User talk:Uanfala

Dear Uanfala

I have recently made a minor edit on the linked page. Thank you. Listofpeople (talk) 15:08, 18 May 2016 (UTC)

Speedy deletion nomination of Bellsybabble

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A tag has been placed on Bellsybabble requesting that it be speedily deleted from Wikipedia. This has been done under section A7 of the criteria for speedy deletion, because the article appears to be about a person or group of people, but it does not credibly indicate how or why the subject is important or significant: that is, why an article about that subject should be included in an encyclopedia. Under the criteria for speedy deletion, such articles may be deleted at any time. Please read more about what is generally accepted as notable.

If you think this page should not be deleted for this reason, you may contest the nomination by visiting the page and clicking the button labelled "Contest this speedy deletion". This will give you the opportunity to explain why you believe the page should not be deleted. However, be aware that once a page is tagged for speedy deletion, it may be removed without delay. Please do not remove the speedy deletion tag from the page yourself, but do not hesitate to add information in line with Wikipedia's policies and guidelines. If the page is deleted, and you wish to retrieve the deleted material for future reference or improvement, then please contact the deleting administrator. — Etimena 22:03, 20 May 2016 (UTC)

• @Etimena: Are you sure you it's {{db-person}} that you meant to use? May I humbly recommend a careful reread of WP:CSD and especially WP:A7. Uanfala (talk) 22:07, 20 May 2016 (UTC)

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List of multilingual websites

Thank you for your comments at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of multilingual websites.
—Wavelength (talk) 19:28, 26 May 2016 (UTC)

No problem. It's a pity the others didn't agree with us. I'm getting the impression that the notability of lists is a murky area without concrete guidelines and that most of the time whether a list is judged encyclopedic or not, is ultimately down to individual editors' subjective views. Uanfala (talk) 19:41, 26 May 2016 (UTC)

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Siouan

Hi, thanks for adding the book to Siouan. I was a bit surprised to find it in External References. I would have put it under Bibliography, together with Parks and Voegelin. Jasy jatere (talk) 11:55, 8 June 2016 (UTC)

@Jasy jatere: Yeah, "External links" isn't the most appropriate section. The book most properly belongs in a "Further reading" section, but as this would have been the only entry in such a section (and one-entry section aren't very pretty), I chose the lesser of two evils by including it with the external links (and it is after all an online publication, so not completely out of place there). I didn't list it in "Bibliography" as this would have implied (not very strongly really, see WP:FNNR) that it has been used as a general reference when writing the article, which it wasn't (yet?). Feel free to move it to a different section (I think "Further reading" is the best option for now), no-one's going to accuse of COI for doing such an edit. Uanfala (talk) 15:42, 8 June 2016 (UTC)

Please comment on Talk:Rojava

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A barnstar for you!

	The Defender of the Wiki Barnstar
	Great catch identifying that Azamgarh sockfarm! VQuakr (talk) 17:42, 4 July 2016 (UTC)

Thank you! It's nice to see that, given how generally awkward it feels to deal with what is essentially policing work. Uanfala (talk) 18:49, 4 July 2016 (UTC)

Gloss modules

I noticed that you've been working on Module:Sandbox/Uanfala/glt. It looks pretty interesting, but are there any examples where it's used? I'm interested in helping contribute to it. →Σσς. (Sigma) 02:07, 10 July 2016 (UTC)

It's not ready yet. It needs adding one or two functions and then a big sweep with the broom before we have a functional alpha version. I've been meaning to resume working on it for some time, but now after this nudge, I'll try to do it in the next couple of days. After that I think it will be a lot more transparent and after this stage help will be more than welcome!

