Talk:Expelled: No Intelligence Allowed

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Minnesota Screening

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I would add this information, but I don't have permission:

PZ Myers, one of the misled interviewees, was expelled from seeing Expelled. He had a ticket and was waiting in line to see a screening. The movie theater and the producers of Expelled threatened him with arrest if he didn't leave the theater's property immediately. However, Richard Dawkins was allowed in. http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/2008/03/expelled.php. 71.65.218.184 (talk) 02:07, 21 March 2008 (UTC)

Or, to rephrase it (I'd file it under "Scrrenings":

On Marth 20, 2008, PZ Myers went with a group to see one of the first public previews of the movie, but was stopped by the theater management and threatened with arrest if he did not leave the property. Ironically, they made no effort to exclude his family members or his guest, the even more vocal critic of intelligent deisgn Richard Dawkins.

71.41.210.146 (talk) 03:50, 21 March 2008 (UTC)

I find this incident amusing and ironic too, but I don't see how its notable enough, at least yet, to be in an encyclopedia entry. Wikipedia is not a livejournal. If this becomes a major event in the public perception of the film, it will have it's place. For now, it's just funny, but not yet notable. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.189.197.62 (talk) 03:54, 21 March 2008 (UTC)

Fair enough; give it a few hours. It just happened; the news reports will come tomorrow. 71.41.210.146 (talk) 04:53, 21 March 2008 (UTC)

Are you kidding? This is highly notable. PZ Myers was miselad when asked to be interviewed for the documentary Crossroads Expelled and then he's expelled by the producer when he tried to see the movie. How more notable can you get? Angry Christian (talk) 13:53, 21 March 2008 (UTC)

<reduce indent> Here's a neutral source I've found on the subject so far - http://blog.christianitytoday.com/ctliveblog/archives/2008/03/dawkins_crashes.html Angry Christian (talk) 14:24, 21 March 2008 (UTC)

I would hardly call Christianity Today "neutral" -- "unaffiliated with Dawkins or Myers" would be a better description. Hrafn^Talk_Stalk 14:53, 21 March 2008 (UTC)

You'll get no argument from me on that point :-) Angry Christian (talk) 14:55, 21 March 2008 (UTC)

The fact of the matter is that expelling Myers while admitting Dawkins is just too hilarious and makes for too good a piece of copy for the mainstream press not to pick it up. I'm fairly sure that a more prominent source will be along shortly. :) Hrafn^Talk_Stalk 15:07, 21 March 2008 (UTC)

Some have raised the possibility that this was intentional, to try to generate publicity and controversy, for what might be a project headed for disaster. Every indication I have is that the filmmakers are somewhat desperate here. Subsidizing schools to generate audiences? Touring the country trying to organize debates? Even turned away by administrations at Christian Universities as full of nonsense? The release date for the film slipping a few times?

In addition, it is sort of a dull subject, to be honest; a description of some academics who might or might not have been discriminated against. But we have no proof. And then a botched mangled confused mess of panspermia and creationism and intelligent design and theism and atheism and evolution and the Holocaust and Nazis and communism and abortion and so on and so forth, shoved in somehow.

I think that if they can get mainstream press, so much the better for them. So why wouldn't they try to do this? Pretty low risk, with potential high returns. These people are not stupid. And right now, the only thing that matters to them is getting butts in those seats when it comes out. The only thing.--Filll (talk) 15:49, 21 March 2008 (UTC)

This guy is keeping a list of links to all things PZ Gets Expelled By The Producers of Expelled. http://scienceblogs.com/gregladen/2008/03/pz_myers_expelled_gains_sainth.php Funny stuff if you have not been following it. Especially funny was the UM student and ID advocate who initially lied through his teeth about what he saw and later back tracked when it was obvious to all he'd been lying all along. Have any reliable sources come up with a theory of why ID seems to attract so many dishonest followers? There has to be a reason for this. Angry Christian (talk) 21:30, 21 March 2008 (UTC)

Not as far as I know, but the St. Paul Pioneer Press has covered the story so I've summarised the main points of their story in the article. ... dave souza, talk 23:26, 21 March 2008 (UTC)

Is it just me that's confused by the latest "screening" flap as it is described here, including the quotes of Dawkins used here? Original: "Dawkins described the event as 'a gift' and that they 'could not ask for anything better'. Current: "Dawkins described the event as 'a gift'and that '[w]e could not ask for anything better'." Pretend you do not know this story. Like our typical reader. So--What kind of a gift? to who? Who is "they"? Who is "we"? Myers and Dawkins? What sense does it make? None. Until you know that Dawkins is speaking of "we" as in "we who are active opponents to creationism" It would be nice, I think, if this article made some sense out of the quotes, rather than forcing the readers go to the original source to figure out what Dawkins is talking about. Readers need help here. Maybe remind of Dawkins' and Myers' earlier unwitting participation in the film, remind that they have since been very publicly critical of the film. And then when Myers is barred at the door from seeing it, aha! After all, wouldn't it be more informative to explain the event to talk about what Ruloff said?--admitting that the screening was limited exclusively to allied sympathetizers, calculated to stir up some favorable buzz toward the film? It helps to point out, anyway, that Myers wasn't turned away because he wasn't wearing a jacket or forgot his ticket or something, but was deliberately prevented because the filmmaker was deliberately shutting out critics. Professor marginalia (talk) 17:45, 22 March 2008 (UTC)

Hopefully, the recent edit clarified who Darwkins was referring to. As you say, the cited source reports Ruloff saying the screening was "in hopes of building favorable word-of-mouth among people likely to be sympathetic to its message.", but he goes on to say "People like Dr. Myers and Dr. Dawkins would not have been invited" when in fact it was an open invitation on the website. Myers took up the invitation and gave his full name, and his booking of seats was on that basis. As I understand, the promoters have now changed the procedure so that each seat has to be booked by name, instead of simply giving a number of guests wanting seats. What Ruloff meant was "we didn't think anyone unsympathetic to the film would take up our invitation, so we're now changing the procedure to expel those who disagree". All of which seemed to me to give undue weight to a fairly small incident, but perhaps we should cover it fully, with more sources added. .. dave souza, talk 18:13, 22 March 2008 (UTC)

There is a wealth of great information and links at the blog [1]

including this New York Times article on the event: [2]--Filll (talk) 18:43, 22 March 2008 (UTC)

I heard about it over at Usenet misc.writing.screenplays.moderated, and the blog says the AP picked it up, and there's references to violations of United States Code. We can certainly reach notability. MMetro (talk) 06:00, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

Minor correction to the initial comment: Meyers did not have a ticket. Nor did anyone else. It was an online sign-up, and there were no tickets. However, he did have a properly reserved seat made in his own name. So, people saying he was "gatecrashing" are either misinformed or lying, and people saying "he was not invited" are being disingenuous, since an invitation was not required and most people going at that time were not specifically invited either. -- HiEv 06:01, 2 April 2008 (UTC)

At least add the POV dispute tag

As the POV is under dispute, the page should be so tagged. I am unable to add the tag, so I'm requesting the help of a registered member. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.194.122.28 (talk) 06:27, 22 March 2008 (UTC)

I see nothing that justifies a POV tag. Guettarda (talk) 06:34, 22 March 2008 (UTC)

This article promotes the POV that ID=creationism, and that the premise of the film is false. Whether or not you agree with that POV, it is certainly not neutral. So I've added the tag. NCdave (talk) 10:31, 22 March 2008 (UTC)

Nope, the POV tag is for an ongoing dispute. Is there a dispute? Relata refero (talk) 11:49, 22 March 2008 (UTC)

(Just to be clear: that was a feeble joke.) Relata refero (talk) 11:50, 22 March 2008 (UTC)

Thank you for a much-needed smile, Relata refero.  :-) NCdave (talk) 12:17, 22 March 2008 (UTC)

I also see nothing justifying the tag, and User:NCdave seems determined to edit-war to leave the Scarlet Letter up, regardless of any actual merits or actionable requests. So start talking: why the tag? And no, don't try floating the already-rejected claims that ID =/=creationism, since that so far has convinced no one. --Calton | Talk 13:50, 22 March 2008 (UTC)

Do tell, why is the POV tag there? Tell us before we get into an edit war and someone gets sanctioned for WP:TE and WP:DE.--Filll (talk) 14:05, 22 March 2008 (UTC)

This article promotes the POV that ID=creationism, and also the POV that the premise of the film is false. Whether or not you agree with that, whether or not you are completely certain about it, it is certainly not neutral. NCdave (talk) 14:07, 22 March 2008 (UTC)

Oh how novel. Well I am sure you are aware of WP:NPOV which means we have to present, in large measure, the mainstream view of academia and science in this article. So that is why there is material discussing the falsity of the premise of the film: Because we are required to do so. Do you understand that? Because if you argue against that, that is WP:DE, and there can be consequences including sanctions for tendentious arguments against policy.

And I am sure you are also aware that we have numerous WP:RS that ID=creationism, such as several peer-reviewed journal articles, articles and books by world experts in creationism, and the ruling of a US Federal judge on the matter. So how are these not adequate to present ID=creationism, at least according to the preponderance of evidence? We even have a source or two from a creationist which states that ID=creationism. We even have an interview with the main character in the film, Stein, which indicates that ID=creationism. We even have interviews with the producers of the film where they indicate that ID=creationism. The promotion material for the film suggests ID=creationism. Perhaps you are so upset about this film suggesting ID=creationism, you want to organize a boycott?--Filll (talk) 14:26, 22 March 2008 (UTC)

The premise of the film (at least as suggested by the title) is apparently that religious academicians are too often deprived of academic freedom by folks who oppose, not just religious points of view, but the very legitimacy of religious beliefs, and even the right of fellow scholars to hold and express them. It is one thing to disagree with the correctness of a viewpoint; such disagreements can be congenial and intellectually stimulating. But it is another thing altogether to dispute the legitimacy of a viewpoint; that attitude makes conversation impossible. That problem is apparently what this documentary is about.

"Creationism," as the word is usually used, is a shorthand for "Biblical Creationism," which accepts the creation account in the Jewish & Christian scriptures as being to some extent authoritative. Intelligent Design is not Biblical Creationism. ID is a scientific viewpoint which posits that an ordered universe is not accidental, but rather represents the workmanship of an intelligent "watchmaker." While it is true that creationism (or at least old-earth creationism) is a particular sort of intelligent design theory, the converse is not true: intelligent design is not any type of creationism. It is a subset relation, just as string theory is a type of physics, but physics is not a type of string theory. NCdave (talk) 15:25, 22 March 2008 (UTC)

Intelligent Design is not Biblical Creationism - well, that depends on who's speaking. But that's beside the point. ID is one for of creationism. YEC is another. OEC is another. Islamic creationism is yet another. I don't see your point.

ID is a scientific viewpoint - nope. ID proponents claim ID is scientific, but there's no evidence to support that claim. Rather, there is a wealth of evidence that rejects that claim, including a court ruling.

While it is true that creationism ... is a particular sort of intelligent design theory, the converse is not true: intelligent design is not any type of creationism. - the problem seems to be that you have your facts muddled. Either get your facts straight, or provide authoritative sources to support your claim. Thanks. Guettarda (talk) 16:42, 22 March 2008 (UTC)

The article has reliable sources describing the movie as an intelligent design movie. We have numerous reliable sources who recognize intelligent design as creationism and religious. Knock off the disruption, NCdave. Angry Christian (talk) 16:03, 22 March 2008 (UTC)

Agree with Angry Christian. There are serious undue weight issues especially given a) the makers of the movie talking about it being about ID and being about "religious persecution" and b) Kitzmiller v Dover which ruled that ID was creationism c) the general scientific consensus. JoshuaZ (talk) 16:11, 22 March 2008 (UTC)

In two years this film will be less well-remembered than Howard the Duck; in the meantime however, AC and Josh bring up valid points. Expelled has linked itself to ID and therefore a discussion of ID is required; sorry if you con't like that NCdave, but that's reality. &#0149;Jim62sch&#0149;^dissera! 16:23, 22 March 2008 (UTC)

We have numerous reliable sources that indicate ID is a type of creationism, and not that creationism is a type of ID, including the ruling of a US federal judge. Also, we do not have to judge the film by its title; we have promotional material, multiple reviews, interviews and articles about it. So...--Filll (talk) 16:35, 22 March 2008 (UTC)

Also note that, as required by WP:V, the points that ID is a form of creationism and not science, that the film promotes the presentation of religious views in classrooms despite this having been ruled contrary to the "Establishment Clause" in a series of court rulings, and that ID in particular was ruled to contravene that constitutional requirement for public school science classrooms, have all been based on third party reliable sources making these points with specific reference to the film. NCdave has given us plenty of original research in his opinions, but no suitable sources. .. dave souza, talk 17:18, 22 March 2008 (UTC)

In the first place, the movie is apparently about academic freedom, not about the technical details of scientists' competing viewpoints. From the movie's promotional material, it does not appear that it delves into a defense of ID. Nor is there any evidence, to the best of my knowledge, that Ben Stein or the movie's producers advocate "presenting religious views" to captive audiences in K-12 classrooms.

Obviously, there are challenges to writing about an unreleased film. But perhaps one source of confusion could be that different people sometimes use the same terminology in different ways. What matters in the context of this article are the definitions that the movie's producers & backers use. So here's the Discovery Institute's definition of ID:

Q:What is the theory of intelligent design?

A: The theory of intelligent design holds that certain features of the universe and of living things are best explained by an intelligent cause, not an undirected process such as natural selection.[3]

Note well: there's no reference there to creationism, nor even to monotheism. But they go on to explicitly address the question of whether or not ID (as they define it) is a form of creationism:

Q: Is intelligent design based on the Bible?

A: No. ...

and:

Q: Is intelligent design theory the same as creationism?

A: No. ... (ibid.)

Obviously, the way that the Discovery Institute uses the term "intelligent design," it is not Biblical creationism.

Now, as you know, an organization's own description of its own positions is considered a reliable source on Wikipedia. So that's one suitable source.

But what about third parties? What do leading third-party experts say?

Dr. Ronald Numbers is an agnostic, a critic of ID, a past president of the History of Science Society, and the author of the most widely cited history of creationism (which Salon magazine calls "probably the most definitive history of anti-evolutionism"). But he says that the claim that ID is creationism "doesn't hold a lot of water."

Here's what he told Salon:

Salon: More recently, we've had the intelligent design movement. I know some people just see this as a new version of creationism, stripping away all the talk about God and religion so you can teach it in the schools. Is that true?

Dr. Numbers: There's a little bit of evidence to support that. But I think that both demographically and intellectually, it doesn't hold a lot of water. The intelligent design leaders are people, by and large, who do not believe in young earth creationism. [4]

Do you agree that that is a suitable source, Dave? NCdave (talk) 05:29, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

I think you're reading too much into this very equivocal statement NCdave. Numbers included a chapter on ID in the latest edition of The Creationists, and even added a subtitle of "From Scientific Creationism to Intelligent Design" to it. He would hardly do this if he believed that ID was not creationism. From the context of the statement, he was clearly more interested in contrasting ID with YEC, and drawing attention to disagreements between these creationist factions. Hrafn^Talk_Stalk 07:53, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

Numbers is in fact very careful to never explicitly state that ID is or isn't Creationism per se. In The Creationists he lists (p380) the accusations of many "opponents of intelligent-design" that ID is Creationism, but only contradicts one claim -- that ID and Creation science are interchangeable terms (as CS requires "a recent special creation and a geologically significant flood" -- a point on which I think he's perfectly correct). Hrafn^Talk_Stalk 08:05, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

<undent> Thanks for the source, NCdave, it's very interesting but, as Hrafn says, it's a rather equivocal refinement of the point rather than a refutation. It has the problem that it's not directly related to the topic of the article, and the third party reliable sources cited have explicitly described the topic of the film as promoting intelligent design which is called by them a form of creationism. The source is certainly valid as a clarification of the detail of that point, making it clear that ID is not confined to young earth creationism. Numbers was answering questions about his YEC background, and in that context it's right for him to say "that intelligent design leaders are people, by and large, who do not believe in young earth creationism", though some of the prominent leaders are YEC. Intelligent design is clearly creationism in the general sense of anti-evolution, while accommodating young earth and old earth creationism. So, I've no objection to adding that reference and amending the footnote to show that detailed point, but the well attested point that ID is a form of what many people call creationism stands. In particular, that usage of the term relates to the legal background, which as you'll appreciate is central to the question of whether ID or any other form of anti-evolution can be introduced in science classrooms. Since we're in general agreement, I'll remove the tag and trust we can continue this discussion to agree how to incorporate the point into the article .. dave souza, talk 11:00, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

I think that's right. "Creationism" has come to be almost synonymous with young-earth creationism (YEC). ID is clearly an attempt to create a bigger tent by remaining officially agnostic on the age of the earth, flood geology, and the other positive claims of YEC, while still repeating other common YEC arguments against evolution. But even so, many of the leaders of ID are also YEC advocates, and only Behe seems to accept common descent, even though ID *should* be compatible with theistic evolution (though Philip Johnson has argued otherwise, using what I've argued are contradictory claims, in the FAQ on Johnson's _First Things_ article at talkorigins.org). Lippard (talk) 03:52, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

This Wikipedia entry proves the point of his movie

{{hat|reason=Paranoid, baseless [[WP:SOAP]]. Yes the Evil Atheist Conspiracy ''is'' out to get you — time to put on your tinfoil hat.}}

Holy cow, if any article were a QED for the movie, this would be it. The movie is not about intelligent design, nor about Darwinism, nor about religion. Watch the trailer. The movie is about the squelching of dissenting viewpoints within the scientific and academic community... which is exactly what is happening in this Wikipedia entry.

Al Gore's An Inconvenient Truth is a controversial movie, and its Wikipedia article mentions the controversy near the bottom of the page. Michael Moore's films are controversial, and their controversies fork into new articles. Here, Ben Stein's film has not yet opened, and the lead paragraph pretty much declares -- quite unencyclopedically -- that the basis for his film is wrong, and anyone who watches it or believes it is an idiot.

Science is not monolithic. Consensus does not truth make (except on Wikipedia). Scrub this article from all the ready-made refutations and off-topic bloviating, and instead describe the film itself, the way the Gore and Moore entries do. Let Ben Stein's movie compete in the marketplace of ideas, rather than purposely try to torpedo ideas you don't agree with. 216.54.1.206 (talk) 14:47, 21 March 2008 (UTC)

Since no-ones bothering to reply, I won't move this post to the foot of the page in sequence where it belongs, but will merely note that the article reflects the reliable third party sources on which it is based, per WP:V. ... dave souza, talk 18:36, 21 March 2008 (UTC)

You are right, 216.54.1.206. If anyone doubts that the sorts of things this movie complains of could really happen, they need only look to this article, and its Talk page, for confirmation. NCdave (talk) 07:38, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

I've moved this new topic to the end of the Talk page, where it belongs. NCdave (talk) 07:39, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

hm, the movie appears to be complaining of the fact that most intelligent people think that "ID" is bogus. Well, most people do think it is bogus, so the movie certainly got that right. The problem is just with the implication that somehow there is something wrong with that. Academia sifts through ideas and rejects the useless ones. ID happened to be an useless idea, so it was rejected. Nothing wrong with that. You might as well complain about "No Vril Allowed" or "No Phlogiston Allowed". dab (&#55304;&#56435;) 11:35, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

{{hab}}

I think you are mistaken, Dbachmann, about the point of this documentary. Judging from the promotional material, the complaint is not mainly about the merits of any particular theories, but rather about well-qualified scientists and educators being deprived of their academic freedom, because of their religious views. The movie is about the stifling of non-atheistic viewpoints... just as viewpoints supportive of the documentary are being stifled here on Wikipedia.

Hrafn, please stop deleting other people's comments from the Talk page, and hiding them with {{hab}} templates. How can we hope to achieve WP:consensus if you will not allow other editors to discuss the article and its problems?

Also, I again ask of everyone here that you please not denigrate other wikipedians. That means you should not characterize their views or their religions as "useless" or "stupid," or any other derisive term. Dbachmann, that means you should not suggest that those who disagree with you are unintelligent, or that their ideas are useless. Hrafn, it means you should not call them "paranoid" or suggest that they have tinfoil hats, as you did in this comment. Doing so violates an ironclad Wikipedia rule: WP:no personal attacks, and impedes constructive cooperation. NCdave (talk) 06:57, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

NCdave: it made unsubstantiated accusations of persecution. It is thus legitimately "paranoid" under colloquial meaning on the word. It is also mere WP:SOAPBOXing, that has no legitimate place on this talkpage. Your unarchiving of it is thus disruptive editing. Wikipedia contra to your own repeated, tendentious accusations, does not "stifle" viewpoints, it merely IS NOT A SOAPBOX FOR FRINGE AND UNSUBSTANTIATED CLAIMS. Hrafn^Talk_Stalk 07:25, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

Dbachmann, you said that most people think ID is bogus, but did not give any source to substantiate your claim. Here is a reliable source that contradicts that. It is from a Gallup poll on human origins. Take a look at it. Briefly, the survey states that 14% believe that man developed without God (atheistic evolution), 38% believe that man developed with God guiding (ID), and 43% believe that God created man in present form (Creationism). Data has changed little since 1982. It seems to suggest that ID and Creationism are not fringe beliefs. JBFrenchhorn (talk) 09:15, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

Thank you JBFrenchhorn for misrepresenting this survey -- "believ[ing] that man developed with God guiding" could just as easily mean that they believe in theistic evolution as that they believe in ID. Hrafn^Talk_Stalk 12:03, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

Yes, it could mean that they believe in theistic evolution and not ID. The poll should have had four positions: Atheistic Evolution, Theistic Evolution, ID, and young earth creationism. That would have made it much easier to understand. As it is, both sides say it says a different thing. Saksjn (talk) 13:06, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

Well you would need a lot more then 4 positions and a lot more than one question to actually carefully characterize public beliefs. I do not believe that such a survey has ever been conducted, actually. It has been repeatedly shown for example that the vast majority of the US public cannot correctly choose the definition of evolution out of a multiple choice list.--Filll (talk) 13:40, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

JBFrenchhorn, I am not interested in gallup polls, even if you refrain from misrepresenting them. See WP:RS. The percentage of US Americans embracing ID is merely a gauge of the level of general education in US population. What Wikipedia is interested in is academic mainstream. If an appreciable percentage of USians think ID makes sense, it is the US education system that has a problem, not academia. Wikipedia is built to reflect academic mainstream. If you disagree with academic mainstream (e.g., you like ID), you are certainly free to do that (no persecution), but you cannot expect to be given any voice on Wikipedia (which is a privately owned website which only grants you permission to edit content provided you submit to its policies). ID is not just "a belief" like, say, immaculate conception. It is a religious belief that masquerades as science. No academic would be discriminated against because they religiously believe in immaculate conception. They are rightly treated as incompetent if they are unable to distinguish their religious belief from scientific hypothesis: if you fraudulently try to pass off religious belief as a rational hypothesis I should hope academia treats you as a fraud, anything else would mean academia has broken down. dab (&#55304;&#56435;) 21:03, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

Please, dab, refrain from disparaging other people's Faith. When you say that, "if you fraudulently try to pass off religious belief as a rational hypothesis I should hope academia treats you as a fraud," you are calling non-atheists irrational, and those non-atheists who are scientists you are calling frauds. Neither accusation is accurate, and making such accusations or disparaging other people's faith is never acceptable on Wikipedia. NCdave (talk) 00:55, 9 April 2008 (UTC)

What Wikipedia is interested in is academic mainstream... Therein lies the problem. This means, any article about a movie, book, or position that challenges the academic mainstream as being dogmatic doesn't stand a chance of a fair shake on Wikipedia when measured against the onslaught of those who wish to defend the dogma.Madjack59 (talk) 19:49, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

Woof! .. dave souza, talk 07:03, 8 April 2008 (UTC)

Whether you like it or not, that is reality. This Wiki is aimed towards academic standard and has the goal of building an encyclopedia. There are many other wikis which have different goals. I would be pleased to direct you to another one which might suit your tastes better.--Filll (talk) 20:09, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

And of course the irony of this reply in light of this particular section is that you're essentially proving the whole point here. The point of the movie is that the academic community suppresses opinions that are contrary to the mainstream academic community - to the point of persecution. You are arguing that Wikipedia isn't the place for anything contrary to the academic community, and those that are trying to say others are essentially disruptive editors. This of course makes them open to the various forms of Wikipedia moderation, which is essentially a form of censorship (perhaps appropriate in some cases). However, regardless of whether the censorship is appropriate or not, it does uphold the point that those who advocate for ID are essentially censored, to the point where some have posted block warnings on user pages...Rich0 (talk) 21:40, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

Yes, the Academic community, and wikipedia too, has a dreadful bias against unsubstantiated, illogical hyperbole, and "suppresses", suppresses I tell you, claims for no other reason than that they have no factual basis. Do you know how difficult it is to get the WP:TRUTH that the moon is made of green cheese into either a scientific journal or wikipedia? Hrafn^Talk_Stalk 05:16, 8 April 2008 (UTC)

Hrafn is of course right, and WP:V trumps "Truth". As a parallel to this film, the cheese theory[5] is given full backing in the movie A Grand Day Out. .. dave souza, talk 07:03, 8 April 2008 (UTC)

A couple of key reminders

According to the splash page of the Crossroads Expelled website:

Big science has expelled smart new ideas from the classroom. What they forgot is every generation has its Rebel...

So I want to point out the producers are framing this as an idea being expelled from the classroom and not people. This article by "the producers" from the same web site sheds some light on what idea they're talking about http://www.expelledthemovie.com/chronicle.php?article=1

:

Are Atheists Hijacking Academic Freedom? Why some might consider Ben Stein’s new movie to be political dynamite. The theory of intelligent design (ID), holds that certain features of the universe and of living things are best explained by an intelligent cause rather than an undirected process such as natural selection. ID is thus a scientific disagreement with the core claim of evolutionary theory that the apparent design of living systems is an illusion.

Political dynamite.

There are folks working overtime to deny scientists who disagree with the core claim of evolutionary theory the right to pursue the scientific evidence for intelligent design theory. But there is more to this than meets the eye.

They don’t like the very idea of an intelligent cause because they don’t like the idea of allowing even the possibility of the existence of an intelligent “designer.” That might lead to scientific evidence in support of the unthinkable, i.e. G-O-D. But they simultaneously want you to believe that their belief in atheism has nothing to do with their persecution of scientists and educators, many of whom see scientific evidence for design or a designer. Merely coincidence. That is because they have “defined” science in such a way as to prevent the scientific exploration of intelligent design theory. They say that any evidence that suggests intelligent design in nature isn’t really science. In this manner they are able to “logically” assert that only their theories of life (which just happen to be exclusively atheistic theories) are “real” science, while intelligent design theory is conveniently dismissed as religious “creationism.”

All of this translates into a very nasty piece of business as far as academic freedom goes.

The upcoming film EXPELLED: No Intelligence Allowed starring Ben Stein articulates why the argument made in the film is irrefutable – meaning that those who oppose “Intelligent Design” theory as a valid topic in the science classroom are simply wrong to oppose it.

But are they also intellectually disingenuous, opponents of academic freedom and proponents of atheism, hijacking “science?” After seeing the film “EXPELLED: No Intelligence Allowed,” we’d appreciate your telling us the answer to that question.

The whole point of man’s thirst for knowledge, scientific and otherwise, is to answer the question “Who are we?” “Where did we come from?” “Why are we here?” and “Where are we headed?” To deny this is to deny the reality of human existence since the beginning. And to simply “declare” that the subject of “science” can somehow side step these questions is either wrong or intellectually disingenuous.

The official definition of science currently holds that it is “the study of observable natural phenomenon that excludes those explanations citing the “supernatural.” This definition is disingenuous – it all but “defines” science as the search for “proof” of …exclusively atheistic theories.

It is the position of the producers of EXPELLED that no government institution or public employee should promote either belief in atheism OR belief in an intelligent designer – one to the exclusion of the other – as official, government policy. Both are presuppositions, both are beliefs and both are valid as scientific bases for scientific exploration. And this is particularly true with respect to the way “science” is officially defined, and especially with respect to our public schools and government institutions. It is simply a tautology to “declare” that science is strictly the study of the natural, and to then simultaneously decree that attempts to explore the universe in terms of the presupposition of intelligent design are “off the table,” and “not science.” To do so is to define “science” in such a way as to officially “favor” explanations that place atheistic presuppositions above those with the presupposition of design at their root. This is not the proper role of the government. Not in America.

Highly credentialed “dissenters” from today’s prevailing “materialist” theories of life’s progression who wish to pursue science on the basis of a presupposition of intelligent design are being persecuted, vilified, denied tenure and even fired from their jobs for their beliefs today. To even question aspects of Darwin’s theory of evolution is being used as prima facie evidence that one is “unintelligent,” and/or unqualified.

To deny this is disingenuous.

Belief in atheism, agnosticism and belief in a designer are real beliefs – let’s not pretend that they don’t exist, can be side stepped or pretend that it is fair, constitutional or intellectually rigorous to favor one such worldview over another... especially in the realm of science. To oppose such academic freedom – especially at the taxpayer’s expense - is simply wrong. If you agree, look here.

