Talk:T. Rex (band)

Lead- late October 2016- early November 2016

I wrote it a few months ago but it seems that someone who has got a lot of time on his hands has decided to change certain tracks mentioned in the lead. I chose to name the songs that went number one in the UK single charts: if these songs that are number one are not hits, which ones are. Woovee (talk) 00:58, 2 November 2016 (UTC)

Hello, it was I who made the edit and please don't worry about my spare time as I am a very fast typist.

As you say, the number one hits were Hot Love (six weeks), Get It On (four weeks), Telegram Sam (two weeks) and Metal Guru (four weeks). However Ride A White Swan, Jeepster, Children Of The Revolution and Solid Gold Easy Action all made it to number 2 (all of these except COTR being held from the top spot by a seasonal novelty record) and 20th Century Boy made it to number 3. These other top 3 hits are all equally considered major anthems in both Bolan's career and rock music at large (20CB in particular has been widely touted as a "classic rock anthem" since Bolan's death). The Groover and a reissue of Tyrannosaurus Rex's Debora made it into the Top 10 at 4 and 7 respectively, while several lower-charting tracks are often cited as "Top Hits" of Bolan's, especially I Love To Boogie in the light of its revival as part of the Billy Elliot soundtrack.

However, as a compromise gesture, I have changed the text to specify number one hits rather than just the vague term "Their hits included ...". 95.151.169.47 (talk) 18:23, 11 December 2016 (UTC)

RfC on Disputed Reformations section

Myself and Woovee disagree about the inclusion of a short section in this article about the bands Mickey Finn's T-Rex and X-T. Rex (formerly Bill Legend's T. Rex) which feature former T.Rex members (and either currently or formerly featured members of the "classic" 1971-1973 lineup) and which both promote themselves as reunions of T.Rex.
Woovee's opinion is that these bands should not be mentioned in the T.Rex article as they are irrelevant and an offence to the principle that there can be no T.Rex without the involvement of Marc Bolan and that such a section only serves to promote these two bands.
My opinion is that these bands both have their own Wikipedia articles (and one of the two is undoubtely Wiki-notable, the other at least deserves a redirect) and so are significant spin-offs of the band regardless of their authenticity as T.Rex lineups, and that in any case "No Bolan No T.Rex" is a POV. Romomusicfan (talk) 08:15, 3 July 2019 (UTC)

Of course "No Bolan No T.Rex" is a POV. And they should be mentioned in the article for the same reason why the article about Queen doesn't end abruptly with Freddy Mercury's death or why the the article on Velvet Underground includes the album Squeeze. Go ahead and mention the skepticism of some fans regarding the "authenticity" of the bands if there are good sources to cite on the issue, but mention the bands and don't let musical purism leak into Wikipedia. PraiseVivec (talk) 11:21, 3 July 2019 (UTC)

The comparison between Queen and T. Rex is not relevant. --> All members of Queen wrote songs for each album, Queen had the same line-up during all their existence. Bolan was the only songwriter of Tyrannosaurus Rex / T. Rex. Bolan fired many musicians. Mickey Finn was fired in 1974, far before the end of the career of T. Rex.

User PraiseVivec is a newbee[1] who has never edited/added a note to an article about music. This rfc should be discussed with longtime wiki users who contribute a lot on music articles.--Woovee (talk) 16:38, 3 July 2019 (UTC)

And user Woovee is a fanboy who is going to let his fanboyism get in the way of writing a proper encyclopedic article. I've edited several article about music, from Calypso Rose to Carlos Díaz "Caíto", if you really must know, but I never claimed that bands don't exist because the guy I like wasn't in them, so I really hope other editors won't stand for this kind of nonsense. PraiseVivec (talk) 13:04, 4 July 2019 (UTC)

The comparison you did with Queen is completely irrelevant and problematic and shows how little you know about the history of T. Rex. Sorry, but you haven't worked in depth on GA or FA music-related articles like I did,[2] you made a few cosmetic changes. Woovee (talk) 15:40, 4 July 2019 (UTC)

I did include a source for this; the following interview quote from a prominent figure in Bolan fandom:
"I know, being a fan myself, that most people in the UK would not accept any other band that call themselves T.Rex, and rightly so. How can there ever be a band called T.Rex when there is no Marc Bolan? Impossible! Marc was T.Rex!...Most fans would agree with me: no Marc Bolan, no T.Rex!"
John Willans aka Danielz, lead singer of prominent T.Rex tribute band T.Rextasy interview 17 September 2010 by Claudia A, Music News, 21 September 2010
I do agree that sympathy for this position should not spill over into wiping any mention of MF'sTR (and X-T.Rex and any similar projects which may emerge in future) from the T.Rex article.62.190.148.115 (talk) 14:42, 3 July 2019 (UTC)

Promotion?

