Wikipedia talk:Arbitration Committee/Noticeboard

Statement regarding recent leaks from arbcom-l

Original announcement

So one sitting Arb inappropriately leaked information from a private mailing list and another sitting Arb was (apparently) sending inappropriate posts to a private mailing list. And now there's a statement in which neither is stepping down (or even apologizing)? Interesting. I wonder if either Arb has posted on this topic elsewhere.... --MZMcBride (talk) 05:33, 26 November 2012 (UTC)

I want to extend my thanks to the candidates who reported the mailing list disclosure to sitting arbitrators whom they considered trustworthy, and to the committee for settling on a version of this disclosure that is probably the least bad one possible under the circumstances. Jclemens (talk) 05:35, 26 November 2012 (UTC)

(ec)I also find this very interesting and I find that the inference that some of it was considered to be an attempt at intimidating other Arbs deeply troubling. Kumioko (talk) 05:37, 26 November 2012 (UTC)

Intimidation? Why, then, was I not censured at the time? All I did was state that the committee's failure to address Malleus Fatuorum's incivility towards committee members was likely to become a campaign issue in these elections. If stating an intention to use an open and public process to discuss differences in approach to handling incivility is intimidation, then I plead guilty as charged! The irony is, the actual issue has been obscured by these leaks. I can handle being wrong, or being outvoted, or being told that my conversation on the mailing list was no longer welcome... but when an intent to bring openness and sunlight into the process is misconstrued as intimidation, then there is something seriously wrong with the conversation. Jclemens (talk) 05:42, 26 November 2012 (UTC)

After you made that comment, both myself and another list administrator told you in no uncertain terms that the mailing list was not to be used for electioneering of any sort. It may not have been public, but it was a censure nonetheless. Hersfold ^(t/a/c) 05:47, 26 November 2012 (UTC)

Are you asserting that you as an individual, or acting with one single other arbitrator, 1) have the authority to censure another arbitrator? 2) That you did so? By all means, you expressed your disapproval, and that ended that line of discussion. To portray such as a censure is a gross mischaracterization of what actually happened. Jclemens (talk) 05:53, 26 November 2012 (UTC)

By definition, and I point you to our article on the subject, a censure is "an expression of strong disapproval or harsh criticism", so yes, any individual has the authority to censure anyone, and yes, I did. I think you're thinking more along the lines of what a censure means in a legislative body (e.g. US Senator Joseph McCarthy's censure in 1954, the most famous example I can think of). Hersfold ^(t/a/c) 06:01, 26 November 2012 (UTC)

You expressed disapproval, that's not in question. The committee took no formal action, in large part because I dropped that line of discussion per request. If any individual can censure any other individual, then I... no, that would be silly. You objected, I desisted, and then Elen took it upon herself, by her own admission, to share that email outside the committee. Jclemens (talk) 06:10, 26 November 2012 (UTC)

You implied that nobody took offense to your comment at the time. I was simply correcting you, not saying that something happened that didn't. I'm not going to engage in a wikilawyering battle with you. Hersfold ^(t/a/c) 06:25, 26 November 2012 (UTC)

No, I used a very specific word correctly, in its proper sense. I neither said nor implied that no one took offense to it: I said the committee took no action against me on the basis of what I wrote, which it did not. Jclemens (talk) 06:30, 26 November 2012 (UTC)

Your comment was a good deal more specific than your paraphrase here. And you were criticised for it within a very short time of your posting.  Roger Davies ^talk 05:50, 26 November 2012 (UTC)

And, Roger, does any of that excuse the disclosure? Jclemens (talk) 05:53, 26 November 2012 (UTC)

Facepalm --Rschen7754 05:58, 26 November 2012 (UTC)

Jon.. I hate to be incredibly banal as to have to result to it, but you know the phrase "Two Wrongs don't make a right?" SirFozzie (talk) 05:59, 26 November 2012 (UTC)