I think even at this point I could do with an opinion. Do you have any views on what the html should look like? I know of two approaches, either with divs (as done by http://bdchauvette.net/leipzig.js/) or with ols (as they do in Glossa, for example in this article) and I've somewhat arbitrarily chosen the first one, but let me know if you have any thoughts. Uanfala (talk) 10:57, 10 July 2016 (UTC)

Well, I'll have to be away from wikipedia for a week and I'll resume working on it when I' back. I'm expecting the bare skeleton to be functional around the end of the month. Uanfala (talk) 21:29, 18 July 2016 (UTC)

Interesting how those two do glossing. It might be easiest to use wikitables, as my initial thought, but I agree with your decision to use the leipzig.js style. I'll try to look at the Lua code when I get time. →Σσς. (Sigma) 04:44, 21 July 2016 (UTC)

Yeah, tables are the simplest solution and I've got a very simple template in my sandbox that does just that. But they're problematic (lines don't wrap around for example). As for the Lua code, I don't think it's completely readable yet, but hopefully it should make sense by the end of the month. Uanfala (talk) 16:15, 21 July 2016 (UTC)

You're right, the Lua code isn't readable at all! It'd be nice if you could comment the code and/or explain it, but other than the implementation I have a few comments on the use cases. See, I just noticed User:Uanfala/sandbox/glt/test and User:Uanfala/sandbox/glt/test2, nice progress on the rendering. I looked at how you're designing the template to be called, which involves parsing user input (the horror!) for three parameters. What if instead of parsing raw user input, you pass three templates into the three arguments, something like:

Situation: You are speaking to fruit vendor A, who, being in the fruit market, is competing with other fruit vendors B, C, D, etc.

{{gloss
 |1={{other language  |ru guo |wo |ba |ni  |de  |ping guo |qi diao |de hua |ta men |hui   |hen  |bu  |kai xing }}
 |2={{translation     |if     |I  |BA |you |GEN |apple    |eat     |DE HUA |they   |will  |very |not |happy    }}
 |3=If I eat your apple, they won't be happy.
}}

("ba" and "de hua" should be in small caps, but pre tags won't accept that. Also, I lied: the third parameter isn't a template)

Here's more examples to further illustrate:

{{gloss
 |1={{other language  |je |lui      |ai   |répondu    |ce    |matin  }}
 |2={{translation     |I  |him.DAT  |have |responded  |this  |morning }}
 |3=I responded to him this morning
}}

{{gloss
 |1={{other language  |nach   |der      |10.    |Klasse  |habe  |ich  |eine  |Berufsausbildung     |gemacht }}
 |2={{translation     |after  |the.DAT  |tenth  |grade   |have  |I    |a     |vocational training  |make-PRF}}
 |3=After 10th grade, I did a vocational training
}}

{{gloss
 |1={{other language  |chan  |may  |chia     |(siŋ)  |thii |khun |bɔɔk}}
 |2={{translation     |I     |not  |believe  |thing  |REL  |you  |say }}
 |3=I don't believe what you said
}}

{{gloss
 |1={{other language  |wo   |(de) |mama   }}
 |2={{translation     |1sg  |GEN  |mother }}
 |3=my mother
}}

{{gloss
 |1={{other language  |wo   |*|(de) |fang zi   }}
 |2={{translation     |1sg  | |GEN  |house }}
 |3=my house
}}

{{gloss
 |note=*
 |1={{other language  |piao liang piao liang }}
 |2={{translation     |pretty                }}
 |3=pretty
}}

{{gloss
 |1={{other language  |piao piao liang liang }}
 |2={{translation     |pretty                }}
 |3=pretty
}}

{{gloss
 |1={{other language  |tao lun tao lun }}
 |2={{translation     |discuss         }}
 |3=discuss
}}

{{gloss
 |note=*
 |1={{other language  |tao tao lun lun }}
 |2={{translation     |discuss         }}
 |3=discuss
}}

The main advantage being that parsing is delegated to the user, instead of having to be implemented in Lua, which saves us a lot of time trying to wrangle with the module :). Thus, there'll be no need to worry about ambiguity; all that the Lua will have to do is annotate abbreviations, which will be trivial thanks to the neatly demarked periods and dashes. (I've also described a note= parameter that adds a user-specified character to prefix grammaticality. What do you think? →Σσς. (Sigma) 02:48, 31 July 2016 (UTC)

Well, I'm not a programmer, so I guess even after the explanatory comments and the editing for clarity I'm planning to make in a week's time, the code will still look a bit opaque.

