User talk:Neelix

Template:Back from long wikibreak Having been away from Wikipedia for nearly two months, I have returned to a very long list of messages and notifications. Please be patient with me as I sort through this backlog. Thank you to all of you who encouraged me to return. It is good to be back. Neelix (talk) 20:21, 4 March 2015 (UTC)

This user is one of the 250 most active English Wikipedians of all time.

Afearing listed at Redirects for discussion

An editor has asked for a discussion to address the redirect Afearing. Since you had some involvement with the Afearing redirect, you might want to participate in the redirect discussion if you have not already done so. Mr. Guye (talk) 22:45, 3 March 2015 (UTC)

Afears listed at Redirects for discussion

An editor has asked for a discussion to address the redirect Afears. Since you had some involvement with the Afears redirect, you might want to participate in the redirect discussion if you have not already done so. Mr. Guye (talk) 22:45, 3 March 2015 (UTC)

Afear listed at Redirects for discussion

An editor has asked for a discussion to address the redirect Afear. Since you had some involvement with the Afear redirect, you might want to participate in the redirect discussion if you have not already done so. Mr. Guye (talk) 22:45, 3 March 2015 (UTC)

Afeared listed at Redirects for discussion

An editor has asked for a discussion to address the redirect Afeared. Since you had some involvement with the Afeared redirect, you might want to participate in the redirect discussion if you have not already done so. Mr. Guye (talk) 22:45, 3 March 2015 (UTC)

Perniciously listed at Redirects for discussion

An editor has asked for a discussion to address the redirect Perniciously. Since you had some involvement with the Perniciously redirect, you might want to participate in the redirect discussion if you have not already done so. Mr. Guye (talk) 22:57, 3 March 2015 (UTC)

Light-Hearted listed at Redirects for discussion

An editor has asked for a discussion to address the redirect Light-Hearted. Since you had some involvement with the Light-Hearted redirect, you might want to participate in the redirect discussion if you have not already done so. Steel1943 (talk) 04:20, 4 March 2015 (UTC)

Books and Bytes - Issue 10

The Wikipedia Library

Books & Bytes
Issue 10, January-February 2015
by The Interior (talk · contribs), Ocaasi (talk · contribs), Sadads (talk · contribs)

• New donations - ProjectMUSE, Dynamed, Royal Pharmaceutical Society, and Women Writers Online
• New TWL coordinator, conference news, and a new guide and template for archivists
• TWL moves into the new Community Engagement department at the WMF, quarterly review

Read the full newsletter

MediaWiki message delivery (talk) 17:40, 4 March 2015 (UTC)

On your return

You have no idea how happy I was to see your recent edits to these pages. Like I said elsewhere, I am really not very experienced on the TV episode articles, which is the primary reason I didn't make any changes based on the sources I found, but if there is ever a chance I can help out in some way, on that page or others, let me know. Very good to see you back. John Carter (talk) 20:31, 4 March 2015 (UTC)

Thanks, John! That you did research for that article at all was very kind. I appreciate you welcoming me back so soon after my return. Neelix (talk) 20:33, 4 March 2015 (UTC)

Very glad to see you back, amigo. =) —  Cliftonian (talk)  21:00, 4 March 2015 (UTC)

A cup of coffee for you!

Welcome back! Steel1943 (talk) 23:19, 4 March 2015 (UTC)

• +1! Like ---Another Believer _(Talk) 03:10, 6 March 2015 (UTC)

Welcome back

Glad the hysteria has abated. Welcome back. Carrite (talk) 08:18, 5 March 2015 (UTC)

Welcome back

I am happy to see you have returned. Welcome back, sir! Prhartcom (talk) 02:51, 6 March 2015 (UTC)

Hi again Neelix, I hope you can re-locate those page numbers you need for the cites for the JC's Girls article; good luck with it. Just stopping by to drop a hint that if you want to review one of my GANs in return that would certainly be okay with me. If so, I suggest Little Annie Fanny. No obligation, just throwing it out there. Cheers. Prhartcom (talk) 00:02, 15 March 2015 (UTC)

I am late for the swan

You moved Lohengrin (opera) to Lohengrin (Wagner). That is correct because there is another (not well-known) operatic piece. But you left no redirect, hundreds of links are broken. The easiest solution seems to reinstate the redirect. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 09:36, 7 March 2015 (UTC)

