Talk:Syrian Kurdistan: Difference between revisions
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[[User:Levivich|Levivich]] and [[User:Attar-Aram syria|Attar-Aram syria]] have made a large effort for finding a lead and their co-production here seems to have found the best reasonable feedback so far. It's the version of Attar Aram syria with the "as" deleted before one of the four "Lesser Kurdistans". |
[[User:Levivich|Levivich]] and [[User:Attar-Aram syria|Attar-Aram syria]] have made a large effort for finding a lead and their co-production here seems to have found the best reasonable feedback so far. It's the version of Attar Aram syria with the "as" deleted before one of the four "Lesser Kurdistans". |
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{{tq2|'''Syrian Kurdistan''' is a Kurdish-inhabited area in northern Syria surrounding three noncontiguous enclaves along the Turkish and Iraqi borders: Afrin in the northwest, Kobani in the north, and Jazira in the northeast. Syrian Kurdistan is sometimes called '''Western Kurdistan''' ({{lang-ku|Rojava Kurdistanê|lit=Kurdistan where the sun sets}}), one of the four "Lesser Kurdistans" that comprise "[[Greater Kurdistan]]", alongside [[Iranian Kurdistan]] ({{lang-ku|Rojhilatê Kurdistanê|lit=Kurdistan where the sun rises}}), [[Turkish Kurdistan]] ({{lang-ku|Bakurê Kurdistanê|lit=Northern Kurdistan}}), and [[Iraqi Kurdistan]] ({{lang-ku|Başûrê Kurdistanê|lit=Southern Kurdistan}}).}} Does anyone have some improvements to add to this lead?The following [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Syrian_Kurdistan#Dec_12_lead_paragraph_draft discussion] was mixed with confusing edits for a solution finding process, so I begin a new discussion.[[User:Paradise Chronicle|Paradise Chronicle]] ([[User talk:Paradise Chronicle|talk]]) 10:58, 17 December 2020 (UTC) |
{{tq2|'''Syrian Kurdistan''' is a Kurdish-inhabited area in northern Syria surrounding three noncontiguous enclaves along the Turkish and Iraqi borders: Afrin in the northwest, Kobani in the north, and Jazira in the northeast. Syrian Kurdistan is sometimes called '''Western Kurdistan''' ({{lang-ku|Rojava Kurdistanê|lit=Kurdistan where the sun sets}}), one of the four "Lesser Kurdistans" that comprise "[[Greater Kurdistan]]", alongside [[Iranian Kurdistan]] ({{lang-ku|Rojhilatê Kurdistanê|lit=Kurdistan where the sun rises}}), [[Turkish Kurdistan]] ({{lang-ku|Bakurê Kurdistanê|lit=Northern Kurdistan}}), and [[Iraqi Kurdistan]] ({{lang-ku|Başûrê Kurdistanê|lit=Southern Kurdistan}}).}} Does anyone have some improvements to add to this lead?The following [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Syrian_Kurdistan#Dec_12_lead_paragraph_draft discussion] was mixed with confusing edits for a solution finding process, so I begin a new discussion.[[User:Paradise Chronicle|Paradise Chronicle]] ([[User talk:Paradise Chronicle|talk]]) 10:58, 17 December 2020 (UTC) |
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:This suggested text is one sided and not neutral and does not take into consideration the sources that disputes the claim that a Kurdistan exists in Syria.--[[User:Supreme Deliciousness|Supreme Deliciousness]] ([[User talk:Supreme Deliciousness|talk]]) 13:28, 17 December 2020 (UTC) |
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![]() | It is requested that a map or maps, showing the three maps of Kurdistan prepared in the 1940s, with their various definitions of Syrian Kurdistan (i.e., the section of Kurdistan inside the existing borders of Syria, preferably, an .svg image showing the various border lines and the locations of the major modern towns (Ras al-Ayn, Qamishli, Kobane, al-Hasaka, Jarabulus, and Afrin), and ideally including the rivers and their tributaries, as can be seen in this map of the Euphrates and the map of the Tigris. The three maps can be at low resolution in the existing map (Top: map presented at the United Nations Conference on International Organization in 1945; Centre: map from the Rizgari Party's memorandum to the United Nations in 1946; Bottom: map drawn in Cairo in 1947) which was adapted from O'Shea, Maria T. (2004). Trapped Between the Map and Reality: Geography and Perceptions of Kurdistan. New York and London: Routledge. pp. 151, 154. ISBN 978-0-415-94766-4., be included in this article to improve its quality. Wikipedians in Syria may be able to help! |
"Kurdistan"
The article Kurdistan defines "Kurdistan" in the lead sentence as a roughly defined geo-cultural territory in Western Asia wherein the Kurdish people form a prominent majority population and the Kurdish culture, languages, and national identity have historically been based
