User talk:JzG

Note to admins reviewing any of my admin actions (expand to read).

I am often busy in that "real life" of which you may have read. Blocks are the most serious things we can do: they prevent users from interacting with Wikipedia. Block reviews are urgent. Unless I say otherwise in the block message on the user's talk page, I am happy for any uninvolved admin to unblock a user I have blocked, provided that there is good evidence that the problem that caused the block will not be repeated. All I ask is that you leave a courtesy note here and/or on WP:ANI, and that you are open to re-blocking if I believe the problem is not resolved - in other words, you can undo the block, but if I strongly feel that the issue is still live, you re-block and we take it to the admin boards. The same applies in spades to blocks with talk page access revoked. You are free to restore talk page access of a user for whom I have revoked it, unless it's been imposed or restored following debate on the admin boards. User:DGG also has my permission to undelete or unprotect any article I have deleted and/or salted, with the same request to leave a courtesy note, and I'll rarely complain if any uninvolved admin does this either, but there's usually much less urgency about an undeletion so I would prefer to discuss it first - or ask DGG, two heads are always better than one. I may well add others in time, DGG is just one person with whom I frequently interact whose judgment I trust implicitly. Any WP:BLP issue which requires you to undo an admin action of mine, go right ahead, but please post it immediately on WP:AN or WP:ANI for review. The usual definition of uninvolved applies: you're not currently in an argument with me, you're not part of the original dispute or an editor of the affected article... you know. Apply WP:CLUE. Guy (Help!) 20:55, 11 April 2014 (UTC)

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This user is an administrator on the English Wikipedia. (verify)

This editor is a Looshpah Laureate of the Encyclopedia and is entitled to display this Book of All Knowledge with Secret Appendix, Errata Sheet, and Author's Signature.

This user is one of the 800 most active English Wikipedians of all time.

This user is a
Rouge admin.

This user has been on Wikipedia for 20 years, 2 months, and 25 days.

This user has been an admin for
18 years, 9 months, and 28 days.

This user resists the POV pushing of lunatic charlatans.

This user believes WP:AGF is not a suicide pact.

• In science, any compromise between a correct statement and a wrong statement is a wrong statement. Thanks, user:Stephan Schulz.
• My activity level is 53mKo (milli-Koavfs).
• Sad now. Special:Contributions/Geogre.
• My Last.fm profile
• vGuyUK on Twitter | SceptiGuy on Twitter

Obligatory disclaimer

I work for Dell Computer but nothing I say or do here is said or done on behalf of Dell. You knew that, right?

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About me

JzG reacting to yet another drama

I am in my early fifties, British, have been married for over quarter of a century to the world's most tolerant woman, and have two adult children. I am an amateur baritone and professional nerd. I do not tolerate racism, or any kind of bigotry. I sometimes, to my chagrin, mention that I have been an admin for a long time: some people think this is me invoking admin status in order to subdue dissent, actually it's just me as a middle aged parent of young adults saying "oh no, not this shit again". I am British, I have the British sense of humour (correctly spelled) and I absolutely do not have an accent, since I went to a thousand-year-old school. Everything I do or say could be wrong. I try always to be open to that possibility. If you think I am wrong, please just talk to me nicely, and it can all be sorted out like grown-ups. Guy (Help!) 23:49, 21 March 2015 (UTC)

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RfC and other closes

I am am making a good faith best efforts attempt to close backlogged RfCs and other debates from Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Requests for closure. These are mainly backlogged because there is no obvious consensus, so any close will undoubtedly annoy someone. I invite review of any such close on WP:ANI, where there are many more watchers than my talk page. I am happy to provide clarification of anything either here or on ANI, please ping me if it's at ANI - that exempts you from the ANI notice, IMO, and I prefer a ping to a talk page notice as the latter tends to spread discussion to multiple venues, which is a nightmare. Feel free to use "email this user" if I am not responding to a request (but remember I live in UTC, soon to be UTC-1). Guy (Help!) 23:29, 21 March 2015 (UTC)

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and stale

TV infobox again

Hi, Guy. I'm sorry to bother you with this, but after that protracted infobox discussion that ended at [1], the agreed-upon wording was "third-party source required." In fact, User:AussieLegend appeared to agree to that when he left it in his edits of [2] and going forward.