Romomusicfan's edits fall under wp:promotion for an on-going project as they wrote, "former T.Rex members (and either currently or formerly featured members of the "classic" 1971-1973 lineup) and which both promote themselves as reunions of T.Rex". Woovee (talk) 20:11, 3 July 2019 (UTC)

The term '"classic" 1971-1973 lineup did not appear in the article. You have actually quoted from my summary above. I used the term there and in an edit summary and see no big deal about this as the Bolan/Finn/Currie/Legend lineup is commonly referred to in similar terms - it having produced nine of the band's eleven Top 10 hits and all three albums to make the UK Top 5 on initial release. Indeed, the four are given the top line treatment on the T.Rex template

Here is the actual final text for the Disputed Reformations section. I defy anyone to find anything "promotional" about it:

“ Since Bolan's death there have been two attempts to reform the band with former members. Since Bolan was the only member to have appeared in every T. Rex lineup as well serving as the band's lead guitarist, lead singer and main songwriter, fans of the original band have generally rejected the authenticity of these line-ups, treating them at best as tribute bands.

In 1997 former bongo player Mickey Finn formed Mickey Finn's T-Rex which also included former T. Rex guitarist Jack Green and drummer Paul Fenton who recorded and toured with the band briefly. This band has also included former Smokie guitarist Alan Silson and Saxon guitarist Graham Oliver. Following Finn's death in 2003 the band continued on as T. Rex (A Celebration of Marc and Mickey) until a petition signed by Bill Legend, Tony Visconti and David Bowie, among others, forced them to revert their name back to Mickey Finn's T-Rex with his family's blessing.

In 2014, Legend put together his own version of T. Rex, initially known as Bill Legend's T. Rex but now known as X-T. Rex and also billed as T. Rex with Bill Legend and T. Rex with Bill Legend feat. Danny McCoy. This band has toured Europe and was expected to record a new album. Legend is the last surviving member of T. Rex's best-known lineup and indeed of any lineup of T. Rex or Tyrannosaurus Rex prior to its mid-1973 commercial decline (with the possible exceptions of July 1967 debut gig musicians Cartland and the unknown bassist, neither of whom has been traced and both of whom were reportedly considerably older than Bolan or Took).

”

2.28.124.81 (talk) 23:48, 3 July 2019 (UTC)

Do you work to promote those tribute acts on wikipedia? It sounds like you do. You haven't added anything else on the article apart messing up with this section mentioning those tribute acts. Woovee (talk) 00:10, 4 July 2019 (UTC)

Have you got any evidence to support these baseless accusations of bad faith or are you just casting aspertions? 2.28.124.81 (talk) 00:21, 4 July 2019 (UTC)

You haven't replied by a no. What are your motives apart to desesperatly want to fill a section about those tribute acts ? You haven't added anything else on this article, you make wp:disruptive edits. Had you edited before and added historical content under your registred account, we could assume wp:good faith from your part. Woovee (talk) 00:31, 4 July 2019 (UTC)

If that's what you want, then no, I don't work to promote these acts. I didn't originally create that section either, although I did work on it to make it more encyclopedic and think that it should stay. I've done plenty of other work on the article - see our 2016 discussion above. I also worked on the timeline graphic (mainly combating vandalism to it) and the Tyrannosaurus Rex section in the past.2.28.124.81 (talk) 05:55, 4 July 2019 (UTC)

And since you're the one, Woovee, that is making all the accusations of promoting (and disruptive editing - which edits?) the onus is on you to provide hard evidence to support your claims.62.190.148.115 (talk) 07:25, 4 July 2019 (UTC)

"the onus is on you" :) you seem to know a lot about wikipedia for an user who has never been involved in discussions. Woovee (talk) 12:26, 4 July 2019 (UTC)

I've been editing since about 2009 and been on WP talk pages for pretty much as long, most of it logged out, some when necessary using the account (created 2011). This still doesn't explain where you base your claim that I am working as a promoter - for two bands which clearly are rivals for market share! 62.190.148.115 (talk) 13:14, 4 July 2019 (UTC)

