Talk:World Trade Center controlled demolition conspiracy theories

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Popular Mechanics

Is Popular Mechanics some sort of scientific journal? I don't understand how their analysis can be used as "proof" of anything.2CrudeDudes (talk) 13:11, 11 September 2011 (UTC)

~Popular Mechanics is a very well respected publication in the field of engineering whether you agree with their analysis of the situation or not. TheMadcapSyd (talk) 02:47, 12 September 2011 (UTC)

-No it is not. It serves more like an entertainment magazine, replete with predictions of what we will be driving in the future like hovercars and such. On one hand, the article talks about peer-reviewed scientific journals and the next it is citing Popular Mechanics....

67.71.58.61 (talk) 18:31, 3 November 2011 (UTC)

It's actually a little of both. ----DanTD (talk) 03:33, 7 August 2012 (UTC)

Popular Mechanics has a lot of stories leading you to believe in UFO's, unfortunately, I can't say that in the article because it would be WP:OR, original research, and I can't find an "reliable source" (WP:RS) article debunking Popular Mechanics for the tabloid journalism that it is. Raquel Baranow (talk) 18:14, 14 January 2016 (UTC)

It's pretty much the only journal that bothered to go to the trouble of authoritatively debunking the obvious nonsense peddled by Truthers. Guy (Help!) 18:01, 15 January 2016 (UTC)

The Term "Conspiracy Theory"

