User talk:Happy-melon

The big yellow "you have new messages" banner was created for a reason. If you want my attention, edit this page. If I want your attention, I will edit your page. If I just want to reply out of politeness, I'll do it here and save interrupting whatever you're doing... if you're interested in what I said, watch this page and find out. If I'm keen to see your response, I will be watching your talk page, or wherever I suspect you might post it. But if you have something to say you think I need to read, the big yellow banner is kind of hard to miss...

How do I...

I'm trying to edit an article, and the writer of the article suggested that I could copy it into my sandbox, work on it, and copy the revision over the original. Do I just highlight, copy, and paste, or is there a special way to just "pop" it over where I want it? Damn, I cannot wait to stop being such a newbie! I keep picturing the lovely day when simple procedures do not balk me. --SkyllaLaFey-- (This will be "unsigned", because I'm using my laptop and the special little squiggle key is broken!) —Preceding unsigned comment added by SkyllaLaFey (talk • contribs) 02:40, 20 March 2008 (UTC)

Copy and paste is the most effective and efficient way. Somewhere in the huge box of mostly useless special characters below the edit screen is one for the "special little squiggle key" (that really brightened up my day :D). Or it might be one of the buttons up the top - I can't remember (I've hidden all the extraneous stuff from my edit window). Happy‑melon 18:38, 20 March 2008 (UTC)

Template talk:Editprotected#Changing formatting

Hi. I'm guessing the above was written with my edits in mind. Fortunately, the page was still on my watchlist.
Following my contribution, I looked at the page on IE and Firefox and saw no problem. Since, though, the edits were some straightforward formatting, I wasn't surprised. Will there ever come a time when Wikipedia is able to sort out the strangely wide spacing between lines other than those in paragraphs of article text? Sardanaphalus (talk) 16:24, 21 March 2008 (UTC)

Hi, and yes, it was. Essentially the problem with your edit is not the fix itself (I'm not sure exactly what you considered broken so I can't comment on its effectiveness) but rather that by using overly-specific formatting you made it more difficult for the rendering to be customised to work on a wide variety of browsers. Wikipedia's biggest problem with page display is the vast range of browsers and appliances used to access our content. Do you have any idea, for instance, how your version would have displayed on a PDA or iPhone? Neither do I, but the chances of it going horribly wrong are dramatically increased by using formatting that is optimised specifically for one or even a couple of browsers. The more generic the formatting, the more easily disparate browsers can interpret it to produce, if not quite what the author had in mind, at least something that doesn't look hopelessly awkward. I'm not saying that your formatting definitely did break on browser X, just that unless you've checked every possible configuration (a virtual impossibility) you can't know, and to be safe you're always best off going for the more generic formatting. Happy‑melon 17:12, 21 March 2008 (UTC)

I guess I don't like going for the generic formatting when it works against the encyclopedia's legibility, at least as far as desktop/laptop computers are concerned. Not so much with the {{editprotected}} template, but with e.g. wrapped lines within templates that look like separate entries. Perhaps a "simplify formatting" filter for PDAs, iPhones, etc, rather than a cramping on style elsewhere. Thanks for your thoughts. Sardanaphalus (talk) 18:50, 21 March 2008 (UTC)

Removed nbsp (and therefore COinS) from Cite journal template

It seems that you inadvertently removed nbsp in this edit. Can you please add it back? --Karnesky (talk) 23:24, 22 March 2008 (UTC)

That's really wierd - it certainly wasn't deliberate: I know how much of a mess attempts to change that nbsp have already made :D !! Happy‑melon 10:36, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

In any case: thanks for fixing it! --Karnesky (talk) 13:50, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

Copyright tags and copyright issues

Hey Happy-melon, I've been thinking - particularly after nobody really participated in our brief discussion of image tags, and all of my involvement in other aspects of copyright issues, that we ought to get ALL (not just speedy) copyright & image tags organized and create some place to explain clearly what tags to use when (and maybe even why). I'll start this in my userspace if you think it's a worthwhile effort not duplicating work others are currently doing (I know there's a lot of reorganizing going on at CSD). Let me know.--Doug.^{(talk • contribs)} 01:16, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