As for your idea for using nested templates, it's a nifty one and it could simplify the most inelegant part of the program. However, I don't think this makes up for the reduction in usability. If we make ordinary editors jump through the hoops of nested templates and passing every gloss word as a separate argument, then we really aren't addressing the main problem this template is meant to solve – the fuss of adding interlinear glosses. We wouldn't be be in a very different situation from the one we're in now, when we have to format glossed text using tables.

Another issue is consistency with similar tools. If we allow editors to delimit words using spaces (as in {{Inerlinear|unser-n Väter-n| our-DAT.PL father.DAT.PL|'to our fathers'}} then we're following the format of all the other tools I'm aware of (this mediawiki extension, the two latex packages and Leipzig.js). We would like it to be easy to repurpose for wikipedia interlinear text created with these other tools, wouldn't we?

I'm aiming for the mid of August for the present skeleton to be functional, tidied up and documented. Uanfala (talk) 23:19, 1 August 2016 (UTC)

Now about the horror of parsing user input, maybe the module doesn't do as much parsing as it seems – it only splits the input string at space characters while taking care that each word doesn't contain any unclosed tags. For example, it treats as one word a string like <b>simple enough<b> (what the module sees of the wikitext '''simple enough'''). Uanfala (talk) 15:44, 2 August 2016 (UTC)

Σ, I'm thinking of your |note= parameter for prefixing a grammaticality * or ? symbol. Do such symbols need to be formatted specially? My impression is that they normally go right at the start of the source language text. Uanfala (talk) 12:05, 3 August 2016 (UTC)

Sorry for the late response. I clicked the notifications icon and totally forgot to get back to you because it turned back to gray.

taking care that each word doesn't contain any unclosed tags It's often recommended to use a real™ xml parser when dealing with xml instead of trying to roll your own implementation. I'm not sure what your code is doing at the moment but I feel like there may be edge cases.

Another issue is consistency with similar tools. Well, the difference between LaTeX and leipzig.js and even the MediaWiki extension is that they all leverage the full power of their programming language's environment. We can't. Scribunto brought us from the bow and arrow to the breech-loaded rifle, while everyone who uses non-Scribunto Lua has machine guns. Off the top of my head (I have many, many more complaints about the implementation), we are constrained to "Lua in one file", without the access to third party code or the ablity to interface with the language on a lower level. So it'd be nice if we could take inputs exactly as other tools do, but it'd be a lot more possibly-buggy hacking with our constraints than it (imo) is worth. I think that delineating each unit, which in at least 95% of situations just going to be the extremely simple operation of sticking a "|" where you'd put a space, is simply less trouble for everyone.

I'm not actually sure how Lua would treat a parameter with multiple spaces but it'd also be useful to align the words in the code, too.

Anyway,I was intending the note parameter to be linked to grammaticality or have a tooltip to explain what the symbol means. But I just thought up another way to do that:

{{gloss
 |1={{other language|*|ich |habe |gegessen |einen |Apfel }}
 |2={{translation   | |I   |have |eaten    |an    |apple }}
}}

A lone star or question mark would have a tooltip to explain what it says about grammaticality. A benefit to using grammaticality as a single word-unit is that it also fits for cases where words are obligatorily non-optional, eg "wo *(de) fang zi" as mentioned above (I've tweaked the example code, as such), without ruining the alignment. Which was my original intention for it in the first place: that the asterisk should not cause "ich" and "I" to be misaligned. →Σσς. (Sigma) 03:18, 6 August 2016 (UTC)

@Σ: I don't really see the merit of treating the grammaticality asterisk as a word-level entity. It complicates both the code and the user interface, and it can easily be dealt with without all the fuss. As simple a thing as {{gloss|*ich habe gegessen einen Apfel|I have eaten an apple}} would do the trick. (That's assuming the asterisk goes immediately at the start of the string it applies to, which is what I recall seeing in glosses.) As for the obligatorily non-optional elements, they're easier taken care of by the same mechanism that deals with cases of non-1-to-1 mapping between the words in different lines. An example:

{{gloss
|Dit is een voorbeeldje in het Nederlands.
|This is a little{{nbsp}}example in {{nbsp}} Dutch.
|`This is a little example in Dutch.'}}

Dit

This

is

is

een

a

voorbeeldje

little example

in

in

het

 

Nederlands.

