Talk:Xianbei: Difference between revisions
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*'''Support''' - per sources, and we should scrutinize _all_ of this user's specious, undiscussed moves.--[[User:Kintetsubuffalo|Kintetsubuffalo]] ([[User talk:Kintetsubuffalo|talk]]) 09:33, 3 January 2014 (UTC) |
*'''Support''' - per sources, and we should scrutinize _all_ of this user's specious, undiscussed moves.--[[User:Kintetsubuffalo|Kintetsubuffalo]] ([[User talk:Kintetsubuffalo|talk]]) 09:33, 3 January 2014 (UTC) |
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*'''Support''' The article does not even mention the term. Can we move now pls? --[[User:Florian Blaschke|Florian Blaschke]] ([[User talk:Florian Blaschke|talk]]) 22:13, 4 January 2014 (UTC) |
*'''Support''' The article does not even mention the term. Can we move now pls? --[[User:Florian Blaschke|Florian Blaschke]] ([[User talk:Florian Blaschke|talk]]) 22:13, 4 January 2014 (UTC) |
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'''Discussion''' At least we must keep Mongol and Tibetan names in heading section: [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Sumbe_people&diff=588700668&oldid=588397113] |
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[http://www.e-mongol.com/mongolia_history.htm e-mongol.com]: 156 AD Xianbei (Sumbe) defeat Hunnu state and became most powerful in Central Asia. [http://www.intourtrade.mn/about-mongolia/brief-history/ Mongolian website]: |
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Rise and fall of '''Sumbe State''': |
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The first state to emerge after the Huns was of the Sumbe, a Mongolian tribe who probably came from the eastern Gobi. The Sumbe State grew powerful and conquered northern China. |
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'''Nirun State''' and Tureg State: |
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Later, control of the Toba State passed to yet another Mongolian clan, the Nirun. The fate of the Nirun State was rather different. |
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Uigur State and '''Kidan State''': |
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Control passed to the Uigur tribe, and the Uigur State became the most powerful in Central Asia, but did not control all of Mongolia. |
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[http://www.birding.mos.mn/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=5:brief-history-of-mongolia&catid=2:about-the-country&Itemid=7]: The first domination state after the Hun’s collapse was the '''Sumbe State,''' which lasted until the 3rd century BC. The Toba finally took over the Sumbe state inn 250 AD and established its own state with a number of tribal allies. In turn the Tobas were defeated by the '''Nirun''', who were forced to hand the state over to Turkic tribes who established the Tuger Kingdom on Mongolia in 552 AD. [[User:Sczc|Sczc]] ([[User talk:Sczc|talk]]) 06:39, 6 January 2014 (UTC) |
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Revision as of 06:39, 6 January 2014
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History of Manchuria
Changes were made to the Template:History_of_Manchuria to reflect actual Manchuria history. The changes were major. Please access the new changes and determine accordingly the relevence to this page.
Wiki Pokemon 02:12, 21 June 2007 (UTC)
On WP:NCGN and "Manchuria"
Please refer to Template talk:History of Manchuria for relevant discussions and consensus. Cydevil38 12:05, 30 July 2007 (UTC)
Part of Chinese culture?
"They first became a significant part of Chinese culture during the Han Dynasty, where they occupied the steppes in Mongolia, Hebei and Liaodong."
Is there any logical connectin between the two parts of this sentence?