. Does anyone object to using that phrasing in this article, or this altered form: a roughly-defined geo-cultural area in Western Asia inhabited by Kurds
? Levivich harass/hound 22:06, 30 November 2020 (UTC)
- The problem with having that quote about an area in Syria is that other sources show that to be heavily disputed, specially in regards to "historically been based". --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 05:01, 1 December 2020 (UTC)
- Supreme Deliciousness, would adding that it's disputed make it work for you? Something like "a roughly defined geo-cultural territory in Western Asia wherein the Kurdish people form a prominent majority population and the Kurdish culture, languages, and national identity are prominent; the historical implications are disputed." Implications isn't the right word, and that puts prominent in there twice, but I haven't had enough coffee yet. —valereee (talk) 13:13, 1 December 2020 (UTC)
- I think that the current lead is good and does not need to be changed.--Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 15:14, 1 December 2020 (UTC)
- Supreme Deliciousness, would adding that it's disputed make it work for you? Something like "a roughly defined geo-cultural territory in Western Asia wherein the Kurdish people form a prominent majority population and the Kurdish culture, languages, and national identity are prominent; the historical implications are disputed." Implications isn't the right word, and that puts prominent in there twice, but I haven't had enough coffee yet. —valereee (talk) 13:13, 1 December 2020 (UTC)
- The problem with having that quote about an area in Syria is that other sources show that to be heavily disputed, specially in regards to "historically been based". --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 05:01, 1 December 2020 (UTC)
- My support you have for such phrases. I have started a similar discussion called What reliable source opposes that there exists a Syrian Kurdistan. Maybe the discussion there can give you some insights what the possible answers could be.Paradise Chronicle (talk) 01:24, 1 December 2020 (UTC)
- Levivich, as you say, Kurdistan is "roughly defined", meaning every map will be different, different in space and time. The Treaty of Sevres map shows the proposed state of Kurdistan by the WWI allies. The demographics in Kurdistan have dramatically shifted/still shifting. See this book for a description of Diyarbakir province in the late 19th century. It talks about the demographic distribution of the across the different areas of the province My point is that that city (and province to a great extent), now considered by some as the capital of Kurdistan, had a three way population split, Armenians, Kurds and Arabs. One has to be careful when describing a specific geographical area from an ethnic standpoint (sorry, I might be echoing Fiveby here). Cheers, Amr ibn Kulthoumعمرو بن كلثوم (talk) 06:02, 1 December 2020 (UTC)
- That it is about a geo-cultural region and not! of a political entity like the Kurdistan Eyalet or a hypothetical Kurdistan as portrayed in the Treaty of Sevres. This I tried to explain several times already arguing that -stan after Kurdi = Kurdistan simply denotes that it is the "land of Kurds". Lets just go with the hundreds (English, French etc.) of sources that describe a division of Kurdistan into 4 different countries out of which Syrian Kurdistan, Turkish Kurdistan, Iranian Kurdistan and Iraqi Kurdistan arose.Paradise Chronicle (talk) 09:18, 1 December 2020 (UTC)
- عمرو بن كلثوم, The Treaty of Sevres's Kurdish state was not a representation of Kurdistan but just the part of Turkish Kurdistan that would not be part of the big Armenian state that also never eventually existed. There is no relevance to Syrian Kurdistan because it was projected to be under French control just as Iraqi Kurdistan was under British, as eventually happened. East Kurdistan, being already part of Iran and no part of the partition of the Ottoman Empire, it also nowhere mentioned by the Sevres Treaty, which has, ultimately, very little to do with this subject. GPinkerton (talk) 13:54, 1 December 2020 (UTC)