And the community is supposed to trust an user who constantly changes of ips. "I did work on it to make it more encyclopedic and think that it should stay.". No, this section was not encyclopedic in any away and contains poor English words. This section would also be obsolete when these two tribute acts are no more. One of these tribute acts (X-T. Rex) is already dead for more than 5 years (the url of the website is dead) and the other one, is promoted by drummer Paul Fenton who only played one song on Bolan's Zip Gun (which is notoriously known to be the less attractive album of the T. Rex catalogue). This section is a farce. You did promote [Paul Fenton's] T Rex tribute act, de facto as you wanted to bring the section back in the article, this week. Woovee (talk) 19:41, 4 July 2019 (UTC)

I've been entirely open about the fact that these IPs are all me - it's not like I've tried to pretend to be several people - quite the opposite in fact. I'm in a hurry right now but I can post the link to the WP essay "Notability is not temporary." so it is irrelevant whether bands are still going or who has left. 2.28.124.81 (talk) 05:55, 5 July 2019 (UTC)

WP:NOTTEMPORARY - there. 62.190.148.115 (talk) 07:38, 5 July 2019 (UTC

I have entirely legitimiate reasons for wanting to bring back that section (on ALL the "reunion" bands) because I think it is relevant and worthy of inclusion and should not be blanked out of Wikipedia to satisfy the POV of another editor regarding Bolan fan politics. (Indeed the controversy over these bands is in itsef a good reason for their meriting a short section. Tony Visconti doesn't get up out of his seat and join in just any old controversy in Bolan fandom.)2.28.124.81 (talk) 05:55, 5 July 2019 (UTC)

)

Historical facts and the roles of Mickey Finn and Bill Legend

Whatever, here are a few historical facts concerning T. Rex:

• Bolan was the only songwriter of Tyrannosaurus Rex/T. Rex (1967-1977). Bolan hired Mickey Finn in late 1969 for Tyrannosaurus Rex's fourth album A Beard of Stars, Bolan fired Finn in 1974. Similarly, Bolan hired Bill Legend in 1971 and fired him in 1974. T. Rex then kept on recording many albums far after the departure of both Finn and Legend.

One could compare the history of T. Rex to that of Robert Smith of the Cure or even Billy Corgan of the Smashing Pumpkins: Robert Smith was the only constant member of his band: most of the impetus came from him and no promoter could bill the Cure without Robert Smith on stage. T. Rex's case is even more emblematic; as Robert Smith shared the songwriting with several musicians. Bolan didn't, he wrote everything, all the songs. If our readers read the articles about Mickey Finn and Bill Legend, they'll learn that each one of them keeps on playing Bolan songs in concert. Concerning the Smashing Pumpkins, Corgan also wrote all the songs. The three remaining members of the Doors toured in the 2000s unde the umbrella of the Doors because no member had been fired of the group before Jim Morrison's death. Woovee (talk) 20:11, 3 July 2019 (UTC)

A statement beginning "One could compare ..." is not a fact.

Here's a fact, however: There were not "many" albums after Mickey Finn left; there were just two (and only three after Bill Legend left). 2.28.124.81 (talk) 23:48, 3 July 2019 (UTC)

You haven't addressed anything to the comparisons with The Doors and the Smashing Pumpkins.

The last two T. REX albums Futuristic Dragon and Dandy in the Underworld were both hailed by the press upon their release. Both albums also received favourable retrospective reviews as well. Those tribute bands that you'd like to see mentioned in the article, didn't bill any concert under the T. Rex moniker back then between 1975 and 1977 as they would have been sued by Bolan.

BTW, three ground breaking albums had been already released before the arrival of Finn in 1969. Bolan was the only constant member of the band in 10 years and the one and only writer of their music. Only Bolan chose the line-up and decided who could play with him in the group. Your information about those tribute acts belongs to the articles about Mickey Finn and Bill Legend. Woovee (talk) 00:10, 4 July 2019 (UTC)

Futuristic Dragon was savaged by critics and got just one week in the charts at #50. Even Marc distanced himself from it, saying that it was recorded quite some time back and he wished he'd made it heavier.

