Talk:Judaism in Nepal

RfC: Should we change article name to 'Judaism in Nepal'?

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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During the recent deletion discussion, many expressed discontent with the current title, including people arguing for deletion as well as people arguing for inclusion, specifically that the word 'history' was misleading in this case, that the article was more about Jews and Israelis in Nepal, and not about the history of the Jews in that land, which -- I think most agreed -- is unsubstantial, and limited to the past few decades. I think there is agreement that there is not a strong permanent presence of Jews in Nepal, although a strong tourist population as well as Jewish outreach organizations such as Chabad. It is likely that the term 'history' caused the deletion discussion to begin in the first place. User @Nyttend: proposed renaming or moving the article to Judaism in Nepal which seems, in my view, to accurately and succinctly describe the article. The question, then: should we change the article name to 'Judaism in Nepal'?--Tomwsulcer (talk) 12:30, 30 June 2014 (UTC)

• Comment by Ravpapa: Here is a suggestion. First of all, let's be honest about this article. It is not about the history of Jews in Nepal. It is about Chabad House in Kathmandu. Everything else in the article is just there to justify the discussion of Chabad House. Now Chabad House in Kathmandu is notable, at least marginally. Aside from the big seder they hold every year, they get in the news now and again (see, for example, http://forward.com/articles/185760/nepal-chabad-rabbi-prevents-cremation-of-jewish-ac/), and even had an Israeli TV series produced about them (http://www.mouse.co.il/CM.television_articles_item,790,209,68121,.aspx).

What we (you, actually - I am here only as an etses gibber) should do is to rename the article "Chabad House of Nepal", get rid of all the extraneous claptrap, fill out the article with other information about the activities there, add a picture. There will no doubt be those who will renominate the new article for deletion, but I believe you will survive, because Chabad House of Kathmandu has indeed achieved a certain amount of notability and is worth an article. --Ravpapa (talk) 05:50, 1 July 2014 (UTC)

Disagree. Chabad is only mentioned in perhaps a fifth of the text; it should not be over-emphasized.--Tomwsulcer (talk) 12:17, 1 July 2014 (UTC)

• Comment by Ubikwit There would seem to be a problem with "Judaism in Nepal" in that there wasn't even mention of a single synagogue in the country, and the only Jewish residents are connected with the embassy or Chabad. Ravpapa's suggestion might be viable. Alternatively, the merge suggested during the deletion discussion appeared to be the most reasonable approach. The scope of Judiasm in Nepal would seem to be limited to the ceremony held for travelers once a year.--Ubikwit ^連絡 _{見学/迷惑} 11:21, 1 July 2014 (UTC)

The consensus was to keep the article, not to merge it into another article; I doubt Jewish and Israeli travelers only visit once a year, particularly if about 1500 attend the seder, but the actual total of travelers is about 20,000/year; it has to be year-round.--Tomwsulcer (talk) 12:17, 1 July 2014 (UTC)

That doesn't respond to the points I raised about "Judaism" as a religion being practiced in Nepal. I would assume that since the Chabad organization is a religious organization there may be rabbis at their location, but aside from the "seder", which I gather is conducted by Chabad, it doesn't seem that there are enough people practicing Judaism in Nepal for a Wikipedia article, again, based on the notability criteria.--Ubikwit ^連絡 _{見学/迷惑} 12:32, 1 July 2014 (UTC)

• Oppose and keep current title of History of the Jews in Nepal because: 1 that is the standard way all Jewish history in countries is used on WP. This article is no different to all the other articles in Category:Jewish history by country. And because 2 anything to do with the secularly Jewish state Israel is not in any way "religious" or involves Judaism. And, 3 tourism, the involvement of Israeli colleges and Israeli mountain climbers, and diplomatic relations have nothing to do with Judaism as such. 4 The WP:CONSENSUS reached, after much vigorous and serious debate at the recent AfD Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/History of the Jews in Nepal should be respected, so as not to infringe on WP:NOTBATTLEGROUND, as this article has received enough attention at the present time and should either be improved or left alone for now. Thank you, IZAK (talk) 11:49, 1 July 2014 (UTC)