But then, today, he unilaterally removed that wording [3], and when I pointed this out, he included different phrasing to reflect his own personal position [4] rather than the one we all agreed to.

I've restored the agreed-upon version, [5], but judging from his past behavior and this unseemly tactic now, I'm wondering if, to quell things before they escalate, you might reiterate to him that wording was agreed upon as of March 22 and to please not change it? --Tenebrae (talk) 18:28, 6 May 2015 (UTC)

• Technically, I think you're both wrong, but you're less wrong. This [6] is the actual position, and it is not specific to this infobox parameter, it actually covers any statement on Wikipedia that may be subject to challenge or controversy. Guy (Help!) 19:13, 6 May 2015 (UTC)

Cool. I appreciate your being the calm, mediating force, and I also appreciate the wording you've inserted. Thank you for taking the time, and again, I'm sorry this came up again. With sincere regards, --Tenebrae (talk) 21:25, 6 May 2015 (UTC)

That has to be the first time I've been accused of being calm in ages! Guy (Help!) 21:47, 10 May 2015 (UTC)

Don't please

It's more than fine to raise valid concerns about a COI, but you have no business going on in this way to speculate about another editor's beliefs, motivation, character etc.: "Middle8 has a material conflict of interest. Evidence he presents is unlikely to include anything that challenges his beliefs."[7] I've cited your diff on my user page (at bottom of that section), and will be happy to remove it from there if you redact the personal attack at Talk:Acupuncture.

Ironically my views on acupuncture and evidence and PAG are probably a lot closer to yours than you realize, cf. my comment to a now-banned editor here, or here re MEDRS, where you commented.)

And sure, there is validity to the argument that acu'ists are conflicted when it comes to fairly depicting the shrinking evidence base -- but where are the journals, editorial boards, academic departments and so forth with actual COI policies?

So it would be more appropriate to say e.g. (and for sake of accuracy to add the parenthetical): "Middle8 has a material conflict of interest (IMO; far from everyone would agree), in which light their contributions should be considered."

Happy editing, Middle 8 (t • c | privacy • COI) 10:49, 10 May 2015 (UTC)

Noting your COI is not "speculating" about anything, you have freely admitted it in the past - you just seem to want to deny it whenever it is relevant. As to the rest, all reputable journals have COI policies, I don't know what you're getting at. FWIW I think the periodic upwelling of pro acupuncture advocacy on the Talk page is all just part of life's rich pageant, I am much more irritated with people like A1candidate constantly revisiting past debates in the hope of one day getting an answer he likes. I suspect that may be sorted in the not too distant. I am sure you and I would get along just fine in person, much is lost in the translation to text - you can always email me if you want to sound em out on whether we would agree. I suspect that any edit on which we both agree, would be a good edit. Guy (Help!) 11:17, 10 May 2015 (UTC)

Very much agree on your last two sentences; hear, hear. What I'm getting at are two related but distinct points:

1. The nature of COI and precedents (or lack thereof) for it. I don't deny it, but I don't embrace it either. Cochrane has COI guidelines, yet acu'ists are not considered conflicted there, and for that matter I haven't seen them considered conflicted at NEJM or JAMA or anywhere else. Have you? But of more immediate interest,

2. What you said: [8]

• "Middle8 has a material conflict of interest." = OK
• "Evidence he presents is unlikely to include anything that challenges his beliefs." = not OK

Do you see why? You're making multiple assumptions (wrong ones) about another editor's beliefs, motivations and character. A person's beliefs, and how they are formed and modified and acted upon, are deeply personal. NPA means respecting such boundaries. So don't "go there". There are lots of ways to talk about COI or editorial bias (diffs are nice...) that don't involve talking about what someone else thinks, believes and feels. --Middle 8 (t • c | privacy • COI) 15:58, 10 May 2015 (UTC)

@Middle 8: Yes, you are right and I apologise. You have a self-awareness which is lacking in many, albeit that it took you a little while to understand why the COI is relevant - it takes me longer to revise my view of people than it should. Guy (Help!) 21:46, 10 May 2015 (UTC)