~The Producers of “EXPELLED: No Intelligence Allowed”

Clearly this movie is very much about promoting intelligent design in the classroom and in science. Angry Christian (talk) 15:24, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

Very good point. The message that "Big science has expelled smart new ideas from the classroom." and argument that "the possibility of the existence of an intelligent “designer.” ... might lead to scientific evidence in support of the unthinkable, i.e. G-O-D." , together with the claim that people are wrong to "oppose “Intelligent Design” theory as a valid topic in the science classroom", assertion that the official definition of science currently holds that it is “the study of observable natural phenomenon that excludes those explanations citing the “supernatural.” and the reference to the way “science” is officially defined "especially with respect to our public schools and government institutions." all run right up against the "Establishment Clause" and Kitzmiller. My feeling is that a brief statement about the implications of this reference could be added to the Claims presented in the film section. It also ties in with the very brief statement in the AP news story[6][7] that "The movie argues that schools should teach creationism as an alternative to evolution". ... dave souza, talk 17:20, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

That excerpt indicates that the topic of the film is academic freedom:

"There are folks working overtime to deny scientists who disagree with the core claim of evolutionary theory the right to pursue the scientific evidence for intelligent design theory."

"...persecution of scientists and educators, many of whom see scientific evidence for design or a designer."

"Highly credentialed “dissenters” from today’s prevailing “materialist” theories of life’s progression who wish to pursue science on the basis of a presupposition of intelligent design are being persecuted, vilified, denied tenure and even fired from their jobs for their beliefs today."

The film's complaint isn't that those who disagree with ID are wrong, it is that they are persecuting the scientists who disagree with them. NCdave (talk) 06:06, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

The film's website quite clearly makes the complaint that ID is excluded from science classrooms (making evaluation of the legitimacy, on scientific and constitutional grounds, of that exclusion a legitimate topic for this article). As to the accusations of "persecution", they are unsubstantiated, and so I refer you to the adjective I employed above to characterise unsubstantiated accusations of persecution. Hrafn^Talk_Stalk 08:35, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

The main point of the film is the persecution of scientists and educators who think there is evidence of a designer's workmanship in the universe. You say that the complaint of persecution is "unsubstantiated," but since the thrust of the film is substantiating that complaint, what you are really saying is simply, "the film is all wrong."

That is essentially what the article currently says. It is a perfect reflection of your POV. However, it is supposed to be balanced. NCdave (talk) 19:57, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

NCdave, you had better settle down a bit. When I last checked on the "balance" in the article a few weeks ago (before I had added several more paragraphs of material from interviews with producers etc discussing the film's POV), the article was 88% pro-film and about 12% rebuttal (not counting footnotes). Now, given the rules of WP:NPOV, it could easily be balanced at 95% anti-film, however, we are more generous than that. I have no reason to believe that the article does not still include mainly material discussing the film's agenda and POV, with a small amount of material rebutting it. Some of it discusses controversy about the film, much of which was created by the filmmakers themselves, by their cackhanded handling of the creation and promotion of this film. Now if you want some promotional puff piece, you should look to Conservapedia. We do not do that kind of article here, nor are we allowed to, by our rules. Do you understand?--Filll (talk) 20:24, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

Who said Conservapedia? Their article about Expelled is a fascinating read. The notes and talk page as well. Every editor here would do well to read it. Angry Christian (talk) 20:28, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

um, why? It's Conservapedia. I could tell they like it without looking. And come on, "persecution" is simply ridiculous. "Not given fair hearing" would sound more reasonable, although it is difficult to imagine what a "fair hearing" would be in this case. dab (𒁳) 20:50, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

The Conservapedia article is interesting, but it is still lousy. They decided against discussing any controversy or critical reviews. It is very short and has no content. I think for an encyclopedia article, it should have substantial content, on all sides. It should be valuable for someone 10 or 50 years from now who wants to do research on this event and this movement and this period. The Conservapedia article serves none of those purposes. It is a one-sided embarassment.--Filll (talk) 21:06, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

The Conservapedia article is wholesale trash. I linked to it to illustrate what a POV pushing article looks like. Well and for humor reasons, nothing wrong with a little brevity here from time to time :-) Angry Christian (talk) 22:22, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

That "wholesale trash" is at least more informative and less biased than this Wikipedia article. NCdave (talk) 23:25, 8 April 2008 (UTC)

New review

Lying for Jesus? - Richard Dawkins Guettarda (talk) 01:36, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

I think we should add the Dawkins review and Myer's daughter's review, even though they are WP:SPS since they are notable figures and therefore these are WP:RS for their views which should be included.--Filll (talk) 02:16, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

Dawkin's comments seem relevant. It isn't completely obvious to me why PZ's daughter's review should matter much. JoshuaZ (talk) 02:28, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

if you do, please include Dawkin's remarks about an 'uniformed goon', a 'gauleiter', and his remarks about Stein's 'rotten acting' in Dachau. Stein is Jewish and maybe had a relative murdered by Nazis. Northfox (talk) 12:36, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

Did you read them?--Filll (talk) 02:29, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

Not when I wrote that comment. I'm reading them now. JoshuaZ (talk) 02:34, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

Or trying to, link doesn't seem to be working. Whats the correct link? JoshuaZ (talk) 02:35, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

It took me quite a few tries before I read Dawkin's review, which is pretty good. I had no trouble with Myer's daughter's review.--Filll (talk) 02:45, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

Uh, what are the links you are using? The one Guettarda gave above doesnt seem to work. JoshuaZ (talk) 02:49, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

The daughter is named Skatje Myers I gather: [8]--Filll (talk) 02:46, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

I had already read PZ's daughter's blog and I'm inclined to agree that I don't see any obvious reason to include her commentary. She is not notable in her own right and her only claim would seem to be her relation to PZ and she attended the screening. Would we add the blog comments from one of the Crossroads Expelled producer's kids? I would hope not. I did find her comments well worth reading but I don't think her thoughts belong in the article. We'd open a very ugly can of worms if we did. Angry Christian (talk) 02:47, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

Here is the Dawkins link I used. It was very hard to get it to work. I had to try over and over: [9]--Filll (talk) 03:02, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

Front page of digg. Like so many other things that receive that distinction, the website collapsed under the strain. Relata refero (talk) 13:51, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

Here you go. Relata refero (talk) 14:04, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

Inside Higher Ed has an article on the event, and has a couple more quotes from Mathis. Guettarda (talk) 15:38, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

John Lynch notes that all future showing appear to have been pulled. Guettarda (talk) 15:40, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

My reading of that is that all future free private showings have been hidden, and invitations will now go out by a secure method. Tied to pigeons or something. Of course since they're showing an extremely rough bodged version without its proper soundtrack only a few weeks from release, expect them to cancel release with the complaint that "Big Science ate my homework". ...... dave souza, talk 22:21, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

Yet another new review, this one is from New Scientist Are ID Proponents Being Silenced This one includes audience members telling people questioning things in the movie to "shut up" and a claim that many of the people posing "friendlier" questions to the producers were working the movie registration tables prior to the screening. Fascinating Angry Christian (talk) 18:22, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

Rush Limbaugh, on the other hand, is impressed and is "literally shocked" by the "condescension and the arrogance" of the professors interviewed. Literally, huh? :) Guettarda (talk) 19:08, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

My favorite quote "they will readily admit that Darwinism and evolution do not explain how life began." Well of course they will readily admit it, that is a fact. Evolution doesn't have anything to do with life's origins. Note that evolution does not even attempt to explain the universe either. Yet another literal shocker! What amazes me is how ignorant of evolution (and science in general) most evolution critics are. Ben Stein is a perfect example. He's pissed because evolution doesn't explain the universe or how life started. Well duh. Angry Christian (talk) 19:19, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

{{hat|reason=[[WP:FORUM]]}}
If evolution does not explain the origin of life, then what does it explain? Kookywolf (talk) 22:05, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

See biology....... dave souza, talk 22:16, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

Hopefully, a side benefit for people who are not well versed in this material who are visiting this page, is that they will actually learn a bit about what evolution is. Kookywolf, remember a book called "On the Origin of Species It was Darwin's book that described evolution. And guess what evolution describes? How we get different species! Amazing, isnt it?--Filll (talk) 22:40, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

If evolution is how we get different species, then obviously evolution must be how we got the first living creature on earth, which would then produce varieties of more complex creatures. So my rational conclusion is that evolution must be how life originated. If it is not, please educate me - how did life originate? Kookywolf (talk) 23:28, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

Um there is some confusion here. No it is not "obvious" that evolution is how we got the first living creature on earth. And evolution has no internal mechanism that leads to necessarily more complicated organisms (another common fallacy). No one knows how life originated, although there are dozens of theories. But the origin of life (or abiogenesis) is not part of evolution. Discussing it at length is outside the purview of this page, however.--Filll (talk) 23:36, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

please educate me - no, please don't. This isn't the place to correct an editor's general misconceptions. Guettarda (talk) 02:59, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

Basic, Darwinistic, Natural Selection evolution does not describe how life began, it just attempts to explain a way that species change. Modern evolutionists on the other hand, have used explanations like Primordial Soup to describe how life began. So really, you're both right, and you're both wrong. Whether or not evolution tries to explain the origins of life depends on whether you're talking about basic darwinistic evolution, or talking about modern attempts to explain the origin as well as diversification of life. Saksjn (talk) 12:59, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

My problem with abiogenesis is this, long ago the scientific community said that all life must come from life. Theories like primordial soup go against that. A reverse in theory has taken place, and a long time accepted theory has been discarded. Saksjn (talk) 13:04, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

{{hab}}

A second problem is lack of falsifiability. No one has managed to make predictions or propose experiments which would support or falsify the hypothesized abiotic origin of life. In other words, the scientific method apparently cannot be applied, because the hypothesis is untestable. Acceptance of the abiotic origin of life is, thus, for all intents and purposes, simply a matter of Faith. NCdave (talk) 23:44, 8 April 2008 (UTC)

That is patently false NCdave, but that is not the point of this talk page, and further rants in this direction should be summarily userfied or archived. Thanks.--Filll (talk) 23:49, 8 April 2008 (UTC)

Filll, my statement is falsifiable by counterexample. So if you think my statement is in error, please prove your point by identifying a falsifiable prediction arising from the hypothesized abiotic origin of life, or a proposed or actual experiment to test such a prediction. Please don't just deny it without evidence, and insult me by calling what I wrote a "rant." NCdave (talk) 01:33, 9 April 2008 (UTC)

Withdrawal of movie

Dawkins and several others have speculated that maybe the movie would be withdrawn, given its current rough state and the recent embarassment of expelling Myers. I think this is just wishful thinking. Pondering the situation, I have to say I disagree, for the following reasons:

• Dawkins, Skatje Myers, Moore and all those on the right that have viewed the movie report that the audience is tickled pink and guffaws and snickers throughout the movie. Dawkins did not like it, but that is what he reported.
• Dawkins gave up asking questions at the end of the movie because the audience response was so hostile.
• Many times, different cuts of the movie are shown to see what audience response is, and final decisions are made on this basis
• The Myers affair has boosted the visibility of the movie incredibly. Now even many "evolutionists" and atheists etc will want to see the movie to see what the fuss is about
• Even if the movie release is delayed again, this is quite common in the movie business
• Most of the target audience is going to buy Mathis' explanation, frankly. Look what else they have already bought. --Filll (talk) 14:17, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

I'm with you, Filll. Furthermore I think this is a purely preaching to the choir film so there's no doubt in my mind it will be released and with great fanfare. Angry Christian (talk) 14:37, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

It rather depends on what you expect from the movie:

• Will it energise 'the base' of conservative evangelicals and get them out to vote in school board elections to support "poor persecuted Christians"? Most probably. But then, they would have needed very little convincing anyway. Spending the $3.5m budget on Icons of Evolution DVDs would probably have been a more effective way of achieving this. But I see little point in them withdrawing it, having already spent the money.
• Will it convince many moderate Christians? Most probably not, if the reported heavy-handedness of the propaganda tactics are in the least bit accurate, and particularly if the negative buzz it is generating with the mainstream media continues to increase.

I don't think this movie will change many people's positions, merely harden them. Hrafn^Talk_Stalk 14:42, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

The big question for the filmmakers is, will they make their money back and make a profit? And I think that the signs are that they will. And the Myers event makes it more likely I suspect, not less likely (particularly as I monitor the traffic to this article page on the internet).--Filll (talk) 14:48, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

Does it matter? The film was almost-certainly underwritten by big-pocketed ID supporters, and the pay-schools-to-make-their-pupils-go scheme indicates that they have little interest in turning a profit. Hrafn^Talk_Stalk 15:08, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

It depends on how widespread this speculation is. I think it is something we should watch and maybe see if eventually we cover it in the article.--Filll (talk) 15:12, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

The film makers wanted the film to become controversial. If it did, people would see it just to see what the whole big deal was. The more people that see it... the more money the film makes and the more people are exposed to it's opinions. Am I correct in saying that we are all probably going to see it the first day it comes out? Saksjn (talk) 19:15, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

To be honest, I probably won't. I appreciate good films, and I am not particularly convinced this would be classified as a "good film". But I have been pretty bored with most films like this, including Michael Moore's. They alternately bore me and anger me with their POV pushing and agendas.--Filll (talk) 19:26, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

Without question I will not see it in a theatre and instead will wait and borrow a DVD or get one from a library. I do not financially reward one sided propaganda movies like this or others in a similar vein. Loan me your copy of a Michael Moore or Ben Stein movie and I'll watch it but I'm not going to financially reward propaganda. Opening weekend is a good prediction of how well a movie will do so the producers are putting alot of emphasis on the opening. I suspect this movie will go to DVD very quickly. Angry Christian (talk) 19:42, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

We can hope.--Filll (talk) 19:48, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

Yeah, hello y'all, it's STILL not a general discussion forum for the subject of the article, m'kay? Anyone remember the basic guiding rules of Wikipedia? Anyone? Anyone? Bueler? Dolewhite (talk) 19:59, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

Please read about its potential relevance above. And people are allowed to have a couple of offtopic asides, are they not?--Filll (talk) 20:05, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

I think that in order to effectively discuss the article we all should see the movie when it comes out. If only a few of us see it, we have an "advantage" in discussion over those that haven't. (the term advantage is used sarcastically) Saksjn (talk) 13:00, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

What? You radical, you! It is the most sacred principle of Wikipedia that whether of not you know something about a topic has nothing to do with your qualifications to write an encyclopedia article about it!  ;-) NCdave (talk) 23:49, 8 April 2008 (UTC)

what the producers left out

Interesting perspective at PT Allen MacNeill: Expelled from Expelled Seems Cornell routinely invites ID proponents to lecture there and he was interviwed for the film so they knew this yet this fact was left out. He also points out how many openly religious biologists such as Ken Miller (who is a Christian) were not included. Makes you scratch your head and wonder. In fact Cornell is doing exactly what the IDists are requesting - they give ID a platform to speak from at a major university and no one gets persectuted. Why did the producers of Crossroads Expelled keep this fact out of the movie? I think the Cornell snub is noteworthy. Angry Christian (talk) 15:54, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

Not really surprising. Staying on-message is clearly more important than accuracy for them -- and such examples work against the message of Science-Departments-as-Orwellian-Atheist-indoctrination-camps. Hrafn^Talk_Stalk 16:20, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

I notice the Inside Higher Education article mentions a professor at a Christian college who published a book stating that you could reconcile evolution and a belief in God. After that, he was forbidden from teaching biology classes.--Filll (talk) 16:23, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

for the record, in Richard_G._Colling's wikiarticle it is reported that he does not teach the general biology classes anymore. Seems he still teaches biology.Northfox (talk) 02:23, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

This also dovetails nicely with my favorite example, Christine Comer.--Filll (talk) 16:24, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

Hmm - the Richard Colling case had a lot of coverage - I'm surprised that we don't have an article on him. Guettarda (talk) 16:33, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

Grasshopper, try Richard G. Colling Correct? Angry Christian (talk) 16:41, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

Thanks. Guettarda (talk) 19:02, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

Ok, given that we have a couple of articles that discuss cases which are the "opposite" of those presented in the movie, maybe we could have a section on them without being accused of engaging in WP:OR? The Cornell situation, Colling, and possibly Comer (I don't know of a source for that one yet that links in this movie, or maybe I do, I just have to dig it back up). Are there others? Since we are a major stop on the internet (3rd after the official film websites), and obviously visited now by thousands per day, if we highlighted this, it might result in some more balanced journalism, for example. Nothing like cataloguing this information and making it easily available to the great unwashed.--Filll (talk) 19:52, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

The situation where a scientist was forbiden from teaching biology shouldn't have happened. My physics/earth-space teacher openly professes to be a theistic evolutionist... at a Christian school... and he still teaches. Although I don't agree with the decision of the college, I can see why they might do something like that. The school has a Christian base and wants to keep everything in the college inside the "Christian" box. What that box is depends on who you ask. This is the same as a Muslim school condeming a teacher for saying Christianity and Islam can co-exist. Saksjn (talk) 13:06, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

But the fact that such cases exist, show that the situation is far more complicated and not as one-sided as those who produced this movie would have you believe.--Filll (talk) 13:09, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

A commenter on The Panda's Thumb (blog) compiled a useful list:

I thought I’d post all the firings of professors and state officials for teaching or accepting evolution.

2 professors fired, Bitterman (SW CC Iowa) and Bolyanatz (Wheaton)
1 persecuted unmercifully Richard Colling (Olivet)
1 attempted firing Murphy (Fuller Theological by Phillip Johnson IDist)
1 successful death threats, assaults harrasment Gwen Pearson (UT Permian)
1 state official fired Chris Comer (Texas)
1 assault, fired from dept. Chair Paul Mirecki (U. of Kansas)
Death Threats Eric Pianka UT Austin and the Texas Academy of Science engineered by a hostile, bizarre IDist named Bill Dembski
Death Threats Michael Korn, fugitive from justice, towards the UC Boulder biology department and miscellaneous evolutionary biologists.

Up to 9 with little effort. Probably there are more. I turned up a new one with a simple internet search. Haven’t even gotten to the secondary science school teachers.[10]

Hrafn^Talk_Stalk 03:46, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

what does 'successful death treat' mean? Was Gwen Pearson murdered? A quick google did not give any hit. Or was he successfully fired? Northfox (talk) 07:16, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

More candidates: More irony from the ID creationist crowd details Terry M. Gray & Howard Van Till's heresy trials and Van Till's ongoing inquisition and harassment thereafter. Hrafn^Talk_Stalk 05:25, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

Should we put a sentence in this article, with a link to a list article, listing some of these cases? What should we do?--Filll (talk) 10:41, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

To get them into this article, we'd need WP:RSs linking them to Expelled, which we don't seem to have to date. Assuming that even some of these examples have WP:RSs simply on the persecution angle (which is almost certainly true), we should be able to find enough to meet WP:NOTE on a 'Creationist persecution of theistic evolutionists' article, which could legitimately be see-also-ed from this one. Hrafn^Talk_Stalk 11:04, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

seen this on the expelled website?

I read this quote on a blog that said they got it from the expelled website. Anyone else seen this:

"In fact, Nazi Germany is the thread that ties everything in the movie together. Evolution leads to atheism leads to eugenics leads to Holocaust and Nazi Germany"

Angry Christian (talk) 21:08, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

It's here, in hidden text at the bottom. Use your mouse to sweep out the area below SPOILER!! and it should show up as reverse video. Raymond Arritt (talk) 21:14, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

Thanks! Angry Christian (talk) 21:19, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

Ah good. That is probably a better source than some of what we have been using (which start to make us look sort of ridiculous). We really need to have a careful exposition of this entire episode, with good sources, not blog entries talking about who might have emailed a blogger and what they might have claimed in a personal email to this blogger etc.--Filll (talk) 21:17, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

Oh dear. Even more ham-fisted sophomoric theatrics. I start to see now what Dawkins was talking about with 'Lord Privy Seals'. It'll be interesting to see what a high-brow film critic from a major paper makes of such tactics. Hrafn^Talk_Stalk 04:27, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

I notice that Dawkins pointed out that Hitler drew more inspiration from Martin Luther's On Jews and their Lies than from Charles Darwin's On the Origin of Species. I hope some journalists make that point as well.--Filll (talk) 05:01, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

They will if they go to Wikipedia, where the article on Luther tends to make one think he was an antisemite first and just happened to split the Catholic church in his spare time. Relata refero (talk) 10:25, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

A gross exaggeration. Discussion of Luther's anti-Semitism is only a small fraction of the article, without any undue prominence of positioning. Hrafn^Talk_Stalk 11:16, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

Really? The Lutherans must be editing tendentiously again.....

I do notice that "small fraction" of the article means the second largest section, a majority of the bibliography, and an entire section of the intro.... Relata refero (talk) 11:23, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

Yet you somehow failed to "notice" that it was only one (and the second-last) of 16 sections and that its "entire" paragraph in the lead is only two sentences long, and is the last paragraph. And there is no "bibliography". Do you mean the 'Notes' section? If so, all that you can claim is that its the best-documented section. You poor FAUX-persecuted Christian you. Hrafn^Talk_Stalk 15:56, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

Well considering that Luther's work was a major motivation for Mein Kampf, maybe this is not completely out of line. And Luther was four square behind the Inquisition and wanted to see much harsher treatments, if I remember correctly. He was kind of a brutal sort.--Filll (talk) 13:08, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

Luther's anti-semitism was wrong, but it wasn't the major work of his life. The major work of his life was the founding of Protenstanism and the translation of the Bible into German. But all this has nothing to do with expelled. Saksjn (talk) 13:25, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

Expelled from Expelled: Youtube on Dawkins interviewing Myers

Here. Seems to be an 'interview' in a hotel room after Myers was expelled and looks like a planned event; was shot from 2-3 different angles simultaneously. Dawkins fed some questions and Myers answered. One reason why future viewings of Expelled have been cancelled may be that Myers said in this Youtube video that he 'instructed' (his own words) people to sign up for future public viewings by the name PZ Myers. Organizers then might have pulled future film showing out of security reasons. Northfox (talk) 01:51, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

This is an absurd piece of baseless speculation. Following this line of thinking, all the Evil Atheist Conspiracy needs to do is to issue PZ Myers masks and conservative Evangelicals will abandon their homes and flee to the Bible-belt. Hrafn^Talk_Stalk 02:29, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

Hmmm planned event? As in non-spontanious? Sounds sinister. And your conjecture could be true Northfox, but I'm inclined to wonder if they pulled the plug on the private showings because they fear an impending attack by Nazi remnants who are pissed because Crossroads Expelled lables them as "Darwinists". The Nazis hated Darwin, burned and banned his books right along side the bible even (they were a grumpy bunch to be sure). They are very testy about being called "Darwinists". Anyhow thanks for the link. Angry Christian (talk) 02:49, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

AFAIK, there is no evidence of planned action from far-right extremist groups. But we have a very prominent anti-IDer who instructs people to sign up under false names to attend (and maybe use the ensuing confusion to disturb) future showings. Reason enough for an organizer to take appropriate steps. Northfox (talk) 04:19, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

That doesn't make much sense; all they'd need to do is to not let in any of the fake PZs, and they'd have a good reason to given that the people had signed up under false names (unlike with the real PZ). Alternatively, the could let them all in. Then what disruption could occur? As explanations go this is less than compelling. JoshuaZ (talk) 05:00, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

I will admit that the Myers and Dawkins clip looks fairly professional, particularly with the camera angles. It does make me wonder why it looks so good. And it looks like it was shot within a day of the actual expulsion. What gives?--Filll (talk) 03:13, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

Myers and Dawkins didn't just fall off the turnip truck. They've both been in the public eye, and it wouldn't be surprising that they knew how to find a camera crew at short notice (whether for hire or through media connections). So it wasn't necessarily planned in advance although it could have been. Raymond Arritt (talk) 03:18, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

Alternately, as they were both attending a major atheists convention, it is possible that they'd pre-planned an interview unrelated to the expulsion, and opportunistically made use of the crew to film a piece on it. Or the crew might have been at the convention for some other reason and just got roped in. Or ... There are numerous non-sinister scenarios. Or alternately the Evil Atheist Conspiracy turned their Orbital Mind-control Lasers on Mathis forcing him to expel Myers so that they could hold an interview that they pre-planned on that exact subject. Hrafn^Talk_Stalk 03:48, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

I never said that Dawkins and Myers had sinister motives. Interesting interpretation by Angry Christian and Hrafn. Just that it looked planned. Maybe there were planning to give their comments on Expelled after seeing it before running cameras anyway, and the expulsion came as a windfall. But the 'instructed' comment is quite revealing. Northfox (talk) 04:10, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

And I never said that you said they did -- my "sinister" comment was in response to Filll's "make me wonder". What I in fact said that you did was make absurd speculations about the relationship between Myers' clearly tongue-in-cheek 'instruction' & the cancellation of previously planned previews. Hrafn^Talk_Stalk

Hrafn, to quote you from above: Hmmm planned event? As in non-spontanious? Sounds sinister. that was not abut my comment? Anyway, I leave it at that. Northfox (talk) 05:12, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

Northfox: learn to read! It was Angry Christian who said that, not me -- and even that did not accuse you of saying "that Dawkins and Myers had sinister motives", merely that it gave a sinister impression ("sounds sinister"). You are again exaggerating in an apparent attempt to make a martyr of yourself. Please leave your cross and your nails outside. Hrafn^Talk_Stalk 06:10, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

Hrafn, Angry Christian, sorry to have made a mistake here and mixed up the authorship of your two posts. Northfox (talk) 11:23, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

From what PZ said on his blog a couple days ago, I think they planned to do an interview/conversation well in advance, as part of Dawkins' visit to Minnesota. Guettarda (talk) 04:43, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

I would have done that "instruction" bit myself. Sounds like a good way to sort of get even. I would have been fairly annoyed if I had gone out of my way to get to the mall and bring my friends and family and waited in line and then been threatened with an arrest. So I don't blame him at all for giving that "instruction", if it originated with him, or he was just passing on someone else's idea. Serves them right.--Filll (talk) 04:58, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

Most interviews are planned, other than someone assaulting you with a microphone when you walk out your door. This is such a non-issue I can't believe we're discussing it. All the interviews in Crossroads Expelled were planned, they even claim the questions were submitted in advance. And get this not only did the producers plan the interviews, they used cameras and microphones to accomplish their task! Planning an interview is not news. And my "sounds sinister" comment was comedy. Sheesh. Angry Christian (talk) 14:05, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

Hi, Northox, you opened this by saying "Seems to be an 'interview' in a hotel room after Myers was expelled and looks like a planned event; was shot from 2-3 different angles simultaneously." Yes, as has been said they no doubt planned an interview as part of the atheist conference, or were able to plan it quickly and engage a competent camera crew. Dawkins comments that Expelled is a "very, very, shoddy poor inartistic piece of work", and from the extract from the DVD the promoters have been handing out that's been available on the web, I have to agree. The cameraman keeps zooming in on Dawkins's nose, maybe trying to imply something but it just looks incompetent.

You then speculated that "One reason why future viewings of Expelled have been cancelled may be that Myers said in this Youtube video that he 'instructed' (his own words) people to sign up for future public viewings by the name PZ Myers. Organizers then might have pulled future film showing out of security reasons." Eh, not exactly. That's how rumours get started, and I'm sure quote mining wasn't intended. From watching the interview on YouTube (it's been posted on Dawkins's site and is available as a download) here's my transcript –

Richard Dawkins "Nobody had a ticket, it's not a ticketed affair. Anybody could go on the web and reserve a place. for themselves and guests."

PZ "There was nothing secretive about it, nothing that was hidden away. you didn't need a password, anybody could have done this. And apparently there are shows going on around the country where you can still do this, you can still reserve seats. And I've sort of instructed lots of people, go sign up for them. And actually on my blog there's several commentators, in which the kind of little movement going on, they're going to sign up PZ Myers for every single [show? obscured by laughter]"

That ties in with my recollection of reading others proposing the "Spartacus" style signing on as PZ Myers as a joke. The "sort of instructed" would probably have been better and more accurately phrased as "suggested", since it's doubtful if anyone's going to take "instructions" from PZ. However amidst the amusement many were taking the hint to try to go to a free viewing, and were discussing it well before this showing as I recall. As a source in the article shows, at least one Christian website was openly suggesting that people go, and giving the link to the booking page. That page offers free private movie screenings, but what "private" means is left vague. If the organizers were competent, they had names of those booking the ticket, and people were going to have to show their ID, so they could have emailed back questions rather than waiting until PZ turned up. At least one atheist has blogged about getting a booking confirmed, but then being disappointed to receive email notice that the showing had been cancelled. No doubt they've either given up on these showings of a half-finished piece of work, or have introduced the sort of private and secure procedure they sort of intended in the first place, but didn't set up in a competent way. Web pages on the internet without a sign in procedure are not private. .. dave souza, talk 19:40, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

Dave, thanks for the transcript. Okay, someone on his blog mentioned that they should all sign up as PZ Myers, it wasn't PZ himself. I am corrected, which is a good thing. Good too, that I only mentioned this here on the talk and not in the main article. But that's what talk pages are for (among other things). But it seems to me that Myers liked (and endorsed?) that idea. Anyway, I was wrong on that part, and your time-consuming transcript showed that. Thanks also for assuming good faith, and that I wasn't quotemining. Northfox (talk) 02:53, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

No problem, it's easy to remember something inaccurately, I find it best to try to transcribe the words, then listen again and make corrections, then check again. For example, I typed "kind of" then had to correct it to "sort of". Myers and Dawkins obviously enjoyed the joke immensely, but the idea of multiple registrations as "PZ Myers" was never really a serious way of trying to see the film, a protest gesture at most. . . dave souza, talk 13:26, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

If this isn't a near-finished version, given it was originally to release in February, one has to ask what's going on. One would think it'd take at least some time to get the distribution sorted if they want to open on the proposed date.