I disagree. About your point #1 -- That this article should have the word history in it simply because other articles have the word history in it should have no bearing in this case, simply because, and I think the point was made repeatedly in the deletion discussion, that there is not much history of Jews in Nepal for the past millenia, that it is only in the past few decades that Jews and Israelis have come to Nepal in significant numbers as tourists. About your point #2 -- look at your own words secularly Jewish state Israel -- see the problem -- you referred to Israel as a Jewish state which it is, that is, meaning that it is impossible to unbind the religious aspects from the national aspects in this context. About point #3 -- of course actions by the Israeli government such as issuing joint postage stamps with Nepal, have an impact, since they are public relations gestures to encourage friendly relations between the two countries, why, to make it safer for their citizens (mostly Jews) to travel to Nepal, and Nepal wants the benefit too. About point #4 -- there was a consensus reached to keep the article but there were numerous voices commenting on the title, many persons asking that it be renamed, with the specific problem being the word history. Overall, the idea behind renaming the article is to more closely describe to readers what the article is about; it is not really about the history of the Jews in Nepal, since there is not much of that, but rather Jews, Judaism, etc in Nepal -- that is what the article is about. It should not be focused on Chabad exclusively, either. Btw, Ubikwit, I am not a Jew but am an active and devout believer in a higher religion.--Tomwsulcer (talk) 12:17, 1 July 2014 (UTC)

Tomwsulcer: From your comments above, it seems that you lack an understanding of the difference between Jewish history, the History of Israel, and what Judaism really is. Read up on all three, and then read up on the difference between Jews as an Ethnic group versus Judaism as a Religion, they are not always the same, since many Jews can be atheists and secular (like many Israelis are!) but they are ethnically Jewish, while there can be people who are not ethnically Jewish but they convert or adhere to Judaism, and then try to understand the differences before you dive into these complex topics. Thanks, IZAK (talk) 12:45, 1 July 2014 (UTC)

• Oppose and keep current title of History of the Jews in Nepal - there was a recent vote to Keep the article as is - why this subject is raised again? --Yoavd (talk) 12:23, 1 July 2014 (UTC)
• Support. I appreciate the scheme set forth of History of Jews in ....., but under the given circumstanced in which nothing in the article can fairly be described as "history" the more appropriate name should be Judaism in Nepal. --brewcrewer (yada, yada) 14:58, 3 July 2014 (UTC)

In light of the addition of the material related to Shavei Israel centers in Nepal, there would seem to be a bit more of a basis for renaming the article to Judaism in Nepal.

This RfC has been superseded by DRV discussion, though.--Ubikwit ^連絡 _{見学/迷惑} 15:28, 3 July 2014 (UTC)

Umm FYI, the all-inclusive name for "Jews in Nepal", "Judaism in Nepal", "Israelis in Nepal", "Jewish organizations in Nepal", "Jews who visited Nepal", "Jews who lived in Nepal", "Jewish scholars and Nepal" etc is the current correct title of History of the Jews in Nepal, that's how it's done, no need to swing from idea to idea every time a new bit of info pops up. IZAK (talk) 10:40, 4 July 2014 (UTC)

• Support. The other option is Jews in Nepal, which might work better considering that the Jewish population (aside from the Chabad House staff) is transient. This would also help clean up the lead, which seems to be defending the current title in a rather convoluted way. Yoninah (talk) 12:46, 8 July 2014 (UTC)
• Support. The article, as kept, would be more appropriately named "Judaism in Nepal". Fylbecatulous talk 13:16, 8 July 2014 (UTC)
• Comment. I have started a more general discussion on this topic at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Judaism#History of the Jews in X articles, and all here are invited to chime in.--Pharos (talk) 19:06, 8 July 2014 (UTC)
• Change it. As was made clear in the AfD (and the DRV, listed below, has some additional endorsements), there is no history of the Jews in Nepal. It's even doubtful that there is "Judaism in Nepal". I'll settle for "Jews in Nepal", with "Jews in" here meaning something like "some individual events that aren't worth noting, really, connected (tangentially or not) with Jews and with ___". What we really need is another AfD, of course. Oh, someone pointed out that "this is totally like the other articles on "History of the Jews in Country X." It's not. One doesn't need to be all that smart to see that. Drmies (talk) 01:46, 9 August 2014 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