• clink* （ ^_^）o自自o（^_^ ） cheers! --Middle 8 (t • c | privacy • COI) 05:23, 12 May 2015 (UTC)

A1candidate again

• A1candidate described his edit as "format" but he removed text sourced to a 2011 review, this NIH position statement, and this 2012 review. The edit had nothing to do with a format.
• A1candidate wrote "@DrChrissy - I've restored it back to where it belongs. Hopefully, the disruption will stop."[9] A1candidate added an entire section about veterinary acupuncture. However, there is a specific section for related practices. See Acupuncture#Related practices.
• A1candidate deleted the QuackWatch text against a long established consensus.
• A1candidate added this to lede. The edit failed to gain consensus. A1candidate added this to lede again but it is not a summary and it is poor evidence. More concise information in the lede is "It is rarely used alone but rather as an adjunct to other forms of treatment.[10]" There is a discussion about the sources. See Talk:Acupuncture#Cancer-related_pain and see Talk:Acupuncture#Expansion_of_lead.
• A1candidate added this to the ethics section again but it is not about ethics and the same source is summarised in the effectiveness section.
• A1candidate deleted this from the body again but it not speculation. See Talk:Acupuncture#Iceman tattoo.
• A1candidate added information about electroacupuncture again but the article is about acupuncture not a related practice. The latest edits by A1candidate did not improve the page according to the comments above.
• A1candidate was continuing to edit war even after being warned by an uninvolved admin.

Since nothing is being done at ArbCom I think it is time to report him to AN/I or seek other options.

A1candidate was notified of the sanctions on 26 June 2014. A1candidate was also notified of the sanctions for acupuncture on 12 January 2015. Thoughts? QuackGuru (talk) 15:15, 10 May 2015 (UTC)

Thoughts? ...beware the boomerang and the learning capacity of the antipodeans....DrChrissy ^(talk) 20:35, 10 May 2015 (UTC)

I reserve judgment for now. Guy (Help!) 21:09, 10 May 2015 (UTC)

Maybe...just maybe....

...if you'd be a little more charming and a little less abrasive you'd reap sweeter grapes.🍇 Atsme☯^Consult 18:45, 10 May 2015 (UTC)

Maybe I just have limited time for endlessly repeated arguments. Did that ever occur to you? I'm runnign a $1.5m project at work across multiple countries, singing in nine choirs with at least two concerts a month, and trying to do my bit for Wikipedia in what's left. Last weekend I was singing a Missa Superba by Johann Caspar Kerll that has not, as far as we can tell, been performed in England for over 300 years. Next weekend I am singing music by Palestrina, Giles Swayne and others. The weekend after I am singing the baritone solos in a Fauré Requiem and a song by Vaughan Williams. In June it's Poulenc and others, in July, Spem in alium. I also do all the staging and lights for most of my choirs, and create rehearsal recordings for a couple.

What are your hobbies? Guy (Help!) 21:08, 10 May 2015 (UTC)

Well... I try to keep in mind a comment by Kenneth Goodman, who is co-director of Ethics programs at the University of Miami:

"Civil society sometimes requires we take a deep breath, recognize many of our compatriots are morons, and press on with grace and dignity. It can make you nuts, but that's what civilization requires."

Admittedly I sometimes forget the 'grace and dignity' bit. Short Brigade Harvester Boris (talk) 21:25, 10 May 2015 (UTC)

True, but usually on Wikipedia the only result of being warm and fluffy towards someone with a no-hope request, is that the request gets spun out endless.y. Better in the long run to say no, politely but firmly, and tell them why. One day I will master the "politely" bit of that. Maybe. Guy (Help!) 21:43, 10 May 2015 (UTC)