"Ground-breaking" - now look who's using "promotional" language, although I would agree to a fair extent (fans of the Incredible String Band might disagree)

Incidentally, Mickey Finn's T-Rex actually own the copyright to the T.Rex bandname, although they stopped using it due to public outcry. Apparently, nobody had actually bothered to register the trademark until they came along ...2.28.124.81 (talk) 00:19, 4 July 2019 (UTC)

This conversation leads nowhere: had you not recognized the historical value of the first three Tyrannosaurus Rex albums released before the arrival of Finn, this won't gonna work. Futuristic Dragon (1975) was a robust return to form, as Mojo journalist/Bolan historian Mark Paytress wrote it. Bolan TV show "Marc" in 1977 was a success, then Finn and Legend had been fired for a long time. You still haven't addressed anything to the comparison made with the Doors and the Smashing Pumpkins. Woovee (talk) 00:40, 4 July 2019 (UTC)

"By no stretch of the imagination a great album" (Geoff Barton, Sounds, 1976) hardly sounds like a ringing endorsement and the line about Marc distancing himself from the album comes from one of Paytress's two biographies (IIRC the first). I do agree that this is leading nowhere, it has nothing to do with whether or not a short section on alleged reunions of the band should be included in the article.62.190.148.115 (talk)

"The album [Futuristic Dragon (1975)] comprised the strongest set of songs Bolan had assembled since The Slider, there was a real sense of passion on cuts like "Chrome Sitar" and "Dawn Storm", a depth of feeling [...]; and the return of Visconti-esque strings" (Mark Paytress Record Collector magazine March 1984). "The album defies expectation, presenting a surprisingly consistent set of tunes" (Popmatters- [a retrospective review]), "Futuristic Dragon has enough winning moments to suggest an upturn". (Pitchfork [a retrospective review]).

"'Dandy in the Underworld'[1977] recaptures Bolan's former spiritedness, [...] the album finds a reinvigorated Bolan crafting some of his best hooks and calibrating his catchiest grooves in years." (Pitchfork, [retrospective review]) Woovee (talk) 18:08, 4 July 2019 (UTC)

Much of Paytress' work is hagiographic towards the memory of Bolan. Not that there is anything wrong with being a fam, but his retrospecitve reviews hardly prove the idea of a grand glorious run of creative and commerical success which vastly outlasted Finn and Legend's time in the band.62.190.148.115 (talk) 07:54, 5 July 2019 (UTC)

Bolan as sole musical leader

Bolan is the only musician who contributed to the songwriting. He formed the band, released three albums before the arrival of Finn and Legend, and released two more albums after their departure. Bolan and Bowie did a duet in 1977 for a tv show, he was still recognized by his peers, and the new generation of punk musicians. ~

I'm asking the question once again: the Doors toured after the death of Jim Morrison using the Doors umbrella because there was only line-up during all the existence of their group and the Doors were formed by the members, no one had ever been fired (This is the same situation as Joy Division). Do you see the difference with T. Rex? Woovee (talk) 12:35, 4 July 2019 (UTC)

This is nothing to do with whether MF's T-Rex and X-T.Rex are authentic continuations of the band, it's about whether they are significant enough in the subject of T.Rex to merit a collective section on the T.Rex article. If we're going to go on about comparable cases then two better examples than the Doors would be Thin Lizzy and Lynyrd Skynyrd, both of which were reactivated years after the resepctivfe deaths of Phil Lynott and Ronnie Van Zant. The Johnny Van Zant version of Skynryrd seems to be reasobaly accepted as a legimate continuation. The post-Lynott version of Lizzy is treated as questionable by Thin Lizzy fans but not subjected to the same sheer venom Bolan fans reserve for the two "reunion" bands. Nonetheless there is no call to scrub the articles on the original bands of any mention of the posthumous versions - in fact both articles treat the reunions as legitimate continuations. I'm not even calling for that in T.Rex's case, just a brief section on the general subject with links to the reunion bands' articles. 62.190.148.115 (talk) 13:27, 4 July 2019 (UTC)

The comparison between Thin Lizzy and T.Rex is not relevant either as Thin Lizzy was formed by several members/songwriters whereas T. Rex once again was formed by only one person who was its one and only songwriter in 10 years.