DRV

There is now an official WP:Deletion review, see Wikipedia:Deletion review/Log/2014 June 30#History of the Jews in Nepal. Thanks, IZAK (talk) 13:27, 1 July 2014 (UTC)

Haven't included

I haven't included Olga Murray and her Nepal Youth Foundation. It looks like an important and valuable charity, and the founder is of Jewish background, but the connection is perhaps not strong enough.--Pharos (talk) 23:42, 2 July 2014 (UTC)

WP:NOTNEWS

A lot of the recently added material has nothing to do with history, and is more WP:RECENTISM and news articles. The entire History_of_the_Jews_in_Nepal#Security_issues section for example.--Ubikwit ^連絡 _{見学/迷惑} 09:34, 3 July 2014 (UTC)

• Ubikwit: It is not meant as "news" it is about an important historical phenomenon i.e. the impact of Islamic terrorism that is very WP:NOTABLE and part of the history narrative. In the context of the article it is perfectly acceptable as one ongoing continuum. Kindly refrain from narrow POV WP:IDONTLIKEIT responses. Thank you, IZAK (talk) 12:51, 3 July 2014 (UTC)

Spikenard

As per comment on Spikenard talk page[1], Old Testament and New Testament differ with respect to plant, so how this should be characterized or what the relevance is to this article is questionable considering that the individual mentioned is 11th century (which is after the Radhanite era).
"Karim" are described as being mentioned in Islamic sources, and not as "Jewish".--Ubikwit ^連絡 _{見学/迷惑} 07:03, 5 July 2014 (UTC)

The cited sources actually distinguish the Jewish "Karim" system in Egypt from the Muslim "Karimi" system that apparently succeeded it. If the Rhadanite article is correct in listing the era as "approx. 500–1000", then certainly the 11th century (1000-1100) is not out of scope.--Pharos (talk) 07:23, 5 July 2014 (UTC)

Which source? I checked this one [2]. There are no hits for "Jewish Karim"

Meanwhile, please see pp. 175 and 182-3 of this paper by Shelomo Dov Goitein, in particular [3] based on analysis of the Cairo Geniza, and this book by Margariti. Note that Turner refers to Nissim as one of a group, doesn't specifically indicate that he traded in spikenard, let alone from Nepal. Goiten refutes that to a large extent, and the Turner book doesn't even cite Goiten, the leading scholar, apparently. The Margariti source is also informative, but doesn't refute Goiten.

Incidentally, "karim" appears to have been the term for a convoy of ships, originally, perhaps of Tamil origin, while "karimi" was a term for "merchant". But I'd still like to see the source you got that from, of course.

Also, the plant in question would botanically seem to be a Himalyan species, why the insistence on "Nepal"? Is there a source that emphasizes that?

Furthermore, unless you have a source that extends Radhanite beyond 1000, I see no reason to mention it here, as it would not appear to be relevant to the merchant mentioned, and it would fail WP:V.--Ubikwit ^連絡 _{見学/迷惑} 07:47, 08:49 5 July 2014 (UTC)