Not that it's likely to matter - any film that's offering schools money above the cost of a ticket to go and see it probably isn't intended to make a huge profit. Anyone know who's bankrolling this? Shoemaker's Holiday (talk) 19:58, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

Well, we have the famous student's statement that Mathis said that the music might be changed when they've sorted out permissions and that it was a rough cut, explaining awkward jumps and shaky bits. One blog suggested it was shown from a computer rather than a film projector. However some early viewers thought it was wonderful, but then they were pastors rather than film critics. .. dave souza, talk 20:12, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

One reason for the delay might have been the need to make their own version of the Harvard/XVIVO film[11] Guettarda (talk) 21:03, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

Which looks like plagiarizm, and it's touch and go whether or not it's a copyright violation. IIRC Mathis or another spokesman claimed you can't copyright cell structures, but Olorin in the comments on that article makes the point "Whether or not a purported copy infringes the copyright on the original work depends upon whether the copy uses the same “expression” as the original.... . If the “overall impression” of the viewer is the same, there is at least a chance that the copy infringes. The error that an irregular motion is presented as smooth in both the original and the copy is, I think, significant as to whether the expression is the same. A legal opinion would of course require a detailed review of the entire work." .. dave souza, talk 23:52, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

ID, Kitzmiller part II

The only other documentary about ID that I've seen is the Nova special Judgement Day:Intelligent Design On Trial You can watch the entire episode online and also read all sorts of interviews including one by the grandfather of ID and also from the producer. Should a link to the actual documentary be included in the links in this article? Both documentaries cover similar territory. Angry Christian (talk) 15:06, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

Also, we should provide a link to Flock of Dodos, yes? Angry Christian (talk) 15:09, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

Those sound like reasonable "see alsos" to me. Guettarda (talk) 15:44, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

Or should we have some sort of category to link all these and other movies and videos together?--Filll (talk) 15:56, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

I think see alsos is a good idea. Angry Christian (talk) 15:59, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

No harm in providing sub-sections (e.g. one for related movies & videos) to the see-also section. Hrafn^Talk_Stalk 16:05, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

I have no problem with augmenting the "see also" section, but I propose we create a category for "Films about intelligent design".--Filll (talk) 16:19, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

Done and I think we should limit the links there to films that are neutral in that they do not have a dog in the fight and/or are not promoting one side or the other (even though Crossroads Expelled is clearly not neutral). Angry Christian (talk) 16:38, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

What would that mean in practice, though? Shoemaker's Holiday (talk) 18:50, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

My intent was that we avoid making it a link farm to any video and instead limit it to the most relevant ones. Does that seem like a reasonable objective or am I dreaming? Angry Christian (talk) 18:57, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

And by most relevant ones (and neutral) I meant to not list every creationist or evolution related video our there. Angry Christian (talk) 18:58, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

Well, it's a "see also", so it's a judgment call as to what are the most relevant links. A Flock of Dodos and Judgment Day are different perspectives on a similar matter. Pro-ID films that are widely distributed and deal with similar content should also be considered, but I can't think of any that have this sort of societal focus. Guettarda (talk) 21:01, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

Speaking of video can anyone hear what Logan Craft is saying in this "Cooporation of Chruch and State" lecture? I can't hear a dang thing. Is the audio missing or? Angry Christian (talk) 21:28, 25 March 2008 (UTC) I suppose a link would help - http://video.google.ca/videoplay?docid=1651486868728911791

It is very low but I can hear fine when I turn up my speakers. talk —Preceding comment was added at 21:44, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

Maybe I need new speakers. He is some sort of ordained reverend/priest in addition to being a producer of this film it seems. He also hosts some "Church and State" cable show in New Mexico. Angry Christian (talk) 21:55, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

<undent>The sound is very low, but I listened to about half of it. It was very boring so I did not pay much attention to it.--Filll (talk) 13:34, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

alleged societal ills

It's a minor fine tuning but first of all I read the cites given and did not see any obvious link of the producers claiming "evolution = societal ills" I know the film does in fact claim this so we need a better or additional cite that clearly supports what the article is saying. Secondly, I believe they are not blaming evolution for alleged societal ills but actual societal ills. I could be mistaken. If they are legitimate societal ills then I think we should remove the "alleged". Angry Christian (talk) 19:37, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

While the NYT article touches on the point, Whipple is a better reference – "After a half hour or so, "Expelled" wanders off to blame the theory of evolution for Communism, the Berlin Wall, Fascism, the Holocaust, atheism and Planned Parenthood." It's certainly a matter of POV whether atheism and Planned Parenthood are a bad thing, and I'm sure there are many who think communism is a good thing, though obviously some of the implementations fell at least as far short of the ideals as, say, the Spanish Inquisition did of Christian ideals. So, suggestions for rephrasing would be welcome, and probably best to move references [2] and [3] a phrase earlier to cover the preceding points, then cite Whipple for that specific point. Dawkins's review could also be cited there. .. dave souza, talk 20:05, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

Ok I get it now and the "alleged" makes perfect sense. Angry Christian (talk) 20:09, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

I think it would be better to use some term other than "alleged." Alleged suggest action, issues of definite fact, and, usually, some type of wrongdoing. Example: "He is alleged to have committed murder." Can someone think of a better term or phrase? JBFrenchhorn (talk) 23:20, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

Purported? Putative?--Filll (talk) 23:49, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

Yes, maybe purported would work. Or maybe just not use any qualifier, and just list some of the (alleged) ills. "blames the theory for a range of modern phenomena from Nazism to Planned Parenthood." How does that sound? Perhaps the word phenomena shouldn't be used though. JBFrenchhorn (talk) 19:43, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

Any other thoughts? JBFrenchhorn (talk) 19:07, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

Sorry none that I can think of but I just removed the duplicate instance of this so now we only need to worry about the mention of it in the opening para Angry Christian (talk) —Preceding comment was added at 20:07, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

I made an edit to change this in the opening paragraph. JBFrenchhorn (talk) 00:54, 29 March 2008 (UTC)

Shermer

Doesnt Michael Shermer appear in the movie? Should we mention this?--Filll (talk) 20:02, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

Perhaps, if he definitely does, though how much we can say about him in it, given current sources, I dunno. Shoemaker's Holiday (talk) 20:05, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

Of course, even if they plan to put certain people in the film at the moment, it is not clear that they will appear in the final cut.--Filll (talk) 20:46, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

Read Shermer's experience and a well written review here. It appeals Shermer is not a Ben Stein fan at all. According to the review Kitzmiller is in fact mentioned in the movie. This is well worth reading and also incorporating in the article Angry Christian (talk) 14:54, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

Can we get ahold of his Scientific American review?--Filll (talk) 15:21, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

No idea. I'm pasting all of what Shermer wrote about his interview experience with Ben Stein to make it easier to discuss:

My take on Mathis is that he's an opportunist. He says and does whatever he thinks necessary to get his film made and now promoted. My guess on the latest flap about tossing PZ out of the screening but not Dawkins was PZ's original assumption that they just didn't notice Dawkins there, and only after the fact rationalizing the whole affair with plausible (and ever changing) reasons.

For my part, the moment I sat down with Stein (with Mathis there) and he asked me that question about firing people for expressing dissenting views a dozen times, I realized that I was being manipulated to give certain answers they were looking for me to give. I asked them both, several times, if they had anything else to ask me about evolutionary theory or Intelligent Design. In frustration I finally said something like "Do you have any other questions to ask me or do you keep asking me this question in hopes that I'll give a different answer?"

That's when Stein finally changed the subject and asked about social Darwinism. We got into a lengthy discussion about Adam Smith, which he seemed surprised to learn that I seemed to know more about the great economist than he did! For example, he didn't seem to even realize that Smith's first book was "The Theory of Moral Sentiments", and that Smith didn't trust businessmen any more than he trusted government bureaucrats, and that we need a mix of enlightened self-interest and strictly enforced rules of trade. But as I noted in my review of the film for Scientific American, Stein was especially displeased with my linkage of Smith and Darwin, that Darwin read Smith as an undergraduate at Edinburgh, etc. I also pointed out to him that Darwin has been used and abused by ideologues of all stripes, and that in any case that is all separate from whether the science is good or not. That seemed to tax his thinking too much, because shortly after he announced that he had to take a rest break and he just got up and went out to his car for about 20 minutes! Seriously, he just went out to the street next to our office and sat in the rent car they had! I couldn't believe it. We had only been going for about 30 minutes and he was tired? And this was in the late morning. I joked with Mathis that, this being Hollywood and all, I wondered if Stein was out doing a line of cocaine.... Mathis assured me that Stein doesn't do drugs, but I found the whole thing to be quite odd. Then Stein came back in and that's when we walked around the office with the handheld camera to get some B-Roll footage, and they showed him asking me about my books, and that's where I told him I thought ID was much closer to pseudoscience than science. Then he asked me AGAIN if I thought people should be fired....

The whole experience was a bit surreal, and I found Stein to be a somewhat disagreeable man. He tried to come off like he was a star and that I should have been star-struck, and when I wasn't that seemed to get under his skin a bit. For example, when he came back into the office from resting in his car, I said something like "gentlemen, I've got work to do so I'd like to wrap this thing up now," he looked at me like "hey, don't you realize who I am and that you should be grateful to be talking to me?" I let him off the hook a bit in my review about his questionable comment about blacks, but I suspect he has some racist tendencies.

Angry Christian (talk) 15:33, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

I dug around on the web but so far I haven't found Shermer's column on Expelled. I suspect that it has not been published yet. Perhaps Dawkins et al got ahold of a preprint of the column. We could as well I suppose, but we probably couldn't use it until that edition of Scientific American is officially published. --Filll (talk) 16:07, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

I just sent him an email asking when it's scheduled to be published. We'll see what he says. Angry Christian (talk) 16:33, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

Here is Shermer's email response to me:

That was from an email to Josh which I gave him permission to quote. You can quote it as well. But I just realized that my closing paragraph doesn't make sense without the opening paragraph of my review for Scientific American, so you may include that if you like:

“Should I be worried about the Crips and the Bloods up here?” These were the first words out of the mouth of Ben Stein as he entered my office at Skeptic magazine, located in the racially mixed neighborhood of Altadena, California. I cringed and hoped that the two black women in my employ were out of earshot of what I hoped was merely Mr. Stein’s ham-handed attempt at humor before we settled into his interview of me for what I was told was a film on the intersection of science and religion titled “Crossroads.”

My review in the print edition of Scientific American will be published in the June issue, out in mid May. I'm writing a longer review that will be published online at www.sciam.com on April 18, the day the film opens. Everyone is jumping the gun by a month here, playing out the entire debate before anyone even has a chance to see the film. So it goes in the Internet world of the blogosphere. Michael

Angry Christian (talk) 01:47, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

Coming To A Theater Near YOU!

Where Crossroads Expelled is scheduled to play You'll see 10 random locations until you put in your own city or zip code. It's showing at 3 locations in my city (a population of several million). Angry Christian (talk) 20:29, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

It's playing at 14 theaters in Alabama (Population: 4.4 million), but not a single one in New Jersey, Pennsylvania, Delaware, and Maryland (combined population: 26+ million). I find this greatly amusing. Raul654 (talk) 21:04, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

Playing at 56 theaters in Texas (population 24 million or so). Angry Christian (talk) 21:13, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

But how many are one-day-wonder showings arranged by church groups following the instructions the site helpfully provides? Shoemaker's Holiday (talk) 00:01, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

Preaching to the quire are we... 128.148.5.39 (talk) 00:07, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

Well, we've got reams of useful sermons ;) . . dave souza, talk 00:29, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

Clever play on words Dave. =) Saksjn (talk) 01:33, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

Reviews

"As a whole, Moore judged that the movie "makes good points about academic freedom and the ways unpopular ideas are shouted down in academia, the press and the culture", but "not offering evidence to back your side, where the burden of proof lies, makes the movie every bit as meaningful and silly as that transcendental metaphysical hooey of a couple of years back, What the Bleep Do We Know?".[62]"

We quote this, however, that first part is about the only positive line in a lengthy review - it seems to rather misrepresent the review's thrust to cut that bit out to emphasise. Shoemaker's Holiday (talk) 23:56, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

Can you elaborate, I'm not sure what you're saying. Angry Christian (talk) 00:09, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

Basically, , we're quoting the only positive sentence Moore says in his review, then following it with the sentence that follows, which is hardly the most negative. It seems like quote-mining in order to be able to say something good about it, and giving equal or better weight to the lone positive sentence while ignoring most of the negative comments. Shoemaker's Holiday (talk) 11:50, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

Robert Marks and William Dembski

Northfox just made a great improvement to the Robert Marks section. We should probably add a bit more about the infomatics web site controversy and also split William Dembski off from Robert Marks. Chronologically the controversies at Baylor began with Dembski so I think his section should preceed Marks'. Of course we'll need to create Dembski's section too. Anyhow... Angry Christian (talk) 01:58, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

New Scientist editor on 'Expelled'

I shot my hand up to ask a question. "The intelligent design movement has gone to great lengths to argue that intelligent design is not religion, that it's science. And you made a whole film arguing that it is religious. How do they react to that?"

"Well," Mathis said, "I guess it makes them a little uncomfortable."

...

He began calling on others in the crowd, who asked friendlier questions. But Maggie and I quickly realised that we'd seen some of these people before - earlier that evening, in fact, working at the movie's registration table. These friendly audience members worked for the film? Had Mathis planted questioners?

...

When Mathis was responding, the guy asked another question, and the producer shot back, "How about you let me finish talking?" Then, a security guard for the film approached the calmly seated man and told him, "I may have to ask you to leave."

"Does anyone else see how ironic this is?" the guy asked.

"Shut up!" someone shouted from the back.

...

I said that the film spent a lot of time making the point that proponents of evolution can't explain how life arose from non-life, and asked how intelligent design explains it.

It doesn't, he acknowledged. "Then don't you think it's strange that you tried to pin that on the scientists?" I asked.

"Well, it's a real hole in their theory," he said.

"Actually, it's not - the theory of evolution never purported to touch on the issue of how life arose from non-life, it's about how species arose from other species."

I said that in science, criticising someone else's theory doesn't make your theory right, and that the film never bothers to say how intelligent design explains anything at all. He countered that intelligent design says there are things that are too complex to be explained by natural selection.

I asked how ID explains the complexity, but he said, "I don't have time for this," and walked away.

Throughout the entire experience, Maggie and I couldn't help feeling that the polarised audience in the theater was a sort of microcosm of America, and let me tell you - it's a scary place. I also couldn't help thinking that the intelligent design folks aren't being silenced, so much as they're being silent. Because when it comes to actually explaining anything, they've got nothing to say.[12]

Hrafn^Talk_Stalk 03:31, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

The second quote WAS mentioned in the article for a while, but someone removed it. Shoemaker's Holiday (talk) 11:59, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

Might have been me who deleted it, someone added the same material in either the review or screening section and I then removed it from the other (they did not realize they were adding duplicate material). That said I think this entire review/experience should be in the article and we should use box quotes. It should stand out on its own. Angry Christian (talk) 13:01, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

Fully agree, this seems to be about an unspecified hearing, so would make a useful expansion of the Screenings section introduction. There's also a need to incorporate Darwin's review of the film itself,[13] the reference also covers PZ's expulsion, and a more detailed review of the film itself is online at "'Expelled Overview' by Josh Timonen, RichardDawkins.net - RichardDawkins.net". Retrieved 2008-03-26.. Sorry I'll be short of time for a while, hope someone can get all this incorporated. .. dave souza, talk 13:59, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

Who let Zombie Darwin into the film? Shoemaker's Holiday (talk) 14:04, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

Shhh no one is sposed to know Darwin attended a screening. Anyhow, what section do we want to include the New Scientist review? And how best to incorporate it? Angry Christian (talk) 14:43, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

Ooops! More haste, worse spelling :-/ Actually, if you read Timonen's review, Darwin features as a statue, lit to look like Darth Vader, looming over poor wee Stein. .. dave souza, talk 17:47, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

Given Stein's ethnicity, one could make all sorts of politically-incorrect jokes about his severe addiction to ham. ;) Hrafn^Talk_Stalk 17:51, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

<undent>I will point out that according to that summary of the film, Kitzmiller is discussed in the film.--Filll (talk) 15:23, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

Second paragraph

[I've numbered the sentences for convenience]

"1The film promotes intelligent design — the idea that there is evidence of a supernatural intelligence in biological processes, a form of creationism. 2The Discovery Institute which is the hub of the intelligent design movement, claims that it is a serious scientific research approach, and not creationism. 3However, Stein claims that the film presents evidence that scientists do not have the freedom to work within the framework of believing there is a God. 4What a reviewer describes as four or five examples of ordinary academic back-biting are presented in the film. 5It alleges that they are evidence of widespread persecution of educators and scientists who promote intelligent design, and of a conspiracy to keep God out of the nation’s laboratories and classrooms. 6Promotion of religion in American public schools violates the Establishment Clause of the First Amendment to the U.S. Constitution, and in the 2005 Kitzmiller v. Dover Area School District trial a United States federal court ruled that intelligent design is a religious view and not science, and so cannot be presented in science classes."

This is bordering on the incoherent. This paragraph has no central idea, the first two sentences only serve to contradict each other without adding information, the third sentence is unclear as to the point - I know the point is that God = creationism. BUT WE HAVE TO SPELL THAT OUT. The fourth sentence is similarly undeveloped, since it comes out of nowhere, the situation it refers to hasn't been mentioned yet. Sentence five tries to correct this, but in a cackhanded way. Sentence 6 has pretty much the same problems as the others. We know about ID. Others don't. Stop assuming they do, and explain the chains of logic and background. Shoemaker's Holiday (talk) 13:55, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

I would not find that hard to believe. I have watched what was a reasonably tightly argued discussion a few months ago slowly descend into more and more confusion under the force of frantic edits from all sides. Since I have rewritten this article completely at least twice, I am not really anxious to do it again, only to watch it suffer the same fate. The problem is, people are too excited about the upcoming movie and too much new news is appearing for it to be left alone. It is also not an important enough article to get the full weight of editing of the community like intelligent design. Let's face it; this movie probably will be a relative failure and will change few minds and will be forgotten a few months after it happened. I do not expect it to be a culture changing event like "An inconvenient truth".--Filll (talk) 14:06, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

The first sentence was based on the NYT article about the film, but the reference to that got deleted last night. I've restored it, and have trimmed one of the Kitz references while deleting another one as it was part of a section of the ruling already cited. ... dave souza, talk 14:16, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

Not to confuse matters but the lead has 4 paragraphs. 2 of those should probably go to the "Claims Made" section. That alone might clean some of this up. I had quite a bit of time yesterday but today I won't be able to do that much. Another thing I want to do is go through and eliminate all the duplicate points. Angry Christian (talk) 14:39, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

I've had a go at fixing it, though I mst say that all those references make editing a huge headache. Isn't there some sort of editing thingie that lets you collapse refs? One would think that with all the other slick editing stuff they make, soomeone would make something really useful.... Shoemaker's Holiday (talk) 23:16, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

More material

• blog with lots of links
• Feeding the Media Beast: An Easy Recipe for Great Publicity, Mark Mathis, Purdue University Press, 2002, ISBN 1557532478
• According to Mathis Media, Mathis is the "no spin doctor".
• EXPELLED Controversy Top Issue in Blogosphere, Premise Media Press Release, March 25, 2008

--Filll (talk) 16:34, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

I am trying to fold some of this in. Not too elegantly I am afraid.--Filll (talk) 16:45, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

Administrative action and NCdave

I personally am fed up with NCdave's ongoing campaign to disrupt the article. He continues to slap the POV tag after he has been told over and over to knock it off. His only complaint seems to be he personally does not like the article. I think administratiove action is warranted. Angry Christian (talk) 20:05, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

What a joke! The article IS POV, deny it all you want. From the needless quotes around "persecuted" (which is clearly there to demean the claim, since the sentence already clearly states that it is a claim, not a fact) to the needless "background" that overwhelms any material actually relating to the subject of the page, to the blatant disregard for Wiki standards shown by the coffee clatch of culture warriors discussing the subject of the film rather than the film itself on the edit page, this whole thing is a joke. The page has been hijacked by people who are actively trying to prove Conservapedia correct by setting itself up as the exact opposite, and loaded with the same degree of intellectual dishonesty all the while.

The page is a POV waste of space. I came here to read about THE FILM, not the debate that stands behind the film, and this page is absolutely useless for anyone actually trying to learn about the film. The writers have decided that if you should dare come here, you run too much of a risk of falling victim to the foul plans of the DI, and they need to put a great bulwark in place to make sure you don't make it all the way to the article without having been thoroughly schooled in the vast right-wing conspiracy to turn the nation into a theocracy. Oh noes!

Yes, it's POV as all get-out. I don't bother complaining about that, though because that's the least of the article's problems. It's totally illegible, meaningless, and a complete tangent from the start. With such a colossal waste of time, who really cares if it's POV anymore? Dolewhite (talk) 23:51, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

Dolewhite wrote, "the same degree of intellectual dishonesty". That's a pretty serious charge, you might want to consider either substantiating it, with specific examples and support, or backing off from it. Meanwhile, I'm unclear on why you should be upset to find discussion of a controversy on the page about a film that seeks to initiate discussion of a controversy. It's what the film is about, so naturally the WP page on it should touch upon the film's subject and aims. --Ichneumon (talk) 01:33, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

I see. Well thanks for your comments. Have a nice day! --Filll (talk) 23:57, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

I've given him a final warning Raul654 (talk) 00:02, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

Pray tell, on what grounds does tagging an article so highly disputed as this as NPOV warrant such action? I'm really, really starting to buy into the persecution theory of the film. You guys are incredible. Dolewhite (talk) 00:10, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

Well no valid reason for tagging it has been presented. If someone wanted to claim the English sucked in it, that I would agree with however (do we have a tag for bad English? I think we probably do). But while it is being changed so often and under attack, it is a bit difficult to clean up the language in it I am afraid.--Filll (talk) 00:16, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

Basically, pretty much every review discusses the debate behind the fgilm's premises. Wikipedia summarises reliable sources to create its articles, hence the debate, which appears in pretty much evry review, has to be included. Shoemaker's Holiday (talk) 00:23, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

Is this an encyclopedia, or is this a movie review? Dolewhite (talk) 00:31, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

Don't block NCdave. It seems that the POV issue is still under dispute, as there appear to be multiple users who believe that. JBFrenchhorn (talk) 00:35, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

People who believe our article should be a carbon copy of the Conservapedia article on the film are always going to claim we have POV issues. We have explained repeatedly why we have to write our article the way it is written; because of our rules. Now you can either accept that and abide by our rules, or leave, or argue tendentiously and disruptively. And if you argue tendentiously and disruptively, it is likely that eventually you will receive some sort of administrative sanction.

The same is true at Conservapedia. I guarantee you that if I did not "toe the party line" at Conservapedia, they would block me incredibly quickly. So? What is your point?--Filll (talk) 00:43, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

Ha ha ha ha ha!!! Call off your dogs, bro. I'm not claiming it *should* be a carbon copy of the Conservapedia article. I'm reflecting the view that Ice T once espoused: you can believe with some of what I say or most of what I say, but if you believe all of what I say or none of what I say, then only one of us is doing the thinking. This article in it's current form seems to be the exact antithesis of the Conservapedia article. It's not about the film, it's about what a completely stupid theory ID is and how ID is a mental poison that is trying to burn the Constitution and piss on its ashes. This article is becoming defined by the proponents of ID, as the opponents of ID work as hard as they can to ensure that the exact opposite viewpoint is solely expressed.

It looks to me like this whole thing is a clear violation of pillars 1, 2, and 4. It violates #1 by serving as a soapbox and collecting irrelevant, non-encyclopedic concatenations of factoids and opinions. It violates #2 by refusing to remain neutral and refusing to balance biased claims with counter-claims. And it violates #4 by turning into a completely petty collection of disputes. Here you are, trying to threaten me with administrative action when I've done absolutely nothing whatsoever to earn any such scorn. Comment ironique, non? Dolewhite (talk) 00:54, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

I'd also add that it seems to be a blatant lie that you suggest it's "because of our rules" that this is turning into a war. Look above. When I first asked the question, I got a bunch of claims that it was the other side that started it, or it was preemption because the other side would nit pick the matter. It has nothing to do with rules, and you've all admitted that point above. It has to do with blocking the dreaded "other side." You ignored professor marginalia's apt criticisms entirely. Dolewhite (talk) 00:58, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

Filll, are you suggesting that I should be blocked for not "toeing the party line" here at Wikipedia? NCdave (talk) 01:13, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

Raul, on my user Talk page you asserted that you can block me because "The rules prohibit me from blocking someone I am currently in a dispute with. You do not qualify."

But we most certainly are in dispute here. You are actively involved with editing this article and talk page, and you have sided against me repeatedly. For example, you have reinserted material that I explicitly objected to, regarding the Establishment Clause. Perhaps you were unaware of my objection to that material, since Hrafn deleted the discussion from the Talk page, but you can read it in the diff.

Additionally, you reverted edits which were in agreement with my stated view that ID is not a form of creationism.

Additionally, you've made no secret of your disdain for the film, even to the point of expressing glee that it is playing in few theaters, and reverting other edits which were intended to make the article less unbalanced, and defending incivility on the Talk page.

You are not a neutral admin, Raul, so please recuse yourself.

Also, please do me the courtesy of <s>striking</s> your "warning" on my Talk page, and noting that it was a mistake, since it is embarrassing to have that sort of thing on my Talk page.

Nevertheless, if you are aware of any comments that I've made which are impolite or violate Wikipedia's policies or guidelines, I would be grateful if you would point them out to me. I do my best to apply the Golden Rule to my Wikipedia editing, but that doesn't mean that I never slip up, and I'd like to know about it when I do. NCdave (talk) 01:13, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

That is a lot of tough talk and bluster and ranting, with very little content folks. Perhaps you might want to reconsider your stances before this gets ugly? I will not even bother to refute all the nonsense spewed here. Sorry.--Filll (talk) 01:27, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

Thanks Raul654. Angry Christian (talk) 01:38, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

NCDave: your objections the Establishment Clause language was proven to be without merit (by the controlling SCOTUS precedent on the issue, no less -- which employed almost identical language), yet you continued to try to turn this talkpage into a WP:SOAPBOX for your WP:FRINGE views on the subject. You have offered no credible objections to this article's neutrality, nor any that that haven't been comprehensively rebutted. You therefore have no legitimate basis for a POV-template. You are the very model of a disruptive editor. I am frankly sick of your futile and pointless disruption. Hrafn^Talk_Stalk 02:08, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

I can't begin to express how much I agree. Your objections to the inclusion of Kitmiller was baseless and disruptive. Your constant POV tagging is baseless and disruptive and I'm still astonished you claim to know anything about ID while admitting you have no idea who Michael Behe is. Your arguing here on the talk page squelches those who are trying to make improvements to the article but no one can hear them over the nonsense you bring to the table. What exactly have you contributed to the article other than baseless claims on the talk page? Angry Christian (talk) 02:16, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

Same story, different town. NCdave is engaging in precisely identical behavior on global warming-related articles. As an example, he has disputed the use of a term by the joint science academies of the major industrialized nations because it doesn't fit his interpretation of the dictionary definition of the word. Unfortunately Wikipedia does not do a good job of dealing with editors who have learned to play the WP:CIVIL game while engaging in tendentious editing that exhausts the patience of others. Raymond Arritt (talk) 02:24, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

The article itself is an enormous soapbox. The whole intro focuses primarily on how incorrect ID and the DI are and very, very little on the actual FILM ITSELF. Can anyone point to where NCDave is trying to force a POV into the matter? And that's a serious question--this page has spun out of control, and I've read most of it, but not all of it. It seems to me that NCDave is trying to remove POV in good faith. However, a vocal group has decided that the best way to win the war against ID is to force the presumption that the fight is already over, and deny any possibility that open-mindedness should be considered neutral.

Look at the length of this page. Has anyone addressed the concerns raised by Professor Marginalia? Are we now smearing the good name of that man too by the presumption that he's a shill for the religious right? His comments are valid, and aren't in any way about trying to make this article carry a POV. Is there any chance remaining that people aiming for a fair discussion of the FILM will manage to stand forward and turn this into an encyclopedic article, rather than a long and tortuous rant against ID and the DI? Dolewhite (talk) 03:15, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

Well, since my name has been raised in this, let me chime in here. To be fair, it's important to re-iterate that the ball was put back in my court on these challenges (rightly so). I was asked to come back with specifics so others can better understand my concerns, and that was a fitting response to my challenges. If I could be quicker about it, my response would be done already. But as I cautioned earlier, I'm struggling to wrap my arms around this article because it is so all-over-the-place. I'm not focused only on NPOV-really, I'm focusing on sourcing now, because of overall intelligibility chiefly, but also OR and NPOV. NPOV follows good sourcing--editors have to determine weight to issues by objective review of the best sources.