What's the purpose of the statement saying the "Xianbei became part of Chinese culture". Very unclear. What do you want to imply with that? Gantuya eng (talk) 05:26, 18 November 2007 (UTC)
- The "Han Dynasty" qualifier is necessary because it needs to be known when it was that they were in what is now Mongolia, Hebei, and Liaodong. Certainly they don't occupy Mongolia, Hebei, and Liaodong now. If you think they don't connect well, separate them. Taking out the information that they first came onto the scene in Chinese history during Han Dynasty takes out the timeframe context and makes the several sentences untethered, time-wise. --Nlu (talk) 07:44, 18 November 2007 (UTC)
- No, you aren't answering my question at all. And why do you revert when the sicussion isn't over? Gantuya eng (talk) 08:18, 18 November 2007 (UTC)
I fail to see how I failed to answer your question, and I am reverting because your removal of pertinent information is bordering on vandalism. --Nlu (talk) 08:19, 18 November 2007 (UTC)
- Please don't use personal attack. Don't be rude!!! I don't understand how pertinent it is. Why are you soooo rude? Please don't insult me calling me a "vandal" instead of enlightening me. You are engaged in an edit war , by the way. Be civil. If you can't discuss an issue peacefully, I'm not gonna waste my time with you. Unwatching the page. Gantuya eng (talk) 08:29, 18 November 2007 (UTC)
I don't appreciate it when I directly answered your question and then was told that I didn't answer it. --Nlu (talk) 08:43, 18 November 2007 (UTC)
Anonymous users' edits
There has been two anonymous user(s) (first 58.106.230.131, and now 81.214.153.182) who added an online Britannica article's link [1] to this article. In my opinion, this Britannica link is not a credible nor factual source for this article because: 1) it suggested that the tuoba clan of Xianbei was "Turkish speaking" (not "Turkic speaking" in which the anonymous users twisted the words around), which of course was not possible given the timeline and circumstance of linguistic history, and the fact that we know "Turkish" does not correlates to "Turkic" (i.e. German does not correlates to Germanic). 2) More importantly, this Britannica article is also contradictory to another online Britannica article [2] about the Xianbei in which it suggested that they were Mongol people instead.
Note the two articles from the same Encyclopedia Britannica offers two different views on this ethnic group. That is why these two sources from online Britannica are too contradictory and inconsistent to be used.--TheLeopard (talk) 21:10, 7 July 2008 (UTC)
If we're looking at several other academic sources, the cultural institution Metropolitan Museum of Art suggested that the Tuoba clan of the Xianbei were proto-Mongol people [3]. While the Library of Congress suggested that the Toba clan of Xianbei belongs to the Donghu ethnic group, which were proto-Tungusic peoples [4].--TheLeopard (talk) 21:10, 7 July 2008 (UTC)
- The Library of Congress is a questionable source on subjects related to the far east in general. I have run into conflicts when people copy/use from that source in particular. Benjwong (talk) 04:53, 9 July 2008 (UTC)
- The same could be said for every sources, even the most notable and commonly used academic references, considering the Library of Congress is among the world's most prominent and well-established research centers.--TheLeopard (talk) 01:14, 10 July 2008 (UTC)
- In the past I have been skeptical on that source when others have used it on China related articles. But I understand what you mean. Benjwong (talk) 02:33, 10 July 2008 (UTC)
More Anonymous users' edit
An anonymous editor 70.107.79.101 has added back a link to an article that has no relation to the current article. The battle which happened in the Xiongnu era isn't relevant to the Xianbei in any way. I have to remove that link. Sorry. Gantuya eng (talk) 00:56, 23 December 2008 (UTC)
- I think in that particular case, I agree with you, but a blanket statement that "happened in the Xiongnu era isn't relevant to the Xianbei in any way" (assume you are intending for it to be a blanket statement, rather than only to that battle) is inaccurate, because the Xiongnu and the Xianbei coexisted in the same geographic region for hundreds of years. --Nlu (talk) 05:08, 23 December 2008 (UTC)
Added Tibetan name "Sumbe" , it might be more close to real name of Xianbei
From tibetan historian books found another version of the name "Xianbei".The meaning of the word "Sumbe" might be "sumber" because we use word "sumber uul" ( high mountain).Chinese sources says, after Modu chanyu's attack some Donghu people moved to Southern Mongolian Xianbei mountain and the mountain's name became these Donghu's name. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 180.235.172.69 (talk) 10:36, 22 April 2013 (UTC)
- That reconstruction / theory should belong in an etymology section, definitely not as an alternative name in the lead, since it's not used at all. --Cold Season (talk) 19:46, 1 January 2014 (UTC)
The Xianbei claimed to be descended from the Yellow Emperor
The Xianbei claimed to be related to the Chinese through descent by the Yellow Emperor
page 75
Because his forces were victorious in this battle, the Yellow Emperor's clan came to be known by the surname of "Bear" (Youxiongshi). The Weishu also states that the Xianbei were descended from one of the sons of the Yellow Emperor, ...
page 279
They have a fanciful history complete with legends claiming the Yellow Emperor as one of their ancestors.2 Although much of Xianbei culture is similar to that of the Xiongnu, there are distinct differences.' Xianbei burials commonly contain a ...
page 4
The Taba Xianbei, however, disliked the idea that they were mixed blood of the Han and Xiongnu. Instead, they traced their ancestry to the Chinese legendary Yellow Emperor (Huangdi H^?, the symbol of "earth" of the Five Elements) in order ...