Then why, pray tell, has Elen not been removed from the committee after her admission, which by the committee's own statement did not happen in full until twelve days after the leaks came to the committee's attention? If my original statement was so egregious, why was nothing done about it at the time, other my being asked--and agreeing to--drop the line of discussion? Jclemens (talk) 06:06, 26 November 2012 (UTC)

Neither of you have been removed from the Committee, at least in part because of the policy for removal of arbitrators. It was not written in anticipation of a significant percentage of the Committee being candidates in an Arbcom election when considering the behaviour of two arbitrators who are candidates. The policy requires support from 10 arbitrators in order to remove someone (i.e., 2/3 of ALL arbitrators) and does not take into account inactivity nor permit recusal for any reason in calculating the required 2/3 majority. Risker (talk) 06:16, 26 November 2012 (UTC)

(ec with below) Your statement makes it sound like I've done something anywhere near in the same ballpark as violating confidentiality, Risker. I know you don't like my position on certain topics and didn't appreciate the original post I made, but to imply that I would be removed from the committee because another arbitrator leaked my email is inappropriate. Jclemens (talk) 06:23, 26 November 2012 (UTC)

You made use of the list to post information that clearly did not belong there. If you had posted the same thing to your userspace, I doubt anyone on the list would have batted an eye. I do not approve of abuse of the mailing list, whether it's breaking confidentiality or deliberately using it inappropriately. Risker (talk) 06:48, 26 November 2012 (UTC)

You think a courtesy notification that I wasn't happy with the outcome of a recent motion, and would likely be using it in public campaigning in the upcoming elections is such an egregious abuse of the mailing list that it's at all reasonable to equate that with an intentional breach of the list's confidentiality? Really, Risker? Really? Jclemens (talk) 06:57, 26 November 2012 (UTC)

As far as I can tell, nobody on the entire committee interpreted the second email as a courtesy notice, certainly not after the first one. Maybe you'd like to have more opinions on that. You still have the option of posting it publicly; it's your email so you can do so. Risker (talk) 07:00, 26 November 2012 (UTC)

Actually, that is rather curious - the recusal policy says that an arbitrator may recuse only in a "case, or from any aspect of a case"... technically it doesn't include any other motions. That's probably something we should fix at the start of next year... </off-topic> Hersfold ^(t/a/c) 06:21, 26 November 2012 (UTC)

Any vote to do so would be a symbolic one at best because it requires an absolute 2/3d's majority to suspend or expel someone from the Committee. Between inactive members, and those who are candidates in the upcoming election (who must recuse due to an inherent conflict of interest), any vote taken would fall short of the 2/3'ds necessary for the vote to pass. Something for the new Committee in the new year to look at (although making changes, even ones to clarify situations like this) requires a lengthy vote under similar terms.(or in short, what Risker said) SirFozzie (talk) 06:20, 26 November 2012 (UTC)

The two-thirds-of-arbitrators bar was deliberately set high to remove the possibility of a small group of people hijacking the process during periods of high absence/inactivity. While the two-thirds majority may be inconvenient in the present instance, it is an important safeguard that the community's electoral decisions are respected. I'd be very reluctant to tamper with it.  Roger Davies ^talk 06:38, 26 November 2012 (UTC)

I'd suggest building in one, and only one exception. Nominated candidates for an ongoing election may recuse and lower the super majority needed. SirFozzie (talk) 06:41, 26 November 2012 (UTC)

Will either arbitrator be allowed to continue as a functionary should they not win reelection? --Rschen7754 06:43, 26 November 2012 (UTC)

For most of the same reasons as above, such a matter will (if necessary) be heard by the new Committee. SirFozzie (talk) 06:53, 26 November 2012 (UTC)

Wording

"On polling the arbitrators, Elen..." Mildly confused — what's meant here? Did someone email all arbitrators and ask them questions? Did Elen ask questions of the other arbitrators? Something else that I've not thought of? Nyttend (talk) 05:51, 26 November 2012 (UTC)