I've seen too much time wasted at WP unnecessarily to let this opportunity for a PSA go by. Tags don't fix problems. Tags may draw attention to problems. However, if one finds they're edit warring to keep a tag, the attention quickly shifts from problems in articles to problems with an editor's behavior. These conflicts between editors can be the fault of POV pushers. They can also be the result of editors who can not understand each other. Editors who are here to push a POV need to find another website. But editors who are trying to understand how to communicate the subject in the most honest and direct way to readers need to listen as much as they need to talk. I'm just sayin'.....I have problems with the article. It's my job now to explain them better. Professor marginalia (talk) 03:56, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

NCDave appears to be attempting to defend Wikipedia from subversives who want to turn it into a propaganda vehicle. I heartily endorse his efforts. Until this article becomes something other than a long-winded rant against the viewpoints expressed by the movie, it should be tagged for NPOV. Aminorex (talk) 01:40, 1 April 2008 (UTC)

"it is generally considered such by scientists and researchers of the phenomenon"

I've added a citation request for this assertion, but I'd also like to know what "phenomenon" it is referring to. There's nothing in the text of the introduction up to that point about a "phenomenon." NCdave (talk) 00:30, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

...Um... Intelligent design itself? And there's about 5 references immefdiately following the sentence? Shoemaker's Holiday (talk) 00:31, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

The only complaint I would have is the English needs a bit of work. But what do you expect with so many changes so quickly, and so much turmoil?--Filll (talk) 00:44, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

Perhaps it shouldn't be referred to as a phenomenon. How could this be rewarded? JBFrenchhorn (talk) 00:55, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

How about "the movement" instead of "the phenomenon"? --Ichneumon (talk) 01:35, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

"Theory?" NCdave (talk) 01:52, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

or "Hypothesis?" NCdave (talk) 01:53, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

There is no ID hypothesis and we will not be calling it a theory anytime soon (it is not). I think we should go with something closer to this:

The film promotes intelligent design — the idea that there is evidence of a supernatural intelligence in biological processes. Intelligent design is considered creationism and/or pseudoscience by the scientific community. The Discovery Institute, which is the hub of the intelligent design movement, has always maintained intelligent design is a serious scientific research approach and insists it is not creationism. This issue was brought before a Federal court in the Kitzmiller v. Dover trial. The court found that intelligent design "cannot uncouple itself from its creationist, and thus religious, antecedents.".

I did not copy all the refs over, just looking for sentence structure and contect at this point. Angry Christian (talk) 02:01, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

As the sentence currently stands, it is too long. Angry Christian, your version does use better form than the current version, though I don't think all that should be stated. But I think we should state it as movement for now, as Ichneumon suggested. And we should mention that the "scientists and researches" that are referred to are not those scientists and researchers who believe in ID. I would prefer to use the word theory late on.

Incidentally, does all this information (assertions of what is and isn't ID) should be included in the intro to the article. This article is about a movie, not about what who claims about the movie's topic. And the topic of the movie is not whether or not ID is creationism. JBFrenchhorn (talk) 02:16, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

You know JBF, I have answered this ridiculous objection about 20 times already. Why do you not look for my comments about this above, or in the archives? This really is without merit for many reasons.-Filll (talk) 02:22, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

I think you're looking for WP:IDIDNTHEARTHAT. HTH. Raymond Arritt (talk) 02:40, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

Discovery Institute was not a party, and did not file a brief, in Kitzmiller. The judge in Kitzmiller did not rule on any DI claims or arguments. NCdave (talk) 11:33, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

The DI did not have to be a party to KvD for the court to rule on contentions that the DI had long and vocally made (particularly when they were placed front and centre before the court by expert testimony from two DI fellows and by a DI amicus brief). Hrafn^Talk_Stalk 11:43, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

The DI did file an Amicus brief in the Kitzmiller case. [14](sorry this is my first ever edit...no user account yet)192.112.2.60 (talk) 13:34, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

NCdave half of the time wasting nonsense would be eliminated if you would familiarize yourself with the subject matter. Giving you Kitzmiller lessons here is a pain in the ass waste of our time. Please get educated or pick a topic for which you have at least a marginal understanding of. Have you even read Jone's entire ruling? Have you even read the testimony given by both sides? Have you even read all the briefs submitted to the court? Many if not most of us have taken the time to educate ourselves and your lack of knowledge has proven to be an obstacle here. It would be most helpful if you would take some time to familiarize yourself with Kitzmiller if you plan to make any more comments on the subject. Thank you for your cooporation Angry Christian (talk) 16:38, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

Edit needed

The following needs to be changed:

The film also discusses the consequences of the Kitzmiller trial, which forbids the teaching of intelligent design in American public schools, as promotion of religion by the government violates the Establishment Clause of the First Amendment to the U.S. Constitution.

The paired commas makes the bit about the Kitzmiller trial a parenthetical statement, and hence it would appear that the film discusses the trial as a promotion of religion.

Furthermore, there's a problem with saying that it violates the constitution. Judicial rulings change from time to time. The 14th amendment didn't change between Plessy v. Ferguson and Brown v. Board of Education. What changed were the rulings and their resultant precedent. My rewrite would be to the following:

The film also discusses the consequences of Kitzmiller v. Dover Area School District, wherein a federal judge ruled the teaching of intelligent design in public schools is a violation of the First Amendment to the United States Constitution.

If that's kosher with all y'all, I'd like to make that change. Dolewhite (talk) 03:39, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

The existing grammar is unclear, however I do not support your proposed change. Better wording would be: "The film also discusses the consequences of the Kitzmiller trial which forbids, as promotion of religion by the government and thus a violation of the Establishment Clause of the First Amendment to the U.S. Constitution, the teaching of intelligent design in American public schools." Hrafn^Talk_Stalk 04:12, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

The *trial* doesn't forbid anything. The ruling does. That sentence is a run-on nightmare. If you don't understand that the first amendment contains the establishment clause, then click on the link. That's way too much information for a single sentence. Dolewhite (talk) 04:38, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

I agree the original language is tortuous at best. I have a couple minor issues with Dolewhite's suggested change, while finding Hrafn's still rather hard to follow for the average reader. I like Dolewhite's version better, but I'd drop "wherein a federal judge" and simply have it read, "..., which ruled the...". And there ought to be some quick mention of *why* the teaching of Intelligent Design was considered afoul of the First Amendment, something along the lines of, "...a violation of the First Amendment to the United States Constitution because it promoted a religious position." Also, this isn't the place to get into it, but the Kitzmiller decision didn't actually prohibit "the teaching of intelligent design" per se, it only prohibited teaching of ID performed similar to the manner attempted in Dover. It would still be allowable to "teach ID" in a purely secular manner, or as a topic in a religious study class, just not (as was attempted in Dover and almost everywhere else people have attempted to introduce "ID" to a curriculum) as a vehicle by which to make students more receptive to creationist views. --Ichneumon (talk) 04:26, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

Again, the *case* didn't "rule" anything. The judge did. A judge is a person, and a person can do things. The abstract 'trial' is not an actor. As for the why, I'd suggest I throw in "the establishment clause" of the first amendment. So how about:

The film also discusses the consequences of Kitzmiller v. Dover Area School District, wherein a federal judge ruled the teaching of intelligent design in public schools is a violation of the Establishment Clause of the First Amendment to the United States Constitution.

Better? Dolewhite (talk) 04:38, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

Readers are well aware that judges are responsible for case rulings. The extra verbiage adds nothing, and a quick Google turns up tens of thousands of examples of language along the lines of, "the decision ruled that..." As a compromise, how about, "...the consequences of Kitzmiller blah, which prohibits the teaching of..." Even after the judge has gone home, the case itself now prohibits such teaching. --Ichneumon (talk) 04:54, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

Sources such as Larson use terms like "essentially" to characterize similar ambiguities in earlier anti-evolution cases. Didn't Kitzmiller explicitly only "forbid" the Dover version of ID presented at trial? Professor marginalia (talk) 04:32, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

Explicitly, yes, but by implication it (and all other court decisions) have the effect of also affecting other situations which would be "essentially" similar enough to run afoul of the same criteria used to nix the one explicitly struck down. --Ichneumon (talk) 04:54, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

I agree that the current wording needs changing. However, it is inaccurate to say that "Kitzmiller... prohibits the teaching of," because the case is valid precedent only in the Middle District of Pennsylvania, and also because even in the Middle District of Pennsylvania what it prohibited was not the teaching of ID, but the requirement to teach it. It is not a gag order on science teachers.

What's more, "Establishment Clause" is the wrong term. The "Establishment Clause," itself, says nothing at all about schools, it only restricts "Congress." In fact, when it was adopted most States had "establishments of religion" (official State-supported churches). Ironically, Congress still has daily prayers, which are not deemed to violate the Establishment clause, but in the schools prayers are prohibited, ostensibly by the Establishment Clause. In truth, it was not the Establishment Clause which prohibited school prayer and the support of religion in public K-12 schools, it was an activist SCOTUS, ruling supposedly on the basis of the 14th and 1st Amendments in combination, after the authors and ratifiers of both those Amendments were all safely in their graves (along with most of their grandchildren), with an interpretation of that Amendment that would have astounded those authors. So, rather than saying "Establishment Clause," we should simply refer to (un)constitutionality, which gets the job done without wading into this whole ugly can of worms.

I tried to fix this, but was immediately reverted, and Hrafn then also deleted the discussion of a possible compromise wording from the Talk page (contravening WP:Talk).

The compromise wording we were narrowing in on was something along the lines of, "according to current U.S. Supreme Court precedent, promotion of religion in American public schools is unconstitutional." So what do you folks think about a wording like this:

The film also discusses the consequences of Kitzmiller v. Dover Area School District, wherein a federal district judge for the Middle District of Pennsylvania ruled that it is unconstitutional to require the teaching of intelligent design in public schools.

The three key points are:

• We need to just refer to (un)constitutionality, since the basis for that alleged unconstitutionality is much more complex than just "the establishment clause" or "the 14th amendment," and a discussion of 14th Amendment Incorporation is way, way beyond the scope of this article.
• Kitzmiller did not prohibit teaching ID, it prohibited a requirement to teach it. The difference is important.
• The Kitzmiller case is not a generally binding precedent. It applies only to the Middle District of Pennsylvania.

So, what do you folks think of that wording? NCdave (talk) 09:52, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

Yet more WP:IDIDNTHEARTHAT from NCdave. What we "need" is for you to stop repeating this baseless, discredited line about the Establishment Clause. Hrafn^Talk_Stalk 11:50, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

You might find the Incorporation (Bill of Rights) article informative, Hrafn. NCdave (talk) 12:30, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

The Kitzmiller verdict is regarded as a "broad ruling", usable as a legal precedent for all similar cases throughout America (in the sense that any attempt to introduce ID in a similar fashion elsewhere will be swiftly dismissed because it would be a rehash of Kitzmiller). Therefore any claim that the precedent is technically limited to just that district is essentially moot: legally, ID is dead. --Robert Stevens (talk) 12:34, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

NCdave, I'd like to second what Hrafn and Robert Stevens have said. They are correct, and your attempts at nit-picking do not add anything to the discussion, much less the WP articles. Like it or not, the Kitzmiller decision does indeed have the effect of nixing the teaching of "ID" as a surrogate for creationism in all public schools. This remains the case until/if someone mounts a successful challenge to it somewhere. Until then, however, you haven't a leg to stand on. Deal with it. You also need to deal with the fact that your personal interpretation of the Establishment clause and its judicial/legislative implications is not the one that holds sway in the courts. And your irrelevant side issues (such as the fact that Congress has prayers) does nothing to change that. Maybe you can't figure out why, but if anything this is only more reason for you to sit back and leave the subject to those who do actually understand the subject well enough to not keep tilting at windmills. In short, your repeated attempts to force your personal viewpoint into articles instead of describing the world as it actually exists are more disruptive and irritating than useful. --Ichneumon (talk) 17:05, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

NCdave, ID can be taught in Dover, just not portrayed as science in science class. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Angry Christian (talk • contribs) 13:01, 27 March 2008 (UTC) Oops Angry Christian (talk) 13:03, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

Robert, the term "broad" as in "broad ruling" is descriptive of what the ruling says, and has nothing to do with where the ruling is binding. Appellate-level courts can create binding precedents within their jurisdictions, but Judge Jones is not an appellate judge. The decision is binding only in the particular case, though it is likely to be respected as non-binding precedent within rest of the Middle District of Pennsylvania.

Consider the opinion of Barbara Forrest, who was an expert witness for the ACLU in the case, and who is on the board of the New Orleans Secular Humanist Association. She speculated that the reason Discovery Institute did not participate in the case was their concern that the Dover policy was on shaky legal grounds. She wrote, "The problem, however, was that DI did not want this case because the Dover board, urged on by TMLC, had explicitly crafted its policy to promote “intelligent design.”"

Ichneumon, welcome to the discussion. I plead guilty to nit-picking. In fact, if you click on my name you will see that the one thing I say about myself is that I am a "sticker stickler" for truth and accuracy. Even if an inaccuracy is a "nit," I still want it fixed. Don't you?

Discovery Institute's position is (and always has been) opposed to requirements like Dover's, which require teaching ID. Here's is what they say:

Discovery Institute's science education policy has been consistent and clear. We strongly believe that teaching about intelligent design is constitutionally permissible, but we think mandatory inclusion of intelligent design in public school curricula is ill-advised. Instead, we recommend that schools require only that the scientific evidence for and against neo-Darwinism be taught, while not infringing on the academic freedom of teachers to present appropriate information about intelligent design if they choose. Although we believe teaching about intelligent design is constitutionally permissible, we think mandating intelligent design politicizes what should be a scientific debate and harms the efforts of scientists who support design to gain a fair hearing in the scientific community.[15]

The difference between requiring and permitting is important enough that DI's participation in the Kitzmiller case hinged on that difference, and they ultimately declined to participate because Dover's policy was mandatory. So I think you'll agree that at least the 2nd of my three bullets is no nit.

Now, can we please discuss the specifics of the proposed compromise wording? What do you folks think about this version:

The film also discusses the consequences of Kitzmiller v. Dover Area School District, wherein a federal district judge for the Middle District of Pennsylvania ruled that it is unconstitutional to require the teaching of intelligent design in public schools.

Is there anything there that anyone thinks is inaccurate, unbalanced, or even just clumsily worded? NCdave (talk) 19:00, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

NCdave, if you're not going to listen to what other people say, I see no point in repeating the same material over again for you to ignore again. Suffice to say that I do not agree to your proposed rewording. For reasons why, look above, and stop your time-wasting attempts to succeed by repetition that which you have not achieved the first time. And no, it's not worth being a "sticker [sic]" for truth and accuracy when your attempted "fixes" muddle the issue more than they clarify it, and/or give a misleading impression to the reader unfamiliar with the details of the topic. --Ichneumon (talk) 19:23, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

Yeah, that was a typo. My page actually says "stickler." Thanks for the correction, Ichneumon. (How embarrassing to have a typo in a sentence about being a stickler for truth and accuracy!)

However, accuracy does not "muddle" or "mislead." Thus far, nobody has identified any problems with the proposed sentence. But the current version is misleading or inaccurate in multiple ways. Here it is again:

The film also discusses the consequences of the Kitzmiller trial, which forbids the teaching of intelligent design in American public schools, as promotion of religion by the government violates the Establishment Clause of the First Amendment to the U.S. Constitution.

Look at all the inaccuracies in that sentence:

• The Kitzmiller trial didn't forbid anything, the presiding judge did. (Okay, this one's a nit.)
• Judge Jones didn't forbid teaching intelligent design, he blocked the requirement to make teachers read a statement about intelligent design. (This is definitely not a nit.)
• Jones' decision didn't forbid anything in the "American public schools," his ruling applied only to the Dover schools. (This is definitely not a nit.)
• "The government" is a misnomer, and an important one, since what is prohibited to one level of government is not always prohibited to others. (Okay, this one's maybe a nit, but it is kind of a pet peeve of mine.)
• Promotion of religion by government has not been held by the courts to violate the constitution in all cases. For example, the Congress and State legislatures customarily open with daily prayer, the military employs chaplains, currency displays the motto "In God We Trust," etc. (This is not a nit.)
• It is a gross oversimplification to say that the Establishment Clause (alone) enjoins government promotion of religion; see Incorporation_(Bill_of_Rights). (You might think this is a nit, but I do not.)

That's six inaccuracies in just one sentence! Admittedly, a couple of them are nits. But even nits should be fixed. The proposed version fixes them all. So won't you please discuss it? NCdave (talk) 22:06, 27 March & 22:10, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

Pertinent to bullets 2 and 3, this is what Judge Jones ordered:

"...we will enter an order permanently enjoining Defendants from maintaining the ID Policy in any school within the Dover Area School District, from requiring teachers to denigrate or disparage the scientific theory of evolution, and from requiring teachers to refer to a religious, alternative theory known as ID."

(The "ID Policy" was the school district's requirement "that, commencing in January 2005, teachers would be required to read the following statement [regarding ID] to students in the ninth grade biology class at Dover High School...")

Note that Judge Jones' order applied to the Dover Area School District, not to "American public schools." Also, note that he enjoined the school district from requiring teachers to mention ID, or requiring them to "denigrate or disparage" evolution. He did not forbid teachers from teaching or disparaging anything at all. NCdave (talk) 02:37, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

May I assume, from the lack of replies/argument, that there is no disagreement with this list of inaccuracies in the current sentence, and thus no disagreement with the need to fix it? NCdave (talk) 14:15, 30 March 2008 (UTC)

No. You can take from this that we're sick to death of your tendentious, disruptive & WP:IDIDNTHEARTHAT comments and have given up on searching through this way-over-bloated talk page to find them repeated over and over and over and over and over and over and over over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over over and over and over and over and over and over and over. Hrafn^Talk_Stalk 14:58, 31 March 2008 (UTC)

The Kitmiller case established that ID is not science. Period. Rather, it is religious creationism. Period. Because ID is religion and not science, it will never be legal to teach it as science within American state schools anywhere: ID won't suddenly become science if it's taught in the next district, nor if it isn't made mandatory by the school board. That is the actual consequence of the Kitzmiller ruling, regardless of any technical details. That's why the DI is now complaining that Jones "shouldn't have ruled" on whether ID is science: because it is accepted that he DID so rule. --Robert Stevens (talk) 15:18, 31 March 2008 (UTC)

Well if a later judicial ruling overturns Kitzmiller, something highly unlikely to happen now, this might be reversed. The precedent established by this ruling is the thing that hurts ID badly. And I do not quite understand all the complaining about our wording; it appears accurate to me.

I also do not understand all the whining from the creationist community on this issue. What they really want is the right to force other people's children to be indoctrinated into the beliefs of their particular narrow miniscule minority religious sects, in public secular schools, using public funds, in science classes, and to force teachers to do it using the power of the state (police, jails, fines, etc). This is just pure nonsense, and of course it is opposed as unreasonable, which it should be. What if I tried to force your churches to preach that all their beliefs were nonsense every Sunday, or else I would put your preachers in jail? And forced your churches to pay for this? When you examine this in a bit of detail, the entire arguments fall apart.--Filll (talk) 15:32, 31 March 2008 (UTC)

The KvD case is analogous to the McLean case. "Creation science" got its clock cleaned in McLean, but only for Arkansas, since the state of Arkansas declined to appeal the decision. The Edwards case got taken to the Supreme Court, and that's the decision that applies nationwide and is precedential for "creation science". McLean, though, certainly influenced the courts, and is largely the reason that the plaintiffs in Louisiana got a summary judgment leading to the Edwards case. As some wag put it, ID has had its McLean but not its Edwards. --Wesley R. Elsberry (talk) 15:45, 31 March 2008 (UTC)

Filll, you have some misconceptions regarding the ID hypothesis and its supporters. Nobody I've heard of who supports it wants "the right to force other people's children to be indoctrinated into the beliefs of their particular narrow miniscule minority religious sects, in public secular schools, using public funds, in science classes, and to force teachers to do it using the power of the state (police, jails, fines, etc)." Certainly there's no indication that any of the people involved with this movie hold such a view. Unfortunately, however, there are plenty of folks like Dawkins who demand that other people's children be indoctrinated with atheism in the schools. NCdave (talk)

NCdave, again you are confused and, to be blunt, flat out wrong (I guess this should not be too surprising, considering that you had never heard of Behe, the most important scientist in Intelligent Design, and the one scientist on whose testimony the Intelligent Design case rested on in KvD, yet you claim to be an ID expert and presume to lecture us on what ID is about and what ID people and supporters think about every single issue with some presumed authority and knowledge).

You should of course know that Dawkins is on record, numerous times, in print and in his books, of advocating the teaching of mandatory religion classes and comparative religion classes in publicly funded government secular schools (for example, read The God Delusion). You should also know that Dawkins at one time signed a petition arguing that religious upbringing of children should be illegal, but then withdrew his support for this campaign when he realized this would prevent the teaching of religion classes as he wanted in public secular schools with public tax money. That is not really promoting atheism, but choice, right? More information, not less. Knowing what the organizing principle is behind biology, that is subscribed to by over 99.9% of all professional biologists (over 99.99% by my calculations) is not about teaching atheism. If it causes trouble for biblical literalists, well their beliefs are either too fragile, or they need to consider other options for their children's educations, which are of course available to them. What they really are doing is not worrying about their own children's education (which they can already accommodate in many different ways), but wanting to force other people's children to get exposed to their own ridiculous beliefs.

The creationists and intelligent design proponents push to have less information available, so people have fewer choices, and less information on which to base their decisions. In state after state, and now in Florida, the intelligent design movement is all about forcing others to pay to promote the narrow religious beliefs of a tiny segment of the US population and an infinitesimally small fraction of Christendom and the world's population, and forcing others to preach their religious beliefs. Read the Wedge Document. Listen to the interviews with the producers of the film, or the interviews seeking to promote the film. These are not good people, or honest people. And before you promote their agenda much more, you should understand it a bit better.--Filll (talk) 18:10, 2 April 2008 (UTC)

I can present a whole host of examples where ID advocates have attempted to have children "indoctrinated" with fallacious, religiously-motivated "criticisms" of evolution -- the Kansas & Ohio SBOEs come immediately to mind. Also, I would ask you to substantiate or retract your claim that Dawkins "demand[s] that other people's children be indoctrinated with atheism in the schools." He may demand that they be taught accurate science, and may disapprove of them being indoctrinated with religion, but I highly doubt if he's ever demanded atheism indoctrination. Hrafn^Talk_Stalk 17:26, 2 April 2008 (UTC)

Wesley, you are correct about the court cases. As a matter of law, Judge Jones' ruling applies only to the Dover Area School District. Federal district judges do not create binding precedents for the whole country.

Also, Jones' order did not prohibit teaching about ID, it only prohibited a requirement to teach about ID. (Aside: the McLean and Edwards decisions regarding creation science also only prohibited a requirement to teach creation science.) NCdave (talk) 16:00, 2 April 2008 (UTC)

Given that it was a "requirement to teach about ID" that he was ruling on, that is hardly surprising. However, his findings of fact and law would equally apply to 'unrequired' teaching in public schools as well. That is the power of a legal precedent -- it doesn't apply to just identical situations, but situations with sufficient similarity. And while it might not be binding outside the Federal District, it is likely to be influential (in the same way that Epperson v. Arkansas‎ was). Hrafn^Talk_Stalk 17:26, 2 April 2008 (UTC)

Agreed, the Kitzmiller decision might influence future decisions. But it is not binding anywhere except in the Dover Area Schools. As it was not an appellate decision, it has no authority as a precedent elsewhere. So it isn't accurate to say that it "might not be binding" outside the Dover Area Schools. It is not binding anywhere else, there's no "might" about it. NCdave (talk) 00:14, 9 April 2008 (UTC)

The current sentence about Kitzmiller in this Wikipedia article is wildly inaccurate. May we please discuss how to fix it? Here is a proposed replacement:

The film also discusses the consequences of Kitzmiller v. Dover Area School District, wherein a federal district judge for the Middle District of Pennsylvania ruled that it is unconstitutional to require teaching about intelligent design in public schools.

That doesn't explicitly make the point that Jones' decision applies only to the Dover Area Schools, but that might be more detail that is really necessary. Would anyone care to suggest improvements? Wesley, what do you think? NCdave (talk) 16:00, 2 April 2008 (UTC)

I still disagree with this heavily watered-down wording. Hrafn^Talk_Stalk 17:26, 2 April 2008 (UTC)

The only "watering down" I did in in that sentence was to omit the clear statement that the decision applies only to the Dover Area Schools. We could say:

The film also discusses the consequences of Kitzmiller v. Dover Area School District, wherein a federal district judge for the Middle District of Pennsylvania ruled that it is unconstitutional to require teaching about intelligent design in the Dover, PA public schools.

So what, specifically, don't you like about it, Hrafn? NCdave (talk) 00:14, 9 April 2008 (UTC)

...I'm sorry, but one or more of three things are true: 1. You have no knowledge of how legal systems ANYWHERE work. 2. You are a ridiculously tendentious editor or 3. ...Well, WP:CIVIL doesn't allow me to say 3.

"ruled that it is unconstitutional to require teaching about intelligent design in the Dover, PA public schools." That is one of the most idiotic suggestions I have ever seen. Shoemaker's Holiday (talk) 00:33, 9 April 2008 (UTC)

Reverting edits

Okay, let us look at the two versions here and discuss changes.

The film blames the theory of evolution for a range of what are portrayed as societal ills, from Communism to Planned Parenthood, while failing to define or explain either evolution or its supposed alternative, intelligent design.[12] The evidence that this scientific theory is responsible for social problems does not exist.[15] Within the scientific community the theory of evolution is accepted by scientific consensus[16] and intelligent design is not considered to be valid science,[17][18][19] but is viewed as creationism.[20]

vs.

The film claims that the theory of evolution is responsible for a range of what are portrayed as negative consequences, including communism, fascism, atheism, the Holocaust, and Planned Parenthood, while failing to define or explain either evolution or its supposed alternative, intelligent design.[12] Critics of this perspective point out that such claims are based in anecdotes, assumptions, or limited analyses, with no reliable studies to back this claim.[15] Within the scientific community the theory of evolution is accepted by scientific consensus[16] and intelligent design is considered to be pseudoscience,[17][18][19] due to its failure to make falsifiable hypotheses.[20]

Why is the second POV? What's the complaint here, exactly? Dolewhite (talk) 05:00, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

I'm not sure why. For what it's worth, I prefer the second one. The statement in the first that "the evidence [...] does not exist" seems a bit overstated, whereas the second version ("critics [...] point out that such claims are...") seems less disputable. --Ichneumon (talk) 05:07, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

1. "Claim" and "point out" are WP:WTAs.
2. If we are to use a language from the cited paper, it would be informative to look at the direct quote: "Agreement with the hypothesis that belief in a creator is beneficial to societies is largely based on assumption, anecdotal accounts, and on studies of limited scope and quality restricted to one population" (emphasis mine -- a word that somehow got missed from the new language. "Agreement" based upon "assumption" implies evidence doesn't exist).
3. ID is creationism, specifically Neo-creationism. The list of science's legitimate reasons for dismissing it would fill an entire book. Giving only one of them underplays the scientific argument.

Hrafn^Talk_Stalk 05:45, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

The word "claim" is to be avoided because it has a tendency to undermine the content. A mere tendency. Yet you have no problem at all with stating categorically that the evidence DOES NOT EXIST. Not that it hasn't been found, no, but that it cannot be found because it isn't out there. That's a disingenuous claim. Likewise, "point out" is criticized in the WP:WTA as it gives extra weight; it certainly doesn't give more weight than passing the opinion as direct fact.

The second point strikes me as nit-picking, but it still doesn't justify completely undoing the edits. If you want to see the language more closely mirrored, then change "assumptions" to "assumption" and "anecdotes" to "anecdotal evidence." I'd contend that the differences there are insubstantial, and the point of Wikipedia is not to be a collection of verbatim quotes alone. There's no justification in this claim for completely reverting it to the former version, which is even further from the information linked.

Finally, it has been stated again about a dozen times in the article that the consensus view is ID is form of creationism. You state it again and again and again and again and it's in the footnotes a few dozen times, too. There are many criticisms, but I'd contend firstly that the agreement on ID as pseudoscience is of primary importance, and second that the primary problem the scientific community would agree upon is that ID lacks the requisite falsifiability to be considered a scientific theory. As this is an encyclopedia article (in theory), it seems to me more useful to the reader to articulate the primary reasons for rejecting ID, rather than this litany of equivocation that only seems to me to confirm the suspicions of the ID community.

I really don't understand why opponents to ID are so dead-set on silencing the ID crowd. The entire force of intellectual honesty and good science weighs in on the part of Darwin's theory of evolution by natural selection. It seems counter-productive to engage in bush-league propagandists when honesty and truth favor presenting the material in unambiguous terms. I don't know what you expect to accomplish by making these edits that lead to such a heavy-handed article which clearly displays an intellectual dishonesty and an attempt to force the conversation.

This debate won't be settled by the film Expelled, and it certainly won't be settled by the intro to the Wikipedia article about the film Expelled. So let's just make an honest and encyclopedic article about THE FILM, and let the data speak for themselves, m'kay? Dolewhite (talk) 06:25, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

I've attempted a compromise between the latest reverted-to & reverted-from versions. The article is still extremely unbalanced, but it would be a good first step if we could try to find some compromises. My version is about halfway[16][17] between Dave souza's and Dolewhite's. NCdave (talk) 10:06, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

Well, that was obviously a waste of time.  :-(

How are we to ever achieve consensus, if some editors just revert without discussion or any willingness to compromise?

For instance, one of the two tiny bits of text that I retained from Dolewhite in the compromise version was this:

"Intelligent design is not considered to be valid science, due to its failure to make falsifiable hypotheses."

The current version is:

"Intelligent design is not considered to be valid science, but as creationist pseudoscience."