Dutch.

Dit is een voorbeeldje in het Nederlands.

This is a little example in   Dutch.

`This is a little example in Dutch.' (Should think about something better than a non-breaking space. Maybe {}?)

Now, providing a tooltip for the grammaticality asterisk is a good idea, but I feel that one character is a bit too tiny and it will be fiddly and unintuitive for a reader to hover their pointer over it. I'm not sure what's the best way to deal with this but again this is part of a bigger thing: there are other symbols that need explaining too (the null morpheme, equals sign for clitic boundaries, angle brackets for interfixes etc.). Do you have any suggestions? I was thinking of a little collapsible paragraph under a "show help" button somewhere around the interlinear text, and that would display the list of the special symbols used and their meanings.

What I'm thinking of is a somewhat less intrusive version of this (taken from Wikipedia:NavFrame):

*rām=ne

ram=ERG

āyā

came

'Ram came.'

help         

An asterisk * denotes ungrammaticality. An equals sign (=) delineates clitics.

As for the general question of avoiding parsing user input, I do see your point, but that's a simple no-no. There are edge cases, but these are too few (e.g. when the value of an attribute of a tag (produced by a nested template) contains a right angle bracket, or when the wikitext contains an unescaped left angle bracket) to justify shifting the complexity onto normal editors for all cases across the board. Besides, the parser could be rewritten if a suitable extension becomes available, or if someone writes Module:XML. Uanfala (talk) 22:39, 11 August 2016 (UTC)

Please comment on Talk:Gruffudd

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Infoling categories

Hi! I noticed you added the "Spanish Language" category, which I think is clearly right, and got rid of the "Linguistics" category for Infoling. Just querying (and I do mean neutrally) whether the deletion is the right idea, since I'd say Infoling is basically like the Linguist List for Spanish users; I originally added the category based on what the Linguist List page has. I'm still trying to get around to building this page properly, and since I'm pretty slow to get around to it, I appreciate you engaging. Please feel free to move this to Talk:Infoling if you think it's better there. --Mellsworthy (talk) 01:53, 13 July 2016 (UTC)

Yes, I think I was being overhasty. I'm bringing back Category:Linguistics and it should stay there until it gets replaced with a more specific one (Category:Linguistics mailing lists?) whenever that gets created. Thanks for pointing this out! Uanfala (talk) 07:36, 13 July 2016 (UTC)

@Mellsworthy: I've moved it to Category:Linguistics websites which I think is the best match at this stage. Uanfala (talk) 14:12, 13 July 2016 (UTC)

Mahra

See Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Mahra clan. Sorry but I thought all experienced contributors already knew that Raj sources aren't acceptable. I should have included "reliable" in my rationale and usually do. - Sitush (talk) 15:08, 13 July 2016 (UTC)

@Sitush: Sorry, I'm not an experienced editor and I don't know much about Raj-era sources. All I saw was that there were other sources around. Simply disagreeing with prod rationale, that's all. Uanfala (talk) 15:18, 13 July 2016 (UTC)

Nomination for Deletion of the page Anil Jha

Forgive me if the following message might be in disagreement with some of Wikipedia's policies for I am not an expert in these matters. @Uanfala :- I recently noticed that you have nominated an article, I had created, for deletion. Nominating a page for deletion solely because some unregistered spammer reverted your edits is truly un-Wikipedia like. In case you wanted to protect your edits from such reverts, you should have protected the page instead. And it seems that during the process, you have clearly violated Wikipedia's rule of Edit Warring and 3RR policy. So, consider this a warning and be notified that I shall report you for 3RR violation as soon as possible. Finally, I want to state that although some reliable sources are lacking on the internet, Anil Jha is a notable person within education sector in Nepal. So, I request you to take back your deletion nomination and we can work together towards improving the page and Wikipedia as a whole. Abhishek Jha Nepal (talk) 16:28, 13 July 2016 (UTC)

I've nominated it for deletion because I don't see any WP:SECONDARY sources discussing the subject, I've provided further details in my nomination. You're more than welcome to join the discussion there!

