-India sentiment. It translates to "Death to India".

how would the people who have placed a keep tag like?
Though Hindustan Murdabad is not a slogan commonly or famously used in Pakistan. The slogans used in Pakistan are much worse, for which, if a page is created, may make Wikipedia an abusepedia.
Strong delete recommended.
--Inlandmamba _{(talk to me)} 18:30, 29 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Precisely. You have reinforced what I've been trying to say all along but couldn't express any clearer :p Mar4d (talk) 18:41, 29 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Why I have to remind again and again that Wikipedia is not censored. If you think that those slogans are notable, you are most welcome to add them here. Please be on the topic and don't try to make this AfD off-topic. ♛♚★Vaibhav Jain★♚♛ ^Talk ^Email 08:44, 30 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Speedy Delete: As the nomination says, this is pure WP:ATTACK and WP:BATTLEGROUND. If this slogan is acceptable for Wikipedia, then there are literally hundreds of other such Anti-national sentiments that should be here as well. These pages would serve no other purpose then to spread hate speech and provoke conflict which is evident by the votes here instead. Most in support of the article are Indians and most who want it deleted are from Pakistan. Also, this page shows clear signs of Original Research as the facts presented can easily be disputed and provides no real value to the readers. UzEE 22:29, 29 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Can you explain how is this WP:ATTACK? Also I really can't understand your statement that the facts are disputed. ♛♚★Vaibhav Jain★♚♛ ^Talk ^Email 15:14, 30 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Delete. Article is just a list of occurrences of people using a fairly common phrase and thus borders on being WP:OR. Any content from this page that is worth keeping can be merged in with Anti-Pakistan sentiment. CodeTheorist (talk) 22:37, 29 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Can you explain how doe this article meets WP:OR. It also has information on the etymology and the origin. ♛♚★Vaibhav Jain★♚♛ ^Talk ^Email 06:48, 30 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]
The article gives the etymology of the phrase, but WP is not a dictionary (WP:NOTDIC) and such things are better added to Wiktionary. The phrase has been used a number of times according to the references in the article, but mere common usage of a phrase doesn't mean that it is worthy of inclusion in Wikipedia, so the references are all irrelevant (even if they are reliable sources). In fact most of the references only mention the phrase in passing. The only references that would make the term notable and worthy of inclusion in Wikipedia would be reliable sources that considered the socio-political and historical importance of the phrase. The article as it stands is trying to make the case that the phrase is important and worthy of notice, when it should instead be referencing a scholarly article that makes that case. That is why it is original research. CodeTheorist (talk) 17:09, 30 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Delete per CodeTheorist. --Metropolitan90 (talk) 02:41, 30 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Delete The article is messy, confused and poorly laid out. The article starts with this introduction,

“ Pakistan Murdabad is a Hindustani slogan most commonly used while referring to Anti-Pakistan sentiment. It translates to "Death to Pakistan"." Under the heading, Etymology, the title of the article has been defined as “The slogan is the use of typical Urdu and Persian suffix Murdabad.

The first reference in both introduction and first heading is same and based on a commentary of a short story, “Toba Tek Singh” written by Sadat Hasan Munto, published in Urdu language . The plot of the story is about a lunatic asylum at the time of Partition of India and Pakistan in 1947, and the writer was a master of Urdu literature and Pakistani. The suffix ‘Murdabad’ was used at random in the story. This reference does not imply that the slogan is most commonly used.

The second reference is based on a book about the events at the time of Partition of India. In this reference, the word was also used at random. It reads as follows

“certain boys, who rashly chanted Pakistan Zindabad, (Longlive Pakistan!), instead of Pakistan Murdabad (Down with Pakistan), were arrested.” (“British documents on foreign affairs: reports and papers from the Foreign Office confidential print. From 1946 through 1950. Asia, Volume 9).

The reader may judge for himself that how this reference states that the slogan is most commonly used. It is clear from these references that the slogan underlines the missing notability and that the article is therefore some sort of poor google research and original research to close this gap, therefore fails to fulfill WP notability criterion. Regards Averroist (talk) 15:54, 30 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Delete. Per Fut.Perf, this slogan is an expression of Anti-Pakistan sentiment, and should be included in that article, rather than have its own. There are many permutations of this phrase like Death to America, which do not have their own articles. There are not enough sources which speak about the use of the term and why it is unique, rather than note its use in passing, to convince me that this phrase has independent notability. Shrigley (talk) 17:10, 30 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Delete or Merge: Nothing more than Anti-Pakistan sentiment. Only used in the sub-continent and not notable in the rest of the world. Samar (Talk . Contributions) 17:20, 30 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Comment Besides an attack article (as I stated in my above comments), it also violates WP:DIGNITY. And some of the similar articles I found here on Wikipedia are only kept as redirects to respective Anti- sentiment articles. An example is Death to Israel, which was speedy deleted as an attack page and later redirected to Anti-Zionism page. --SMS ^Talk 17:28, 30 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Strong delete: per NPOV,and civility applies not only on editors but should be on articles too.Justice007 (talk) 05:43, 1 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Strong Keep I see nothing attacking in the article whatsoever.Evey bit of information from the article is clearly sourced..so I see no reason for deletion. ≫TheStrike Σagle≪ 08:47, 1 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Weak Keep see no reason to delete, it satisfies WP:GNG, but at the same time it is heavily opinionated. The argument this should be kept because x article exists is not valid here. --Rsrikanth05 (talk) 05:20, 2 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Keep I don't see any attack. Meets WP:GNG, well sourced and totally makes sense. -- ɑηsuмaη ^{ʈ ᶏ ɭ Ϟ} 08:28, 2 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]

@@ Line 61: / Line 61: @@
 * '''Weak Keep''' see no reason to delete, it satisfies WP:GNG, but at the same time it is heavily opinionated. The argument this should be kept because x article exists is not valid here. --[[User:Rsrikanth05|Rsrikanth05]] ([[User talk:Rsrikanth05|talk]]) 05:20, 2 July 2012 (UTC)
 * '''Keep''' I don't see any attack. Meets [[WP:GNG]], well sourced and totally makes sense. --&nbsp;[[User:ansumang|<font color="#007FFF">ɑηsuмaη</font>]] [[User talk:ansumang|<span title="Shoot!" style="cursor: crosshair;"><sup> ʈ ᶏ ɭ Ϟ</sup></span>]] 08:28, 2 July 2012 (UTC)
-:<small class="delsort-notice">Note:  This debate has been included in the [[Wikipedia:WikiProject Deletion sorting/India|list of India-related deletion discussions]].--&nbsp;[[User:ansumang|<font color="#007FFF">ɑηsuмaη</font>]] [[User talk:ansumang|<span title="Shoot!" style="cursor: crosshair;"><sup> ʈ ᶏ ɭ Ϟ</sup></span>]] 08:30, 2 July 2012 (UTC)<!--Template:Deletion sorting--></small>