Update: the swan swims in the right direction again. - Welcome back! --Gerda Arendt (talk) 10:50, 7 March 2015 (UTC)

Thanks for welcoming me back Gerda! I'm surprised to hear that I left broken links; I am normally exhaustive in my correction of these links after moving an article. I am glad that all of the links have been fixed now. I notice that Voceditenore retargeted the Lohengrin (opera) redirect from Lohengrin (disambiguation) to Lohengrin (Wagner). According to Wikipedia's guidelines on incomplete disambiguation states that "When a more specific title is still ambiguous, but not enough so to call for double disambiguation, it should redirect back to the main disambiguation page (or a section of it)." Would either of you mind if I retargeted the link back to the disambiguation page? Neelix (talk) 15:24, 7 March 2015 (UTC)

Yes, we would mind, because - as said on project opera - 100% of past links to it will mean Wagner, and 90+% of future links will mean Wagner, - actually I guess 99% will not even dream that there could be another operatic piece, and the few meaning Sciarrone will know. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 15:31, 7 March 2015 (UTC)

Hi Neelix. Yes, like Gerda, I would mind very much, and I think most editors working on opera-related article would agree with us. It is a disservice to editors and especially readers to be sent to a disambiguation page when 99.999% of the time their target is the opera by Wagner. The only other Lohengrin opera is that extremely obscure work by Sciarrino. Observe the Google search results for Lohengrin opera. All of them refer to Wagner's Lohengrin, page after page. Ditto Google Books. Note that standard practice with opera articles has been to use the "(opera)" disambiguator for the most well-known version e.g. Falstaff (opera) for Verdi's opera and the composer's surname for others, e.g. Falstaff (Salieri) for the far less known opera by Antonio Salieri. If there were several equally known operas named Lohengrin then directing Lohengrin (opera) to the DAB page would make sense. When there is only one other with that name and it is virtually unknown, it doesn't make sense. Voceditenore (talk) 15:55, 7 March 2015 (UTC)

I strongly disagree. Wikipedia's guidelines on incomplete disambiguation are clear that incompletely disambiguated titles should not be redirected to articles but to disambiguation pages. I do not see how the relative prominence of these operas is relevant; it is not a factor that is (or should be) included in the relevant guideline. Normally, archive links are not considered important to keep active, but I would be glad to go through the archives and switch the links if that your primary concern. As for future links, very few if any will articles will link to Lohengrin (opera) because, even if someone tries to add such a link to an article, they will receive an immediate notification informing them of their error. Having Lohengrin (opera) redirect to Lohengrin (Wagner) will not be problematic for future links, and needs not be problematic for past links. Neelix (talk) 16:06, 7 March 2015 (UTC)

Well, I'm also going by that page—what it says at the top...

It is a generally accepted standard that editors should attempt to follow, though it is best treated with common sense, and occasional exceptions.

In this case, common sense drives the exception. But if you're determined to follow the letter of the guideline instead of common sense, then yes, I would greatly appreciate you fixing all the incoming links (not just article links) to Lohengrin (opera) before you redirect it to the DAB page again. Voceditenore (talk) 16:53, 7 March 2015 (UTC)

OK. If you would both find it acceptable for me to retarget the Lohengrin (opera) link back to Lohengrin (Wagner) provided that I first fix the archive links, I would be glad to take the time to do so. Have we reached a consensus? Neelix (talk) 17:02, 7 March 2015 (UTC)

Well, if you fix all the incoming links first, I'm not going to make a big fuss about you re-redirecting. But for the record, I don't really agree with it. Voceditenore (talk) 17:15, 7 March 2015 (UTC)

Common sense has been mentioned. Whatever a guideline says, people will code (used to it, as I am by years of training, or because they know) "Lohengrin (opera)" and mean Wagner's. They will be told by the bracket bot that they are wrong. They go and repair. - What a waste of time, for what? For the five in a year who ever heard their is a work by Sciarrone? - Voceditenore's redirect to "Lohengrin (Wagner)" makes sense to me. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 18:35, 7 March 2015 (UTC)

People are unlikely to make this mistake more than once, and the inconvenience is trivially small. I don't see how violating this guideline constitutes common sense. Generally, the common sense exception applies when there is no disagreement on the subject, but there is clearly disagreement between us on this subject. I have offered the compromise of me taking the time to go through all of the archives and fixing the links before retargeting the redirect. Would you be willing to accept this compromise? Neelix (talk) 19:10, 7 March 2015 (UTC)