Organising our massive and burgeoning collection of image copyright tags, particularly the fair use ones, is a titanic task that I know I don't have the tenacity to complete - although I'd support to the hilt anyone who was game to try it. I think as soon as we've got the new CSD templates in place I'll take the di-series to TfD and get them redirected. Coppertwig is already champing at the bit to reorganise the CSD warning templates. My next project is going to be the pp-series, which are used for marking protected pages. So yes, if you're up for it, you'll have my full support, although it's not something I would have the determination to attempt myself. Happy‑melon 10:43, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

BTGProject template

Many thanks for the work on the {{BTGProject}} template. One question that I haven't been able to figure out... How can I change it so that Lists can still have an importance rating? With the newly modified template, lists can't seem to have such an importance rating, or they get the "NA-importance" 'rating'. I think that most lists are going to receive a "low" rating, but I'd like to leave the possibility that the occasional one or two might get a "high" rating for example. Thanks again. --Craw-daddy | T | 22:14, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

You'll find the answer to that buried in a cascade-protected template subpage that's got 109 conditional statements in it, so don't beat yourself up over not finding it! Thanks for pointing that obvious silliness out though - I've updated the set of quality categories which don't need importance assessments, so lists should now require an importance rating. Happy‑melon 22:28, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

Thanks once again, but I'm not sure that everything is quite sorted out. (Of course it might just be one of those things that I have to wait a while for it to be automatically fixed up in due time.) For example, have a look at Talk:List of SPI games. The project box says "low" importance, but the category at the bottom of the page says "NA-importance". Sorry for being such a pain in the rear. --Craw-daddy | T | 23:43, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for pointing that out - I'd only updated one of the two switches in that subpage; now that I've done the other, the problem should be fixed. Happy‑melon 10:05, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

OK, you can go ahead!

See Wikipedia talk:Criteria for speedy deletion#Section break 4. --Coppertwig (talk) 23:44, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

{{pp-meta}}

Hi Happy-melon. I have left responses for you at Template talk:Pp-meta#Too abstract?.

--David Göthberg (talk) 02:54, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

Hi, would you mind taking a look at the changes I've made to {{pp-meta/sandbox}}? I think it's nearly ready for use, but I'd appreciate your input at Template talk:Pp-meta. Thanks, Nihiltres^{t.l} 16:58, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

My CSD-U1

Hi. Thanks for telling me why I can't delete my "secret page". However, is there any way I can do so? Other criteron? After all, could I not simply move the page from User Talk: into User: and then {{csd-u1}}?

Thanks in advance,

Mⁱc_rochip ⁰⁸ 13:57, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

P.S. Do you want a go trying to find my secret page [ones that haven't been tagged with Template:Tlx-csd-u1]]? Be prepared to spend 15 minutes on it... :D

You could quite happily PROD them - I doubt anyone's going to object. Or MfD. They're just not really applicable to any CSD category. Incidentally, User:Microchip08/Extremely obvious - but I have far too little patience for things like this :D. Happy‑melon 14:33, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

Great, thanks. Oh, and there's always the cheater's list... Mⁱc_rochip ⁰⁸ 14:48, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

Deletion of User talk:Nicholas Perkins/Archive Aug 2007 and User talk:Nicholas Perkins/Archive Sep 2007

I should have noted on the pages that the information has been moved through to User_talk:Nicholas_Perkins/Archive/2008/Feb. However if it is a question of the page history then no problem.

In either case I will blank the pages in question. Nicholas Perkins (T•C) 13:57, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

Yes, you should have noted that using the |rationale= parameter, but no worries. If you still want them deleted, just let me know - it seems no history will be lost. Happy‑melon 14:34, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

Sorry for the oversight. I'd appreciate if you could delete both for me. Thanks again. Nicholas Perkins (T•C) 06:37, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

Can editors be given an option on journal volume font?