- Levivich, as you say, Kurdistan is "roughly defined", meaning every map will be different, different in space and time. The Treaty of Sevres map shows the proposed state of Kurdistan by the WWI allies. The demographics in Kurdistan have dramatically shifted/still shifting. See this book for a description of Diyarbakir province in the late 19th century. It talks about the demographic distribution of the across the different areas of the province My point is that that city (and province to a great extent), now considered by some as the capital of Kurdistan, had a three way population split, Armenians, Kurds and Arabs. One has to be careful when describing a specific geographical area from an ethnic standpoint (sorry, I might be echoing Fiveby here). Cheers, Amr ibn Kulthoumعمرو بن كلثوم (talk) 06:02, 1 December 2020 (UTC)
Exactly, the Treaty of Sevres didn't talk about a a Syrian Kurdistan because there was no such thing. Amr ibn Kulthoumعمرو بن كلثوم (talk) 17:30, 1 December 2020 (UTC)
- عمرو بن كلثوم, Indeed, in those days it was just West Kurdistan. There was no Syria either. GPinkerton (talk) 17:35, 1 December 2020 (UTC)
Per the text you added, West Kurdistan refers to Diyrabakir. Amr ibn Kulthoumعمرو بن كلثوم (talk) 17:38, 1 December 2020 (UTC)
- عمرو بن كلثوم, Not true. The source (and the text I added) says Diyarbakir is in West Kurdistan. The idea "West Kurdistan" could ever be a synonym for a single city is logically impossible as well as linguistically and geographically absurd. GPinkerton (talk) 17:40, 1 December 2020 (UTC)
Again asking for opinions, this time about this formulation:
- Before the Syrian Civil War, "West Kurdistan", "Western Kurdistan", and "Rojava Kurdistanê" (lit. "Kurdistan where the sun sets"), shortened to "Rojava", referred to the western part of Kurdistan (a Kurdish-inhabited area in central Asia), including Kurdish-inhabited areas of Syria ("Syrian Kurdistan") as well as the western part of Kurdish-inhabited areas of Turkey ("Turkish Kurdistan"), as shown (roughly) on this map (originally published in 1993).
- Since the Syrian Civil War, "West Kurdistan", "Western Kurdistan", "Rojava Kurdistanê", and "Rojava" refer to Kurdish-inhabited areas of Syria ("Syrian Kurdistan") (and not to Turkish Kurdistan) as shown (roughly) on these Syrian Kurdistan maps at Commons, including AANES as shown (roughly) on the lead map at that article.
I'm not proposing this for the lead, just wondering if editors agree or disagree that this is an accurate summary of what the RS say. Levivich harass/hound 20:55, 1 December 2020 (UTC)
- Levivich, according to historical sources. "Western kurdistan" is not in Syria. See this text in the article: "The late 19th-century Chambers's Encyclopaedia referred to "west Kurdistan" as bordering Iran in its entry on that country.[19] A German gymnasium text book from Sorau (modern Żary) describes Diyarbakır as being "on the upper Tigris, in West Kurdistan"." So referring to an area in Syria as "Western Kurdistan" has no historical basis and is a newly invented idea held by some people.--Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 06:34, 2 December 2020 (UTC)
- Levivich, I think the "West" nomenclature is a confusing and imprecise distraction. I'm not wholly sure the map in 1.) is representative of the same divisions; I think the seven principal divisions there are linguistic boundaries distinct from the fourfold geopolitical division referred to in most of the literature. And, no the meaning of Syrian Kurdistan and "Western Kurdistan" has not changed since the previous century, except as to be interchangeable with the Kurdish-led administration of the area emerging since 2011. GPinkerton (talk) 21:05, 1 December 2020 (UTC)
- @GPinkerton: Meaning, at all times, "Rojava" referred to Kurdish-inhabited areas of Syria, and not any areas of Turkey? Levivich harass/hound 21:26, 1 December 2020 (UTC)
- Levivich, I can't answer on the usage in Kurdish in particular, but certainly "Western Kurdistan" has been synonymous with Syrian Kurdistan in English long before the war. The source above refers to our meaning of the names on p. 200 as
the three fragments of Kurdistan along Syria's northern and northeastern borders with Turkey and Iraq
and as "Syrian Kurdistan" on p. 17; I think the "western Kurdistan" Izady refers to is a different one which is off-topic and possibly his own classification. (But does include both Diyarbakir and Syrian Kurdistan!) GPinkerton (talk) 21:40, 1 December 2020 (UTC)- GPinkerton, what do you make of Ismet Cheriff Vanly, writing in 1993 (pp. 139-140), describing Iraqi Kurdistan:
Kurdistan in Iraq is often referred to as Southern Kurdistan but in fact it occupies a more or less central position in the Kurdish territories. It is the link between what is variously known as Turkish, Northern or Western Kurdistan to the north and north-west, and so-called Eastern or Iranian Kurdistan to the east and south-east, and it also borders on the mainly Kurdish areas of the Syrian Jezireh.