• When the information came to us, we asked folks if they had disclosed any of this information to people outside the list. SirFozzie (talk) 05:53, 26 November 2012 (UTC)
  • Yes, the "polling" basically consisted of sending a "Ok, who leaked info?" email and waiting until everyone responded. We actually did this twice - the first time was on November 13th, when Elen admitted to sending a sentence or so to a non-arb; the second time, on November 19th, everyone denied sending anything. Only yesterday did Elen admit to leaking a full email back on the 13th, but still denied sending the anonymous Gmail message. Hersfold ^(t/a/c) 05:57, 26 November 2012 (UTC)

• • Wait, so information only seen by 14 (15 including the inactive Arb member) individuals was posted from an anonymous G-Mail account, and the consensus of these individuals upon polling is that no one did it? Regards, — Moe Epsilon 06:05, 26 November 2012 (UTC)
    • The obvious implication is that one or more of the original recipient(s) saw fit to distribute the message anonymously. Jclemens (talk) 06:07, 26 November 2012 (UTC)

• • • Hersfold: do you mean to imply that Elen did not respond in truth to the polling at any time? --Rschen7754 06:09, 26 November 2012 (UTC)
      • Some of the statements she has made on the matter are mutually exclusive, yes. Hersfold ^(t/a/c) 06:18, 26 November 2012 (UTC)

(From above) Moe: Here's the thing. The gmail did not have more then very basic information that would allow us to determine who had sent the email, and even the information that we DO is highly speculative at best. We can't "mousetrap" documents like you see in a Tom Clancy novel. Nor can we demand to gmail to tell us all the gmail accounts used by all the arbitrators, or any other such method to determine who sent it. we're not saying no one on the Committee sent it (although the most plausible explanation is just that, due to the circumstances of the issue), we are just saying we cannot DETERMINE if someone on the Committee leaked it. Rschen: The statement has the basic timeline down, as to what we were told and when. SirFozzie (talk) 06:11, 26 November 2012 (UTC)

I think that you give the email more credit than it's due. The only potentially useful information we got was a timestamp, which is essentially worthless. Hersfold ^(t/a/c) 06:18, 26 November 2012 (UTC)

Are the missing arbitrators "opposes" or "hadn't supported at the time the motion passed"? --Rschen7754 06:19, 26 November 2012 (UTC)

They had not voted at the time it was posted. Due to the unusual circumstances, with the election voting to open shortly, obviously time was a factor in getting a statement up before voting began. SirFozzie (talk) 06:21, 26 November 2012 (UTC)

Okay, thanks. --Rschen7754 06:22, 26 November 2012 (UTC)

Clarification questions

I have a couple questions about this, but I'm unsure of my footing here (since I'm in the AE). Am I (or any of the others) "allowed" to join in the discussion, or is there some etiquette that we should follow (I'm not talking about requirements, just what would be encouraged). (I go and make some food and come back to see this...) - jc37 06:34, 26 November 2012 (UTC)

We don't mind answering pertinent, honest questions to the best of our abilities, but please do realize that some information in this situation we cannot give, for reasons that should be obvious to all. If we can't say something, however, we will say that we can't say it. SirFozzie (talk) 06:35, 26 November 2012 (UTC)

Thank you for the clarification.

My first question is: you said that you received the text of the email, does that mean you do not know who actually received the email? For if you did, then that person could check the full message details to get info like IP address etc, I presume?