I just noticed articles getting bit by that change. Please see Template talk:Cite journal #How about giving editors an option? for a suggestion. Thanks. Eubulides (talk) 21:39, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

Template:Db-g12

This edit: [1] broke the user notification line, see: Template talk:Db-meta#Wrong parameter on user message.  Andreas  ^(T) 23:32, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

fixed.  Andreas  ^(T) 14:41, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

Banner shell on Adolf Hitler

I like the other version better too, but with this many projects it just takes up too much space. Also the documentation for the shell templates specifically say not to just go switching from one to the other based solely on your own opinion, so kindly don't do that. Especially hiding it in another edit and neglecting to mention it in your edit summary. Thanks much. Equazcion •✗/C • 13:09, 25 Mar 2008 (UTC)

I did mention the conversion to 'nested' format in my edit summary, and there is no subsitute for being bold. However, there's certainly no justification to edit war over it, and I'm not that fussed one way or another, so we can leave it as it stands. Thankyou for retaining the most important part of that edit, which is that ArticleHistory should not have been included. Happy‑melon 13:53, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

Okay. Sorry for my accusatory tone but it looked like a "sneak" to me :) Nevermind then. Equazcion •✗/C • 14:08, 25 Mar 2008 (UTC)

Unauthorized task

Hi,

I've proceeded to block MelonBot as running an unauthorized task. No BRFA have been failed for the "px" fix task, and I have no idea of what made the bot do this [2], somebody said the phrase "waste of system resources" and may very well correct in his assumption, but I'm looking forward to your response on the subject. Snowolf ^{How can I help?} 02:09, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

One thousand subpages is absolutely excessive and is a waste of system resources. I have no idea what's going on here -- no BRFA that I can find, no mention on the bot's user page, and I can't fathom a possible reason for needing all of those subpages. If I could "doubly block," I would. But Snowolf beat me to it. --MZMcBride (talk) 02:12, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

Wow. So, from what I can tell, this bot work was to resolve the pxpx issue. What I can't seem to be able to figure out is why, if Template:Click was causing an issue, that Template:Click wasn't simply fixed. Do a quick validation for the width parameter to see if it's an integer, if so append px, if not leave the parameter alone. It's a remedial if-then-else statement that would require one edit to a template rather than thousands of edits.

In addition to all of these issues, it seems that the regex you used is borked: example. --MZMcBride (talk) 06:58, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

For a background on the issue, please read Wikipedia:ClickFix. The template was broken in a manner that no one could think of a way to easily "fix" using the tools we have available. Any method of coding the template in the new environment would cause it to break in one or other format, except the esoteric hack MZMcBride describes, which I can't off the top of my head think how to code using the parser functions we have available, and no one thought of last night. The issue is not restricted to {{click}} - Category:ClickFix maintenance categories contains half a dozen categories filled by my simple maintenance code. Category:Infobox Airline needing ClickFix contained over three hundred entries last night, all of which have now been fixed without such a hack. The issue was causing problems with thousands of pages. I acted quickly to make the issue as easy to resolve as possible. I asked for alternative ideas well before starting MelonBot on this construction project, and alerted VPT before it was even 10% complete. Naturally I would have appreciated any alternative suggestions; as I said on WP:BN, it's not exactly like I wanted a thousand pages in my bot's userspace.

MZMcBride's fix to {{click}} makes continuing MelonBot's run through Special:WhatLinksHere/Template:Click unnecessary, so this task will not be continued. As such, I would like to request that you unblock MelonBot. Naturally I could do it myself, but that would be inappropriate :D. Many thanks in advance, Happy‑melon 12:52, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

Hi, I don't mind unblocking your bot, but, I want to make sure we're clear on the bot policy. "Bots must be approved before they may operate.". This is for good reason. If unblocked, will you seek approval in the future, for tasks that you are not approved for? SQL^{Query me!} 13:16, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

I reserve the right to run bot tests and minor tasks in its userspace, but I accept that the approval process is there for a good reason; MelonBot will not run substantial tasks that have effect outside its userspace without suitable approval. Happy‑melon 13:21, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