Vanly also seems to be referring to Turkish Kurdistan as part of Western Kurdistan? Levivich harass/hound 21:56, 1 December 2020 (UTC)- Levivich, technically that book is from the 1970s, the English translation was from the 1990s. On the face of it, it adds to the case that the "western" label is confusing and much more ambiguous that the "Syrian" option. It's also certainly true that most of Syrian Kurdistan is contiguous with the Turkish side so it would make sense that culturally it would be lumped together as one. (See my comments in the section below regarding Bin Xhet and Ser Xhet.) GPinkerton (talk) 22:05, 1 December 2020 (UTC)
- GPinkerton, what do you make of Ismet Cheriff Vanly, writing in 1993 (pp. 139-140), describing Iraqi Kurdistan:
- Levivich, I can't answer on the usage in Kurdish in particular, but certainly "Western Kurdistan" has been synonymous with Syrian Kurdistan in English long before the war. The source above refers to our meaning of the names on p. 200 as
- @GPinkerton: Meaning, at all times, "Rojava" referred to Kurdish-inhabited areas of Syria, and not any areas of Turkey? Levivich harass/hound 21:26, 1 December 2020 (UTC)
Levivich, the text you just quoted above clarifies exactly what we are advocating here. There are Kurdistan parts in Iraq, Turkey and Iran, but in Syria they are refered to "Kurdish-inhabited areas". Per Fiveby, saying Kurdish-inhabited areas in Syria has many ethno-nationalistic implications. The situation in Syria is and has always been different the the other three countries. Western Kurdistan is around Diyarbakir in Turkey. In Syria on the eve of WWI there was not enough Kurds to justify the use of Syrian Kurdistan, per Vanly above. Remember this is another Kurdish activist, same as Izady, and the maps presented by Izady go against all other ethnographic maps of the area (mostly British) or French mandate demographic description/statistics. Cheers, Amr ibn Kulthoumعمرو بن كلثوم (talk) 22:07, 1 December 2020 (UTC)
- عمرو بن كلثوم, No, there are contiguous "Kurdish-inhabited areas" in four states, and the areas in Syria are called "Syrian Kurdistan". GPinkerton (talk) 22:08, 1 December 2020 (UTC)
"-stan"
That -stan denotes a land and Kurdi before -stan gives Kurdistan I have tried to explain several times. More descriptive 5 times between the 13 and 25 of November. You can review the diffs here,
- [here],
- here,
- here,
- here on the 23rd and 25th November 2020, I added the comment that I haven't received an answer yet on this, and this stood this way. I am actually still waiting for an argument which refutes this -stan argument. Can I assume there is no opposition to this then on the Syrian Kurdistan article talk page and Kurdistan was therefore divided between Syrian, Turkey, Iraq, and Iran giving way to Syrian Kurdistan, Turkish Kurdistan, Iranian Kurdistan and Iraqi Kurdistan which is actually described in multiple academic sources on the topic.Paradise Chronicle (talk) 09:18, 1 December 2020 (UTC)
- Paradise Chronicle, we are going around in circles and I am really fatigued of this right now. In 1939 the french census of the Jazira region showed the bulk of the population being Arabs/Assyrians/Armenians and a minority being Kurds. We have several sources describing how kurds came in waves after waves from Turkey to Syria. We have several sources saying "Syrian Kurdistan" is not real. How can Wikipedia then possibly claim that in the 1920s a "Syrian kurdistan" existed in Syria that was divided? This claim is only a belief held by some people. This is a kurdish narrative that some people go along with. And other do not. It is not a historical fact. It is highly disputed, and it must therefor be presented as a disputed belief in the article. --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 09:39, 1 December 2020 (UTC)
- That Kurd Dagh is Kurdish since centuries and not only after the French Mandate and that Bohtan span over parts of Northern Syria is stated here in the discussion it is so stated also in their respective articles. The Barazi Tribal confederation who wanted an autonomy for the Kurdish region around Jarabulus in Syria was also Kurdish. This denial comes from SD, who wanted to move the article Syrian Kurdistan to Kurdish occupied Regions in Syria in the midst of a the Siege of Kobane by ISIL (also known as ISIS) The Kurds have mainly (I don't know of any battle the YPG or SDF had against non-Jihadist factions in which they captured localities) captured localities from Jihadists and ISIS and haven't attacked the Syrian Governments positions which holds significant and tolerated enclaves within the Autonomous Administration. Call this attempted Move the POV you like, but sources for this can mainly be found in ISIS and other Jihadi outlets or Assadist or Turkish state propaganda.Paradise Chronicle (talk) 10:54, 1 December 2020 (UTC)
- Supreme Deliciousness, I am glad that you are tired of repeating this incorrect claim. We have already seen that it is contradicted by the reliable sources, so repeating it further is unlikely to be fruitful. We have already read that
The northeastern corner of Syria ... has been Kurdish majority since official records began in the last century.