Sorry for the delay - RL keeps getting in the way. In response to your question about "endlessly repeated arguments", my answer is no, it never occurred to me. The reason being, unlike you, I never got angry or impatient over your endlessly repeated arguments but that's old news. [10] Anyway, just an FYI -- singing in nine choirs should have the opposite effect on you: [11]. I didn't validate the information against a Cochran review but according to science, you should have returned to editing feeling all kinds of love for your fellow Wikipedians . I'm thinking maybe you should have visited a massage therapist and followed it up with a slight chiropractic adjustment to help you relax and get some of the kinks out of your armor. I'd even be willing to pay for it. . One of these days when you don't have such a busy schedule, I'll tell you about my hobbies. Atsme ^{☎️ 📧} 22:23, 11 May 2015 (UTC)

Along those lines, Guy, Deepak Chopra once offered me a free consultation when I questioned the clinical volume of his medical practice. I haven't cashed it in yet, and if it will help mellow you out, you're welcome to redeem it. Just show up at the front door to the Chopra Empire and tell them you're the famous MastCell, from Wikipedia, and you're there for your free wellness optimization. You could also fork over a few thousand dollars for Transcendental Meditation training; we've got a number of editors here who could probably ring you up if you're interested in that sort of thing. Not that they have COIs or anything, of course. MastCell ^Talk 23:30, 11 May 2015 (UTC)

MC, I thought he wrote books about sex. No? Atsme ^{☎️ 📧} 23:41, 11 May 2015 (UTC)

No, you're thinking of Sigmund Freud. :) Or maybe Chopra does too, but I'm pretty sure he doesn't include that sort of thing in the free introductory package. MastCell ^Talk 00:34, 12 May 2015 (UTC)

Yep, that's him, [12] - thought I recognized that name. Guy - I found some stress relief for you!! [13] Recommendation - listen to it before you engage in a discussion with me. Atsme ^{☎️ 📧} 01:04, 12 May 2015 (UTC) ^{I hope y'all realize I'm just yanking your chain.}

You should check out the Wisdom of Chopra. Also follow DBag Chopra on the twitters. Guy (Help!) 15:26, 13 May 2015 (UTC)

I think I cracked a rib laughing. One of my favorites: Making tea comprehends spontaneous facts. And all this time I thought that's what making whoopee did. I'll just have to buy more tea. --Atsme^☎️📧 23:43, 15 May 2015 (UTC)

Sigh

Wikipedia:Teahouse/Questions#Possible_racist_comment. The Doctor is worried... --NeilN ^{talk to me} 19:55, 10 May 2015 (UTC)

[14] I'm AGF-ing; they may simply not know that it's a completely true statement. Sucks to get wrongly accused of racism, very sorry to see this come up. --Middle 8 (t • c | privacy • COI) 20:56, 10 May 2015 (UTC)

Meh. Water off a duck's back. I know that when people's beliefs are challenged, they can get very defensive and often kick back. Nobody who actually knows me would accuse me of racism, no point talking about the realities of it but any of my work colleagues would be most amused by an accusation of racism against me. Thanks, though. Guy (Help!) 21:01, 10 May 2015 (UTC)

The thing I don't get (from the AGF standpoint) is why wonder so-very-in-public when they could just ask here. But then I've way-the-fuck-too-fast escalated too, so, actually I do get it. --Middle 8 (t • c | privacy • COI) 21:08, 10 May 2015 (UTC)

I have not got to the bottom of DrChrissy. I can't say I'm impressed with what I've seen to date on acupuncture, but xyr contributions to wildfowl articles look very good indeed to me (irony not lost). Have a look at some of them, I think you'll be impressed. Guy (Help!) 21:12, 10 May 2015 (UTC)

Yeah, same here, saw some good stuff and will dig deeper.

"Xyr"; cool! I've met one of the people who's championed that group o' pronouns, and xe/they are remarkable: really sweet, really insightful, taught me some critical things about relating to some important people in my life. "Xe" et. al. are imo like Esperanto: an ideal solution that I doubt will really catch on. So I usually default to "they". But "xe" is by far a better conversation-starter. cheers. Middle 8 (t • c | privacy • COI) 21:38, 10 May 2015 (UTC)

Nice! I don't recall where I picked it up, exactly, but I am pretty sure it was a Sci-Fi book. I used to read masses of them, but I've sort of gone off them lately, apart from the Culture novels and some of Scalzi's books. The main problem is the tendency of modern authors to write themselves into corners full of cliches, sadly. And I don't like fantasy much. Stainless Steel Rat, now, that is brilliant :-) Guy (Help!) 21:42, 10 May 2015 (UTC)