No, you will not run any tasks that have effect outside its userspace without suitable approval. And, even if a bot is working only in user space, it is often still appropriate to get approval. If that's going to be followed (ie - if you're going to follow policy), I see no problem with unblocking. Martinp23 13:27, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

Reasonable. I wasn't trying to wriggle, I was just thinking of activities like the CSD template update, which I would simply have done under my own account if I didn't have a bot-flagged one. But if policy and, more importantly, the community's interpretation of policy, is that such trivial tasks should be approved, then I shall seek approval for them: MelonBot will not perform any tasks which have effect outside its uerspace without suitable approval. Happy‑melon 13:48, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

1,000 user subpages would have substantial effect even though they're in userspace. Equazcion •✗/C • 13:25, 26 Mar 2008 (UTC)

I don't agree; they represent 0.001% of the English Wikipedia's total page count, 0.0005% of its total edit count, and (at a rough guess) 0.000000001% of the total size of its text table (assuming an average page-size of 5kB). They did not appear in Special:RecentChanges or the default view of Special:Newpages; and unlike BCB's null edits which ended up on the mainpage, these pages aren't going anywhere. Plus they serve a useful function - admittedly not as useful now as they were before MZMcBride offered the alternative fix, but still valid. They haven't stopped working just because there's a more elegant solution out there. Happy‑melon 13:34, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

The point, of course, being that in the future, you should not run a bot that creates 1,000 user subpages without first seeking approval. The outcome of this particular instance notwithstanding. Equazcion •✗/C • 13:36, 26 Mar 2008 (UTC)

Again, I do not agree. We are not a bureaucracy, the approvals process is not there for its own sake. It is there to prevent bot operators using their bots in a manner which damages the encyclopedia (something which MelonBot has regretably and inadvertently done here in as much as use of an improperly-written regex caused edits like this, which I have now (AFAIK) fixed by hand). If a bot were routinely creating thousands of user subpages without approval for no apparent reason, that would be different. If a bot were creating hundreds of thousands of user subpages, that would again be different. But if editing {{ambox}} isn't going to crash Wikipedia, making a thousand new pages with a single period in them certainly isn't. If I ever feel the need to create a thousand user subpages again, you can be assured that there will be a good reason for it. And if it is likely or even possible that the operation will have any effect outside userspace, I will request approval. But I will not clutter up Wikipedia with needless paperwork to run MelonBot in its own userspace. Happy‑melon 13:48, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

The approval process is there so that bot owners such as yourself won't take the decision upon themselves as to what will and won't damage, or be a burden on, Wikipedia; as well as, I should add, on its administrators, who shouldn't need to keep tabs on bots to make sure they aren't doing things they're not supposed to be doing. I wonder how many more pages this bot would've created had it not been blocked. The approval process is there for a reason and you can't just declare your right to ignore it in certain situations. Dare I say, that's why nobody's unblocked it yet. If you want to lobby for a userspace exception to the bot policy, then do so, at the policy's talk page; but making a declaration here doesn't excuse you from it. Equazcion •✗/C • 15:36, 26 Mar 2008 (UTC)

I am sure that any potential unblockers are indeed awaiting the outcome of this exchange. In answer to your question, the answer is "none" - the bot completed its assigned task of creating exactly one thousand user subpages, and would have created no others. I had been intending to avoid mentioning it, but it did not escape my notice that this block was instituted when the bot account had been completely inactive for over four hours. This issue may have been confused by the fact that two tasks were running simultaneously: firstly, the creation of those user subpages, and secondly, a regex find-and-replace run across all pages transcluding {{click}}. To clarify, the block was (as far as I am aware) instituted primarily because of the second task, some edits of which were corrupted by a poorly-written regex, which was furthermore unapproved. I have accepted above that that second task was inappropriate without approval, and will not be continued or repeated; nor will other tasks which involve editing pages outside MelonBot's userspace.