The parallel with Lynyrd Skynyrd doesn't work either for the same reasons as there were several founding members in Lynyrd Skynyrd and several composers too.  :::Peter Hook of Joy Division is doing at the moment a tribute act of Joy Division but this is not mentioned on the Joy Division article. There is a "Post-Thin Lizzy projects" section at the Thin Lizzy article because there were several founding members/songwriters. Woovee (talk) 16:08, 4 July 2019 (UTC)

Thin Lizzy and LS were both led by a single alpha indivisual whose identity dominated the band's orignal life time. Lynott and Van Zant could say "I AM the band!" without fear of any opposition.2.28.124.81 (talk) 05:56, 5 July 2019 (UTC)

Also although Marc was sole credited songwriter, the Bolan/Took lineup was largely portrayed to the public at the time as being an equal partnership and Took had a lot of input into the arrangement of songs - he created his own backing vocals and percussion parts around Bolan's songs. In theory Mickey Finn inherited Took's vote in the band although in practice his input was limited to his distinct bebop-influenced style of bongo playing which impacted on the beat and thus overall feel of many T.Rex tracks.62.190.148.115 (talk) 07:48, 5 July 2019 (UTC)

IP User/User:Romomusicfan

Are Romomusicfan and the ip the same user ?

yes they are as Romomusicfan has never edited on the T. Rex article and they did not make a lot of edits on wikipedia[3]. Woovee (talk) 20:11, 3 July 2019 (UTC)

Not that it's really relevant but yes, I am Romomusicfan. I logged in on this occasion because, correct me if I am wrong, I believe you have to be logged in to start an RfC. As it says on my user page, I "Only generally uses this login when (I) really ha(ve) to and prefer just editing using an IP address." No mystery here.

Incidentally, I'm also the same person who replied to you in 2016 in the thread about number one hits above this one on the talkpage. 2.28.124.81 (talk) 23:48, 3 July 2019 (UTC)

So you used two different ips and maybe even more to edit/revert on this article. From now, it would be better to edit under a registred account as many reverts were made on the article. Woovee (talk) 00:19, 4 July 2019 (UTC)

I edit from a variety of locations (home, work etc) and usually can't be bothered to log in. Big deal.00:23, 4 July 2019 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2.28.124.81 (talk)

FWIW I sometimes edit logged out to make minor edits when I'm away from my main computer, but I always log in to have a discussion, because it's otherwise impossible to keep tabs on who you're talking to. I don't really care if you call yourself "Shark Infested Custard Monster, Volume III" as long as the handle is consistent. Anyway, reliable sources such as the Guinness Book of 70s music (just to pull the first random one off the shelf) state that T. Rex ended with Marc Bolan's death, and while tribute bands featuring former members or sideman can be mentioned if they are documented in such sources, they are still tribute bands. For another example, the current touring incarnation of Thin Lizzy stresses it is a tribute band, will not record any new material as it would be disrespectful to Phil Lynott and indeed have recorded together under another name instead. Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 11:16, 5 July 2019 (UTC)

"Reunion" band articles

After reading Mickey Finn's T-Rex and X-T. Rex, any longtime wiki contributor would agree that those articles would be deleted. It is not because there is an article present on wikipedia that this article is worth to be included in an encyclopedia. Anyway, I'm gonna check out this case very closely as it is patent that the entourage of those tribute acts are doing lobbying on wikipedia, and so their views are biased. Woovee (talk) 20:11, 3 July 2019 (UTC)

Mickey Finn's T.Rex article passes WP:MUSIC on account of criteria #6 "Is an ensemble that contains two or more independently notable musicians," - there are several on there but for the purposes of this debate I shall restrict myself to (1) Mickey Finn (2) Jack Green. Also, although the article could admittedly do with more references, there are three different sources, all independent of the band, mainly concentrating on the controversy surrounding the band, which are just barely enough to pass criteria #1 "Has been the subject of multiple, non-trivial, published works appearing in sources that are reliable, not self-published, and are independent of the musician or ensemble itself"

X-T.Rex, I have already conceded, should probably be a redirect to Bill Legend, but even then this would be a project by an important member in the history of the band, covering the band's former material and as such worthy of a brief mention in the main T.Rex article.

For what it's worth, I think there is a possible case also for throwing in a mention of the late Dino Dines's appearances with T.Rexstacy as part of the section. 2.28.124.81 (talk) 23:48, 3 July 2019 (UTC)

No the articles about these tribute bands should be deleted. They are not encyclopedic. Woovee (talk) 00:15, 4 July 2019 (UTC)

Then create AfDs on both of them and see where you get. (I would vote Keep for the MF's T.Rex article and Merge To Bill Legend for the X.T.Rex article) 2.28.124.81 (talk) 00:27, 4 July 2019 (UTC)

More input from others

Okay, you've all read Woovee and myself going at it, but what we need is more input from other editors to gain a wider consensus on the issue. Over to the rest of you ... 62.190.148.115 (talk) 07:32, 4 July 2019 (UTC)