Wikipedia:Featured list candidates/John Gielgud, roles and awards/archive1

John Gielgud, roles and awards

John Gielgud, roles and awards (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)

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Nominator(s): SchroCat (talk) 15:25, 5 March 2014 (UTC)

John Gielgud was a prodigious actor whose career ran from 1921 to 2000. He appeared in a huge number of films, stage shows, television dramas and radio plays. As one of the foremost actors of the 20th century awards and honours were heaped upon him (although he was always rather indifferent to such presentations). – SchroCat (talk) 15:25, 5 March 2014 (UTC)

Comments – A prodigious achievement. I watched with admiration the growth of this page from scratch to its present magnificent fulness. I shall, of course, be supporting its promotion with the utmost enthusiasm, but before I do so I must take a few days to crawl over the page with critical eye. A few things occur to me immediately:

• Lead
  • I find "Sir John Gielgud" much easier on the eye than "Sir John Gielgud" and would pipe accordingly in the opening line. A matter of taste, I concede.
    • No, I agree! Tweaked appropriately. - SchroCat (talk) 22:01, 5 March 2014 (UTC)
• Stage roles
  • The Vortex – Surely both mentions should be just "Nicky Lancaster" rather than "Nicky Lancaster and Nicky"?
    • Saw I missed one - many thanks! - SchroCat (talk) 22:34, 5 March 2014 (UTC)
  • Her Majesty's Theatre – you should pipe to [[Her Majesty's Theatre|His Majesty's Theatre]] for all appearances before February 1952, as the theatre changes its name to match the sex of the reigning monarch.
    • Both done. - SchroCat (talk) 22:01, 5 March 2014 (UTC)

• Film roles
  • Someone has just today rightly amended the biographical article John Gielgud (soon to appear at peer review) to add mention of a silent role, recorded on JG's 96th birthday, in David Mamet's film of Samuel Beckett's short play Catastrophe (see Morley (2001), p. 452).
    • Already on there (thankfully!) - SchroCat (talk) 22:01, 5 March 2014 (UTC)

More to come. Looking forward more than I can say to combing through this masterly compilation. Tim riley (talk) 21:25, 5 March 2014 (UTC)

• Deirdre of the Sorrows, October 1924: I think Naise should be Naoise. See here.
• The High Constable's Wife, June 1925: Might give Julien de Boys-Bourredon his full forename
• Gloriana, December 1925: Harrington, not Harringdon, according to Croall (2000, p. 535) and Morley, p. 53 (though not p. 461, I notice).
• The Seagull, January 1929: Constantin this time, but he was Konstantin in October 1925. I prefer Constantin (but then I prefer Tusenbach to Tuzenbach, so what do I know?)
• April 1930: Here's a mystery: Croall (2000, p. 536) lists another play and role between The Man with a Flower in his Mouth and Hamlet, namely Mr Hughes in The Rehearsal (by Anouilh). Neither the play nor the role is mentioned in Croall's main text, nor can I find mention of it in the archives of The Times, Manchester Guardian or Observer. Morley doesn't mention it, and neither does Gielgud. It would be injudicious to add it to the main table, but I wonder if a footnote might be in order.
• Fumed Oak, July 1940: Henry Gow, not Henry Crow. Morley is in error. Croall correctly gives "Gow", which I have also confirmed from the published text of the play.
• ENSA tour review, December 1942: I think this should read "revue" rather than "review"
• The Circle, September 1944 and October 1944: Might give Arnold Champion-Cheney his full forename.
• Richard II, July 1953: The venue was the Royal, Bulawayo, according to Croall (p. 537)
• The Cherry Orchard, December 1961: Another odd-looking transliteration. I have only ever seen the character's name given as Gaev.
• Oedipus Rex, January 1967: Two points here. The link should be to Stravinsky's opera, and the Festival Hall performance (conducted by Solti) was on 16 March 1967.(Sadie, Stanley. "Vigorous Stravinsky", The Times, 17 March 1967, p. 12) There was no performance of the work there in January '67.
• The Best of Friends, January 1988: "Voice only" is miles wide of the mark. JG played Sir Sydney Cockerell and was very much there on the stage before the audience's eyes. The theatre was the Apollo, not the Royalty. Checking in Morley I see what's gone awry here: the neighbouring entries for The Best of Friends and A Tale of Two Cities have got themselves conflated.
• I have corrected "Lyttleton" to "Lyttelton" (No Man's Land, April 1976). You have incurred a three-match suspension from Mornington Crescent.