Total waste of time and bandwidth by someone who can't assume good faith or comprehend the idea of "mainstream" because that's not what they're here to do
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
I want to point out that this is a theory, not a conspiracy theory. Truth be told, the accepted narrative about what happened on 9/11 is a conspiracy theory. It proposes that a conspiracy of foreign nationals flew planes into buildings and so forth. It is a conspiracy theory that happens to be true. On the other hand, the theory about controlled demolitions isn't necessarily a conspiracy theory. It is a theory about how the buildings may have come down that is different from the accepted narrative. Who may have planted the bombs / thermite / whatever there is not determined by the theory. One might say the government, or one might say it was Al Qaida. But terming this theory a "conspiracy theory" is a way to discredit it from the get go. For the record, I do not believe the theory of controlled demolitions. But slanting the theory as merely a conspiracy theory, in the negative sense, does us no favors. This is a structural problem with the article itself. A fairer article would term it a theory, and explore along the way how some people dismiss it as a conspiracy theory in the negative sense. 202.62.73.138 (talk) 09:03, 3 January 2016 (UTC) You have that precisely the wrong way round. A group of foreign nationals conspired to fly jets into WTC - that was a conspiracy to commit acts of terrorism. It's not a conspiracy theory because it's factual. The controlled demolition "theory" is an arse-backwards rationalisation that starts by discounting the obvious and erects in its place a structure of ad hoc hypotheses to arrive at the pre-existing "conclusion" of malfeasance. That is a conspiracy theory in its classic sense. And it's time for the Truther community to get over it and move on. Guy (Help!) 09:43, 3 January 2016 (UTC) "The Structural Engineering community rejects these theories." I don't believe this claim can be supported — Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.61.181.15 (talk) 06:55, 14 November 2016 (UTC) It is worth noting the obvious conflict of interest in the NIST report, and that their models were kept secret in spite of Freedom of Information Act requests. NIST's work has not been peer reviewed. Popular Mechanics bases the entire article on the NIST report. To suggest that these two organizations independently examined the evidence is misleading. It does not imply in any way that the scientific community generally accepts the standard explanation. This article should acknowledge that the scientific community has not reached consensus. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.61.181.15 (talk) 07:39, 4 December 2016 (UTC) It makes little sense to claim the CD theory is generally accepted to be wrong solely on the basis of people who would have a conflict or interest in claiming otherwise. This article does not make a compelling case for the existence of a large number of scientists who independently reject the CD theory. NIST report has caused controversy among physicists and engineers. NIST has acknowledged that it is unable to explain the free fall in the collapse of WTC 7. The P M article and other articles that reject CD theories carefully ignore this piece of evidence which in itself makes a very strong case for CD. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.61.181.15 (talk) 07:49, 4 December 2016 (UTC) The title of this article is absurd and absolutely non factual. One thing is "controlled demolition theory" - the theory that claims (wrongly or not) that the buildings went down by a controlled demolition. another thing is: "controlled demolition conspiracy theory" - the theory that claims (wrongly or not) that the buildings went down by a controlled demolition in the context of a certain conspiracy. As far as i know, the controlled demolition theorists that stick to the technical and factual analysis of the 9/11 don't analyze the "conspiracy context", they only analyze if the buildings went down by plane, controlled demolition, or whatever other technical cause. They don't analyze the facts of why, who, and when conspired to bring the buildings down. The conspiracy subject is not the subject of many controlled demolition theorists. So the article title is highly innacurate and it doesn't reflect its content that only analyzes and describes the theory that claims (wrongly or not) that the buildings went down by a controlled demolition. Simple logic. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 109.49.178.239 (talk) 23:04, 26 January 2017 (UTC) Leaving aside the necessity for a conspiracy to accomplish the conjectured demolition, the reliable sources used by Wikipedia for content references call it a conspiracy theory. The reason the conspiracy enthusiasts don't analyze motivation is because isolating the controlled demolition idea on its own keeps up a pretense of serious commentary rather than conspiracy promotion, obfuscating the obvious questions of who and why. This effectively whitewashes the decidedly anti-Semitic tone of many of those who have speculated on those who are supposed to have been conspirators. Acroterion (talk) 02:11, 27 January 2017 (UTC) first, you analyze the facts and be open to all possibilities for a conjectured demolition or a not conjectured demolition, then, secondly, one should take a stance about a possible conspiracy. Doing it the other way around is a blatant logical fallacy and a unreliable way to conduct any investigation. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.245.69.89 (talk) 09:24, 27 January 2017 (UTC) No, on Wikipedia you use a consensus of reliable sources, treating fringe views as they are viewed in mainstream media. Wikipedia is designed to preclude personal analysis, and is not a vehicle for "investigation." Wikipedia is by design not open to all possibilities. Acroterion (talk) 12:22, 27 January 2017 (UTC) I did NOT say that Wikipedia is for personal analysis or investigation. What I DID say is that if you want to make an article about the the theory of "controlled demolition" you SHOULD NOT make an article about the theory of "controlled demolition in the context of conspiracy". They are two different things. Even if a "conspiracy" is the only possible cause of a "controlled demolition" of the WTC, in the sense that they are interconnected in space and time, they are two completely separate and different subjects, even if one leads to the other. Also note that the Article in question doesn't have a chapter about the "conspiracy" theories that its subject refers to. This article talks only about technical stuff (explosives, thermite, etc...), not conspiracies, not a single line about political or social theories of the alleged conspirators, the Article it's completely contradictory with its own title. To pretend that no conspiratorial context exists concerning the postulated deliberate and pre-planned demolition of buildings full of people (after being having been hit by airplanes), and concurrent with two other attacks, is ludicrous. Acroterion (talk) 03:41, 28 January 2017 (UTC) Every event in the course of human interaction involves conspiracy. To label something as a "conspiracy theory" is to suggest that is a fringe theory, far from proven, and probably not true. This is not the case with the demolition of the world trade center. It simply *is* a demolition. I would consider that scientific mainstream. I find it very strange the Wikipedia does not report accurately on this. There are two possibilities: they are willfully complicit in the cover-up - or they are unable to suspend trust in authority long enough to see that this was plainly a controlled demolition. At least they should knowledge the magnitude of the group of scientists pushing for truth. These are not people who normally dabble in conspiracy theory or revisionist history. The fact that so many respectable scientists are convinced that this as a demolition deserves attention. "Reality takes precedence over public relations for nature cannot be fooled" -- Richard Feynman — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.188.115.27 (talk) 07:29, 23 February 2017 (UTC) Perhaps "tinfoil haberdashery" would be more appropriate than "conspiracy theory." "Utter delusions" possibly insults otherwise reasonable people who just need medication by associating their condition with conspiracy theorism. "Absolute error" still implies a relationship (if negative) to reality that many conspiracy theories lack. We're not going to go for 'politically correct' hogwash like "alternate facts," either. Ian.thomson (talk) 07:36, 23 February 2017 (UTC) Ian.thomson - your refusal to look at the evidence instead of tossing around insults suggests you are part of the cover-up. I mean it's pretty simple stuff - a building cannot crush itself at free fall acceleration. Free fall implies 0 resistance. I have yet to hear anyone explain how that can happen without explosives. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.188.115.27 (talk) 07:52, 23 February 2017 (UTC) Can I suggest that the IP editors take a look at WP:FRINGE, WP:UNDUE, WP:NPOV, and WP:V? Boomer VialHolla! We gonna ball! 07:56, 23 February 2017 (UTC) Sure. But at the end of the day there is no ministry of truth and the individual is forced to evaluate source based on hi/her own intuition. How do we know the NYT is reliable? Because it says so in the NYT of course! I am hoping to appeal to common intuition that the WTC was brought down by demolition. That is in fact very easy to see if you just watch the video. Having convinced yourself that it was a demolition you will realize that the msm is not free. If it were, it would have reported this fact already. So the least wikipedia could do is admit that this is not a settled issue. That there is a huge number of respectable scientists speaking out against the government. That the government does not always tell the truth - that the msm is not independent. As it is, wikipedia is just part of the propaganda machine on this issue. They make it seem as tho this is a settled issue. And citing popular mechanics is so weak - that's not a peer reviewed journal. The case against cd theories revolves around one engineer - Bazant. There are many more engineers who support controlled demo theories— Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.188.115.27 (talk • contribs) Hello Mr IP editor, you caught me. I'm secretly a Jewish/Catholic/Mason patsy working for our Satan-worshiping reptilian overlords from Alpha Draconis. Now that my cover's blown, the powers that be will just have to wipe out everyone involved. You should avoid any further replies, as that will only make it easier for them to track you. Ian.thomson (talk) 08:03, 23 February 2017 (UTC) Your confounding several different theories. There are thousands of architects, engineers, and scientists who support the controlled demolition theory. These are not the same people who study reptilians etc. You are trying to taint the truth movement by associating it with other conspiracies and ignoring the fact that it is rooted in hard science — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.188.115.27 (talk) 09:04, 23 February 2017 (UTC) You talk as though the idea is widely presented as credible by the majority of mainstream academic and journalistic sources, which it's not. You can't pretend that it's just one author and only the NIST when all mainstream sources agree with the reality of the NIST's findings -- to do so is either dishonest or insane, hence my refusal to address you seriously. Either present professionally published mainstream academic or journalistic sources that argue against it being a conspiracy theory or quit wasting everyone's time and bandwidth. Ian.thomson (talk) 09:17, 23 February 2017 (UTC) No reliable sources, just wasting everyone's time and bandwidth http://www.europhysicsnews.org/articles/epn/pdf/2016/04/epn2016474p21.pdf http://www.ae911truth.org/ http://www.voltairenet.org/article194344.html http://www.scientistsfor911truth.org/mempages/Margulis.html http://www.zerohedge.com/contributed/2012-09-15/911-mysterious-collapse-wtc-building-7-was-not-inside-job Just to list a few — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.188.115.27 (talk) 09:35, 23 February 2017 (UTC) No I do not talk as if a majority of mainstream sources give credibility to this idea. I'm saying there is a reason they don't. And Wikipedia is ignoring the credible people who present the demolition theory. The fact is, there are many more engineers who support the demolition theory than those who don't - if you exclude the ones who are working for the government. Mainstream news sources are not an authority on engineering issues. They are an outlet for government propaganda. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.188.115.27 (talk) 09:50, 23 February 2017 (UTC) Mainstream sources do not *agree* with NIST through independent analysis. They simply *report* NIST's findings and *assume* they are correct. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.188.115.27 (talk) 09:55, 23 February 2017 (UTC) http://www.journalof911studies.com/wtc-destruction-an-analysis-of-peer-reviewed-technical-literature/ — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.188.115.27 (talk) 10:00, 23 February 2017 (UTC) http://www.express.co.uk/news/weird/709000/Was-9-11-an-inside-job-Call-for-TRUTH-over-Building-7-collapse-on-eve-of-15th-anniversary — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.188.115.27 (talk) 10:04, 23 February 2017 (UTC) http://www.journalof911studies.com/volume/2008/TheMissingJolt7.pdf — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.188.115.27 (talk) 10:11, 23 February 2017 (UTC) https://www.c-span.org/video/?320748-5/washington-journal-architects-engineers-911-truth http://www.ae911truth.org/images//PDFs/Peter_Ketcham_EPN_LTE.pdf — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.188.115.27 (talk) 10:18, 23 February 2017 (UTC) http://911speakout.org/wp-content/uploads/2014SepLetterSzambotiJohns.pdf https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daniel_Orr — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.188.115.27 (talk) 10:30, 23 February 2017 (UTC) Good criticism of the NIST report from acclaimed scientist: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O0fkDmi78Og — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.188.115.27 (talk) 10:54, 23 February 2017 (UTC) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I7oti6KGEf4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TM_l_4sJ-sY https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7P3_TboFltI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gJy7lhVK2xE https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4-3FQtZnk2A https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zceJhfYV69M https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u5IgqJXyLbg — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.188.115.27 (talk) 11:12, 23 February 2017 (UTC) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=23n0Vr_A1TQ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c0QEutd1Unc https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3WCcSHpvAJ8 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V4y6cweaegI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WKUaxyd7x0I https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rxztmVmthWg — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.188.115.27 (talk) 11:28, 23 February 2017 (UTC) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z_S5wx7_d20 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n6ExxYOPYNU — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.188.115.27 (talk) 11:38, 23 February 2017 (UTC) Absolutely none of those are reliable sources. Boomer VialHolla! We gonna ball! 12:09, 23 February 2017 (UTC) This is clear evidence that the engineering community does not generally accept the standard collapse theory. Regardless of the interviewer, these scientists and engineers have credentials. What makes A&E911 Truth an unreliable source? Wikipedia cites a paper by a single engineer Bazant as proof of its claim? what makes him a reliable source? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.188.115.27 (talk) 19:11, 23 February 2017 (UTC) How is Lynn Margulis, recipient of the National Medal of Science, not worth anything? Why is Popular Mechanics more reliable than Europhysucs News? I would like to see an equivalent number of engineers/scientists outside of the government who can defend the official collapse theory. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.188.115.27 (talk) 19:19, 23 February 2017 (UTC) The Washington Journal is not a reliable source? Wikipedia is not a reliable source? Did you even look at all these links? Who decides what is a reliable source? I thought the whole point of Wikipedia was to transcend the bias of mainstream sources. There is a large number of engineers/scientists who disagree with NIST's findings. This article should reflect that. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.188.115.27 (talk) 19:27, 23 February 2017 (UTC) I understand it is not WIkipedia's job to determine the truth of this theory. But they should accurately represent the nature of the movement. These sources confirm that a large number of scientists and engineers believe the CD theory. Whether or not they are correct, wikipedia should cover AE4 9 9 11 truth, Scentists for 9 11 truth. They aren't even mentioned here. You make it sound like Jones is the only one. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.188.115.27 (talk) 19:47, 23 February 2017 (UTC) What part of MAINSTREAM ACADEMIC OR JOURNALISTIC sources do you not understand? Those websites do not represent the mainstream engineering community -- it is either dishonest or insane to pretend the engineering community as a whole "does not generally accept" reality (i.e. the "collapse theory"). A number of the figures you cite, such as Lynn Margulis, are not engineers and that you would bother citing them gives us little reason to believe that you even know what an engineer is. That you ask if Wikipedia is a reliable source proves you have no clue what a reliable source is, even after the concept has been explained and linked for you repeatedly. That you continually refuse to even figure out reliable sources are but instead spam conspiracy theory bullshit is a sign that you're not here to improve the encyclopedia, you're just here to peddle your X-Files fantasies. And yes, reliable sourcing has been explained to you: MAINSTREAM ACADEMIC OR JOURNALISTIC sources. The link has more information. Like it or not, you are advocating a conspiracy theory that Wikipedia is not going to create artificial validity for. Ian.thomson (talk) 23:46, 23 February 2017 (UTC) Mainstream sources place this subject firmly in fringe theory territory. Architects & Engineers for 9/11 Truth and the like are disregarded by their professional peers and disowned by their professional organizations. We have articles on them too. Wikipedia doesn't "transcend the bias of mainstream sources." You're in the wrong place for that, there are innumerable Internet fora where you can transcend as much as you'd like. As previously and exhaustively discussed, Europhysics News has disowned the 9/11 material and changed their policies. You have proposed nothing new. Wikipedia isn't a forum for conspiracy enthusiasts and is not a place for promotion of causes or fringe theories. Acroterion (talk) 23:52, 23 February 2017 (UTC) I am not attempting to present reliable sources to prove that the CD theory is true. I am presenting sources to show that the engineering community has not reached consensus. I have an issue with the following statement: "The structural engineering community rejects the controlled-demolition conspiracy theory. Its consensus is that the collapse of the World Trade Center buildings was a fire-induced, gravity-driven collapse, an explanation that does not involve the use of explosives." The citation for this is a single paper by Bazant. There is much controversy surrounding this paper and many believe it to fraudulent. Either way it does not speak for the engineering community as a whole. Also I think their is misunderstanding about the nature of allowable citations in this article. This article as it stands cites many sources which you would claim to be non-mainstream: C-span interviews with David Ray Griffan, Engineering papers by Jones. For example "Active Thermitic Material found in WTC Dust" is used as a source. These sources are used to describe the nature of the movement: who are its members and what are they saying. These points are not controversial. The fact that many professional engineers are outspokenly opposed to the NIST report is not controversial. The sources I presented are first hand statements by engineers. These sources are reliable in determining the viewpoints of these engineers just as an C-span interview with Ray Griffin is reliable in determining Griffin's viewpoint. Just as a paper published by Stephen E Jones is a reliable source for determining what Steven E Jone's view is. These papers and books as well as cites like countercurrent.org are already used as citations in this article. These are not mainstream sources, but they are still cited in this article. You declared my C-span interview with Gage to be unreliable yet there is a C span interview with Griffin already cited here. My main point is this: "The structural engineering community rejects the controlled-demolition conspiracy theory. Its consensus is that the collapse of the World Trade Center buildings was a fire-induced, gravity-driven collapse, an explanation that does not involve the use of explosives" does not a source to back it up. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.188.115.27 (talk) 04:21, 24 February 2017 (UTC) The fact that you tried to hide the links I provided when they are not that different to links already cited in this article suggest a conscious effort to hide the truth on this subject. I repeat "The structural engineering community rejects the controlled-demolition conspiracy theory. Its consensus is that the collapse of the World Trade Center buildings was a fire-induced, gravity-driven collapse, an explanation that does not involve the use of explosives." IS FALSE. "Consensus" implies that (almost) everyone agrees. And yet there are thousands of dissenters, some of them quite outspoken. This article deliberately downplays and covers up this fact. Bazant seems to be just about the only non-government engineer who is willing to defend the official theory. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.188.115.27 (talk) 04:34, 24 February 2017 (UTC) Editor is clearly WP:NOTHERE, and refuses to comply or acknowledge any of the policies, or arbitrary sanctions around such highly-controversial topics. Boomer VialHolla! We gonna ball! 04:40, 24 February 2017 (UTC) You have non-mainstream sources already cited all over this article. You have a C-span interview with David Ray Griffin. You said the C-span interview with Richard Gage is not reliable. You have the Daily Mail as a source and you declared the Daily Express to be unreliable. I want an answer to this. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.188.115.27 (talk) 04:50, 24 February 2017 (UTC) And I want a real citation for "The structural engineering community rejects the controlled-demolition conspiracy theory. Its consensus is that the collapse of the World Trade Center buildings was a fire-induced, gravity-driven collapse, an explanation that does not involve the use of explosives" — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.188.115.27 (talk) 04:54, 24 February 2017 (UTC) I just notice that Architects and Engineers for 9 11 Truth is already listed as a source for this article! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.188.115.27 (talk) 05:01, 24 February 2017 (UTC)