It is clear that we have differing opinions on how the bot policy applies to bots' edits in their own userspace. While the bot policy represents the codified rules, bot operation, like all areas of Wikipedia, is also governed by consensus and precedent. As such, and since I very much doubt we will reach any agreement here of our own accord, I will request, and naturally be bound by, clarification from one or more members of the Bot approval group: to what extent is a bot permitted to perform edits in its own userspace without explicit WP:BRFA approval, provided that those edits are clearly performing a useful function? Happy‑melon 16:18, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

I'll venture to guess that their answer will be far less than the creation of 1,000 subpages, even if they're in userspace. But, they are of course the ones to ask, and I'm glad you're willing to do so. So I'll just await their response. Please post a link to that request once you've made it. Thanks. Equazcion •✗/C • 16:28, 26 Mar 2008 (UTC)

{{BAGAssistanceNeeded}} :D Happy‑melon 16:30, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

I've always been of the opinion that userspace is OK so long as it's within policy (ya know, WP:NPA, and friends), and it's not abusing system resources. For something "extreme" (20epm is extreme, as is 1000 subpages @ 20epm), "when in doubt ask" is probably the best way to go. SQL^{Query me!} 20:12, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

By the by, I've unblocked your bot. I think you understand what's going on here. I would have gotten to it earlier, but I was AFK. SQL^{Query me!} 20:16, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

If testing in userspace is okay without bot approval, that should probably be added to the bot policy. Equazcion •✗/C • 20:35, 26 Mar 2008 (UTC)

Thankyou very much for that clarification, SQL. Happy‑melon 21:02, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

Frankly, you seem to be missing the point. A software change was made that broke some things -- it happens from time to time. And you took initiative to find a solution to the problem, which is great. However, had you run your ideas past other BAG members in a bot request for approval, one of them undoubtedly would've asked "Why the hell are you creating 1000 subpages?" Another member would've probably taken a look at the template syntax and found the solution that I did. Instead, you created all of these subpages, ran an unapproved bot to do so, and that bot also used bad regex which ended up breaking pages. And then you tried to defend yourself with a "this is not a bureaucracy" statement. Absolutely not.

I see that you also tried to argue that this isn't a waste of system resources because the amount in comparison with the whole is pretty negligible. Of course, you're right, the reality is that 1000 extra subpages isn't going to crash the servers or put the Foundation into bankruptcy. But when you consider the fact that everything you use is donated and that these pages were essentially useless, it becomes a different story. --MZMcBride (talk) 18:45, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

I'm certainly missing your point, or perhaps more likely we're missing each other's. Certainly my solution was not the most elegant, and perhaps a member of BAG would have proposed a more efficient alternative. Perhaps, however, the BRFA would still be sitting there and infoboxes across wikipedia would still be displaying mile-wide images. We'll never know. What surprises me most is that the part you appear to be taking the greatest offence at was the part which didn't damage the encyclopedia! I could extend your thought process to note that, yes, everything here is donated, including my time, your time, and MelonBot's server-time; but I have no interest in participating in a philosophical argument over who owes a debt to whom. MelonBot damaged Wikipedia through an unapproved, faulty regex, is sorry, and won't do it again. That, in my opinion, is "the point". Happy‑melon 21:02, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

Barnstar of Intrepidity

		The Barnstar of Intrepidity
		I, Coppertwig, would like to award you, Happy-melon, this Barnstar of Intrepidity for leadership and syntaxcraft in templatiferous territory during the development and implementation of the new versions of the CSD templates.

Don't forget to share the honours with MelonBot. :-) Regards, --Coppertwig (talk) 03:07, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

Thanks! Happy‑melon 17:15, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

Restore interlang links on RC please?

I've found them useful ... if it is a community decision, please let me know where the discussion was held. Thanks. --Aphaia (talk) 09:53, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

Banners

Pls remove your change and discuss on talk.[3] SandyGeorgia (Talk) 22:47, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

Thanks, I hope you saw WP:FCDW/March 24, 2008; there are two different shells already. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 22:54, 26 March 2008 (UTC)