Love, love the Culture series. Actually have four more to go (Use of Weapons and the last three) and am kinda savoring them. They somewhat changed my worldview (clarified my idea of a utopia). What a loss Banks was. I'm getting more into SF in general (have been more into non-fiction) and will check out that other stuff one of these days; SSR sounds fun. BTW just now figured out your username was from Adams.... my wife digs him; can't believe I haven't read that yet either, but what I have read sounded on the money. Have you read Paul Kirchner's Realms (trippy comic book)? [15] --Middle 8 (t • c | privacy • COI) 05:21, 12 May 2015 (UTC)

Use Of Weapons is just nasty, but I enjoyed the rest, including Hydrogen Sonata - though it is rather obviously a conscious farewell to the Culture universe, which does induce a certain tristesse. Guy (Help!) 14:24, 12 May 2015 (UTC)

But he loved SF so much (he'd said it his favorite thing to write); I bet he would've come back to it. I admit I wanted to see if Banks would subject the Culture to some ironic, macabre end... some wayward Minds interrupting their finally trying to Sublime, maybe the sublimed Airspheres society getting their revenge, anything. Suspect he would've, had he not himself exited so strangely. --Middle 8 (t • c | privacy • COI) 16:04, 13 May 2015 (UTC)

My take is that he's a trusting soul and doesn't understand that there are bad people out there that write false papers and even create dodgy journals for the purpose of publishing dodgy papers. Or even (*gasp*) manipulating politicians into funding medical treatments that don't work. I doubt there's a lot of problems with deceptive sources about wildfowl.—Kww(talk) 21:47, 10 May 2015 (UTC)

The acupuncture page says. "Chinese authors use more Chinese studies, which have been demonstrated to be uniformly positive.[75]" I'm good at finding sources. QuackGuru (talk) 07:42, 11 May 2015 (UTC)

COI?

Yes. William Connolley was found to have a COI on climate articles - are you sure? I admit, there have been so many its hard to keep count, but I don't recall that one William M. Connolley (talk) 20:18, 11 May 2015 (UTC)

Well, that was my understanding. Though frankly I think it's bullshit to accuse a professional scientist of having a COI, so I could be wrong. Guy (Help!) 21:26, 11 May 2015 (UTC)

Reminder

Please let me remind you. I have requested you strike comments you made about me here[16] and here[17]. Please do this.DrChrissy ^(talk) 11:04, 12 May 2015 (UTC)

Says the person who accused me of racism (in two separate venues) for stating a well-known and documented fact. What you need to do is to stop randomly proposing sources without any suggested text based on those sources, and stop acting indignant when others reject your proposed sources. I believe you lack WP:COMPETENCE in this area. I have said before, I think your edits on wildfowl are very good (in as much as I, a non-specialist, can judge), but your attempts to intervene in acupuncture are shedding heat, not light, due to your lack of familiarity with core concepts such as journal quality. Guy (Help!) 11:28, 12 May 2015 (UTC)

Complementary and Alternative Medicine arbitration case request

The Arbitration Committee has declined the Complementary and Alternative Medicine arbitration case request, which you were listed as a party to. For the Arbitration Committee, --L235 (t / c / ping in reply) 23:04, 12 May 2015 (UTC)

YCL Britain

Please stop reversing revision. These individuals are not irrelevant but represent a full time line of YCL leadership. Is in keeping with page as reflects continuity between YCL of CPGB and CPB which is accepted in the rest of the article. Happy to discuss at greater length. Kind regards Johnnie1917 (talk) 13:38, 13 May 2015 (UTC)

You are a single purpose account whose sole purpose on Wikipedia is adding trivia to an article on a minor political group, and whose recent activity consists solely of adding a laundry list of mainly non-notable individuals. I am an experienced Wikipedia editor and administrator with tens of thousands of edits to thousands of articles over nearly a decade. Which of us is more likely to be right on this, do you think? However, thank you for drawing the article to my attention, I have pruned some poorly sourced and largely promotional material and removed a couple of unreliable sources. Guy (Help!) 15:23, 13 May 2015 (UTC)