• I was just in mid-move from Morden to Aldwych too! - SchroCat (talk) 10:01, 7 March 2014 (UTC)

That's all from me on the stage roles. I'll be back if I have any comments on the other tables, other than sheer wonderment. Tim riley (talk) 12:14, 6 March 2014 (UTC)

Television

• A Day by the Sea was shown on ITV on 31 March 1959. JG played the role of Julian Anson, as in the 1953 stage production. ("Concentration of Talents", The Times, 1 April 1959, p. 5)
• "Play for Today" – Home, was on BBC1. ("Broadcasting", The Times, 6 January 1972, p. 19)
• Brideshead Revisited – JG as Mr Ryder was only in the first two episodes, so the dates don't tally. Episode 1 went out on 12 October, and Episode 2 eight days later.(Davalle, Peter. "Television: BBC's Borgias v ITV's Waugh", The Times, 9 October 1981, p. XVI)
• The Tichborne Claimant – something's gone adrift with the date. The BFI says it was made in 1997 and released in 1998.

More to come. Tim riley (talk) 13:19, 6 March 2014 (UTC)

• All done (apart from the BR bits!) Many thanks for all your work on this! - SchroCat (talk) 21:30, 6 March 2014 (UTC)
  • I withdraw my comments on Brideshead (though I may return to the fray later, as mentioned by email) but I have a residual quibble, viz that in fixing The Best of Friends you have lost A Tale of Two Cities, which Morley lists, though Croall doesn't. Tim riley (talk) 22:10, 6 March 2014 (UTC)

Films

• Assignment to Kill, 1967 – Curt, not Kurt Valayan, according to Croall and the BFI
• Galileo (1974 film) – I imagine the lack of piping is a simple oversight
• 1974 – Croall (p. 541) lists also Frankenstein: The True Story. The BFI confirms this, though gives the year as 1973.

• Listed in the Television section (first shown in the US in November '73). - SchroCat (talk) 10:01, 7 March 2014 (UTC)

• Aces High, 1976 – If we're being really pernickety, the scene is set at Eton, where they call the boss man the Head Master (two words). I suppose you have to follow the cast list, though.
• Murder by Decree, 1978 – not sure we need Salisbury's job title: Disraeli, earlier in the list, manages very well without it.
• 1983 – Need to add Tony Palmer's Wagner. It has been edited in various versions, including a television mini-series, I believe, but it had a cinema release in December 1983. It is notable as the only film in which Gielgud, Olivier and Richardson played scenes together. They played three courtiers bitching about Ludwig II. JG's character was called Pfistermeister.

And that really is all from me. Superb achievement on your part. I look forward to adding my support on my next visit to this page. Tim riley (talk) 09:38, 7 March 2014 (UTC)

• All covered (I hope!) Many thanks for your very complete review: much appreciated! - SchroCat (talk) 10:01, 7 March 2014 (UTC)

Support – This page wholly meets the Featured List criteria for Prose, Lead, Structure Style and Stability, and as for Comprehensiveness, I can find nothing on the web that comes anywhere near it. It is more accurate and complete than the comparable lists in the authorised biography and other books. An achievement of which the nominator, and Wikipedia, should be very proud. – Tim riley (talk) 10:16, 7 March 2014 (UTC)

• Many thanks! Much appreciated, as always. - SchroCat (talk) 21:36, 11 March 2014 (UTC)

Comments from Cass

• "He continued working on stage until 1990. Gielgud was also active as a director, sometimes while also acting in the play." →"He continued working on the stage until 1990 both as a director and actor." My only thinking around this is in its current form is that ending with "while also acting in the play" leaves us asking "what play"?
• It's a shame that the lead image has the writing at the bottom of it. I find it a little distracting actually.
• "Gielgud is one of the few who have won all four major annual American entertainment awards" -- One of the few what? Actors? directors? males? persons?