Also, my recollection was, in the past sitting members were sitting members regardless of whether they were running for election (I'm not saying I agree with that past choice, just that that is my recollection), so with that in mind, why are they auto recused this year? was it their personal choice? - jc37 06:43, 26 November 2012 (UTC)

Why were there only 11 arbs who signed (support + recused + inactive)? I think this is such an important incident everybody should have an opinion on? Were the others not available, or do they not support, or what?--Ymblanter (talk) 06:47, 26 November 2012 (UTC)

We were working on this most of the night (UTC). Three of those not voting were asleep when the time came to vote,  Roger Davies ^talk 06:55, 26 November 2012 (UTC)

In order: First question: While I'd prefer not to get into the technical ins and outs (due to WP:BEANS reasons, I can say that Gmail strips out most of the headers we would use to track such things. We received a full copy of the email from people who had received it, who contacted the Committee with their concerns. We do not know ALL the people who received the email, only the ones who told us (and sent us) the email they received.

Second question: Considering that they (like JClemens and Elen) are candidates in the election, one would conceivably call a conflict of interest on voting on statements that could have a very real effect on their fellow candidates chances for election (and thus, their own). They are still sitting arbitrators, and would still vote as normal on any Committee business that does not touch upon the election, or any other inherent conflicts of interest they may have. This may answer your question as well, Ymblanter. SirFozzie (talk) 06:52, 26 November 2012 (UTC)

Thanks, but my question was about those who did not vote at all. I perfectly understand why the current candidates opted to recuse.--Ymblanter (talk) 06:58, 26 November 2012 (UTC)

Oh, while I was writing this Roger already responded. Thanks.--Ymblanter (talk) 06:59, 26 November 2012 (UTC)

(e/c, just for the record) We were under severe time constraints with election voting opening shortly. We had hoped to have a resolution to this issue before now, however, outside influences did not allow that resolution to be made, so the Committee had to get something out and soon. Many of the non-recused arbitrators who have not voted were asleep during the debate and motion discussion. I would think they will vote when they see this. SirFozzie (talk) 07:03, 26 November 2012 (UTC)

COI, understood. But I wasn't asking "why". I'm asking a process question : )

Did each candidate recuse, or was it just presumed they would recuse, or did the non candidates just declare the candidates recused? I know this is a fine point, and there are other things you are busy with, but I think it's fairly important as it potentially affects recusal policy for arbs, I think. - jc37 07:05, 26 November 2012 (UTC)

Sitting arbitrator candidates were excluded entirely from the mailing list on which this was discussed. They didn't recuse as such because, in accordance with our standard operating procedure, they weren't given an opportunity to participate (or even view) the discussion.  Roger Davies ^talk 07:09, 26 November 2012 (UTC)

Thank you for the response.

SOP for what, exactly? email leaks? And is this SOP noted anywhere on this wiki? Or is this a "behind-the-scenes policy? and is this a new email list? or one just for during elections? or? - jc37 07:13, 26 November 2012 (UTC)

I think they're referring to the -b and -c lists referred to on WP:AC. --Rschen7754 07:16, 26 November 2012 (UTC)

For recused arbitrators. The Committee has alternate lists for use when multiple arbitrators are recused on a case. We held this discussion one one of these alternate lists. If say, there was a case where there was multiple recused arbs, we would move the discussion of that case (if any) to an alternate list as well. Basically, the main ArbCom list everyone on the Committee can see, the alternate lists are set up with only the non-recused arbitrators to be able to view, receive email, and post to the list). Or, exactly as Rschen said. SirFozzie (talk) 07:17, 26 November 2012 (UTC)

Ok, so one of the already existing ones. Just was curious.

From your comments, it really does sound like the non candidates decided to recuse the others, by fiat, by going to a different list. But maybe I'm misunderstanding. Like I said, this is a process question. And in many years of following things concerning arbcom, this is news to me. I remember reading during the last set of leaks, that at one point, User:Jimbo Wales was asked to be "on his honour" to not read certain emails (and Risker, as mail list admin, threatened to remove his access). And same with recused arbs. But in that case, they voluntarily recused. Part of this also comes to trust, when we the community choose an arbitrator to be on ARBCOM, we are trusting their judgement. And that includes trusting that they will recuse when appropriate. So I'm trying to understand what appears to me to be something new. - jc37 07:26, 26 November 2012 (UTC)