03:31, 18 August 2013 (UTC)
Added Xianbei words
G.Sukhbaatar was sinologist of Mongolia and he restored some Xianbei words (G.Sukhbaatar, Mongolian history sourcebooks, Volume I, 1991).
- chjichjen (Chinese pronunciation) — Mongolian: tsetsen (wise)
- bidechjen — Mongolian: bicheech (typist)
- chjeguichjen — Middle Mongolian: juuchin Modern Mongolian: zuuchin (letter carrier)
- fuchjen — Middle Mongolian: buurchin. This word used in Secret History of the Mongols. (cook)
- fuchjuchjeni — Mongolian: örtööchin (relay stationist): Ortoo
- hulochjen — Mongolian: horchin (weapon keeper/carrier)
- kebochjen — Mongolian: haalgachin (doorkeeper)
- pudachjien — Mongolian: bogtagchin (woman who keeps noble's clothes)
- syanchjen — Mongolian: zamchin (guide, middleman)
- tsihaichjen— Mongolian: gesgeegchin (executioner)
- tsivanchjen — Mongolian: helmerch (translator)
- uaichjen — Mongoian: üizen (title of clerk/noble)
- yanchjen — Mongolian: yamutan Modern Mongolian: yazguurtan (noble) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Cethe (talk • contribs) 04:52, 6 December 2013 (UTC)
Requested move
 | The request to rename this article to Xianbei has been carried out.
If the page title has consensus, be sure to close this discussion using {{subst:RM top|'''page moved'''.}} and {{subst:RM bottom}} and remove the {{Requested move/dated|…}} tag, or replace it with the {{subst:Requested move/end|…}} tag. |
Sumbe people → Xianbei – Recently a new user (User:Sczc) had suddenly moved this article from Xianbei to Sumbe people without any discussion. The new name does not meet Wikipedia:COMMONNAME in any shape or form. A search on Google Books [5] and Google Scholar [6] shows that the name "Sumbe people" or "Sumbe" yields few searches, and almost none of the results are related to this article (about an ancient group of people). The article needs to be move back to Xianbei, which is the most common name for this group. TheLeopard (talk) 07:43, 1 January 2014 (UTC)
- Support - Common name for this topic in English appears to be Xianbei. That the sources use this name should be a good clue. - Metal lunchbox (talk) 10:38, 1 January 2014 (UTC)
- Support. I've never even seen its use, while "Xianbei" is clearly the common name. It was ridiculous move from the user. --Cold Season (talk) 19:33, 1 January 2014 (UTC)
- Support - per sources and WP:BRD, this should/could be a technical move. In ictu oculi (talk) 02:35, 2 January 2014 (UTC)
- Support - per sources, and we should scrutinize _all_ of this user's specious, undiscussed moves.--Kintetsubuffalo (talk) 09:33, 3 January 2014 (UTC)
- Support The article does not even mention the term. Can we move now pls? --Florian Blaschke (talk) 22:13, 4 January 2014 (UTC)
Discussion At least we must keep Mongol and Tibetan names in heading section: [7] e-mongol.com: 156 AD Xianbei (Sumbe) defeat Hunnu state and became most powerful in Central Asia. Mongolian website: Rise and fall of Sumbe State: The first state to emerge after the Huns was of the Sumbe, a Mongolian tribe who probably came from the eastern Gobi. The Sumbe State grew powerful and conquered northern China.
Nirun State and Tureg State: Later, control of the Toba State passed to yet another Mongolian clan, the Nirun. The fate of the Nirun State was rather different.
Uigur State and Kidan State: Control passed to the Uigur tribe, and the Uigur State became the most powerful in Central Asia, but did not control all of Mongolia.
[8]: The first domination state after the Hun’s collapse was the Sumbe State, which lasted until the 3rd century BC. The Toba finally took over the Sumbe state inn 250 AD and established its own state with a number of tribal allies. In turn the Tobas were defeated by the Nirun, who were forced to hand the state over to Turkic tribes who established the Tuger Kingdom on Mongolia in 552 AD. Sczc (talk) 06:39, 6 January 2014 (UTC)
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