• Many thanks! 1 and 3 are both done: I'll have a mull over the image question - I'll either swap it with something, or see if I can doctor the text out somehow... - SchroCat (talk) 17:43, 7 March 2014 (UTC)
  • If you want to tinker with the image, Loeba and Crisco 1492 are the people to go to. They keep a team of image gnomes (in humane, free-range conditions) and can conjure wonderful things out of them. Though I can't say the lettering bothers me. Tim riley (talk) 17:28, 8 March 2014 (UTC)
    • I went for the cropped version: it shrinks the overall image slightly, making it less of a portrait style, but still just about within the bounds of acceptability. - SchroCat (talk) 21:02, 10 March 2014 (UTC)

• Support – Another cracking list, congratulations! Cassianto^talk 18:37, 7 March 2014 (UTC)

• Many thanks! Much appreciated, as always. - SchroCat (talk) 21:36, 11 March 2014 (UTC)

• Comment The title seems very ungrammatical to me; is there any precedent for that format? I would much prefer something like "Roles and awards of John Gielgud" or "List of John Gielgud roles and awards". Reywas92^Talk 02:47, 10 March 2014 (UTC)

• I think that grammatically the title is fine. The two suggestions you have made are not, at least in formal, encyclopaedic English: "Roles and awards of John Gielgud" is missing the definite article and should be "The roles and awards of John Gielgud". As our MoS eschews the use of the definite article in such a format, it makes sure the title fails a basic Engvar hurdle. Your second suggestion: "List of John Gielgud roles and awards" whould at least be "List of John Gielgud's roles and awards" to pass muster: of the two, I think the current form is better. There is precedent for this, not least in Ralph Richardson, roles and awards and Ian McKellen, roles and awards. - SchroCat (talk) 08:40, 10 March 2014 (UTC)

• Support - Coming late to the party as I am, and not being as conversant as some of the other commenters on the details in the list, I'll only comment on the format and layout. Very well done. Tim riley nailed it on the head. Very well organized, very well laid out, my only negative is you might add a photo or graphic to reduce the white space. I was attempting to look at it as someone who had no knowledge of this performer, and was looking to do a spot of research; as such, very easy to navigate. Onel5969 (talk) 02:30, 11 March 2014 (UTC)

• Many thanks Onel5969. I'll have a hunt round and see what other images I can drop in to smooth over the white space: with the length of some of the tables it is unavoidable to some extent, but I'll see what I can do. - SchroCat (talk) 21:36, 11 March 2014 (UTC)

• Comment - a few minor quibbles before I support. The title bothers me as well, but I realize now what the problem is- if it was just awards, it would traditionally be "List of awards received by John Gielgud", and for roles, if he was just a movie star it would traditionally be "John Gielgud filmography", but there isn't an equivalent word for performing arts roles in general (List of performances by?) and it wouldn't fit the "received by" format in any case. Condensed comma wins the day, it seems- "List of awards received, and performances by, John Gielgud" is just awful, no matter how you rearrange it.

• "Gielgud is one of the few people who have won all four major annual American entertainment awards, being an Oscar[...] an Emmy,[...] a Grammy[...] and Tony Awards" - "being" is a really awkward construction- I'd rather see "namely" or "those being", as otherwise the subject is unclear.
• "Murder on the Orient Express 1975" - comma
• "CBS, (USA)" Dupont Show, TV - no comma
• "The South Bank Show: Laurence Olivier – A Life" - quotes
• Link Why Didn't They Ask Evans?
• In awards, you have one row with "for Outstanding Lead Actor in a Miniseries or Movie" (Emmy) and one with "Outstanding Lead Actor in a miniseries or Special" (Emmy) - they should be the same style
• Notes is cutting off the first note weirdly between columns at several different screen resolutions- can you adjust it to two columns instead?
• --PresN 21:14, 12 March 2014 (UTC)