I suffered some other moves by the power of the holy guidelines which were worse than this. If you want to waste your time, I will not stop you. (But promised: I will make the "opera" mistake several times to come, it's almost automatic and hard to re-learn.) --Gerda Arendt (talk) 21:16, 7 March 2015 (UTC)

"Violating" the guideline doesn't constitute common sense, Neelix. Knowing when applying the guideline would lead to an inappropriate and misleading result and making an exception to avoid that constitutes common sense. The primary meaning of "Lohengrin (opera)" is Wagner's opera. That fact is indisputable. But you seem determined to plow ahead anyway and completely ignore the caveat at the very top of Wikipedia:Disambiguation. So be it. Voceditenore (talk) 15:32, 8 March 2015 (UTC)

Common sense does not require unanimity. 99% of the readers who type "Lohengrin (opera)" will be looking for and expecting Wagner's opera. Why should they be directed anywhere else? Most cases of incomplete disambiguation will not have such an overwhelming disparity of notability. Hence the general guideline, which applies when the subjects' noteriety is more balanced is inappropriate in this case. Rlendog (talk) 01:42, 12 March 2015 (UTC)

Please fix the remaining links after another move, - I thought you wanted to do it before?? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 08:03, 11 March 2015 (UTC)

I got impatient and did some myself, my archives and Wagner, --Gerda Arendt (talk) 08:37, 11 March 2015 (UTC)

Readers very rarely type parenthetical disambiguators into the search bar. This is WikiSpeak used by editors. Even if a reader sees "Lohengrin (opera)" in the drop-down menu, "Lohengrin (Wagner)" will appear first in the list, and this is what will be chosen if that is what the reader is looking for. The popularity difference is thereby taken care of naturally. Neelix (talk) 01:49, 12 March 2015 (UTC)

Readers would type parenthetical disambiguators once they become familiar with the process. I certainly used to before I started editing. And when they do they should get the page they are almost certainly looking for, not a dab page. Rlendog (talk) 12:12, 12 March 2015 (UTC)

Readers who become familiar with the process quickly learn not to outrun the drop-down menu and invent their own parenthetical disambiguator (and so to often guess wrong), but rather to select one of the ones that appear. In the hypothetical situation that a reader would independently type "Lohengrin (opera)" into the search bar when looking for Lohengrin (Wagner), that reader would have to 1) assume that simply typing "Lohengrin" into the search bar and pressing enter will not bring them to the article they are looking for, 2) know how parenthetical disambiguators work on Wikipedia, 3) choose to invent their own disambiguator for the article rather than select one from the drop-down menu, and 4) make a specific incorrect guess as to the actual disambiguator used in the relevant article. As far as I can tell, we are talking about a very rare occurrence. Neelix (talk) 23:11, 12 March 2015 (UTC)

(1) and (2) are learned quickly by readers who often use Wikipedia. And "opera" would seem like a rather likely "guess" or "invention" from a reader who knows there are other Lohengrins out there (such as the title character itself) but is unaware that there is another opera by that title (which is again very likely). Rlendog (talk) 01:59, 13 March 2015 (UTC)

It would appear that you and I disagree substantially on how likely this occurrence would be. Our philosophizing on the issue has failed to bring us to the same conclusion, and we would have to perform a study to determine which of us is correct. I don't think either of us wants to go that far for the sake of a single redirect, but perhaps such a study could be undertaken for the sake of making the relevant guideline better informed. Neelix (talk) 15:37, 13 March 2015 (UTC)

Even if this occurrence would be infrequent, why create the confusion and extra step when it does? 13:40, 15 March 2015 (UTC)

I tried the search function for "Lohengrin opera", assuming that's what a reader who vaguely remembers there's an opera may type. Result: the dab page, then Sciarrone, then the discography, only number four Wagner's work. I don't need studies to see that it is a disservice to the majority of readers who are looking for Wagner's opera. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 15:48, 13 March 2015 (UTC)

I think we've established that we aren't going to agree on this point. You said that you would be willing to leave the redirect alone if the archive links were altered, which has been done. Have you changed your mind? Neelix (talk) 19:25, 13 March 2015 (UTC)

Changed? No, I think I said clearly enough that I think Wagner's Lohengrin should be the primary target for Lohengrin (opera). I now see evidence that the other is not working well, evidence that I didn't see before. May I mention that? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 13:51, 15 March 2015 (UTC)