To the best of my recollection, no one took offense or objected to being removed from the C-list. Jclemens (talk) 07:36, 26 November 2012 (UTC)

(E/c x3) Hi JC: What happened, just to put your mind at ease, is that when we received information in this case that would present a conflict of interest for those involved as candidates in the election (as well as the parties themselves), I asked the list administrators to set up the C-list with the non-candidates. I then told the main arbitration committee list that I had set this up because we had received information that required review by non-candidates. None of the candidates raised any objection. Once the list had been modified properly, the information we received was posted to, and discussed on that list. SirFozzie (talk) 07:33, 26 November 2012 (UTC)

Thank you, that's exactly what I was asking : )

Now back to other parts of this mess (sigh). - jc37 07:37, 26 November 2012 (UTC)

Recipients?

Who were the recipients? Who did Elen leak the private emails to? Cla68 (talk) 07:01, 26 November 2012 (UTC)

(Obviously - since I'm asking questions - not me.) - jc37 07:06, 26 November 2012 (UTC)

I don't expect an answer, I'm just trying to make it obvious that there are some out there hiding their involvement in this from the community. They should come forward. Cla68 (talk) 07:11, 26 November 2012 (UTC)

• As full disclosure: I am one of the recipient of the forwarded (gmail) copy of Jclemens's original email on the list. Immediately upon receiving it, I caught an arbitrator not involved in the election (Courcelles) on IRC to inform him immediately of the possible leak from the list. After a brief exchange where we determined that the leak was genuine, I immediately sent him a copy of the email which he has shared with Risker.

  A few days layer, I received a request to forward the full email (including the mostly worthless headers from gmail) to the committee's mailing list. — Coren ^(talk) 07:27, 26 November 2012 (UTC)

• Thank you. Cla68 (talk) 07:31, 26 November 2012 (UTC)
  • Hum. Perhaps I should have immediately reread myself when I wrote that statement.  :-) In my defense, it's nearly 3am and I've been working hard fixing a nasty bug in a system scheduled to be put in production in about 5 hours – at this point, I'm running on caffeine fumes. — Coren ^(talk) 07:46, 26 November 2012 (UTC)

• Full disclosure here too, I may have been the editor Elen was referring to when she disclosed "1 or 2 sentences". I was aware that an arbitrator (I expected Jclemens) would be "actively campaigning" against those who did not vote to ban Malleus. I was not passed any full emails from any gmail accounts. Worm^TT(talk) 09:00, 26 November 2012 (UTC)

No Confidence

I am really disappointed to read the "press release" from arbcom regarding Elen leaking confidential email from a private arbcom mailing list. I have no confidence now in her ability to be trustworthy with private information. I would expect that arbitrators would sometimes have acrimonious emails sent amongst themselves as they work on a case, but to leak any of these discussions to persons not authorized to see them is unacceptable. I am deeply disappointed.MONGO 08:38, 26 November 2012 (UTC)

Removed

((Folks, I just removed a probably well intentioned "Motion" by an IP address user to "impeach" JClemens and Elen of the Roads. Just a reminder, the only way to remove a sitting arbitrator (other then a voluntary step down, is that two-thirds of the Arbitration Committee (including those inactive and recused) must vote to expel or suspend them, per Wikipedia:Arbitration/Policy#Conduct_of_arbitrators. However, both of their terms are expiring, and they are both currently standing for re-election. I would suggest any such efforts be concentrated there, and not in a symbolic method here -- SirFozzie (talk) 07:52, 26 November 2012 (UTC)))

This is Wikipedia's own Vatileaks scandal :) Jeff Kilmar 08:26, 26 November 2012 (UTC)