History of the Jews in Nepal

For some or other odd reason many people do not understand that for many, Israel and Israelis are very secular and thus have nothing to do with Judaism! Israel is the Jewish state but the majority of its Jews do not adhere to Judaism. So it is absurd to make this into an article about "Judaism" when the Israelis do not practice it and often know nothing about it. In addition this article also discusses topics not related to Judaism, such as Islamic terrorists targeting of Jews that has nothing to do with Judaism as such. Thus Jewish history is the correct all-inclusive nomenclature for this article just as it is for virtually all articles about "History of the Jews in ____" in Category:Jewish history by country. Finally WP:CONSENSUS at both Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/History of the Jews in Nepal (AFD) and Wikipedia:Deletion review/Log/2014 June 30 (DRV) clearly established that this article remains as History of the Jews in Nepal. Thank you, IZAK (talk) 01:54, 10 September 2014 (UTC)

Out of confusion is illegitimacy born

NOTE: The majority of LEGITIMATE WP:CONSENSUS is on the side of History of the Jews in Nepal based on the 9 Keep votes (versus 6 Deletes) at the AFD Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/History of the Jews in Nepal and the 14 Keep votes (versus the 8 Deletes) (I tried to count them as best I could) at the DRV Wikipedia:Deletion review/Log/2014 June 30. The closing of the RFC above #RfC: Should we change article name to 'Judaism in Nepal'? is OUT OF ORDER because it was started on 30 June 2014 and closed on 12 August 2014 during which time the official DRV was opened on the same day on 30 June 2014 and closed on 8 July 2014 that should have shut off the DRV or at least made it moot and irrelevant, but it got dragged out for over another month and a half, not taking into account that it was put out of business by the DRV, and then just by dint of laziness and lack of attention or just ignorance on the part of the closer, the RFC was left open just long enough for just 5 votes to Support the RFC versus 2 Opposing since the majority of users would have seen the notice on 1 July 2014 Talk:History of the Jews in Nepal#DRV that the main debate was moved over to the DRV: "There is now an official WP:Deletion review, see Wikipedia:Deletion review/Log/2014 June 30#History of the Jews in Nepal". Trickery and fraud does not create "consensus" and results that are illegitimate have no validity. IZAK (talk) 09:35, 10 September 2014 (UTC)

There is a proper procedure to challenge a legitimate close of an RFC, but you have chosen to act unilaterally instead.

Again, I suggest that the re-moving of the article be self-reverted and that you pursue the matter through the proper channels and procedures.

The closer, User:Robert McClenon was not involved in the discussions and there is nothing procedurally wrong with the close, but you have now added personal attacks in the form of insinuating that "Trickery and fraud" were involved.
--Ubikwit ^連絡 _{見学/迷惑} 10:26, 10 September 2014 (UTC)

Misleading and incorrect lead

While I recognize the futility of arguing with the legions of partisans of this article, nonetheless my intellectual integrity behooves me to point out the error of this lead.

"In modern times, significant numbers of Israelis and Jewish people have visited Nepal... " The contention that significant numbers of Jewish people - as distinct from Israelis - have visited Nepal is completely unsupported by the article, and purely speculative. If the author is counting Israelis as Jews - something that User:IZAK rightly doubts - then the lead could read "significant numbers of Israeli Jews". As written, it suggests that a significant number of Jews who are not Israelis have visited, something which, as I have said, is totally unsupported.

"... historically Judaism has not been one of the region's central religions and there has not been much of a Jewish presence in this region." This is not merely unsupported, but explicitly contradicted in the article. The article states, "According to the 2011 Census of Nepal, there is no Jewish community of native Nepalese people." At one time the article included a quote from a scholar that "There was never a Jewish community in Nepal, not in the past and not in the present." That was, in fact, the only remark made ever by an academic source on this non-subject, but it was judiciously excised by Izak long ago, as it did not fit in with the very particular Weltanschauung expressed in this article (look it up).

The lead should read like this:

"In modern times, significant numbers of Israelis have visited Nepal for purposes of travel and tourism and spirituality and have had an impact on tourism and culture, although historically there has never been a Jewish community in Nepal."

Also, the Birnboim quote should be restored, even if it blows away the central premise for this article's existence. --Ravpapa (talk) 13:29, 10 September 2014 (UTC)