Can we talk about this? NCdave (talk) 19:55, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

The film blames the theory of evolution for a range of what are portrayed as societal ills

vs

The film claims that the theory of evolution is responsible for a range of what are portrayed as negative consequences

The first one is much more readable. From what I have read the film does "blame" evolution. From what I have read, it's an assertion, not a case where the evidence is discussed.

from Communism to Planned Parenthood,

vs

including communism, fascism, atheism, the Holocaust, and Planned Parenthood

The first one flows much better. There's no need to list everything that they lay at the feet of evolution

The evidence that this scientific theory is responsible for social problems does not exist.

vs

Critics of this perspective point out that such claims are based in anecdotes, assumptions, or limited analyses, with no reliable studies to back this claim

"Critics...claim" is always bad form. We should avoid it. Presenting an obvious falsehood as a "perspective" is misleading.

Within the scientific community the theory of evolution is accepted by scientific consensus[16] and intelligent design is not considered to be valid science,[17][18][19] but is viewed as creationism.

vs

Within the scientific community the theory of evolution is accepted by scientific consensus[16] and intelligent design is considered to be pseudoscience,[17][18][19] due to its failure to make falsifiable hypotheses

I don't like "by scientific consensus" - it's too weak. Evolutionary biology is the foundation of modern biology. We don't say that "the theory of the element" is accepted by consensus in modern chemistry. The incompatibility of ID with science comes from its creationism, not its failure to make falsifiable hypotheses. The rejection of ID is its desire to inject supernaturalism into science. Supernaturalism is incompatible with science (as it is with medicine or law)...if you fail to reject "the impossible", you have no reason not to do like Dirk Gently and spend a three weeks in the Bahamas searching for a dog that was lost in England. Guettarda (talk) 20:43, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

In no wise is supernaturalism a necessary consequence of creationism. In no wise is creationism a necessary consequence of intelligent design. It does not contribute to the discussion to make category mistakes. Aminorex (talk) 01:49, 1 April 2008 (UTC)

Complete agreement with Guettarda Angry Christian (talk) 21:06, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

Agree on the 1st ("blames")

Agree on the 2nd (short list of ills), except that the two retained should be the two most prominent in the film. I'm pretty sure one of them is racism, and I'm pretty sure Planned Parenthood is not one of them.

Strongly disagree with 3rd; "evidence... does not exist" overstates the case to the point of inaccuracy. Even anecdotes are evidence, they just aren't necessarily persuasive evidence.

Disagree on the 4th. The problem with ID in the scientific community is not that it is mistaken for creationism, but that it is arguably untestable, due to its failure to make falsifiable hypotheses. (Of course, theories of the abiotic origins of life have the same problem.)

Disagree on the final comment, too. ID is not inconsistent with evolutionary biology. Also, "scientific consensus" is code language for "we are not sure enough to permit debate" (thanks, Dalewhite, for that great link!).

Also, "supernaturalism" as you call it is incompatible with neither medicine nor law. Have you never been sworn in to testify in a court case, with your hand on a Bible? In fact, George Washington's opinion was that atheism and agnosticism are incompatible with our judicial system. He wrote, "Of all the dispositions and habits, which lead to political prosperity, Religion and Morality are indispensable supports.... Where is the security for property, for reputation, for life, if the sense of religious obligation desert the oaths, which are the instruments of investigation in Courts of Justice?" NCdave (talk) 22:31, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

NCdave, once again you demonstrate you are wholly unfamiliar with the subject matter. The fact that ID "theory" cannot be tested does not make it secular. We have a court ruling and every science organization in North America saying ID is creationism/pseudoscience I am sick of your disruptions and ignorance on the subject of ID, Kitzmiller, etc. Sick of it. Angry Christian (talk) 22:43, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

ID advocates claim that it can be tested, so I cannot take your claims to the contrary as a given, without evidence or argument to support them. Your sickness is of no interest or concern to Wikipedia.Aminorex (talk) 01:49, 1 April 2008 (UTC)

"Have you never been sworn in to testify in a court case, with your hand on a Bible?" Nope. I think the only time I have set food inside a court house was in Dayton, Tennessee, to visit the Skopes trial museum.

But you miss the point. Swearing on the Bible does not invoke supernaturalism - not as long as you accept the fact that people can lie all they want under oath (and not be struck dead). The idea of supernaturalism in courts of law would be to allow "demonic possession" as an acceptable defense. Courts don't generally accept as a defense "since you didn't see him pull the trigger, you need to allow the possibility that it was just coincidence, and some force we can't explain (but we'll call it God in private) is actually a more reasonable explanation since you weren't there and you can't prove it!" Guettarda (talk) 23:43, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

Guettarda, NCdave suceeded in introducing complete nonsense and side tracking your proposal. I think it's important that we do not lose sight of our objective to improve the article. What you have suggested makes it better. This is the kind of disruption that leads to good editors leaving an article and the article never matures. We need to move forward and ignore nonsense and disruptions. Angry Christian (talk) 02:26, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

AC, will you please discuss the article, instead of attacking the editors? NCdave (talk) 02:43, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

"Blames"..."unfairly blames" is probably much more accurate (although, of course, trickier when it comes to sourcing). Guettarda (talk) 18:00, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

NCdave, again, I would encourage you to learn about Wikipedia policies. And note making an observation about behaviour here on the talk page, even characterizing nonsense as nonsense is not making a personal attack. It's making an observation. A personal attack would be something like FUCK YOU which is not permitted. Angry Christian (talk) 18:05, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

This article should be about the film, not about Intelligent Design

Half of your references have nothing to do with the film. Pretty much all of your controversy has nothing to do with the film. You are arguing about Intelligent Design, not about the film. If you stuck to the subject of this article, you would have a fairly short, simple, non-controversial article. The ID article is naturally contoversial, you don't have to duplicate all of its arguments here. Go look at (e.g.) JFK (movie). It's about the movie with very little mention of the assassination and conspiracy theories. There are separate articles about those topics. The article about the JFK film sticks mostly to its subject: the film, not the assassination. Somebody earlier commented that you had to present the background. Well, you have more background than you have film. If the Automobile article had as much background, it would include long sections about the horse and buggy, or Roman chariots. If you want to put an end to your disputes, then try mediation or an RFC with the simple question: Should this article be about the film, or about Intelligent Design? Or perhaps, How much of this article should be background? Of course, if you enjoy arguing and you're not really interested in writing an encyclopedia article, then ignore my suggestion. Sbowers3 (talk) 13:39, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

From the Contents list:

1 Claims presented in the film - about the film.

2 People presented in the film - about the film, plus further information about claims made in the film.

3 Claims that film producers misled interviewees - about the film.

4 Reviews - of the film.

5 Promotion - of the film.

6 Screenings - of the film.

7 See also - about ID, but that's the background for the film.

8 References - lots about ID and about the film, but we can't really dispense with the references (WP:V).

9 External links - all three are about the film.

General background information about ID without referencing the film is pretty much confined to the second sentence in paragraph 2 of the lead, 2 sentences in paragraph 3 of the lead, and pretty much all of paragraph 2 of "Claims presented in the film". Furthermore, "JFK" has a section on "Historical inaccuracies" which is apparently intended to play a similar role to the ID material presented here. --Robert Stevens (talk) 14:13, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

The JFK movie was not intended to be factual or a documentary, but to present an alternative history as entertainment (and to make money). This film is a polemic disguised as a documentary. They are even offering to pay people to go to the movie, and suggesting that schools and parents force children to go to the movie. Do you see them doing that at the Harry Potter movies? The Shrek movies?

Obviously, this movie is a completely different kettle of fish. And so, you should not expect its article to be similar to the articles for other movies.

When I last checked a few weeks ago, not counting the footnotes, the article was about 90% about the movie and 10% about ID. Since then we have added more material on reviews about the movie and interviews with the producers of the movie about the content of the movie and a bit of controversy about the movie. Of course, the movie is about ID, as we know now from numerous sources (just do some reading). The movie does a singularly bad job of describing ID. In all our ID articles on WP, we do give background information about what ID is; just a sentence or two. If you want more, you have to go to intelligent design.

We do provide sources in the footnotes for this sentence or two as well. We do this because people who are creationists challenge us repeatedly to include these footnotes and sources otherwise. It has happened over and over, so that is what we do. If you challenge us, we provide sources. That is the name of the game here on controversial articles. If you do not like it, go to Conservapedia.--Filll (talk) 14:39, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

• It's my feeling that the article is too long, but that is the price we pay for having volunteers edit an article on a controversial topic while attempting to be inclusive. In a year or two, when secondary and tertiary sources have weighed in on the film, we can think about trimming the article. Blast Ulna (talk) 14:41, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

I would agree with this. People are too excited about this upcoming film at the moment, and we are getting new content too frequently to be able to make this a really first rate article, tightly argued and well worded. We do the best we can. Later, when the turmoil has died down, someone can clean up the article a bit.--Filll (talk) 15:35, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

The film has not been released. When it is we'll obviously have much more to use but until then our reliable sources are limited. Come on people this is not rocket science. Also, keep in mind the details that have been published are not that helpful ("it made me cry" or "it's the dumbest thing I've ever seen"). And also note virtually everyone who has seen the movie describes it as an intelligent design movie. Please use some common sense Angry Christian (talk) 16:26, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

yet another example of editors who are clueless about this movie or clueless about what constitutes POV

The adjetive "controversial" was just removed by a misguided editor who claimed using "controversial was POV. Would you POV pushers get a clue. In their own press release the producers of Explelled call their movie "a controversial new satirical documentary" I for one am getting fed up with the complaints about the article being POV by people who seem to be ignorant about any of the subject matter. This must cease. Angry Christian (talk) 16:44, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

A suggestion - the article uses quotation marks quite a bit - often to imply disagreement with the film or with critic's of the film's position. That really should be avoided as it does suggest a POV - to the casual reader it comes off as snarky. Quotes should only be used when quoting material directly. Note, the last is not WP policy but my opinion garnered from editing several 'contraversial' articles. Note the implication the quotes make? Implies that I, as the author, don't really believe the article referenced were contraversial. Good luck, you guys have a difficult job here, lots of passion on both sides.--Lepeu1999 (talk) 16:57, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

So are you saying the quotation marks were POV or describing the movie as controversial was POV? The reason I ask is that you removed the word controversial and not just quotation marks. Angry Christian (talk) 17:27, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

You're under the mistaken impression that I removed the word 'controversial'. That wasn't me. The length of the talk page alone supports the fact that the movie's controversial.--Lepeu1999 (talk) 18:41, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

My mistake and apologies, Lepeu1999 Angry Christian (talk) 19:14, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

My edit removed the quote around the word Persecution in the opening paragraph. The quotes implied the author of the article didn't believe the dissenting scientists were really persecuted which does push a POV. The statement without the quotes merely says the movie claims dissenting scientists were persecuted. Adding quotes to the word implies an opinion on the part of the author. --Lepeu1999 (talk) 18:45, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

And as far as your suggestion goes, that is a good idea. For example we should define what "Big Science" is according to Ben and company. Angry Christian (talk) 17:28, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

Excellent idea.--Lepeu1999 (talk) 18:41, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

Quotes belong around "Big Science," because its a slang term from the movie. Persecution doesn't, because its not slang and putting wuotes arround it implies that the "Persecution", doesn't happen. Saksjn (talk) 23:52, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

Am I one of the editors that you consider "clueless"; or are we getting along better now? Saksjn (talk) 23:52, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

Ridiculous revert

The paranoia surrounding this article is so thick it's choking the life out of it. Explain this trigger-happy revert if you don't mind. [18] The reference does say everything I put there. It does not verify this claim, "administration considered that it violated university policy forbidding professors from creating the impression that their personal views represent Baylor as an institution". No such policy is described or alluded to in the article. Thank you very much. Professor marginalia (talk) 17:02, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

There seems to be some paranoia here alright...grab a mirror and take a look. I'm not an editor at this article. I was reviewing Recent Changes and I saw that you had significantly altered text, but your Edit Summary read " tweak fixes to ref". This is so misleading that it borders on blatant dishonesty and could appear to be vandalism. Please be more careful in future to avoid further reverts of this type. Doc Tropics 17:08, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

I'm not about to "own" your error here. If you've actually consulted the reference, which I don't see evidence of yet, you'd have to acknowledge that my edit summary was perfectly legit, and while you rush this revert in order to make some weird complaint over an edit summary, you have also restored inaccurate content to the article. I'm restoring it to rights. Professor marginalia (talk) 17:15, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

I thought DocTropic's edit was actually more informative and accurate. Looking at the sources given at the Robert Marks article migh help since this is covered in detail there. Angry Christian (talk) 17:22, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

I did indeed look deeper "professor"....that ref you're working with isn't even marginally acceptable at Wikipedia...it requires a paid subscription in order to be viewed, a payment of US$40. I am forced to remove the useless thing and replace it with a "fact" tag. Doc Tropics 17:25, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

The description of the Baylor web site is wholly inadequate and incomplete in my opinion. As a reader I am totally confused as to what the article is saying. I think we should not copy and paste but use what has been written here --> Evolutionar Informatics Lad web site controversy as a guide Angry Christian (talk) 17:32, 27 March 2008 (UTC) No sense in wasting energy re-inventing the wheel. Angry Christian (talk) 17:33, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

(ec)::::Look. There is a reference on that section. I didn't choose it. Some other editor did-it's been there a long, long time. I view the ref, it does not verify the claim which Angry Christian finds "more informative and accurate". It does verify that the university took the page down following complaints. And the university then required changes be made to put it back. Whether or not there existed some prior policy justifying the action is not in the reference. So let's not treat references like putty that conveniently say whatever we feel like they should say. The content claims attributed to a reference have to actually be included in the reference. I have to say - this argument that it isn't even "marginally acceptable" at wikipedia is one of the most bizarre I've heard here yet, especially given how much self-published sourcing are currently used here. While there is a guideline somewhere against linking to subscription content, there is no policy against using it as a source. Again--the linking wasn't me. All I did was repair the linking after I damaged it in my edit. The battles in here just get weirder and weirder. Professor marginalia (talk) 17:36, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

Angry Christian-the article section you link to above also makes the claim about some "policy", but it is attributed to the same source we're weirdly battling over now here. I'm telling you the source doesn't say anything about a policy. Professor marginalia (talk) 17:42, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

I'll try and look into it deeper this evening, unless someone else has time to do so today. This is a fascinating subject that warrants good cites and sources. Angry Christian (talk) 17:45, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

(after 3x Edit Conflicts) It seems likely that I have misinterpreted or misremembered policy regarding sub-only refs, therefore I've replaced the ref. However, having read through this para several times, I too find it very confusing and unclear. It would help significantly to provide further details about both the grant and the website, and a ref that average readers can make use of would be a nice touch too. Doc Tropics 17:46, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

This link seems to provide more detail, no? http://www.baylor.edu/Lariat/news.php?action=story&story=46756 Angry Christian (talk) 18:05, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

And http://www.bpnews.net/BPnews.asp?ID=26372 http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1890231/posts Angry Christian (talk) 18:08, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

Regarding Tropics's comment above, just because a the professor's link requires a paid subscription to be viewed doesn't make it unacceptable. Even books (that have to be bought or borrowed) are often used as references on Wikipedia. Just because the rest of us don't see something doesn't necessarily mean it's unacceptable. JBFrenchhorn (talk) 19:34, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

Yes, I agree it's confusing. Some basics are left out, including the point that in the film Marks will (I presume) allege that a) Baylor forced a return of the grant money because it related to ID and b) Baylor pulled down Marks' EIL content because it related to ID. The Marks' section hovers apart from the article now like a non sequitur. Since the film is a documentary about a supposed lack of academic freedom when it comes to ID, then the article here needs say what role Marks and the website flap have in this film. Professor marginalia (talk) 23:19, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

Kitzmiller v Dover primer

Several editors have expressed a lack of knowledge about Kitzmiller. You can watch the entire Nova special Judgement Day:Intelligent Design on trial here. It's even broken into smaller "chapters" to make online viewing easier. It's a pretty good place to start. Angry Christian (talk) 17:40, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for the interesting link, AC. NCdave (talk) 19:04, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

You're quite welcome. There are also interviews and other material not in the film on the Nova site. A treasure trove of links to other articles and official documents (briefs, testimony, ruling etc) awaits anyone interested in the subject at the Kitzmiller v Dover article. The thing that fascinates me about Kitzmiller is the fact that some of the best minds from both sides of the argument gave testimony which was refereed by a federal judge. This beats the heck out of these public kangaroo hearings or staged "debates" Angry Christian (talk) 19:23, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

Yes, thank God we scientists have federal judges to settle our disputes for us. Consensus science strikes again!. Dolewhite (talk) 20:04, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

What a great link, Dolewhite! That article is what should be required reading in the Dover, PA schools.  ;-) NCdave (talk) 21:24, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

I'm not aware of god filing a brief in that trial so I don't see how thanking him enters into the discussion. I thought I had read all the briefs submitted to the court but perhaps I overlooked that one. Jones did not mention any argument made by god in his ruling so I suspect whatever role god played in Kitzmiller was insignificant. Angry Christian (talk) 20:09, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

Actually, AC, the DI did not participate in the Kitzmiller case at all. The Dover folks brought a knife to a gunfight. NCdave (talk) 21:24, 27 March 2008 (UTC) (strikeout added 02:21, 28 March 2008 (UTC) by NCdave)

NCdave, actually they did. Please see the numerous amicus briefs the Discovery Institute filed in the kitzmiller V Dover trial here. A bit of trivia - You'll note the Discovery Institute specifcially asked Judge Jones to rule whether or not ID is science. You seem like a bright guy, I suspect you'll enjoy being familair with the subject matter. It will enhance your ability to contribute to the article and probably earn the respect of your fellow editors. I would encourage you to learn about this important court case, especilly if you are wanting us to listen to your opinions on the matter. And more accurately the Dover folks brought religion to a public science class. Angry Christian (talk) 22:17, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

You can also read transcripts of all of the testimony here You mentioned you did not know who Michale Behe is. His transcript is there as well. Angry Christian (talk) 22:25, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

I stand corrected, AC, and I thank you for the information and the links. I was relying on Barbara Forrest's statement that, "DI did not want this case, because the Dover board, urged on by TMLC, had explicitly crafted its policy to promote 'intelligent design.'" She was talking about the withdrawal of several DI-provided expert witnesses from participation in the case. However, apparently the DI people bailed out after they'd already filed (and then revised and refiled) their amicus brief. So the DI had some level of involvement in the case, though perhaps not much in the actual trial. My bad. NCdave (talk) 02:21, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

No worries, NCdave. Did you read the parts where the TMLC and the DI tried to get Barbara Forrest disqualified as an expert witness? It's pretty hilarious. Angry Christian (talk) 15:15, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

No, but being on the board of a secular humanist association, IMO, gives the appearance of bias on her part. NCdave (talk) 14:09, 31 March 2008 (UTC)

So are we likewise allowed to eliminate everybody who is a member of any Christian organisation on the grounds of "appearance of bias"? This is rank hypocrisy! Hrafn^Talk_Stalk 14:51, 31 March 2008 (UTC)

That's an apples-to-oranges comparison. Being a Christian does not make one automatically either supportive of or hostile to ID (or this movie). That is not a primary focus of Christianity. However, being on the board of a secular humanist association does imply hostility to ID, because promoting atheism is what secular humanist associations are all about. ID has nothing to say about Biblical creationism, but it does say that atheism is erroneous. NCdave (talk) 16:26, 2 April 2008 (UTC)

All Christian are theists. ID is a theistic position. Therefore Christians are predisposed to be more sympathetic to ID than atheists, Buddhists, Taoists, Pantheists, etc. Therefore Christians are biased. Hrafn^Talk_Stalk 17:07, 2 April 2008 (UTC)

Hearing no objections, may I assume that we're agreed on the six inaccuracies in the current sentence, and my proposed replacement, here? Or does someone have a better idea? NCdave (talk) 14:09, 31 March 2008 (UTC)

No, you may assume that we are sick of citing WP:IDIDNTHEARTHAT at you over them. Hrafn^Talk_Stalk 14:51, 31 March 2008 (UTC)

Mention of cast needs editing

Under the section "People presented in the film", it should be mentioned that part of people interview were mislead the first time their name is mentioned. The way the current section is written:

"It also includes interviews with scientists who advocate the teaching of evolution and are opposed to the intrusion of intelligent design, creationism and other religious doctrines in science classes, such as biologists PZ Myers and Richard Dawkins, philosopher of science Michael Ruse, historian of science Michael Shermer and anthropologist Eugenie Scott."

Implies that all of the people listed wanted their names associated with this movie. There is a criticism section, but it's not enough. This isn't a factual criticism about the movie, it's a direct complaint about it's production and the way the movie tricked people into being interviewed for it. Otherwise it appears to be an endorsement.--165.91.172.120 (talk) 19:12, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

I hear what you're saying. One idea is to give each person their own sub-header like we've done for the IDists and go into specific detail there. Angry Christian (talk) 19:26, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

Sounds reasonable - it is a bit misleading the way it's currently phrased since it doesn't reflect the complaint that they felt that they were deceived. Maybe just a couple words to that effect and a (see [link to|section below])? Guettarda (talk) 19:47, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

We should say that they felt decieved, and also include the producers explanation. Saksjn (talk) 00:05, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

"Theistic" scientists?

MennoMan added the descriptor[19] "theistic" to Mathis' comment on scientists such as Collins. While Genie Scott's term "theistic evolution" has come to be accepted, it's far from perfect. "Theistic scientists" would be people who work on "theistic science". "Theist scientists" maybe (though that would come across as contrasting with deists), though even that is less than optimal. But "theistic scientists" is, IMO, misleading. Guettarda (talk) 21:03, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

Agreed. More to the point, the phrase is assigned to Walt Ruloff, and at least according to the source, he doesn't use that term "theistic" as a qualifier. It's misleading at best. I'm going to remove that. Dolewhite (talk) 21:37, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

Should we use a term like, Scientists that believe in theism, or something like that. It doesn't read well, but we can re-word it. Saksjn (talk) 23:58, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

Is it in the source? Did Walt qualify it as such? If not, then no, we should leave it be. Dolewhite (talk) 01:51, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

Maybe "religious scientists" or "Scientists who are religious" Shoemaker's Holiday (talk) 01:56, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

How about simply "theist scientists" -- which implies that the theism applies to the scientist (as a person) not the science that they study. Hrafn^Talk_Stalk 02:26, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

I'm with Hrafn. Saksjn (talk) 02:27, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

Whatever's closest to what Ruloff actually said. Guettarda (talk) 02:36, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

Not "religious scientists." That would suggest those who practice the religion Religious Science. JBFrenchhorn (talk) 19:04, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

Ugh! I'd never heard of them until you mentioned 'em. NCdave (talk) 16:09, 2 April 2008 (UTC)

Researchers of the Phenomenom?

Whats a reasearcher of the phenomenom? What the phenomenom? Life? The universe? The supernatural? Whatever the "phenomenom" is we need to re-word it, cause its confusing as heck! If we can agree on what it is, I'll change it. Saksjn (talk) 00:03, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

I removed it. It took me about an hour to find it because there are so many freaking foot-notes! Could we do something about that guys? Saksjn (talk) 01:39, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

A lot of the people who have spent a great deal of time researching the Intelligent design movement and who are widely considered experts on it are not, technically, scientists. - Barbara Forrest, for instance, is a professor of philosophy; Ronald Numbers is a historian of science [And also a professor of history of science and medicine], but both are usually considered experts on the subject. Depending on technicalities relating to the applied/pure science split, even Eugenie Scott, as an anthropologist, may or may not fall under the label "scientist", as anthropology is one of those nifty mixes of biology, history, and sociology [no disrespect intended to the field, obviously, and the biology side Eugenie Scott's training makes her eminently well-placed to talk about the most controversial parts of evolutionary theory - the evolution of man. I only mention her as "science" and "the arts" are two sides of a continuum, so it's hard to know where the cutoff for the use of the term "scientist" falls exactly]. Shoemaker's Holiday (talk) 02:03, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

I would add philosopher Robert T. Pennock to that list. Hrafn^Talk_Stalk 02:28, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

Absolutely Pennock. Probably Sober as well. "Historians and philosophers"? Guettarda (talk) 02:31, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

The main point is that the neutral parties who have thoroughly researched the movement and become experts on it have almost universally decided that it is creationism, or very much like it, and is not science. Shoemaker's Holiday (talk) 02:38, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

So what's the phenomenom? That didn't really answer the question. Saksjn (talk) 02:26, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

Presumably the cultural phenomenon which is the ID movement. Guettarda (talk) 02:31, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

It currently says:

Although the Discovery Institute which is the hub of the intelligent design movement, claims that it is a serious scientific research approach, and not creationism,[5][6] it is generally considered such by scientists or historians of the intelligent design movement.

I don't think the phrase "historians of the intelligent design movement" should be used. That might suggest that they are historians within the ID movement. JBFrenchhorn (talk) 02:29, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

"Historians of [X]" are historians which study [X]. Guettarda (talk) 02:33, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

Let's just stick with scientists. If the writers (us) are confused... Imagine how confusing this is to a reader. Saksjn (talk) 02:32, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

The top authorities on ID are the historians and philosophers. And they have played a leading role in the demarcation question (as Ruse did in the Edwards case). Guettarda (talk) 02:35, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

Aye, exactly. We ought to mention them, as they're also neutral parties, not part of "Big Science", etc. Hence they are well-placed to judge without the supposed fear for their careers that the film claims as a reason scientists don't speak out. Shoemaker's Holiday (talk) 02:40, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

I'm still not sure what the phenomenom is. Saksjn (talk) 02:44, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

Just an ill-chosen synonym for "the intelligent design movement". Shoemaker's Holiday (talk) 02:45, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

Oh...Kinda a strange synonym. Thanks for clarifying that. Saksjn (talk) 02:47, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

It might be a British thing. Or an American one. I've moved between the two enough to pick up both country's ways of using words, and now I can confuse people wherever I am. Not to mention reading all those Victorian novels. God, it's a wonder I can talk to anyone =) Shoemaker's Holiday (talk) 03:06, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

Shoemaker, you're cherry picking the scientific view by claiming a handful of non-scientists or science historians are the significant voice of the scientific community who recognizes intelligent design as creationism and/or pseudoscience. There is not one single science organization that believes ID is anything scientific. Here is an imcomplete list you might want to recognize - [20]]. I think we have enough reliable sources and evidence to conclude id is considered creationism, pseudoscience by every science society that has weighed in on the subject. Barbara Forrest is an exception id researcher. She is a single, tiny voice amongst a whole lot of people accross every discipline in science. This is not a smear it is an observation. The evidence is conclusive. So let's see if we can write something that jives with reality, shall we? Angry Christian (talk) 03:06, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

What I'm saying is this [intelligent design] is generally considered [to be creationism] by scientists or historians of the intelligent design movement. Is a weasle sentence. Angry Christian (talk) 03:10, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

That depends. I would consider the Institute for Creation Research to be a scientific organization. If you define scientific according to what those scientists who believe in evolution consider to be science, then of course your statement is correct. But if you include all scientists including the late Henry M. Morris, your statement is not correct. JBFrenchhorn (talk) 03:20, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

I recommend that you read Richard Feynman's classic essay "Cargo Cult Science." The Institute for Creation Research may have built something that looks like a runway and a control tower, but the planes ain't gonna land. Raymond Arritt (talk) 03:42, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

I am fully aware of that list. However:

• ID is "creationism in a cheap suit" [Dawkins' preferred quote, I believe], it is "creationism repackaged", it is "Creationism's Trojan Horse", it "cannot uncouple itself from its creationist, and therefore religious roots". But that doesn't mean that just saying it's creationism is meaningful to the general reader, or particularly important, and a few people don't make explicit comparisons, e.g. "creationism's idealogical cousin" is not an equality, it is pointing out the similarity. It also doesn't matter, because WE CAN'T PRESUME PEOPLE KNOW WHAT CREATIONISM IS IN THE FIRST PLACE.
• What is important is what I was very careful to make clear in my edits. The thing that was LEFT OUT from the previous versions. That ID [and creationism] are not science. We didn't even say that before my rewrite. Do you have to attack me over your dogmatic insistance on a pure equality while being so blind that you can't even see what's important, that it's NOT SCIENCE, the thing that ACTUALLY RELATES TO THE MOVIE UNDER DISCUSSION? The movie is "Expelled: No intelligence Allowed", Not "Creationism: Intelligent Design Isn't This." The ID=Creationism point is barely even relevant, and yet you are lecturing me, the person who actually bothered to fix that paragraph to deal with and refute the core claim made in the movie itself - WHICH IT DIDN'T BEFORE MY EDITS - by casting me in the role of a quote-mining creationist.