Just because you are an 'editor' that does not mean that you have a superior knowledge on this particular subject. I feel you are being very rude and dismissive by not being prepared to discuss this with me? I will invest sometime in editing the article properly as clearly you have some sort of bias regarding this one way or another. Threatening to ban me without the courtesy of hearing my case is immature and abusiveJohnnie1917 (talk) 13:30, 15 May 2015 (UTC)

The relevant subject is Wikipedia policies and guidelines. You may safely assume that I know a very great deal more about them than you do. What is your connection with this group? Guy (Help!) 14:00, 15 May 2015 (UTC)

SWOT

I think I will start the Society of Wikipedia Old-Timers, open to any editor over the age of 50. Or maybe not. Guy (Help!) 15:48, 13 May 2015 (UTC)

Notice of ANI

There is currently a discussion at Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents regarding an issue with which you may have been involved. Thank you.

ANI

Could you restore the deleted articles to my user space please? And restore three of them that had assertions of notability to mainspace? Thanks. Philafrenzy (talk) 10:10, 15 May 2015 (UTC)

None had assertions of notability. I will restore them when the ANI thread concludes if there is good evidence that this is not disruptive. Guy (Help!) 11:30, 15 May 2015 (UTC)

Three had assertions per the thread? Philafrenzy (talk) 11:33, 15 May 2015 (UTC)

No, they did not. I replied there, as that's the correct venue. Guy (Help!) 11:34, 15 May 2015 (UTC)

John Coleman (news weathercaster)

Why the protection for sockpuppetry? 1) There isn't persistent sockpuppetery. 2) The edit the "sockpuppet" was adding, I took responsibility for. Thus, there is no need for protection. Bgwhite (talk) 23:39, 15 May 2015 (UTC)

BLP violations. "Tea Party News Network" as a source in a BLP? Really? And you were prepared tot ake responsibility for that? I have no idea why you would do such a thing. Guy (Help!) 07:55, 16 May 2015 (UTC)

Please see what I was doing instead of accusations. Read the article history, the talk page and what I wrote above.

• The Tea Party network wasn't added in 2015. As I said above, I was taking responsibility for what the "sock" added not the entire article.
• OccultZone was saying sockpuppetry was happening daily. This is clearly false. The last confirmed sock edit was April 20 and only three sock edits in 2015.
• OccultZone was complaining about how the "sock" was adding info on the American Meteorological Association and its irrelevance to the article... what I took responsibility for.

Again, why the protection for sockpuppetry? Bgwhite (talk) 08:47, 16 May 2015 (UTC)

Look at the source in the diff you just posted. Tea Party News Network. Slightly less reliable than The Onion. Guy (Help!) 11:35, 16 May 2015 (UTC)

Sorry, I was looking at another ref. The ref you are pointing to... The video at the bottom, at 42 seconds in Coleman states he left the AMS and why. The video was put up and produced by KUSI, San Diego while Coleman was still working for KUSI. I'll redo the ref and point have it say it was from KUSI.

For the third time, answer my question. Bgwhite (talk) 22:45, 16 May 2015 (UTC)

And in order to discuss it we need a reliable independent secondary source that establishes the significance of his statement, and how the reality-based community reacted to it. Guy (Help!) 00:56, 17 May 2015 (UTC)

WP:SELFPUB... see talk page and fringe noticeboard entry.. You are not answering my question and instead attacking MY edit. My question has nothing to do with the edit. For the fourth time, why the protection for sockpuppetry. Bgwhite (talk) 02:23, 17 May 2015 (UTC)

Status

I'm mainly offline for the rest of today, Saturday 16-May-15. I will be singing music by Henry Purcell, Giovanni Gabrieli, Arvo Pärt, Giles Swayne and others. As per the page header, any uninvolved admin is free to reverse any admin action I've taken as long as they drop me a courtesy note - nobody is infallible, especially me. Have a great day, Wikipedia, I certainly intend to. Guy (Help!) 08:12, 16 May 2015 (UTC)