Talk:Vickers machine gun

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I've invited the enthusiasts from the Vickers Machine Gun Forum to contribute to this article. Catherine - talk 04:51, 11 May 2004 (UTC)

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Thank you for the metric measurements, JKnight -- the article needed it for most everything. I wanted to explain why I removed them from the title sentence, though -- the .303 inch Machine Gun is the gun's name, similar to the 3-1/2 inch floppy disk; I read a discussion there about the fact that no matter where you are in the world, calling it a whatever-millimeter disk rather than a 3-1/2" would have people scratching their heads. In these cases the metric equivalent should not be included, at least not within the bolded title. I'll be happy to add a paragraph about the .303 inch ammunition, though, and include the 7.7 mm equivalent there. Thanks again for your contribution! Catherine - talk 00:06, 14 May 2004 (UTC)

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It should be noted that the water-cooling is by evaporation rather than in the more conventional understanding where the water carries heat to a car radiator. GDL 20-1-05

Having read some of the training notes for the Vickers, I can add this to the understanding of the cooling.

The hose seen in pictures of the gun running from the muzzle end carries the steam boiling off the cooling water into a condenser (just a jerry-can affiar with a bit of water in the bottom). Without this the steam coming off the barrel would give away the guns position. GDL 26-1-2005

Reliability

I have read from a reliable source that in a test a Vickers was fired continously for several hours. GDL

During WW1, some guns fired continuous barrages for days, stopping only for barrel changes. Andy Dingley (talk) 00:03, 29 April 2008 (UTC)

I hear thanks to ARRSE that according to "Grand Old Lady of No Man's Land, The: Vickers Machine Gun " by Dolf Goldsmith that in the 60s they fired one for seven days and nights. Anyone seen this book it might be useful reference. GraemeLeggett (talk) 22:03, 17 October 2009 (UTC)

I have seen that too. Unsure whether it was a Hogg reference, but I seem to remember it was a Vickers co. reliability test and it was much earler than the 60s, straining my rapidly failing memory, I believe it was mentioned as being "inter war" Irondome (talk) 23:18, 8 February 2013 (UTC)

Here's GraemeLegget's source. Apparently, after seven days and seven nights of continuous full auto (pausing only to change the barrel every hour or so), the gun that had fired just under 5 million rounds (500 rounds per minute times 10,080 minutes per week) was inspected and gauged, and found to require no service. Attributed to Goldsmith, Dolf L. (June 1994). The Grand Old Lady of No Man's Land: The Vickers Machinegun. p. 188. ISBN 0-88935-147-3. 71.41.210.146 (talk) 07:36, 4 October 2015 (UTC)

Use as a support weapon

As a first point the Vickers is a heavy machine gun, assigned to support infantry, and not part of a platoon structure (lookup Machine Gun Corps), as opposed to a light machine gun like the Bren for which one was issued to each section of a platoon.

This applies to more than one MG, but partly explains the huge tripod. The use of a tripod, rather than a bipod (eg as in the Bren Gun) means the Vickers can be used for indirect fire; attacking targets out of sight of the operators. The increased angle of the mount required would mean the gunfire is almost literally a 'hail' coming in from above onto the enemy. GDL

9 yards

I've removed this for the moment, since its origins seems dubious. At 9 yards for 250 rounds you get one round every one and a bit inches which seems a lot for a round only 1/3 inch across.GraemeLeggett

I added the 'whole 9 yards' text before I registered. I heard it on a BBC television programme (I think it was War Walks - but it may have been another of his) presented by the historian Professor Richard Holmes. Actually if you look at a Vickers belt there is a lot of fabric between the individual rounds and your calculation (one and a bit inches) sounds about right.

Were the Maxim and Vickers belts the same? I noticed eyelets between the rounds in both.68.231.184.217 (talk) 17:52, 5 July 2011 (UTC)

And Re: have read from a reliable source that in a test a Vickers was fired continously for several hours. GDL

From: Weapons & War Machines - Ian V. Hogg & John Batchelor - Pheobus - 1976 ISBN 0-7026-0008-3 Page 62