Also, it's very hard to write a sentence that uses the strongest possible wording while still flowing and making the appropriate comparison with the Discovery Institute's views while suffering from the flu, and wading through 178,963 references that break up the sentences into tiny bite-sized chunks hidden amongst them. Shoemaker's Holiday (talk) 04:05, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

Not to worry, I just added some details. I think it is important for the reader to know that it's not just a few scientists and historians who recognize ID as creationism,pseudoscience. We should not hide the fact that the conspiracy against ID runs deep in the scientific community! Angry Christian (talk) 14:34, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

Antagonists from "both" sides are finding their way here and reacting to every comment made like nutty conspiracy theorists, which doesn't allow for much effective discussion about even simple problems. ID is creationism in an academic sense, but not in the popular use of the term. I found the same messiness with creationism in the Creation science where the term "creationism" was used in the article more only as an accident when CS specifically was being described. Here this conflation is on purpose because opponents of ID such as Myers are engaging in PR "push-back" against DI's PR strategy to cast ID as non-religious. These are the "backstory" machinations going on--which I think would be great to have described in an article someplace at WP, if it isn't already. But specifically in terms of this article, we need to be more conscious of the fact that the academic definition of creationism is not familiar to every reader. Sources such as Numbers or the NCSE write that in the 70s the term creationism was essentially "co-opted" by creation science, and that continues to be many people's understanding of the term. And creation science is not so very much like ID. In the academic definition of creationism, both CS and ID are forms of creationism. But not all creationism is ID, not all creationism is CS. We need to somehow write this article in such a way that the reader gets it. As it is now, the article is so pushy with the creationism association that it is misleading the reader to think the fight is not whether ID is science or ID is religious, but whether ID is creationism. The former, science/religion, is the fundamental issue to the dispute. Whether ID is creationism is important to understand the background and historical/philosophical context of the movement.Professor marginalia (talk) 14:43, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

I think it is slightly more complicated than this. While I agree that CS & ID are two fairly distinct movements, there is at least some overlap. While the more prominent Flood geology arm of CS (ICR, CRS, etc) remained aloof from ID, there was a reasonable degree of acceptance from the Creation biology arm, with the likes of Dean H. Kenyon joining forces with ID. Hrafn^Talk_Stalk 15:52, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

Yes, complicated it is. There is some overlap. But take Morris (CS) and Behe (ID)--both believe science can offer conclusions about divine creation. The similarities end about there, more or less. Except both shared in this view that their work was attacked due to a kind of pro-Darwinian persecution, in schools as well as the sciences. Professor marginalia (talk) 17:09, 28 March 2008 (UTC) (Left out who I meant with "they both")-rev Professor marginalia (talk) 17:12, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

Not a bad idea, I think showing the readers how the creationists changed the word "creationism" to "intelligent design" as a way to side step Edwards v. Aguillard and therefore side step the constitution would help them understand the modern use of these terms. Can you work on that? 14:54, 28 March 2008 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Angry Christian (talk • contribs)

Maybe we should show where the creationists used the term creationism and then changed it to creation science and then later changed that to intelligent design is a brilliant idea, Shoemaker. Angry Christian (talk) 14:57, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

Here is more on how the creationists changed terms to circumvent the constitution Pandas and "cdesign proponentsists". The links and info there could be melded into this article. When this history was pointed out at the Kitzmiller trial I laughed when they talked about the next incarnation of creationism would be called the "sudden emergence theory". Angry Christian (talk) 15:21, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

I am fully aware of such things - hell, I wrote - something that would reveal my real name which I'm not willing to do at this juncture - but which summarised the Kitzmiller trial, and got a very minor award. All I'm saying is that just saying ID=creationism isn't particularly relevant to the film; it's that ID isn't science that matters to the film's premise. If anything, the film only serves to link ID and creationism explicitly - see the New Scientist review which includes discussion of the film explicitly linking ID and God.

If we came at it from that angle, dealing with the controversy between the DI's long-standin g assertion that ID was not religious, and the film's explicit recognition that it IS, that's relevant, and we can spend as much time as we need to discuss it, using the New Scientist review and other reviews that discuss that as a starting point. But lengthy arguments over whether ID is or isn't creationism are definitional quibbling, and, while certainly appropriate on other pages, such as Intelligent design, aren't that relevant to a film that seems to accept the connection ANYWAY. Shoemaker's Holiday (talk) 16:09, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

Did you mean me or Shoemaker? That escapade was a key episode in Kitzmiller, but was not the origin of Intelligent Design. Modern day Intelligent Design originated before Edwards v Aguillard, and before Pandas and People. It originated in 1984 with Mystery of Life's Origins, with further push in 1986 with Evolution: A Theory in Crisis. It's incorrect to say ID developed initially as a gimmick to circumvent E vs A, though revisions made to Pandas and People were. Pandas and People morphed from a creation science textbook to an ID textbook after E v A. The story is very convoluted, so are we sure we want to jump down another lengthy history lesson simply to associate ID with creationism? I'd be happy enough just to lay out a few definitions so the reader knows what is meant by creationism as it is used by those involved in or evaluating this film. Professor marginalia (talk) 16:06, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

As I said, I think we're spending too much time dealing with things, like ID=creationism, that aren't relevant to the film. IT'd be better to discuss related but relevant issues, like the conflict between the film treating ID as an explicitly religious issue, while the DI insists it isn't religious. That's the relevant part of the ID/creationism issue as it regards this film, IMO, and going beyond that should be mnimised as it isn't relevant HERE. Shoemaker's Holiday (talk) 16:13, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

I agree except for the situation where spokespersons cited in this article are introducing it in their analyses. But unless the problems were improved significantly in recent edits, this article's "ID=creationism" equation is devotedly shoehorned in at every opportunity, to little purpose. It's distracting from key points about this film, also confusing, and tedious. Professor marginalia (talk) 16:53, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

Please re-read the entire article again. There is now not a single mention of "ID = creationism" that is not a direct quote. I think this is now a non-issue. Angry Christian (talk) 17:58, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

The "ID didn't start with OPAP!" argument just doesn't work. What is being asserted is that ID, defined as a field of study, originated in drafts of OPAP in response to the decision in the Edwards case. That timing is firmly established. Previous instances of use are descriptive and do not attempt to establish ID as a thing with some independent existence. This is pretty simple stuff. All that would be required to disprove it would be to come up with someone using ID in a previous work as a field of study and not as description of something else. No one has managed that so far. Until such time as it is managed, the assertion stands. --Wesley R. Elsberry (talk) 14:45, 30 March 2008 (UTC)

I just gave it a quick read, and agree it is so much much much much better. Good job! Professor marginalia (talk) 18:51, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

hey thanks for adding the ref(s) back that I mistakenly left out. I read somewhere that about 5% of wiki editors make 90% of the edits. When you try and move stuff around or create refs it's no wonder why :-) What an editorial hassle!  :-) We still have a ton of stuff that is misplaced. I think this is probably due to people editing prior to reading the entire article (and observation, not an attack). Eventually I think we'll spot all the orphaned sentences and find new homes for them. Angry Christian (talk) 18:56, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

Good Work Guys

Good work on working out our differences guys. I don't feel like I'm fighting on this page anymore. Thanks guys! Saksjn (talk) 02:46, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

Don't worry about it! These kind of topics tend to run into a lot of problems - The Discovery Institute regularly directs people to Wikipedia for instance, and then there's people like the Genesis vandal, who creates twenty or so accounts, waits four days so that software no longer counts him or her as a new editor - then edit wars to replace the Evolution article with the first two chapters of Genesis, jumping to a new account as fast as one can be blocked. Basically, there's probably not as much good will around as there really should be, but it tends to calm down after a little bit. Shoemaker's Holiday (talk) 03:00, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

Just to quickly clarify - it's not so much people coming here because the Discovery Institute sent them, it's getting large numbers of people with no knowledge of Wikipedia policy at the same time, being sent to one or two articles, and often being told by the person sending them that such-and-such is a problem, so they're all going to be trying to "fix" that, and, worse, as multiple people are getting sent at the same time, you can end up getting conflicts with established users who know about Wikipedia and so are trying to explain why sources are required, and what a good source is - you get the idea, Wikipedia stuff - but it only takes a couple people getting impatient with that and, since all these newbies are coming in groups, from places where they hold similar views, you end up with arguments between several newbies backing each other up, and experienced users a bit overwhelmed and possibly in the minority, trying to shout them down long enough to explain policy. Doesn't have to be Intelligent design, of course. All you need is newbies, enough controversy in a subject, and someone to send them to Wikipedia. Shoemaker's Holiday (talk) 03:24, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

The Guardian on Expelled

A step to the right:

Comic actor and game show host Ben Stein isn't at all happy, according to the trailers for his spurious-looking new documentary, Expelled: No Intelligence Allowed, in which he berates in overheated, lachrymose and rhetorically manipulative ways the American academic establishment's reluctance to recognise intelligent design, the pseudoscientific, inbred second-cousin of biblical creationism, for which Expelled offers straightforward propaganda. Stein isn't making a political crossover here, just a formal one - from TV comedy, where his talents really lie, to political apologias, where his talents simply die. His deeply rightwing political opinions haven't shifted one iota since he was a speechwriter for Richard Nixon. (If you can believe it, Stein was once suspected of being Deep Throat.)

Given that kind of apprenticeship, amid the lying, wiretapping and campaign-trail double-dealing, you'd expect a dishonest documentary, and apparently, we've got one. From the parts I've seen - the first 10 minutes online - it seems to deploy all the loaded-dice arguments, the overdog's deep-seated sense of victimhood and conventional rightwing hysteria. Stein lambasts academe for dismissing the work of "ID scientists", even when they are bankrolled by the rancid likes of the Discovery Institute, a think-tank inseminated yearly with funds from California savings and loan heir Howard Ahmanson Jr, who in 1985 told the Orange County Register: "My goal is the total integration of biblical law into our lives." Man, I can't wait for that, Ben, the priests running everything and we live like it's Ireland in the 1940s. Par-tay!

Pithy. Hrafn^Talk_Stalk 09:19, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

"My goal is the total integration of biblical law into our lives." If that was the case we would ALL be in jail. Thank God for forgivness. Saksjn (talk) 13:03, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

Ahmanson is only slightly delusional. It is so much in error it is hard to know what to say. Do we include that quote anyplace here? His biography? the Discovery Institute article?--Filll (talk) 13:09, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

Already in the DI article. Relata refero (talk) 21:06, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

"whose producers they allege presented themselves to the Discovery Institute as objective filmmakers and then portrayed the organization as religiously-motivated and anti-scientific"

This sounds like the Discovery Institute is not "religiously-motivated and anti-scientific" when clearly they are.

This should be changed to show the Discovery Institute is accurately described as "religiously-motivated and anti-scientific"

Just cause Stien says it doesn't mean its what the DI says. Saksjn (talk) 19:23, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

Duplicate information

There is a substantial amount of duplicated material which is making the article far more lengty than needed and will make adding material that much more challenging. I'm trying to identify duplicate points and remove those that have aloready been clearly made. Angry Christian (talk) 16:20, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

Ha ha ha! That's awesome. That was my original contention: the intro is too over-loaded with content that should be discussed below, or for which reference to other pages should suffice. Now the page has exploded, and you're returning to ideas I've been trying to sell all along. But since I'm a n00b, you couldn't get past your initial paranoia that I might be a (*gasp!*) propnent of ID. Oh, noes! Dolewhite (talk) 16:32, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

No, you wanted to remove content. You didn't say anything about duplication. Bluetd (talk) 17:05, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

I'd direct you to [Header #4] where I explicitly talk about "Clean[ing] up" the "whole set of opening paragraphs." If you didn't read enough to see "opening paragraphs" as operative, I really can't help you. Try an English course. Dolewhite (talk) 17:30, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

Dolewhite it's not uncommon for editors to ignore even good suggestions by those who are disruptive and/or show a repeated lack of knowledge about Wikipedia policies and also the subject matter. And as far as your "paranoia" claim, I don't think the editors here are worried about who "believes" in ID and who does not. Personally I could care less about whatever gets people through the night. Angry Christian (talk) 17:35, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

It's not uncommon for reactionaries to be unable to view the content of an argument when their emotions are running high and they're operating in war mode. I did nothing disruptive, nor did I violate any policies. Note that your initial unnecessary outrage stemmed from my work to make the article more like its present form. In its present form, it distinguishes that some people view ID as a scientific theory, but they are a minority, and the consensus is that it is not. That was my first edit, and that's the one you decided to initiate an edit-war over. My only objection was to the unqualified assertion that ID *is* a form of creationism, which ran contrary to other claims where that relationship was qualified by reference to the consensus that already existed in the article. It led to in inconsistent and internally constradictory article. You shot first and asked questions never, assuming that any effort to qualify the equivocation must be de facto defense of ID.

You really ought to consider taking a less antagonistic approach to this whole matter. I have only been civil, while you're throwing around accusations both here and on your talk page to demean or discredit others. Don't pretend to have a moral or intellectual highground when you make no effort to hold yourself to standards that would give you those virtues. Dolewhite (talk) 21:08, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

I'll keep that in mind, Dolewhite. Angry Christian (talk) 21:15, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

Some editors do seem to dismiss anything an editor that believes ID says. I've experienced it before. Angry Christian, didn't you join only this January. You've gained alot of experience in that time and know policy pretty well but, time wise your still pretty new yourself. Saksjn (talk) 19:29, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

ID is pseudoscientific nonsense, Saksjn, so it stands to reason any editor might point this out or mention it on the talk page here at some point. And I cannot speak for other editors here, but I suspect no one cares if an editor here believes in it. As I mentioned, I could care less if someone pretents ID is science or even if they think the world is flat or just a few thousand years old or if the moon landing was fake or if the moon is made of cheese. I'm here to improve the article and not figure out what other people believe. It picks my pocket not for folks to believe in ID. You mentioend you believe in ID and i can assure you I have not lost any sleep over that fact nor have I been afraid of you (paranoia as dolewhite mentioned). Any edits you've made that I might have objected to were not because you believe in ID but because your edits were suspect in view of Wikipedia policies. Angry Christian (talk) 19:40, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

Dolewhite, I obviously can't speak for anyone else, but I can speak for myself, and suggest that perhaps others might feel the same way. The reason *I* have discounted many of your suggestions is because you are FAR too quick to accuse others of "paranoia", being "bush-league propagandists", "coffee clatch of culture warriors", "intellectual dishonesty", etc. etc. etc. etc. I could spend an hour collecting all the examples of your hyperbole and personal snipes, almost all due to your inability to deal with the fact that people have different views than you do on how to edit the article, and/or have ignored some of your posts because you spoke in generalities but didn't suggest specific edits to consider to remedy the issues you raised. And then now you have the gall to say that you "have only been civil"... That, son, is why I give your opinions little weight at this point, and don't feel a great need to attempt to mollify you since you seem to prefer to feel outraged and "persecuted". Others may likely respond the same. Learn to play better with others, and others will start to treat you differently. Until then, get used to being brushed off. --Ichneumon (talk) 06:56, 29 March 2008 (UTC)

Saksjn, I don't care whether someone "believes ID" or not, as long as they make worthwhile contributions in a non-confrontational manner. Unfortunately, in my experience those who "believe ID" tend to come barging in with a chip on their shoulder and odd ideas about what constitutes useful, informative articles and/or valid material. They get dismissed for the latter, not for the mere fact of believing in ID. Then they tend to declare themselves "persecuted" for their beliefs instead of accepting the fact that their attitude and performance might have something to do with the reaction they got. Come to think of it, the folks being held up as martyrs in "Expelled" follow the same pattern -- experiencing negative consequences for their inability to meet normal standards, then waving the "persecuted for my beliefs!" flag. The declarations of victimhood really, really get old fast. --Ichneumon (talk) 06:56, 29 March 2008 (UTC)

sub-headers

As you can see I have been trying to organize the information using sub-headers. There are still some sentences in each sub-header that should be moved to a more logical home. If you see one that does not belong please help and move it to where it should (and don't just delete). Thanks Angry Christian (talk) 17:47, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

Promotion of Intelligent Design as an Alternative Scientific Theory to Evolution

I removed the blurb about what the DI says ID is because this section is dedicated to the claims made about ID by the producers of Expelled and not the DI. Angry Christian (talk) 20:11, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

The producers are working very closely with the DI though, so I'm restoring it. Odd nature (talk) 00:18, 29 March 2008 (UTC)

Has anyone here seen the movie yet?

I'm curious about how Dembski is included. Is his work with Marks the primary subject or do they also mention the Michael Polanyi Center debacle? Angry Christian (talk) 22:42, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

Sternberg section

Where in outside sorces does it say that Sternberg arranged that Meyer's paper appeared in his last issue? Also, as the article is now, it is not clear why Sternebrg should appear in the film. In what way was he expelled? needs a sentence and a reference. Northfox (talk) 23:31, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

Try these links

http://www.ncseweb.org/resources/news/2004/ZZ/608_bsw_repudiates_meyer_9_7_2004.asp

http://www.ncseweb.org/resources/news/2004/ZZ/331_id_paper_continues_to_attract__9_10_2004.asp

http://www.pandasthumb.org/pt-archives/000484.html

a quick word search shows that the word arranged does not appear in any of the three sources (NCSE is a quite non-neutral source anyway). Northfox (talk) 02:55, 29 March 2008 (UTC)

And we won't know all of the details about the so-called persecution until the movie is released or someone writes about it in detail. Angry Christian (talk) 00:08, 29 March 2008 (UTC)

It's been written about in detail, see the sources at Sternberg peer review controversy. Odd nature (talk) 00:16, 29 March 2008 (UTC)

Um, the OSC report you insist on mentioning is already covered in the Sternberg peer review controversy article. Furthermore, since the OSC report was a wholly partisan report by a conservative appointee (who was later caught up in ethics complaints), carried no weight of law or enforcement, and ultimately Sternberg was found to have no standing, your adding it here without any context the undue weight clause of WP:NPOV. Hence, I've removed it, if anyone wants to read it they can go to the controversy article where it's presented in a balanced manner in full context. Odd nature (talk) 00:09, 29 March 2008 (UTC)

as it stands now, the Sternberg section sound like he is in the film because that journal retracted a publication. Since the other parts of the article are detailed that is borders on obsession (ID is not science is mentioned countless times; Kitz ruling, etc), I wonder why what (allegedly) happened to Sternberg at Smithsonians is not covered at all. Quite unbalanced. Northfox (talk) 02:52, 29 March 2008 (UTC)

using Odd Nature's reasoning, the film critique could be a much shorter article on wikipedia. all the stuff about ID, Kitzmiller, etc can be read at their respective articles. So?? Why not cut the 'expelled' article down to the essentials?? Northfox (talk) 02:59, 29 March 2008 (UTC)

Northfox I suspect all the "persecuted" folks' sections will bloom once we have seen the movie. And I'll let Odd Nature speak for himself but I don't think he removed your edit for reasons of economy. Keep in min Sternberg was not ever a Smithsonian employee so he had no standing, he had and still has a unpaid/volunteer position there. Also, I'm guessing your new to this article but Stein is advoicating intelligent design as a scientific theory equal/superior to evolution and insists it should be taught along side evolution. That demands we discuss intelligent design. Because Stein advocates teaching intelligent design in public science class we cannot exclude Kitzmiller. Angry Christian (talk) 03:07, 29 March 2008 (UTC)

One more thing, we could significantly trim the article size by removing duplicate information and looking for opportunies to reword sentences to say more with much less. There is an awful lot of fluff and clumsy writing. Angry Christian (talk) 03:13, 29 March 2008 (UTC)

Conference call

This is amusing. Guettarda (talk) 02:11, 29 March 2008 (UTC)

This "chick" recorded it all here Angry Christian (talk) 02:26, 29 March 2008 (UTC)

Amazing. Did we include this? We should--Filll (talk) 14:51, 29 March 2008 (UTC)

Added both.--Filll (talk) 15:40, 29 March 2008 (UTC)

Here is a link to the press release that describes the press conference upcoming: [21]--Filll (talk) 15:48, 29 March 2008 (UTC)

In case this disappears, here is the material:

Ben Stein’s Controversial Film “Expelled” Tops the Blogosphere March 26, 2008

NewsLI.com

(Long Island, N.Y.) Forget Britney, Obama’s pastor and J-Lo’s twins: According to Technoranati’s BlogPulse which surveys the hottest topics and sites in the world of blogs, a site featuring Ben Stein’s controverisial new film Expelled is the #1 blog on the net.

The web traffic spiked when P.Z. Meyers, a biology professor at the University of Minnesota, Morris, attempted to sneak into a private, invitation-only screening of Ben Stein’s highly controversial upcoming movie, EXPELLED: No Intelligence Allowed (www.expelledthemovie.com). But Myers, who is an outspoken atheist and author of the science blog “Pharyngula” got caught and has used his blog to bitterly complain about not being allowed to see the film before its release.

Myers, who was interviewed in Expelled, has apparently been asking supporters to sneak into the private screenings which are being conducted by marketing company Motive Entertainment (www.motivemarketing.biz; which handled grassroots marketing for blockbusters The Passion of the Christ and Chronicles of Narnia) for various leaders as part of the grass roots marketing of the film.

When confronted at the screening by Myers’ friend Richard Dawkins, a prominent atheist who is himself featured in the film, as to why Myers was “expelled” from the screening, producer Mark Mathis replied that the producers were eager for Myers to screen the film but only after he had paid $10 to watch it with the rest of America after it releases on April 18th.

Mathis saw rich irony in Myers’ discontent with being “expelled” from Expelled: “It was amazing to see the reaction of Myers, Richard Dawkins and their friends when one of them wasn’t allowed to screen a film. Yet these men applaud the fact that throughout the nation, professors are fired from their jobs and permanently excluded from their profession for questioning Darwinism.”

“We can’t wait for all Americans, including our friend P.Z. Myers, to see the film when it opens on April 18th,” noted executive producer Logan Craft of Premise Media. “We’ll even throw in some free popcorn for P.Z. if he’ll tell us which theater he’ll be attending.”

”I hope PZ’s experience has helped him see the light. He’s distraught because he could not see a movie,” noted Mathis. “What if he wasn’t allowed to teach on a college campus or was denied tenure? Maybe he’ll think twice before he starts demanding more professors be blacklisted and expelled simply because they question the adequacy of Darwin’s theory.”

Ben Stein’s Expelled: No Intelligence Allowed opens nationwide on April 18th. Learn more at www.ExpelledTheMovie.com and www.GetExpelled.com.

Join Ben Stein and the Expelled producers LIVE on Friday, March 28 at 1:00 pm Pacific Time on a virtual press conference by dialing (number TBD).

Posted by News LI Editor · Edited by C. Cuizon - Filed Under Society

From [22]

It might also be visible at [23].--Filll (talk) 15:56, 29 March 2008 (UTC)

Or maybe not. it appears webcite is not working on this one.--Filll (talk) 16:00, 29 March 2008 (UTC)

If anyone knows how to capture that page and keep an image of it before it disappears, that might be useful. I am not quite sure how.--Filll (talk) 16:23, 29 March 2008 (UTC)

Given that the Expelled blog had no new posts between 18 February & 25 March, I think these claims are overblown. The topic might have been hot, but I doubt if very many bothered to track down this semi-moribund blog to read about it. Hrafn^Talk_Stalk 16:27, 29 March 2008 (UTC)

According to BlogPulse, the hottest blog post on the subject of "Expelled" is (or was when I checked it) Lassen County Primer on Ben Stein’s Expelled #6: Creating a Nazi Link with Nazi Propaganda, featuring one of a number of Stein-parody images that have been doing the rounds. Hrafn^Talk_Stalk 16:46, 29 March 2008 (UTC) Strike that, I just noticed that the 'search' facility orders chronologically, not by impact. Hrafn^Talk_Stalk 16:52, 29 March 2008 (UTC)

Did some further scratching around, and could find no mention of 'Expelled' (on any site) on Blogpulse's Top Blog Posts page. Hrafn^Talk_Stalk 17:00, 29 March 2008 (UTC)

Um if you read what they wrote carefully, they did not say their blog was the number 1 blog on the net. They were talking about PZ Myer's blog.--Filll (talk) 16:42, 29 March 2008 (UTC)

Actually on closer examination they don't mention what the site is, all they say is "a site featuring Ben Stein’s controverisial new film Expelled is the #1 blog on the net." They then, in the next paragraph, mention PZ Myers as the touchpaper that set all this off, and mention that he's a blogger, but they don't say that it is his blog they were talking about. Hrafn^Talk_Stalk 16:49, 29 March 2008 (UTC)

A little bit of investigation and thought will show that is exactly what they are talking about.--Filll (talk) 16:53, 29 March 2008 (UTC)

Evidence? Hrafn^Talk_Stalk 17:00, 29 March 2008 (UTC)

I am assuming. But maybe I can find some. Let's see. --Filll (talk) 17:02, 29 March 2008 (UTC)

I had an invite to the conferance (email). I wonder if they'll claim PZ was not invited. Looks like anyone who had signed up for their upodates was invited. I can copy and paste the whole thing here if anyone wants to see it. Angry Christian (talk) 22:17, 29 March 2008 (UTC)

This article at PZ's blog links to an Alexa graph that shows the Expelled blog hardly gets any traffic at all Angry Christian (talk) 02:07, 30 March 2008 (UTC)

But they still are more highly ranked than us. Hmm...--Filll (talk) 16:58, 30 March 2008 (UTC)

"But they still are more highly ranked than us. Hmm" What? Angry Christian (talk) 18:03, 30 March 2008 (UTC)

In most search engines I check, our article is ranked as number 3, behind 2 of the film company's websites for Expelled.-Filll (talk) 18:06, 30 March 2008 (UTC)

In simple terms Alexa has little to do with search engine relevance and everything to do with the amound of visitors who go to a site. Search engine relevance (ranking via a search) has nothing to do with the amount of visitors who frequent a website and everything to do with how the site is laid out and especially how many quality incoming linkes the site has and the quality of the content. A website called "exp[elled" will typically always show up first in any search,m assuming they have relevant content. Angry Christian (talk) 18:22, 30 March 2008 (UTC)

see also

Since Stein and company are championing the notion of having ID taught in public science class I added several links to various relevant court cases over the last 50 years or so. This evolution vs creationism, creation science, intelligent design is obviously not new. Angry Christian (talk) 02:56, 29 March 2008 (UTC)

Careful. We do not want a link farm.--Filll (talk) 14:37, 29 March 2008 (UTC)

Godwin's law reference

Surely this is not particularly encyclopedic in this case. It does not even match the parameters set forth in Godwin's law. This story about Darwinism or evolution being associated with Hitler and the Holocaust is old news. Before Hitler, they blamed the Kaiser and World War I on Darwinism and evolution.--Filll (talk) 14:36, 29 March 2008 (UTC)

Looks like they're blaming the wrong scientists. Guettarda (talk) 16:17, 29 March 2008 (UTC)

well, the entire article isn't exactly a showpiece of encyclopedicity. Some losers are in the process of making a movie, and the blogosphere commented on it. End of transmission.

Did you see the Richard Dawkins Rap btw? It's hilarious. It really has you wondering which "side" is responsible for a minute, and it is getting a lot of creationist appreciation in the comments section :) dab (𒁳) 17:10, 29 March 2008 (UTC)

Yes I saw. But did you see the Dembski fart video? Now that says it all about these jokers. What fools...--Filll (talk) 17:23, 29 March 2008 (UTC)

hm, I had to google for it. That definitely fits better to the level of humour the ID people would be capable of producing. dab (𒁳) 17:29, 29 March 2008 (UTC)

Reason Myers Expelled

Supposedly because he had placed bootlegged film footage [24] on his website:[25] --Filll (talk) 17:31, 29 March 2008 (UTC)

Isn't that directly contradictory to all previous explanations? Shoemaker's Holiday (talk) 18:48, 29 March 2008 (UTC)

Yes.--Filll (talk) 18:59, 29 March 2008 (UTC)

This is actually a pretty good compilation of the various contradictory reasons that have been given for PZ's expulsion. Guettarda (talk) 19:51, 29 March 2008 (UTC)

funny Angry Christian (talk) 16:09, 31 March 2008 (UTC)

Skeptics Guide

This week's interviewee is Genie Scott who drops all kinds of "bombshells" about the making of the film. She outlines a lot of "suggestive" evidence which points to deliberate public deception about the film. Things such as the films listed as produced by "Rampant" weren't listed in IMDB, that the domain name for the "Expelled:" version of the film was registered before the producers approached Scott and other evolution supporters for interviews, etc. [26] - I don't have the time now myself to work with it, but this is a good source for some interesting claims about the making of the film itself. Professor marginalia (talk) 22:21, 29 March 2008 (UTC)

Any idea if a transcript will be available? Angry Christian (talk) 02:16, 30 March 2008 (UTC)

The domain name issue is discussed here. There's also a link there to the Bad Idea blog that covered several reasons to believe that "Crossroads"/"Expelled" production operated on a less than completely honest basis. --Wesley R. Elsberry (talk) 14:30, 30 March 2008 (UTC)

kick back scheme

Looks like they have made some changes to their kick back scheme. Go here for more. Angry Christian (talk) 02:12, 30 March 2008 (UTC)

Robert J. Marks works for Baylor University, the title given to him by Baylor University is Distinguished Professor of Electrical and Computer Engineering (2003-present)

I realize his position sounds peacockish, but that is what his title is. I had put it in caps (as it is on the Baylor website) which indicates it is a title and not a description but it continues to be reverted. It has been reverted several times. I don't think hiding the title given to him where he works from the article shows good faith. The man's title is Distinguished Professor of Electrical and Computer Engineering and I don't think we should hide his title in favor of describing his work ("engineering professor").

We spell out what people's current titles are (except Shermer, he doesn't seem to have a single title) and we're hiding Marks. This is uncalled for. If you don't like Mark's title or think it sounds too peacockish please take it up with Baylor University and stop reverting accurate information. I spent quite a bit of time researching what these people currently do and making sure I had accurate information. If i need to put a ref/source after every sinlge word I add to the article I'll be happy to do that. Whoever keeps reverting this might want to look up the information themselves, like I did.