Consensus?

This article claims the engineering community has reached consensus in agreement with NIST. It does not provide a source for this or acknowledge the scale of the dissenting group of engineers and scientists. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.188.115.27 (talk) 05:11, 24 February 2017 (UTC)

Given your views on "Bazant," (who co-authored the paper published in a peer-reviewed journal reviewing the extant sources), as well as you completely ignoring the American Society of Civil Engineers and the Institution of Structural Engineers (neither of which are government bodies) and the various academic sources cited in the article (e.g. Thomas Eagar), it's clear that no matter how many sources are provided, you will just claim that it is just that author's view while pretending that the exceptions (and questionable exceptions) found on conspiracy theorist sites represent a significant portion of the engineering community. Quit wasting everyone's time and bandwidth, you are not getting your way here. Your tendentious behavior is not acceptable and will not be tolerated much longer. Ian.thomson (talk) 05:16, 24 February 2017 (UTC)

Please provide sources for those statements. The links provided don't lead anywhere. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.188.115.27 (talk) 05:26, 24 February 2017 (UTC)

I'm describing citations already in the article!

The full citation that is already in this article for Bazant includes a co-author and is published in a peer-reviewed journal. This article already mentions the ASCE and the ISE, and cites their works. This article already cites scholars such as Thomas Eagar. Asking for a citation to prove that those citation are in the article is sheer trolling. If you are unable to access the materials cited in the article or are unable to comprehend them, that's your problem.

Stop asking stupid questions, you're not making other people look bad with them. Ian.thomson (talk) 05:36, 24 February 2017 (UTC)

Also the dissenting engineers are not "Conspiracy Theorists." They are professional engineers who have never before researched "conspiracy theories." And they are far more numerous than the engineers who defend the government theory. Neither group speaks for the majority of engineers. The majority of engineers are silent on this issue. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.188.115.27 (talk) 05:30, 24 February 2017 (UTC)

They disagree with mainstream engineers and scientists, and make claims that would involve a shadowy conspiracy to execute and cover up -- they are conspiracy theorists. They do not outnumber the sources cited in peer-reviewed journals, nor the ASCE and ISE (whose jobs are to speak for the majority of legitimate engineers!), it is an insane trolling to claim that those conspiracy theorists outnumber mainstream sources -- otherwise, they would be be the mainstream. Ian.thomson (talk) 05:36, 24 February 2017 (UTC)

How exactly do distinguish a "mainstream" engineer from a non-mainstream one? lol. You have not provided sources for the ASCE, ISE claims. There is almost no literature in peer reviewed journals defending the official collapse theory. Bazant and one or two others. I sent links to at least 5 - 10 professionals who support CD theory. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.188.115.27 (talk) 05:46, 24 February 2017 (UTC)

The dissenting petition has thousands of signatures from professional architects and engineers. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.188.115.27 (talk) 05:50, 24 February 2017 (UTC)

You have not provided sources for the ASCE claim. Thus your entire proof of the engineering "consensus" rests on Bazant and Eagar. Yet there are thousands of engineers who disagree. How can you claim there is a consensus.