"The Vickers gun accompanied the BEF to France in 1914, and in the years that followed proved itself to be the most reliable weapon on the battlefield, some of its feats of endurance entering military mythology. Perhaps the most incredible was the action by the 100th Company of the Machine Gun Corps at High Wood on August 24, 1916. This company had ten Vickers guns, and it was ordered to give sustained covering fire for 12 hours onto a selected area 2000 yards away in order to prevent German troops forming up there for a counter-attack while a British attack was in progress. Two whole companies of infantrymen were allocated as carriers of ammunition, rations and water for the machine-gunners. Two men worked a belt-filling machine non-stop for 12 hours keeping up a supply of 250-round belts. One hundred new barrels were used up, and every drop of water in the neighbourhood, including the men’s drinking water and contents of the latrine buckets, went up in steam to keep the guns cool. And in that 12-hour period the ten guns fired a million rounds between them. One team fired 120,000 from one gun to win a five- franc prize offered to the highest-scoring gun. And at the end of that 12 hours every gun was working perfectly and not one gun had broken down during the whole period. It was this absolute foolproof reliability which endeared the Vickers to every British soldier who ever fired one. It never broke down; it just kept on firing and came back for more. And that was why the Mark 1 Vickers gun was to remain the standard medium machine-gun from 1912 to 1968."

If you want more information on weapons then anything by Ian V. Hogg is usually reliable, e.g.

The Encyclopedia of Infantry Weapons of World War II - A&AP - 1977 - ISBN 0-85368-281-X

Military Small Arms of the 20th Century (with John Weeks) - A&AP - 1977 - ISBN 0-85368-301-8

This last one is (or was) a thick book (i.e., expensive! - £9.99 when I bought mine in 1978) but might be available from libraries if you don't want to buy it.

Ian Dunster 19:08, 5 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Aircraft armament & heavy v medium

The History section of the article, last sentence, states: "As the machine gun armament of fighters moved from the fuselage to the wings before WW 1,..." I think that should read " after WW 1". All the well known fighters of WW 1.i.e. Camel, SE 5, Spad, Fokker, etc, had fuselage mounted guns.

The section 'Use as a support weapon' above, begins: "As a first point the Vickers is a heavy machine gun". No, it was not - it was a medium machine gun. Indeed, the quote from "Weapons and War Machines", above, includes the sentence: " The Mark 1 Vickers was to remain the standard medium machine-gun from 1912 to 1968". Example weapons of the different 'weights' are: Bren (light), Vickers Mk 1 (medium) and Browning M2 (heavy).

84.130.116.15 21:27, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

That's correct that the British Army called it a medium MG, but hardly anyone else uses that term. It is in everything but name in the same class as other heavy machineguns such as the US M-1917 series or the Soviet M1910 Maxim. The US M2 and Soviet DShK are in a class by themselves. DMorpheus 18:23, 7 August 2006 (UTC)

In research for wiki article on Willy Coppens, I found reference to his use of an 11 mm Vickers to shoot down German observation balloons during WWI. Don't know if this is a useful addition to this article, but thought I would mention it. ````George J. Dorner, (gjdorner when logged in) 27 June 2008```` —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.103.186.114 (talk) 04:21, 28 June 2008 (UTC)

Tea

Should the article say something about the popular myth that the Vickers' water-cooling jacket was used to make tea? Quite apart from a situation requiring heavy enough fire to boil the water not being the most suitable time to stop for a tea break, I understand that the water would've been too contaminated with oil, rust, asbestos etc for even the most hardened tea-drinker to stomach. Chris 00:10, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

Yes, and copper, too, from the barrel plating..a daily dose of carcinogens from the barrel packing and heavy metals...68.231.184.217 (talk) 12:08, 7 July 2011 (UTC)

is it that popular a myth?GraemeLeggett 08:41, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

I'm not sure, but it seems to've been persistent enough to have been refuted on occasion. If it's not that popular, maybe it should be.  :) Chris 11:49, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

You wouldn't use the water from the cooling jacket - you'd use the condensed water from the condenser can. Providing that can was kept clean then there'd be no problem making tea from it. On the Western Front there'd be plenty of times when the gun would be fired constantly enough for the making of tea. You'd just need to wait until the condenser can had enough boiling water in it. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 213.40.250.154 (talk) 20:18, 15 December 2009 (UTC)

Cryptonomicon reference

Neal Stephenson gives a very colorful description of Vickers in Cryptonomicon. It's quoted here: [1]. sendmoreinfo (talk) 21:05, 10 November 2008 (UTC)

IIRC the early Maxim guns had a facility for varying the rate-of-fire that Vickers subsequently removed in their modified design. They also replaced brass or steel with light alloy in some parts to save weight.

Maybe the Very Early Maxims had a "rate of fire control"; but not the '04 or '08 models. The Vickers was designed in 1912, so, no "unnecesaary parts". Toggle link was reversed. Receiver was not as tall. "The Devil's Paintbrush".Tintinteslacoil (talk) 00:35, 22 July 2011 (UTC)

The Rolls-Royce Merlin and Allison V-1710 were roughly contemporaneous in design and neither was designed as a 'replacement' for the other. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.112.68.219 (talk) 19:29, 18 July 2011 (UTC)

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