I will let it stand as is for a day in case anyone has a different idea or thinks I'm mistaken (or insane), and then I plan to add Robert Marks' title back to the article as it should be. Again, I admit I could be wrong. I am not familiar with any Wiki policies that state we must/should/can hide a person's title given to them by their employer if we don't like the way it sounds. Again, I am all ears for competing ideas and in light on new evidence I'll be more than happy to admit I'm wrong and hang it up. Angry Christian (talk) 02:51, 30 March 2008 (UTC)

I added his job title(s) again and added the other folks presented in the film. I removed Marks' fellowships for reasons of economy. If we add every fellowship he or dawkins or the others have we'll end up dwarfing the content. I left the DI fellowships for the other folks since those are highly relevant to the claims made in the subject matter/film. Angry Christian (talk) 17:47, 31 March 2008 (UTC)

I don't understand why his title matters - his or anyone else's. A simple description (with a lot fewer capital letters) strikes me as more encyclopaedic. Guettarda (talk) 18:30, 1 April 2008 (UTC)

Wow this is sad

Two morons getting stupider and stupider, talking to each other:[27] Preacher RC Sproul interviewing Stein about this movie. If I was to critique this, every second or two I would stop them and write 20 pages on another idiotic statement one or the other has made. My god these morons have no idea what they are talking about. --Filll (talk) 04:53, 30 March 2008 (UTC)

If I follow the logic of these two, I should be allowed to go to a store, and purchase a 3 dollar item and a 5 dollar item, and then demand that because of free speech, the price of my total bill is 2 dollars. And if the clerk disagrees, I should be allowed to call for the police to have the clerk put in prison for saying my bill is 8 dollars since she is violating my constitutional right to free speech.--Filll (talk) 05:11, 30 March 2008 (UTC)

Pat Robertson interview

[28] with Stein. Stein calls both the Germans and the Danes "master races". Stein says the problem with Darwnism is it does not explain how gravity keeps the planets where they are or the laws of thermodynamics. Stein claims no one has ever observed the evolution of a new species or has even seen fossil evidence of the evolution of a new species! What the heck??? He also claims many dozens of scientists have lost their jobs and grants and been humiliated for not believing in Darwinism. He claims that if you had a Ford Foundation grant and said you did not know how the planets stayed in their orbits or how light beams began, you would be fired. He says that Darwin did not mention astronomy or physics, so that any scientist who points that out should not be fired. It just goes on and on, one assinine comment after another.--Filll (talk) 05:25, 30 March 2008 (UTC)

Stein/AFA interviews

Here is a transcript of some interviews Stein did with the American Family Association. May be a useful source for settling arguments as to the movie's purpose etc. Hrafn^Talk_Stalk 07:13, 30 March 2008 (UTC)

Length of talkpage

The talkpage is now 360k, which is way too long. Would it be worthwhile putting it onto bot-autoarchive for a while until things cool down? Hrafn^Talk_Stalk 07:13, 30 March 2008 (UTC)

It used to be in that mode. Also, we need some tweaking to the archives because one is full.--Filll (talk) 10:57, 30 March 2008 (UTC)

The bot seems to have been doing something really strange -- archiving to both /Archive 1 (see history) and /Archive 2 (see history) at the same time. I have manually incremented the counter (up to 2), so hopefully it may start to function normally (and only archive to Archive 2), but have no idea what was causing this bizarre behaviour. We should also consider decreasing the archive-age down from 14d to 7d until things cool down. Hrafn^Talk_Stalk 13:15, 30 March 2008 (UTC)

I think 14d is already awfully short.

360k is not particularly large, unless you are using dial-up. It pops right up for me. As an experiment, for comparison, I just saved the MSNBC main page, and the result was 96 files totaling 676,560 bytes, and many of the files were incompressible picture files.

Oddly enough, when I did the same thing with this Talk page, it was about the same size - in fact, slightly larger. So I'm not sure how the displayed page sizes are calculated. Perhaps they take into account an expected level of compression. However, when I pkzip'd (compressed) both folders (the one for MSDN and the one for this Talk page), the compressed MSDN files totaled 318,009 bytes, and the compressed Talk page files (mostly one big file) totaled only 200,936 bytes.

So I don't see a problem with the size of this Talk page. It would have to be ~50% bigger to be as slow to load as the main MSDN page. NCdave (talk) 14:53, 31 March 2008 (UTC)

Rush Limbaugh review

I just heard the Rush Limbaugh review. Amazing. Rush says it is an extremely good and powerful film. Rush says that Darwinism does not allow anyone to believe in God. Rush states that our greatness as a nation comes because our country, and in particular Republicans, know creation produced a desire in men for freedom. Rush states that Barack Obama is not someone who knows this. That is, he manages to confuse the current US presidential race, creationism, evolution, atheism, intelligent design, the constitution of the United States, and freedom into a mess, and spew it all out in a pandering review in just a few seconds.--Filll (talk) 11:04, 30 March 2008 (UTC)

Thats the most well written example of soapboxing ive heard in a long time, thanks Fill. but it has now place on a wikipedia article Rubico (talk) 20:38, 30 March 2008 (UTC)

This isn't an article, this is a talk page. Shoemaker's Holiday (talk) 21:29, 30 March 2008 (UTC)

it also excellently drives home the point that by "creation" they mean "creation of America", and that "ID" has no application outside the borders of the US. This is a topic of US American sociology beginning to end, it has nothing to do with theology, theism, atheism, biology, reason, academia or "intelligence" but exclusively with the nervous state of US American society towards the later 2000s. dab (𒁳) 08:42, 31 March 2008 (UTC)

Limits

I am starting to wonder how many more interviews and reviews we can accommodate. Maybe just a list of a few more if there are too many? --Filll (talk) 13:42, 30 March 2008 (UTC)

I suggest we start culling the less noteworthy ones (the World Magazine one comes to mind -- it's a fairly minor/extremist rag). The ones we keep should be noteworthy for generating further controversy (e.g. The Orlando Sentinel one), being in a major national paper, or being written by somebody prominent (either prominent scientist, movie critic or political commentator). Hrafn^Talk_Stalk 13:59, 30 March 2008 (UTC)

I want to make sure we have plenty both positive and negative. And some of the more negative ones are longer, so to balance those we need some more positive reviews, even if less notable otherwise.--Filll (talk) 14:35, 30 March 2008 (UTC)

If they're longer then we simply need to summarise them more. The overall effect should be WP:DUE weight -- if every prominent source is saying bad things & only obscure ones are saying good, then the coverage should be weighted towards the bad. Hrafn^Talk_Stalk 14:45, 30 March 2008 (UTC)

I'm going to have to agree - we'd get a false dichotomy otherwise. Anyway, why not quote Rush Limbaugh or the other big-name conservative/evangelicals on the film instead of scouring for obscure and less notable newspapers? Shoemaker's Holiday (talk) 19:06, 30 March 2008 (UTC)

Every review by a marginally rational person is going to say the movie sucks and is nothing but propaganda, bad (mistaken) propaganda at that. The other review will be from the choir who will say it brought tears to their eyes. I think we should include only the most noteworthy reviews and try and keep some balance. Also can the FL action be rolled into it's own article or added to the Discovery Institute campaigns? We haven;t even added the rest of the people who appear in the film and this thing is going to be a huge article if we're nto careful. Angry Christian (talk) 02:58, 31 March 2008 (UTC)

World Magazine is most certainly not minor or extremist. It is a very well-respected national Christian newsmagazine, and far more notable than a local newspaper. NCdave (talk) 14:13, 31 March 2008 (UTC)

Its own mission statement declares otherwise: "...to report and analyze the news on a weekly schedule in an interesting, accurate, and arresting fashion, and to combine reporting with practical commentary on current events and issues from a perspective committed to the Bible as the inerrant Word of God". So they're inerrantists, i.e. fundies. Whatever they have to say would inevitably follow their declared agenda, and is therefore not very interesting. --Robert Stevens (talk) 14:26, 31 March 2008 (UTC)

It is a conservative Evangelical magazine. It's editor-in-chief, Marvin Olasky (who is also the review's author) is associated with Christian reconstructionism and Dominionism, which I think justifies "extremist". See [[Marvin Olasky#World magazine for more details. It's article describes it as "the magazine started small, initially requesting donations in every issue to stay afloat. It has grown steadily ever since, and its publishers express hope of someday reaching the circulation level of the nation's top secular newsweeklies." -- which would seem to indicate that it has yet to achieve "national" stature. Hrafn^Talk_Stalk 14:34, 31 March 2008 (UTC)

I just called World, and they said their paid circulation currently fluctuates between 123,000 and 125,000. That's twice what The New Republic has, and almost equal to National Review. But it is a tiny fraction of U.S. News & World Report's 2 million. NCdave (talk) 16:19, 2 April 2008 (UTC)

Regardless, WP:RS#Extremist sources applies. Hrafn^Talk_Stalk 17:11, 2 April 2008 (UTC)

What about RC Sproul? 700 Club? CBN? We have 9 reviews now (4 negative, 5 positive). Should we have 20 reviews? 50? At some point we get to a limit. Also we have a few interviews, but what if we have 5 times as many? 10? --Filll (talk) 14:22, 31 March 2008 (UTC)

I think prominence should be given to those who are experts on the medium (i.e. professional film critics) or content (i.e. scientists, philosophers, historians and sociologists of science). Outside those groups, I think they'd need national-level prominence to warrant any significant mention in the article. How many prominent experts (with expertise as defined above) do we currently have? Hrafn^Talk_Stalk 14:43, 31 March 2008 (UTC)

Just an FYI

As you can see the creationists attempt to link Darwin and Hitler via a propaganda film is not new. It will be interesting to see what the ADL has to say about Stein's film. Angry Christian (talk) 16:38, 31 March 2008 (UTC)

this topic should be discussed in context somewhere, at Creationism and Social Darwinism or similar. It cannot be the point of this article to rehash this. In fact, this entire movie appears to be just a rather lame footnote to the topic. I am sure we can give a more encyclopedic discussion if we're not trying to keep up with last minute developments in the blogosphere at the same time. dab (𒁳) 16:45, 31 March 2008 (UTC)

Order...ORDER I SAY!

That was a joke. Ha ha. But speaking of order...Once we've seen the movie or more know we might want to see if it would make sense to change the oder of some of the article to match the order that people or ideas are presented in the film. The order now seems to be random and I'm not suggesting that's good or bad. Anyhow, it might be something to consider if it looks like it would improve the flow of the article. Angry Christian (talk) 04:33, 1 April 2008 (UTC)

I agree, but not much we can do at the moment =) Shoemaker's Holiday (talk) 06:29, 1 April 2008 (UTC)

WIKIPEDIA Inconsistencies

The Wikipedia entry for this documentary is inconsistent with other Wikipedia documentaries entered into this webstie. I spent some time comparing this entry with three other equally controversial documentaries entered here. They are as follows

1. An Inconvenient Truth - Al Gore 2. Farenheit 911 - Michael Moore 3. Fitna - Geert Wilders

The following observations should be drawn from a review of the above referenced entries:

1. Neither Fitna, Moore, Gore, or any of their constituents/supporters referenced are ever stated to "claim" any of their premises. They either "present", "investegate, "focus", etc., but I did not see the action word "claim" used in any of the Wikipedia entries for these three documentaries. Bill Stein and his supporters/constituents however, are stated to "claim" their premises 16 times within this Wikipedia entry.

(When one is quoted as "claiming" something, it puts the burden of proof on the person making the statement in journalistic circles, and thats fine if you want to present it that way, but be consistent with this in regards to the other documentaries listed above)

2. There is a we/they theme in the writing of this entry. In the other three entries, the producers and supporters are not referenced as "they, their, them", etc. like in this entry.

3. This entry contains far more discussion on the topic of the movie than on the movie itself. This is another inconsistency from the other three entries listed above. In fact, this entry is about twice as long as any of the other three entries referenced. The result of discussing the topic far more than the movie itself.

The conclusion is this entry is far too editorialized and goes beyond what appears to be the established norm for entries about controversial documentaries within this site. I estimate three quarters of this entry should be cut and pasted to Creationism vs. Intelligent Design. Those that disagree with Mr. Stein have been given the upper hand on this entry. Should those that disagree with Gore, Moore, and Fitna also be given an upper hand in their entries? SargonXii (talk) 11:02, 1 April 2008 (UTC)

"An inconvenient truth" has large sections of "background" information comparable to that on this article. Furthermore, the two films are not comparable, because Gore's film is widely regarded by scientists as broadly accurate and informative: whereas this one seems to be entirely devoid of accurate content, and the antics of the film's producers and promoters merely makes things worse: the "controversy" is in a whole different league. Why did you choose that example for comparison, rather than (for instance) The Protocols of the Elders of Zion? That article contains only brief details of the book, and mostly discusses its reception and refutation.

And "the people that disgree", in this case, represent the views of the scientific community and the opinions of notable experts. Should they be "given the upper hand"? Yes, absolutely, as per WP:UNDUE. --Robert Stevens (talk) 11:32, 1 April 2008 (UTC)

Inconvenient Truth is discussed on this site in the context of the movie far more than its topic is. Expelled is not given the same presentation here so your suggestions are grossly inaccurate. There are many scientists who label An Inconvenient Truth a film devoid of accurate content. According to your standard, these scientists that question the validity of global warming should be the ones to be given the upper hand in presenting the entry on Wikipedia for An Inconvenient Truth. The voice of dissension should have a say of course, but should their viewpoint permeate and dominate the entry? In my opinion, the answer is no.

I chose the movies I chose because they were the only documentaries that came to mind. I have never heard of the movie you suggested but I will look into it, thanks.

The science community is divided over the reality, source, and rectification of "global warming". There is by no means a consensus even among scientists. The same science community is also divided over certain areas of evolutionary theory, particulary in regards to origins and change of species (macro). In some areas of evolutionary theory however, there is a consensus.

There are equally trained, equally intelligent, equally passioned scientists on both sides of the global warming and evolutionary theories. Each tends to write the other side off claiming alterior motives. The atheist wants to prove there is no intelligent designer, the deist wants to prove there is, and both use the scientific evidence available to support their causes. To suggest one is biased and one is not is like burying one's head in the sand and denying such a premise could exist. The same is taking shape for Global Warming it seems.

see The Burning Times for another example of an article on a "documentary" that completely flunks at its chosen topic. A documentary isn't an artistic work of fiction, it claims to have a grounding in fact. If it fails to have that in spite of the claim, the article will reflect that. dab (𒁳) 12:19, 1 April 2008 (UTC)

Fair enough assertion dab, I don't disagree with presenting both the positive and negative of a documentary film on a Wikipedia entry. This entry is dominated by negativity and none of us have even seen the movie. We are relying on the opinions of those that would find a way to be critical of the movie regardless of content and those that would find a way to promote the movie regardless of content. Until the movie comes out, do we really know anything other than what is stated by bias sources? SargonXii (talk) 10:28, 2 April 2008 (UTC)

How many times do the sources use the word "claim"? Perhaps we overuse this word, but the problem is that this article is not particularly well written because no editor has seen the film yet, and there are few professional reviews to choose from. In addition, most of what we know about the film revolves around the associated controversies. Things are changing rapidly, so the article is in a state of flux, and no one feels like cleaning up the writing because it will be changed in a few hours again anyway. So what is the point? Do you want to spend 50 hours cleaning up this article and then have all that effort discarded within a day or two? I have done it twice and I am not anxious to do so again. You are free to waste 50 or more hours of your own time if you want. Feel free. But I guarantee most of it will be wasted.

When I gauged this article a few weeks ago, about 90 percent directly related to the film, not counting footnotes. The rest was there for context and background. Since then, the background has been cut back and more material directly about the film has been added.

This article is written according to the principles of Wikipedia, including NPOV and NOR and RS etc. If you do not like that, there are many other wikis which follow other principles. You are welcome to go there.--Filll (talk) 13:00, 1 April 2008 (UTC)

Thank you Filll, basically you are telling me and anyone that disagrees with you, if we don't like it we can leave. The problem is this site is being relied upon by an unsuspecting public. You can rip to shreds anything you don't agree with here, and that is your right, but let the public know there is no intent or obligation to remain unbiased. When a source of information is presented from a biased source, and you know its biased, then you accept the information with a grain of salt. When a source of information is presented as if it were unbiased, then that is propaganda Filll.

SargonXii (talk) 10:28, 2 April 2008 (UTC)

We have rules here. You can either follow the rules, or try to force others to not follow the rules, and break the rules yourself. If you choose to try to force others to break the rules and break the rules yourself, then it is better that you leave. Is that so difficult to understand?--Filll (talk) 10:32, 2 April 2008 (UTC)

SargonXii You're welcome to help us improve the article Angry Christian (talk) 13:58, 1 April 2008 (UTC)

Thank you AC, I did suggest some changes below under a new topic heading, but it wasn't met with much support. I think I changed four words perhaps? How dare I. SargonXii (talk) 10:28, 2 April 2008 (UTC)

Honorific titles

Some people here have been insisting on using Marks honorific title in place of his job title/description. There's a difference between job descriptions/title and honorific titles I suggest people there learn. The reason I remove it is because the others that have honorific titles like Dawkins don't have them used at the article, giving Marks special treatment. If you're going to use honorific titles for one there you need to use them for all that have them in order to avoid favoring one side of the debate. Odd nature (talk) 18:31, 1 April 2008 (UTC)

I couldn't agree with you more, at least on some counts (especially we should avoid all honorific titles for all these folks). Would you mind looking at his full Vita at Baylor's website, especially under the heading "Employment" it appears to me that this is in fact his job title and not an honorary designation. [29] Or am I mistaken? Angry Christian (talk) 18:37, 1 April 2008 (UTC)

His job description is professor of engineering and director. Please see Guettarda's comment about this up above as well. Odd nature (talk) 18:55, 1 April 2008 (UTC)

(ec)I'm not sure whether any of these titles are really all that meaningful to the average reader, but for comparison, the article calls Dawkins "a British ethologist, evolutionary biologist and popular science writer", while it calls Marks "the Distinguished Professor of Electrical and Computer Engineering and Engineering Graduate Director at Baylor University". Dawkins actually holds an endowed chair. Marks is a "distinguished professor", which is probably a lesser distinction. As for "of Electrical and Computer Engineering", that's just the name of his department. Being graduate director is a relatively minor administrative position, a step below "associate chair". Of course, capitalising terms like "Assistant Professor" and "Staff Scientist" seem a bit silly as well. Guettarda (talk) 19:04, 1 April 2008 (UTC)

Ok, so this issue is not that someone cannot tell the difference between an honorific title and an employment title, nor is the issue someone has uded puffery to bolster one of the ID folks (for the record, I'd be the last guy to prop these nitwits up), the issue is both of you do not want Marks' job title in this article. Why not just come out and say that instead of insinuating I am up to no good or implying adding a title in an article is silly? I am also a reader that is exactly the kind of information I look for in an article. Why not just say "we don't like his job title and we'll revert you everytime you put it in the article" and be honest about it instead of suggesting I'm a IDiot? I'll just say I cannot begin to express how much I disagree with you both. But it's not worth my time to argue over it. Angry Christian (talk) 19:20, 1 April 2008 (UTC)

I don't think I've reverted the edit at all. But no, I don't think that formal job titles are useful - not for Marks, not for anyone else. Listing job titles does read like puffery. I'm not accusing you of being an IDist, I don't think' ' you're an IDist.

Listing Marks' full title is puffery. All job titles are puffery. Listing Marks' job title and not listing everyone else's is both puffery and inconsistent. The only real title that means anything is Dawkins' endowed chair. And that doesn't belong in the article either. Guettarda (talk) 23:53, 1 April 2008 (UTC)

It looks like everyone's title is listed, including Dawkins' endowed chair, so it seems like the inconsistency at the moment is in the omission of Marks' complete job title.--NapoliRoma (talk) 00:35, 2 April 2008 (UTC)

Funnier yet is if you look at Demsbki, Behe, PZ Meyers, heck pretty much any biography you see their here at Wikiland includes the job title. I suppose my biggest issue is I took the time to research the various Wiki policies on the subject, looked at various biographies here and took the time to try and figure out just what the hell Marks is at Baylor. No one who has said Marks job title should not be used has offered anything in the form of a policy. It's "silly" and "puffery" well fuck I didn't give him that title, take it up with Baylor for crying out loud. The fact the only objection or revert has to do with Marks is an obvious tip off. To make it even funnier I could care less about Robert Marks and his moronic "infomatics" shell game where he and Dembski dress up and play scientist on a baylor server. Baylor is pretty much a nutcase university anyhow. I mean the pre sident of Baylor thinks the world is 6,000 years old? How insane is that? Anyhow, I simply don't think that people will read Marks job title and conclude "darwinism" leads to nazism because that is exactly what this is about. Otherwise every single title would have been reverted years ago including PZ Myers bio, Dawkins bio, Kenneth Millers bio, Dembskis bio, Behes bio and on and on. Again, if I go to battle over an article it won't be Marks job title, it aint worth my time but this is obvious, wholesale bullshit. Let's be honest. Seriously. Angry Christian (talk) 01:09, 2 April 2008 (UTC)

It's "silly" and "puffery" well fuck I didn't give him that title, take it up with Baylor for crying out loud.

Umm...how is that possibly relevant? I said - all job titles are puffery - pretty much by definition. They are high sounding peacockery which serve in lieu of actually paying people more. So why should we be using them? We aren't here to serve as a PR unit for Baylor, or UM Morris, or Oxford. "Distinguished Professor of Electrical and Computer Engineering" isn't a job description, it's a minor honour bestowed on Marks by Baylor. It isn't a job title, it's a pat on the back.

Note the difference between Dawkins' job title:

Charles Simonyi Professor of the Public Understanding of Science, University of Oxford, and Professorial Fellow of New College

and the description in the article:

Richard Dawkins is a British ethologist, evolutionary biologist and popular science writer. He holds the Charles Simonyi Chair for the Public Understanding of Science at the University of Oxford.

Compare that with

Robert Marks is the Distinguished Professor of Electrical and Computer Engineering and Engineering Graduate Director at Baylor University

Now, in my opinion, the whole bit about the Charles Simonyi Chair is unnecessary, but at least it's a real position. A "Distinguished Professor" isn't a position - the position is a "1.0 FTE tenure track position".

Otherwise every single title would have been reverted years ago including PZ Myers bio, Dawkins bio, Kenneth Millers bio, Dembskis bio, Behes bio and on and on

The point is that this isn't a bio. In a bio you do list honourifics. It's appropriate to document them. The point of these sections is to briefly introduce the people. It isn't a place to list titles and create proper nouns out of common nouns.

Let's be honest. Seriously.

What part of what I have said do you consider dishonest? If you want to call me dishonest, at least have the courtesy of actually addressing what I said. Please support your accusations or remove them. Guettarda (talk) 05:59, 2 April 2008 (UTC)

Guettarda asked me to respond on my talk page so here goes...

Guettarda, you asked another question that I want to address first:

"I don't understand why his title matters - his or anyone else's."

As a reader I want to know what "poor" "persecuted Caroline Crocker is up to nowadays. Is she homeless and begging for spare change outside of 7-11 because the mean old darwinists threa her out on the street? No, she's the executive director of the DI inspired IDEA "group" that promotes ID in our higher learning centers. And according to her website for $5,000 she'll tell you and your freinds her tale of persecution (and how evolution causes nazism). Persecution pays ;-) I want to know what Richard "I got caught with my hand in the cookie jar" Sternberg is doing nowadays after his fisco at the Smithsonian. I was fascinated when I found out he is still a volunteer at the Smith and his title is research collaborator. I suspect other people find interest in those details too. I also want to know what PZ Myers title is, and the others. I'm curious and like details and if we have details for one person we should have them for all. I kept noticeing someone was reverting Marks's title over and over, didn't pay attention to who at first. But then I started seeing the baseless WP:Peacock accusation and started paying attention to who kept reverting it. Incidently, Odd Nature if you're going to accuse people of violating WP:Peacock would you mind reading the policy first? If you do so you'll be less likely to to look like a back woods fool in the future. As anyone can see, well anyone who has taken the time to read it, Marks title is in no way a violation of WP:Peacock.

I had gone to the help desk here to confirm using title was appropriate and they gave me feedback and also a link to a policy or two. I even added a link to his employment page to demonstrate this was not peacockery but legit. I had obviously asked for feedback and reasons why my Marks title kept getting deleted at least couple time here and no one ever responded until you did after it appeared Odd Nature and I might be headed for a revert hassle.

There is not a Wikipedia policy that discourages or forbids employment titles and I noticed no one reverted anyones title but Marks. And you and I both know if I started deleting people's titles on other pages I'd be treated as a vandal. Rightfully so.

The only reason Marks's title was deleted is because Odd Nature does not want the reader to see it. THAT is the dishonest piece. There is no Wiki policy to justify it. Odd Nature said complained that Marks' title might appear to "favoring one side of the deabte". Well some people are not trying to favor either side of the debate, some people are trying to write an informative and accurate article.

The real irony is as I have said I don't care about Robert Marks or his title. But I do have an interest in this article and I think the title of the cast of characters is noteworthy. Others expressed a similar take so it's not like wanting to know a controversial person's title is a fringe idea.

Hiding Marks's title while allowing the others is an obvious dishonest sham and I've been around long enough to know where it would go if I were to press the issue. I'm grouchy often, but not a dumb ass. I don't have time for accusations of violating 3Rs...Or fucking around with an RFC. I have a life, seriously. I wife, kids, home, hobbies, sitting around jacking with some RFC on my free time is not my idea of quality living.

So I want to be clear, Odd Nature's removal of Robert Marks' title is a dishonest sham that is grounded in his feeble fear of people being informed and has nothing to do with any Wikipedia policy. That is what I mean by let's be honest and not pussy foot around.

Finally, Guettarda, I do not consider you dishonest or a liar. In fact you're one of the people I respect around here, but even your behaviour in this particular matter has me scratching my head because you have not lifted a finger to remove all the titles used in the article for the others folks but you sat and did nothing as Odd Nature ONLY removed the one for Marks. This selective editing is highly suspect (aka a fucking sham). Again, I could care less about Marks, this is purely a principle thing.

Anyhow, that sums up where I'm coming from and yes this is my final answer. I have no interst in discussing any of this or looking edits or hearing any more arguments. I'm done with it :-) Angry Christian (talk) 02:31, 3 April 2008 (UTC)

Producer Mark Mathis

in the text, he is mentioned to be a (the?) producer of the film, but the film's info box does not mention him. Shouldn't we remove that inconsistency? Northfox (talk) 00:06, 2 April 2008 (UTC)

I was wondering about that myself, especially since he seems to be the only one (other than stein) who regularly gets mentioned in the papers in conjunction with the movie. I was thinking that he had someone remove his name from it for some reason -- he has no wiki article himself! (I don't know that he's all that notable anyways...) Elecmahm (talk) 04:14, 2 April 2008 (UTC)

according to [30] (and they should know), Mathis is an assistant producer. Correct job titles are important, so I took the liberty to change 'producer' to 'assistant producer' where it appeared in the article text.Northfox (talk) 12:53, 2 April 2008 (UTC)

I believe that until the movie comes out and IMDB gets properly updated, we might not have the complete list. For example, IMDB lists Ruloff as an author. Maybe I should add him to the list. Who knows?--Filll (talk) 13:03, 2 April 2008 (UTC)

"Claims that scientists were misled by interviewers" additional information

This section should really mention the whole "domain registration" issue -- apparently the domain "expelledthemovie.com" was registered by them a couple months BEFORE PZ and Dawkins were questioned by the filmmakers; So their claim that "Crossroads" was simply the working title are very dubious. This information should really be included in the appropriate section of this article, as I think it's very pertinent. How should it be sourced? We could probably find a WHOIS link to show when the domain was initially registered. Elecmahm (talk) 04:14, 2 April 2008 (UTC)

Allow me to second this. I actually came to the talk page to suggest the same thing. It's also mentioned in the last three paragraphs of Dawkins' "Lying for Jesus?" blog article. It's a piece of objective evidence that makes the deceitful practices of the makers of the film blatantly obvious. -- HiEv 07:56, 2 April 2008 (UTC)

Introductory Paragraph: Suggested Slight Changes to Remove Editorial Bias in Introduction

I have written a slightly revised opening paragraph for this entry that removes some of the subtleties that sway the reader from an objective point of view...

Expelled: No Intelligence Allowed is a controversial documentary film which suggests that some educators and scientists are being persecuted for their belief that there is evidence of design in nature. Hosted by Ben Stein, the movie investigates if what the film calls "Big Science" allows no dissent from the theory of evolution. The movie goes on to associate the theory to a range of modern movements from Nazism to Planned Parenthood. It is due to be released April 18, 2008.

The above suggested revisions to the opening paragraph takes some of the editorial edge off the existing opening paragraph with only miniscule changes. Feel free to use this revision.