(talk page stalker) I just found this thread and have read of the stubbornness of all parties involved, who keep repeating the same thing. Rest assured, all parties involved have a good and valid point. May I suggest this discussion is taken to a more visible place, where others can get involved and a true consensus can be reached? I suggest Wikipedia talk:Disambiguation, as it has over 500 watchers. Is there agreement? If so, I will be happy to state the issue there. Prhartcom (talk) 14:03, 15 March 2015 (UTC)

Some things are not changed by changing "consensus" but are facts, for example that people who think of Lohengrin and opera think of Wagner. (Call me stubborn.) I think project opera would be a better place than disambiguation, and I just found out that while Voceditenore and I are members, and Rlendog is listed as a former member, Neelix is not. Neelix, how about listening to those responsible for the articles in question? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 14:31, 15 March 2015 (UTC)

Wikipedia articles belong to no one; these articles are the responsibility of the community as a whole, not an individual WikiProject. I don't think this is an issue of not listening to each other. As far as I can tell, we have all been listening to each other, but we have continued to disagree. I had thought that you had communicated here that you were not going to continue to pursue this issue, but if you now wish to do so, Prhartcom's solution of seeking broader consensus makes most sense to me. Neelix (talk) 19:44, 15 March 2015 (UTC)

I have written the proposal and just need a place to post it. I'd like to quickly remind all parties that Neelix is an administrator, and should therefore have a broad understanding of Wikipedia policy and guidelines (although even he would admit he has not worn that hat lately). As well, I'd like to remind all parties that Gerda is a well-respected editor across a vast number of disciplines (although she clearly favors opera).

Neelix, is the place I suggested above the correct venue for seeking this consensus? We need a neutral place that will be widely seen. (Note to Gerda: You can certainly post a neutral canvas message at project opera). Prhartcom (talk) 20:02, 15 March 2015 (UTC)

I appreciate your encouraging words with respect to both Gerda and I, Prhartcom. I would add that being an administrator is not a big deal and that my status as an administrator should not give my arguments more credence in this matter; adminship has not been relevant to this discussion. I believe that both Gerda and I are making valid points, but the fact that we continue to disagree necessitates the pursuit of broader consensus. This issue does not seem to me to be opera-specific, but can rather be generalized to disambiguation issues across subject areas. While WikiProject Disambiguation seems like the most relevant WikiProject, I would recommend Wikipedia talk:Disambiguation as a location for the discussion. What we seem to be disagreeing on is the applicability of Wikipedia:Disambiguation#Incomplete_disambiguation, so the outcome of this discussion would ideally either clarify or amend this section so other similar disagreements will be better-informed by established consensus in the future. Neelix (talk) 20:19, 15 March 2015 (UTC)

Good, I have just posted the proposal there at Wikipedia talk:Disambiguation. Gerda, will you and Neelix please go there now and state your Support and your Oppose? Good luck to you both, I have the highest respect for both of you. Prhartcom (talk) 20:33, 15 March 2015 (UTC)

Your GA nomination of JC's Girls

Hi there, I'm pleased to inform you that I've begun reviewing the article JC's Girls you nominated for GA-status according to the criteria. This process may take up to 7 days. Feel free to contact me with any questions or comments you might have during this period. Message delivered by Legobot, on behalf of Prhartcom -- Prhartcom (talk) 23:01, 10 March 2015 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Enthiran/archive1

I have opened the FAC for Enthiran. Feel free to leave comments. — Ssven2 ^{Speak 2 me} 07:26, 11 March 2015 (UTC)

Nomination of Winter Story (album series) for deletion

A discussion is taking place as to whether the article Winter Story (album series) is suitable for inclusion in Wikipedia according to Wikipedia's policies and guidelines or whether it should be deleted.

The article will be discussed at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Winter Story (album series) until a consensus is reached, and anyone is welcome to contribute to the discussion. The nomination will explain the policies and guidelines which are of concern. The discussion focuses on high-quality evidence and our policies and guidelines.

Users may edit the article during the discussion, including to improve the article to address concerns raised in the discussion. However, do not remove the article-for-deletion notice from the top of the article. Shinyang-i (talk) 09:50, 11 March 2015 (UTC)

Notice

Notice of a discussion you may be interested in: [1] Lightbreather (talk) 23:59, 11 March 2015 (UTC)