Most of the time I can't be bothered to nominate pages for deletion, but on the other hand it really isn't worth the effort to constantly keep vandals off articles that are likely non-notable. And this was highlighted by the "unregistered spammer from your city".

As for my "violation" of the 3-revert rule, you're free to bring it up at WP:ANI, but please have a look at WP:RS and WP:PUFFERY before calling my edits nonsensical. Thanks! Uanfala (talk) 16:26, 13 July 2016 (UTC)

Abhishek Jha Nepal substantially redacted their comment [1] after I posted the above response. Uanfala (talk) 22:26, 30 July 2016 (UTC)

Please comment on Talk:Rolfing

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Please comment on Talk:Aptronym

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Disambiguation tags on talk pages

Since we discussed it last, I believe that I've only added the tag a couple times. Of the two that I can remember, one was changing and existing talk page from a redirect to non-redirect, and the other was creating the page, as there was a redirect to that page. I have stopped the wholesale addition of the tags as we discussed. -Niceguyedc ^{Go Huskies!} 20:12, 21 July 2016 (UTC)

Apologies, Niceguyedc, I just had a knee-jerk reaction without remembering that I'd left you a message about that before, and without realising that the single case I came across must have had a good reason to be there. Uanfala (talk) 20:17, 21 July 2016 (UTC)

July

why are you deleting my view on Wiki Project Nepal? सरोज उप्रेती (talk) 10:42, 23 July 2016 (UTC)

I've explained it in my edit summary which you can view if you click on the "View history" tab of that page. Let me know if it's still unclear. Uanfala (talk) 10:55, 23 July 2016 (UTC)

Thanks

Thanks for clarifying and understanding on the Chamba Chukh Talk page. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Anujkaps (talk • contribs) 21:35, 30 July 2016 (UTC)

No need to thank me about that :) Uanfala (talk) 22:03, 30 July 2016 (UTC)

Deprodding of V. K. Adarsh

I have removed the {{prod}} tag from V. K. Adarsh, which you proposed for deletion. I'm leaving this message here to notify you about it. If you still think the article should be deleted, please don't add the {{prod}} template back to the article. Instead, feel free to list it at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion. Thanks!

Please be aware that the notability of this person is well recognized among a wide regional base within India. Unlike Western countries, the citations and popular recognition have a different value base and scale in societies of global south. Thank you for your understanding. ViswaPrabhaവിശ്വപ്രഭ^talk 04:31, 31 July 2016 (UTC)

Thank you for the explanation, Viswaprabha. I think you're raising an interesting point with this statement: the citations and popular recognition have a different value base and scale in societies of global south. I'm not sure I completely understand that, would you be able to elaborate? Uanfala (talk) 09:23, 31 July 2016 (UTC)

Greek terms in anatomy

Hey Uanfala happened by this discussion: Wikipedia:Redirects_for_discussion/Log/2016_July_6#Enkephalos Thanks for proposing it and trying to make this encyclopedia tidier. I'm an anatomy editor and didn't contribute because it seemed like the discussion was flowing anyway, but I just thought I'd drop a note about Greek terms.

Why are Greek terms listed as identifiers in many articles?

Most recorded anatomical knowledge was documented by the ancient Greeks, who were then studied by the Romans. Latin became the international language of science and with the rediscovery of anatomical knowledge after the dark ages, a lot of terminology relating to diseases and anatomy comes from Greek, via Latin, to us today.

Hence we have some very ridiculous situations, such as where the kidneys (germanic origin) receive blood from the renal arteries (Latin origin) and are filled with nephrons (Greek origin), the study of kidneys being nephrology (again GReek). The brain (germanic origin) consists of the cerebrum (latin) but when inflammed is referred to as a state of encephalitis, and when in development is refered to in parts such as the mesencephalon (Greek origin). So that's why we put the identifiers in the articles - they're very useful terms that relate to many accessory words relating to each anatomical object. I've heard it said there are 20,000 latin and Greek-derived words in medicine and this would not surprise me.

Hope you find that useful and interesting. I learn something interesting on Wikipedia almost every day and thought I might spread the joy :). --Tom (LT) (talk) 12:36, 19 August 2016 (UTC)