SargonXii (talk) 01:32, 2 April 2008 (UTC)

Do you really think the film "investigates if what the film calls 'Big Science' allows no dissent from the theory of evolution"? Come on. That is a load of nonsense. And probably plagiarism. We are not here to promote this film you know.--Filll (talk) 01:49, 2 April 2008 (UTC)

To answer your question Filll, yes, what you suggest is what I think. However, I will have to wait until the movie is released so I can view and then decide if the movie is a "load of nonsense" as you suggest. It could be, but until we all watch it, we should be reserving judgment. My above suggested changes are miniscule and bring the opening paragraph into a more objective point of view. As the opening paragraph is written now, it looks like something written by any left leaning establishment. SargonXii (talk) 02:19, 2 April 2008 (UTC)

I generally liked SargonXii's version, with a few changes. How about "makes the case that" instead of "investigates if." JBFrenchhorn (talk) 01:52, 2 April 2008 (UTC)

Ok, thank you for taking to time to provide some ideas for changes here on the talk page. I have some minor conerns about your suggestions. First he film does not "suggest" or "investigate" anything. They shout it as loud as they can and cry persecution. The write antagonistic articles on their blog portraying PZ Myers and Richard Dawkins as Big Science "Thought Police". They indulge in all sorts of nasty character assassinations, the movie does the same. Going from Dawkins to death camps to PZ Myers to death camps. That's propaganda to entice emotion and prejudice, not a documentary that "investigates". From everythning I have seen and read they don't investigate anyhthing, they make a one sided case against the scientific community and portray evolution as a cause for Nazism. Your suggestions would be awesome if we were talking about a documentary, but this is a propaganda piece that is composed of distortions and claims that are simply not true (demonstrably fale). That is what makes editing it so difficult, it's riddles with dishonesty. Maybe someone else has some ideas, I find the intro as it is to be acceptable. Angry Christian (talk) 01:53, 2 April 2008 (UTC)

While there are many who consider it to be a propaganda piece, there are many others who consider it a documentary. We must make sure we don't give undue weight to either viewpoint. Incidentally, I too think the opening is acceptable as is for now. JBFrenchhorn (talk) 02:03, 2 April 2008 (UTC)

While there are many who consider it to be a propaganda piece, there are many others who consider it a documentary. We must make sure we don't give undue weight to the either viewpoint. Incidentally, I too think the opening is acceptable as is for now. JBFrenchhorn (talk) 02:03, 2 April 2008 (UTC)

JBF, with all due respect we are not obligated to give equal weight to a fringe idea nor are we obligated to soften the harsh and antagonostic quality of this propaganda piece. Inconvenient Truth is controversial, this is an your face DARWIN CAUSED THE JEWS TO DIE HORRIBLE DEATHS! "documentary" But you and I agree the intro is not broken. Angry Christian (talk) 02:08, 2 April 2008 (UTC)

It is a piece of vile disgusting hate mongering propaganda by evil people. That is what it really is. And full of lies. What if I made a "documentary" that made the same sort of commentary about fundamentalist Christians? "Christians are disgusting pigs that kill children and drink their blood. Christians are stupid and want to kill all Jews. Christians cause all wars and should be put to death for their crimes." Would that be a good "documentary"? Give me a break here.--Filll (talk) 02:15, 2 April 2008 (UTC)

Filll is correct. Had they taken any group of people on other than "atheists" and "darwinists" it would be called hate speech. Interesting to note that the last creationist propagande piece that portrayed "Darwinism" as the cause for Nazism was slammed by the Anti-Defamation League for trivializing the Holocaust and blaming Darwin for it. Check it out ADL Blasts Christian Supremacist TV Special & Book Blaming Darwin For Hitler. Angry Christian (talk) 02:22, 2 April 2008 (UTC)

Thank you for your honest opinion AC. I assume you have seen the film since you are more sure than I as to whether the film "suggests" or "investigates" anything. I cannot vouch for the content of the film for I have not seen it. My suggested word use I feel does not promote a positive or negative viewpoint of the film, only an unbiased one.

Perhaps their website attacks others as you suggest, I will have to review. Even if what you propose is true, is that justification to return the attack via the Wikipedia website? Michael Moore visciously attacked President Bush over the events of 911, the presidents character was ripped apart, yet I don't see the gross negativity in the Wikipedia posting against Mr. Moore and his movie Farenheit 911 that I see here on Bill Steins production. A comparison of the two movies implies bias. And thats fine if its the case, but the readers need to know that.

It sounds as if Expelled is as much a documentary as An Inconvenient Truth or Farenheit 911 or the newly released Fitna. There are just as many who would suggest all three of these movies are simply propaganda pieces as well. Is this justification to present the movies in a negative light here on Wikipedia as well?

Don't forget that Mel Gibsons Passion of the Christ was called a movie that would increase Anti-semitism. Did it? Darwinian theory at its source suggests that some men are further along the evolutionary chain than others. Nazism thought the same thing. Whether Darwinism was the source of the Nazi belief I do not know, but their philosophies were the same at that point of our history. I didn't want to discuss the topic of the movie, but since you use one of their points as justification to present this movie in a more negative light, I felt the need to expand on your comments a bit. —Preceding unsigned comment added by SargonXii (talk • contribs) 02:41, 2 April 2008 (UTC)

We do not whitewash the movie. And NPOV requires that we do not. That is all. We do not attack the film. We present positive and negative reviews. We let the producers have their say and present their ideas, in great detail, in the article. However, it is all lies and nonsense, but we let them spew their vile hatred. --Filll (talk) 03:37, 2 April 2008 (UTC)

It is a pure vile obscenity, mainly because in American culture Atheists and Scientists are somewhat powerless. But it is sick. Really sick. From the same people that brought you slavery. And the Inquisition. And the Crusades. And the Pogroms. And yes, the Holocaust (read On The Jews and Their Lies which was the real motivation behind Mein Kampf). And now want to bring back stoning. Essentially, a Christian Taliban. People who are currently behind torture. People who preach that homosexuals should be executed. Real nice. On and on and on and on. If Jesus was walking the earth today, they would be first in line to attack him. Horrible awful people.--Filll (talk) 02:44, 2 April 2008 (UTC)

Off topic, Filll. This talk page is about improving the article, not to criticize the historic Christian church. I am amazed how you can equate the makers of the film with crimes committed centuries ago - and then even extrapolating to what will be their next actions.Northfox (talk) 03:20, 2 April 2008 (UTC)

Yes. I don't think the filmmakers are blaming atheists for the Holocaust. They are simply talking about ideas that they believe led to the Holocaust. And please do not blame Christians for the Holocaust. That's kind of like blaming atheists for the Holocaust, is it not? JBFrenchhorn (talk) 03:29, 2 April 2008 (UTC)

Obscenely wrong ideas. It really is shameful. You do not think that the SS officers were mostly good Christians (or presented themselves as such)? You do not think Martin Luther was not a good Christian (or presented himself as such)? I do not blame the Jews for the Holocaust. Or the Buddhists. Or Atheists. Or Hindus. Or Muslims. So... Look when someone produces a piece of vile nonsense like this, it is going to offend. So take a good look at it, because it is offensive.--Filll (talk) 03:40, 2 April 2008 (UTC)

No, I don't believe the SS were good Christians. Whether they said they were such is a different matter. Even if they did, they certainly gave away that they weren't by their actions. I believe Luther was Christian. However, I also don't think he advocated the wholesale slaughter of Jews. The Expelled film does not say that atheists and evolutionists advocate the murder of Jews either. It does present the idea that the concepts of evolution led to the Holocaust (even though Darwin and the other early evolutionists did not necessarily desire it). The concept that the survival of the fittest is the law of human advancement naturally leads to the conclusion that one group of people could commit genocide against a group they feel is inferior. This idea is very wrong, as you and I agree. I believe the film points out this connection, though. I'm looking forward to seeing the film in a few weeks. JBFrenchhorn (talk) 05:41, 2 April 2008 (UTC)

Totally off topic, but the SS were church-going. In a rapidly secularising society their embrace of the church and church weddings was seen as positive. Luther did call for the destruction of Jewish homes, synagogues and their religious books, and for the confiscation of their property their expulsion. He wrote "we are at fault in not slaying them" which condones and excuses their murder. All of our actions fall short of being "true" Christians. The SS were Christians. Gerhard :Kittel's work is still a standard reference in seminaries.

"The concept that the survival of the fittest is the law of human advancement naturally leads to the conclusion that one group of people could commit genocide against a group they feel is inferior". The concept of genocide is as old as humanity and is actually called for in the Bible. Killing the "inferior" isn't an idea that post-dates Darwin. People consciously practised that behaviour since at least the beginning of agriculture. If anything, you should draw the opposite conclusion from Darwin - that contrary to what Malthus said about being overrun by "inferiors", that nature would select what's "superior". Anyone who sees a justification for genocide in evolutionary biology is getting the fundamental ideas of evolutionary biology completely wrong. Guettarda (talk) 06:17, 2 April 2008 (UTC)

We have an entire article on this topic - Nazism and religion. While Roman catholicism was the official religion of Nazi Germany, the Nazis embraced a highly distorted state-run version of Catholocism essentially purged of all elements that could divide loyalties from the party. Moreover, they tended to dabble in paganism and the occult, the SS in particular. Raul654 (talk) 06:28, 2 April 2008 (UTC)

Hitler was referred to as the Messiah by his followers. He was the epitome of the Antichrist in that he claimed the role of Messiah but acted in the opposite. Hitler embodied the opposite of the church Christ set up when he walked this earth. Satanists today quote scripture as part of their chants replacing Christ with their messiah, Satan. They enter churches to seek and destroy. The point of all this is anyone can claim to be a christian, anyone can enter through the doors of a church, even SS officers. Does this mean they are "christians?" It is what is in one's heart that will determine their allegiance and ultimately their eternal destiny. SargonXii (talk) 09:04, 2 April 2008 (UTC)

Until I ran into this article, I have always been an ardent supporter of Wikipedia. It was not that long ago that Wikipedia was making negative headlines for allowing laymen to edit entries on specific subjects. To me that seemed to be a good concept to get away from the mainstream cookie cutter journalists that dominate our sources of information.

But this particular entry is written in the same way the standard mainstream media would write on it. It is full of subtle bias by word use and seems to generate a warning against the content of the film to the unsuspecting reader far more than presenting an overview of the film itself. And for those that suggest as I do, we are responded to here with the same hostility our adversaries purport exists in the movie. Even a simple suggestion to change the words "claim" to "suggests" or "investigates" is met with some hostility. Normally, it is only the trained journalistic mind that would respond so negatively to such minor changes.

Anyways, my only point in commenting here is to remove the subtle bias found in the opening paragraph of this entry. Wikipedia has no obligation to remain objective, that has been stated and I accept. The problem is the average reader will assume objectivity exists here and whether Wikipedia wants it or not, they now have a responsibility to behave as such because the internet world relies heavily on the information found on this site. We know Expelled is biased, its obvious, so we are able to take it with a grain of salt as we should. The general public does not know that Wikipedia is biased, and that to me is propaganda at its worst. —Preceding unsigned comment added by SargonXii (talk • contribs) 09:32, 2 April 2008 (UTC) SargonXii (talk) 09:35, 2 April 2008 (UTC)

Sorry that bit of sophistry is not good enough to get us to change our LEAD which (1) is the product of consensus (2) is at least written in English, compared to your suggestion (3) follows LEAD and NPOV (4) is properly sourced.--Filll (talk) 10:38, 2 April 2008 (UTC)

SargonXii: to suggest that using adjectives such as "suggest" and ""investigate" to characterise Expelled is "objective" is ludicrous. They did not "investigate" anything, they have simply regurgitated claims that the DI and other creationists have been making for years (and which have long since been debunked as exaggerations, misrepresentations, or outright falsehoods), and likewise they don't "suggest" a link between evolution and the Holocaust, they proclaim it at every opportunity:

In fact, Nazi Germany is the thread that ties everything in the movie together. Evolution leads to atheism leads to eugenics leads to Holocaust and Nazi Germany

Hrafn^Talk_Stalk 11:54, 2 April 2008 (UTC)

so, shall we just redirect this article to reductio ad Hitlerum until there is actually anything to report? dab (𒁳) 17:22, 2 April 2008 (UTC)

People presented in the film

In the "People presented in the film" section, when listing the pro-intelligent design scientists, it attacks their creditability in several cases. For example, the article talks about the Sternberg peer review controversy, which, as I have just read, does have to deal with the movie. However, it is bias in the way it presents the facts-- in fact, it is clearly an attack (and has another point of view, backed by facts, not printed in the article). When listing the pro-evolution scientist, no such attack is found.

My suggestion is, in interest of neutrality, that the attacks on the pro-intelligent design scientists be removed. Or, if you feel they are necessary, you should also list controversies about Richard Dawkins, Michael Shermer, and PZ Myers. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.12.204.220 (talk) 18:54, 2 April 2008 (UTC)

A major part of the film is about the "controversies" involving the pro-ID people, describing the incidents they were involved in and claiming that the fact that several were not promoted subsequently was "persecution". The account in the film and as presented by its supporters is a primary source, and we have to base our description of the incidents on reliable third party sources to meet the requirements of verifiability and no original research policies, balancing the various viewpoints about the incidents in accordance with WP:NPOV and WP:NPOV/FAQ. The film includes interviews with scientists and philosophers about their views on the relationship of science and religion, edited and set in a context to distort their statements in a way that supports the film's claim that "Big Science" is cruel to creationists. Nothing there about "controversies" about these people, if indeed there are any controversies about them. For us to cover any alleged controversies, we'd need a reliable third party source discussing the issues in relation to the film. Got such a source? ... dave souza, talk 19:45, 2 April 2008 (UTC)

I believe there are a few controversies of this type that these people have commented on. Either the ones presented in the film, which they said were complete trash. Or 3 or 4 instances of people who supported evolution, and were fired or persecuted by others who have an agenda to promote intelligent design. These sorts of controversies are unfortunately the complete opposite of what the producers of the film had in mind. Oops!--Filll (talk) 20:15, 2 April 2008 (UTC)

Censorship revealed, Big Science blamed for terrorism

One thing that can be said about the Expelled website, it's brought to light a shocking example of expulsion and censorship. Another post has revealed how Big Science created the conditions for what's probably the worst ever act of terrorism – "Blaming Darwin for the Holocaust is like blaming the Wright brothers for 9/11."comment 186 by Boris . . . dave souza, talk 21:55, 2 April 2008 (UTC)

I hope you're being sarcastic, however this page is for discussing improvements to the "Expelled" article, not for personal commentary on other matters. Thank you. -- HiEv 09:07, 3 April 2008 (UTC)

Well, it's actually a third party commentary on Expelled by James F. McGrath, Associate Professor of Religion at Butler University, Indianapolis, blogged on his website as "Exploring Our Matrix: Ironically NOT Expelled From Expelled". Retrieved 2008-04-03.. He's mentioned it again here, in a further post about a new Freedom Friday publicity campaign for the launch of Expelled announced by a promotional e-mail which apparently suggests renting a theater for a local showing. Much to his amusement. I've some doubts about the notability of all this, but others may wish to discuss on this talk page whether these points should appear in the article. .. dave souza, talk 09:45, 3 April 2008 (UTC)

I suspect this is probably too obscure for this article, unless someone else picks up on it. However, it is interesting how this sort of thing resonates with people. It really makes you realize how Hitler worked his magic over people; he gave them simple answers to complicated questions, that they were already predisposed to believe. Economy bad? Jews fault. Jews bad. Christians good. Kill the Jews!

Holocaust bad? Darwin's fault. Let's get rid of evolution to get rid of everything bad like pornography and abortion and divorce and wars and unemployment and hangnails.

Muslims poor? Muslims thought to be violent? West's fault. Let's riot and kill to prove we are not violent!

Failing your courses? Studying is hard? It is because God has decided that studying and knowledge is bad. Brains bad. Stupid good. Yaaaaah!

Let's face it; the average person is completely stupid. And wants easy answers to problems. And is easily manipulated. --Filll (talk) 13:01, 3 April 2008 (UTC)

I totally agree. Teen pregnancy rising? STDs rising? Public education suffering? Christianity's fault. Christianity bad!

Everyone wants simple answers for their problems. Dolewhite (talk) 19:41, 3 April 2008 (UTC)

STDs and teen pregnancy and bad public education are not blamed on Christianity by anyone notable are they? Any textbooks written for use in public schools that promote this? This just sounds just like more defensiveness; "oh us poor Christians the world is against us, we have to fight back" !! blah blah blah. What nonsense...Sign your kids up at Jesus Camp why don't you?--Filll (talk) 20:47, 3 April 2008 (UTC)

Take a look at the Wiki page on the subject and tell me what you think. As for Jesus Camp, I have no children, and I'm not a Christian Fundamentalist. I truly do believe with everything you had written above, but noticed a pointed bias to what you choose to notice. There's a great big culture war raging among two fringes of society, and most people in the middle--like me--don't care for the blame game. I do, however, have a great big stake in intellectual honesty. Dolewhite (talk) 22:15, 3 April 2008 (UTC)

Well thanks for that. But as near as I can tell, it is basically irrelevant for this article.--Filll (talk) 22:28, 3 April 2008 (UTC)

My apologies. I'll try to stay on topic and limit my discourse to Muslims blaming the West and advice to send kids to Jesus Camp in the future. That should help this page remain on topic.

Cheers. Dolewhite (talk) 22:58, 3 April 2008 (UTC)

I'm detecting a distinctly unproductive turn in this thread, and would recommend that we all back away slowly in accordance with the talk page guidelines. MastCell ^Talk 20:51, 3 April 2008 (UTC)

Just to point the obvious, James F. McGrath, Associate Professor of Religion at Butler University, is a Christian. Not all Christians share Stein's views, indeed it seems to be a minority that subscribe to what the Archbishop of Canterbury called a kind of "category mistake", ID. The fact that there's a Christian viewpoint that doesn't take the allegations in the film seriously could be worthy of note, but in my opinion it's borderline and the article's pretty large already. ... dave souza, talk 21:12, 3 April 2008 (UTC)

Fill, your "send your kids to Jesus camp" comments are unnecessary. You are showing an obvious bias against Christians and your comments show true hatred. I'm not going to lecture you on how hatred or bigotry is wrong, I'm just going to ask you to be careful what you say. I mean, saying that God hates knowledge, calm down man. The talk page is not a place to spew hatred. For the record, Stein is Jewish; and even though Christian and Jewish world views are rather similar, its worth noting. Saksjn (talk) 13:17, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

The film does not blame "big science" for terrorism. The commentary you quoted said that blaming darwinism for the holocaust is like blaming darwinism for 9/11. It has nothing to do with the film and is therefore irrelevant. Putting it in the article would further a bias that's already there. Saksjn (talk) 13:17, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

Another 'Victim of Big Science'

Ben Stein Watch, Expelled Edition discusses another of Expelled's supposed 'victims': journalist Pamela Winnick. Hrafn^Talk_Stalk 06:56, 4 April 2008 (UTC)

I've added a comment there about how Winnick's purported objectivity was belied in the original description of her Phillips Foundation fellowship. --Wesley R. Elsberry (talk) 13:29, 4 April 2008 (UTC)

Another legislative showing of Expelled

Ben Stein talks Intelligent Design at the Capitol

This time in Missouri in support of an "intellectual diversity" bill. Hrafn^Talk_Stalk 07:23, 4 April 2008 (UTC)

There is a lot of press coverage of Ben Stein's Missouri appearance. For example, look at this speech he gave before the movie: [31]. He claimed that the big fault of Darwinism is that bird beaks do not explain where gravity comes from. He also appeared at an amazing press conference afterwords [32].--Filll (talk) 14:10, 4 April 2008 (UTC)

Maybe we should put him in contact with our friend Nukeh, who is claiming here that us 'feelthy Darwinists' (am I spelling a bad Spanish accent correctly?) "would expunge the physics of time from education in order to promote Darwin." ;) Hrafn^Talk_Stalk

Recent edits

Regarding the recent edits between Dave Souza and Freedomfighter, [33], I think Freedomfighter's version might be better. Freedom thinks it should be "declared false," while Souza thinks it should be "explicitly refuted." The problem is that "explicitly refuted" suggests absolute authority. JBFrenchhorn (talk) 18:32, 5 April 2008 (UTC)

I don't think the "explicitly refuted" implies "absolute authority". It does imply that the topic was was broached and the claim made was found to be false. "declared false" is misleading because it does not convey the fact that evidence, or, rather, the lack of any presented by IDC advocates Behe and Minnich and explicit testimony from Behe that none such existed, was considered and weighed in this issue. --Wesley R. Elsberry (talk) 18:44, 5 April 2008 (UTC)

"Declared" implies a (relatively arbitrary) fiat decision. "Refuted" implies reasoned discourse, such as Jones' that ID's claims to a "positive case" were disproved by Minnich's and Behe's sworn admissions to the contrary. "Refuted" implies logic not "authority". Hrafn^Talk_Stalk 18:45, 5 April 2008 (UTC)

I prefer refuted to declared for several reasons. Declared sounds like it was capricious and just some sort of whim of some fallible court, and based on no evidence, or a clear misreading and misinterpretation of the evidence. "Declared" has the air of spurious authority, and sounds like the ruling was the transient fancy of someone mistakenly put on the bench, someone who did not recognize The Truth^TM when he saw it, someone who is "legislating from the bench". It confers an air of righteousness to all those "Good Christians" who threatened to kill the judge and his family after the trial, since they are all such good people and follow the Word of God so closely.

Refuted is far closer to what really happened. The intelligent design people brought their most serious legal team to bear on the problem. Their heavy hitters. The Discovery Institute trotted out their best evidence and testimony. And guess what? This evidence and testimony was clearly complete crap, in the eyes of the court, and in the public media. Absolute nonsense. Ever hear the phrase "breathtaking inanity"? Well there is a reason the judge used that phrase. The good conservative republican regular church-going judge. The good Christian judge. He looked at the evidence. And realized it was just nonsense. So...refuted sounds a bit closer to what happened, instead of some ignorant atheistic left wing activist judge just deciding he hated Christians and goodness and truth and the family and family values and attacking the moral foundation of our country, and just making up some silly excuse for ruling the way he did.

In other words, I refute your arguments for using "declared" instead of "refuted".--Filll (talk) 19:15, 5 April 2008 (UTC)

FF raised the question on my talk page, and my response was –

"Read Kitzmiller. It's an explicit point by point refutation of ID claims, not a vague declaration that their claims are "false". Note well that other editors disagree with your view, feel free to take it up on the article talk page, but you'll need consensus to make the change you propose."

dave souza, talk 19:58, 5 April 2008 (UTC)

Intrusion or Inclusion

Consider this edit. It seems to me that User:Brain Rodeo was correct in making this change. But it was reverted by User:Dave souza, restored by yours truly, and reverted again by User:Hrafn. Hrafn stated: "'religious doctrines' have no legitimate place in 'science classes' -- so it is an 'intrusion', not an 'inclusion'"

I think that using "intrusion" violates POV. We aren't supposed to decide what does or does not have a legitimate place in a science class (even if this court or that court has said so) and tailor our wording to reflect that belief. We are just supposed to state the facts. Those people who are being described are opposed to the inclusion of ID in science classes. That is the fact. There is considerable disagreement as to whether or not such inclusion would in fact be an inclusion.

Please reply here if you agree or disagree. Thanks. JBFrenchhorn (talk) 05:15, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

"We aren't supposed to decide what does or does not have a legitimate place in a science class" or whether ID is religion-based or not. While I do not think this is in serious dispute, it is still being contested by the promoters of ID and others. Gralgrathor (talk) 11:44, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

First off, care to explain what "I think that using "intrusion" violates POV" means? And how the word intrusion violates it? Since there are about 20 or more court rulings stating this, all the way up to the Supreme Court, and science classes are for science, and teaching other things in science classes is an intrusion, I do not understand what the problem is.

I will point out that we are not deciding what belongs or doe not belong. We are just reporting what the courts have ruled and the science community has stated. The law of the land. And the consensus of the science community. Period.

Now, I am uncertain about which word to use from a linguistic perspective. However, there is no problem with using the word intrusion if we are just worried about accuracy and exposition.--Filll (talk) 12:04, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

Despite what are biases are I think inclusion does sound less POV. I mean, is it really that different and the changing of it would appease some of the more radical editors and save us from a long argument. Saksjn (talk) 13:26, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

When there is sloppy language and reasoning used, like "less POV", this discussion starts to lose any meaning whatsoever.--Filll (talk) 13:33, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

'inclusion' is "less POV" than 'intrusion' because intrusion has very negative meanings that inclusion does not. We could say Judge X said this was an intrusion into the classroom but wikipedia should avoid strong language like that. ^{(Hypnosadist)} 13:56, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

If its my language you are talking about, please point out the mistakes. I am willing to learn and want to be given advice. Saksjn (talk) 13:40, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

Note well that the sentence in question explicitly shows the views of those opposed to teaching of religion in science classes – "In addition, the motion picture includes interviews with scientists and others who advocate the teaching of evolution and are opposed to the intrusion of intelligent design, creationism and other religious doctrines in science classes." The change to the mealy-mouthed "inclusion" casts their view in the terms preferred by the minority who oppose the US constitutional separation of church and state, and so violates NPOV: Undue weight and NPOV: Giving "equal validity". .. dave souza, talk 14:19, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

In addition, there is the issue of context: these scientists would themselves see it as an intrusion, therefore this form accurately reflects the nature of their objection. --Robert Stevens (talk) 14:28, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

current edit war

I'm really tempted to get involved in the current edit war, but I'm not going to. I'm going to ask every one else to do the same and finish discussing it here before we start edit war this thing to mush. Saksjn (talk) 20:34, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

Stein would have liked Darwin to just keep quiet

I am not about to try to edit this Wikipedia entry, but I'd like to bring up something that might be worth including. Ben Stein basically saying that Darwin should have just shut up:

"5. What would you like to say to Darwin?

[Ben Stein answers]" "You are a wealthy man, you married a wealthy woman, why don’t you just live quietly out in the countryside and not torture us with your half-baked suppositions, which have caused so much misery?" "

So much for their concern about freedom, academic or otherwise. If Stein could have persuaded him not to publish science, that's what he'd have done.

I am not sure where this might go in the entry. Obviously it could serve as a counterexample to any of their claims to be promoting "academic freedom," but that's up to those who know more about editing.

Glen Davidson —Preceding unsigned comment added by Glen Davidson (talk • contribs) 21:07, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for an interesting link, Stein certainly makes some bizarre statements, such as "If you’re taught something, and asked to take it on faith, in your science class, then you should say, “Sir, you’re asking me to take it on faith. And if we’re talking about things that are taken on faith, then could we also talk about Intelligent Design, which is my faith?” Yup, that argument's really going to help next time there's a court case about pushing religion into science classes. However, my feeling is that it's a primary source in terms of WP: no original research and we really need a published reliable secondary source verifiably making the assessment of Stein's statements. . . dave souza, talk 21:29, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

I like that little interview snippet, but I would prefer to wait until after the interview with Dobson air to incorporate them both into this article. --Filll (talk) 21:45, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

School Field Trips

I have at least one field trip to report. My school is going to watch the movie next Friday. Do we have any other trips that have been reported? Saksjn (talk) 13:13, 8 April 2008 (UTC)

Just a note - You're a minor, and while that doesn't mean we don't respect you as an editor, you should probably be careful about revealing too much information about yourself in relation to this discussion. But do tell us what you think of it - your memories and opinions may not reach the level of verifiable, reliable source, but that doesn't make us not interested in them, and they might be useful for letting us know whether we got the balance right. Optionally [if you want to], take a notebook with you (if possible) and jot down notes on what's covered, the order in which things are covered, in which interviewees are introduced, and so on - that would be extremely useful for knowing how to organise the article =) Shoemaker's Holiday (talk) 15:00, 8 April 2008 (UTC)

What type of school is this? A private religious school? If it's a state school, that has constitutional implications. --Robert Stevens (talk) 16:42, 8 April 2008 (UTC)

Hey Saksjn does your school have an online student news site? If so send us a link to any articles they might publish about this event. Thanks Angry Christian (talk) 17:08, 8 April 2008 (UTC)

No, we don't have an online news site, but the school website might have something on it. I know the school post a school newsletter up, but it mostly just talks about sports and the elementary school. We are a private school, which changes things a lot. I probably should have said that when I posted this. I did mention we were a private school in a different thread, but it should have been re-stated. Thanks for the notebook idea Shoemaker; that's a really good idea. I don't think that mentioning a field trip is revealing to much information, since you guys don't know what school I go to. I'll try to outline when people come in and when different topics are covered. After that we could all have a better idea of what is exactly in the film. Thanks for the idea and I'll try to put my notes in an electronic form at some point so I can post them on here. That way we can all see them. Saksjn (talk) 19:05, 8 April 2008 (UTC)

Aye, just saying you're going on a field trip is probably harmless enough, but, you know, if your school is small, it might start to get too easy to identify you if you start to reveal specific details. And, you know, better to mention it now before you start telling us about the trip itself, which, as a travelogue, offers a lot of chance for revealing personal information. =) Also, be careful about linking the newsletter [or don't do it at all] if the school is fairly small. Shoemaker's Holiday (talk) 20:30, 8 April 2008 (UTC)

External Links

"MichaelWebber" has twice removed the "Expelled Exposed" site from the "External Links" section, leaving only links to "Expelled" promotional sites.

I think that there is a legitimate need for inclusion of the critical reviews. "Expelled Exposed" links all of those, and will keep the "External Links" section compact. Otherwise, there should be links included to a number of the published critical reviews.

Does "MichaelWebber" have some Wikipedia-relevant reason that "Expelled Exposed" should not be linked?--Wesley R. Elsberry (talk) 15:42, 8 April 2008 (UTC)

He's been "washing" some link at Ben Stein too. Angry Christian (talk) 17:09, 8 April 2008 (UTC)

Four publicity/marketing firms!

[34] is a nice little article.--Filll (talk) 17:35, 8 April 2008 (UTC)

Shermer podcast on film

See here. He has a different view than others. Thinks it is well made film and will delight its target audience, and accomplish its goals, as long as they can get people in the seats. Unfortunately, just an audio file so I do not know if we can use it as easily, although I would use it as a source. Comments?--Filll (talk) 23:51, 8 April 2008 (UTC)