• I see that SirFozzie is trying to prove the Streisand Effect by removing my motion to remove these two arbs. As a result I can only suggest that an RfC/U be initiated against Elen, Jclemens, and ArbCom. There simply must be a way that the community can remove corrupt arbitrators. 24.61.9.111 (talk) 07:58, 26 November 2012 (UTC)

• Please don't confuse internal, political squabbling with corruption. Leaking private emails, however, may be a different story. Cla68 (talk) 08:00, 26 November 2012 (UTC)

Questions

In that statement you say "These posts were themselves considered by several arbitrators to be inappropriate and contentious, with some viewing them as attempts to intimidate sitting arbitrators from seeking re-election." Was this not considered inappropriate enough to communicate to the community at the time, or have you been deciding whether to say this since then? If it was not going to be released before the leak then why are you saying this particular sentence now - how has the leak changed the situation? And to Jclemens are you willing to release the e-mail you sent, to the community (hiding anything sensitive if necessary) so voters can make up their own minds on the appropriateness of the e-mail? (may ask this last question on the candidates question page later) Davewild (talk) 08:39, 26 November 2012 (UTC)

The message has been posted at User talk:Jclemens#The original email. Other than formatting, the only thing changed is that I've redacted my given name. Jclemens (talk) 08:41, 26 November 2012 (UTC)

Ah thanks. Davewild (talk) 08:43, 26 November 2012 (UTC)

Just to clarify, that is the second of the two messages involved. Risker (talk) 08:49, 26 November 2012 (UTC)

Did Jclemens send the emails in question while the committee was deliberating on the civility request for clarification or after it was closed? --Anthonyhcole (talk) 09:15, 26 November 2012 (UTC)

• After it was closed. The recent Civility Enforcement motion was enacted on 25 October, the emails were sent in November. Courcelles 09:19, 26 November 2012 (UTC)

Thanks. I can't see, then, how Jclemens's statements, as much as they are visible, can be read as bullying. It looks like politely giving notice. But obviously I'm not privy to the context or all the facts. This is a very difficult situation for a voter. I largely decide my preferences on my perception of the character of the individual candidates. I'd appreciate it if the sitting committee members would agree to release enough correspondence for electors such as me to make an informed decision. --Anthonyhcole (talk) 09:27, 26 November 2012 (UTC)

"only 11 arbs who signed"

The Committee has been heavily discussing the matter since we became aware of it. First on the full email list, then on a list restricted to those Committee members who were not candidates in the election. I have from the start been strongly in favour of releasing a statement to inform the community, giving as many facts as appropriate to allow an informed decision to be made in the election. There have been several versions of the statement, and it has been difficult to find as neutral a statement as possible which gives the facts without undue weight and also without inappropriately naming individuals. While I would have wanted to tweak this one a little (the "intimidation" interpretation is perhaps undue - though Jclemens's post was intended as a warning to other candidates; and there are other aspects of the post that might have been mentioned) it is a summary of the incident, and a statement needed to be given before voting opened. My last comment to the list before I logged off was: "We need to make a statement of facts, publish it on wiki, and let the community decide if they trust them enough for a second term. I'm now going to bed." My support for a statement was clear (and has been clear from the start). I was unable to vote on the final wording as the voting took place approximately between the hours (for me) of 3am and 5am when I was asleep. I'll take this opportunity to support the statement; and if it's felt needed, I'll sign the noticeboard - though it would be appropriate to show that my support is to the already published statement and that I was not part of the voting process that agreed the final wording. SilkTork ^{✔Tea time} 10:35, 26 November 2012 (UTC)

Whistleblowing

Tangential to the above discussion - I believe that the committee should look into a whistleblowing amendment to Arbitration policy. Assuming a matter where an arbitrator is acting in a dishonest manner (something that does appear to have happened on the committee in the past), and the committee is unable to handle it with satisfaction - I do believe arbitrators are morally obligated to take this information outside the committee, to reduce corruption within the committee. Worm^TT(talk) 09:24, 26 November 2012 (UTC)