(O’Leary, op. cit.) so unsourced claims to the contrary like these are not going to be considered, as it has already been proved it was a malicious fiction dreamt up by Arab nationalists to claim that there is no such thing as Syrian Kurdistan. As we have read, Kurds have been inhabiting northern Syria for centuries but their numbers were increased even more by refugees from the various wars waged against them in Turkey,this situation regarding the Turkish origin of some Syrian Kurds provided the Syrian rationale for the disenfranchisement of many of these Kurds in modern Syria, which began with the French mandate under the League of Nations following the First World War and the removal of the short-lived rule of Faisal as king. After much acrimony, a French-Turkish agreement arbitrarily made the Baghdad railway line that ran between Mosul in Iraq and Aleppo in Syria the present border between most of Turkey and Syria after it crossed the Iraqi-Syrian boundary. Indeed even today many Kurds in Turkey and Syria who live on either side of the border do not refer to themselves as coming from those states. Rather, for the Kurds of Turkey, Syria is Bin Xhet (below the line), and for the Kurds of Syria, Turkey is Ser Xhet (above the line).
andThe situation regarding the Turkish origin of some of the Syrian Kurds described in Chapter 1 provided the Syrian government’s rationale for the disenfranchisement of many of these Kurds in modern Syria. Never mind the fact that before the Sykes-Picot Agreement artificially separated the Kurds of the Ottoman Empire into three separate states after the First World War (Turkey, Iraq and Syria) all of these Kurds had lived within a single border.
Gunter, Michael (2014). Out of Nowhere: The Kurds of Syria in Peace and War. London: C. Hurst and Co. pp. 9, 19. ISBN 978-1-84904-531-5. GPinkerton (talk) 13:50, 1 December 2020 (UTC)- Source for that kurds were a minority in 1939 French census is CADN, Cabinet Politique, Box 505, no. 204/DJ, from the High Commissariat de la République Française en Syrie et au Liban, Délégation de la Haute Djézireh to Monsieur le LT. Colonel Inspecteur Délégué, 8 February 1939 and can be accesed in Algun, S., 2011. Sectarianism in the Syrian Jazira: Community, land and violence in the memories of World War I and the French mandate (1915- 1939). Ph.D. Dissertation. Universiteit Utrecht, the Netherlands. Page 11 Link --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 14:59, 1 December 2020 (UTC)
- Supreme Deliciousness, actually the source says the opposite, so your comment is wholly mistaken. The totals are actually given on page 12. They state:
- Kurds: 53,315
- Kurdo-Christians: 2,181
- Yazidis: 1,602
- Arabs: 29,769
- Christians: 27,316
- Armenians: 4,200
- Assyrians: 8,767
- As can clearly be seen, the Kurds (even when counted separately to Yazidis and "Kurdo-Christians") are by far the majority in the area, almost twice the size of any other surveyed group. It's obviously not necessary to discuss this irrelevant point any further, since it is clear that the claim:
kurds were a minority in 1939 French census
is both completely wrong and refuted utterly by the source alleged to support the claim. GPinkerton (talk) 16:53, 1 December 2020 (UTC)- Kurds/Kurdo-Christian: 53.315 + 2181= 55,496 kurds. Arabs/Nomads/Christian/Armenian/Assyrian: 29.769 + 25.000 + 27.316 + 4200 + 8767 = 95.052 Non-kurds (Did not ad 1602 Yeezidis to either side as their origin is disputed). --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 18:33, 1 December 2020 (UTC)
- Supreme Deliciousness, Correct. As you can see, the Kurds are a clear majority. GPinkerton (talk) 18:36, 1 December 2020 (UTC)
- Non-kurds are the majority.--Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 18:40, 1 December 2020 (UTC)
- Supreme Deliciousness, "non-Kurds" is not a demographic. Kurds are the majority.
Adding up all the minorities does not make the minorities a majority. The "greater part" of the population were Kurds, just as all the reliable sources say. GPinkerton (talk) 18:45, 1 December 2020 (UTC)majority, n.
Being greater; the greater part.
- OED- In 1939 kurds were the largest minority but they were not the majority. The majority, the greater part were Non-kurds. --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 18:48, 1 December 2020 (UTC)
- Supreme Deliciousness, that's not how the word majority works. What you describe as "largest minority", without any group larger than itself, is in fact the majority, being the "greater part" of the population. QED. GPinkerton (talk) 19:11, 1 December 2020 (UTC)
- GPinkerton, actually that would be the "plurality". —valereee (talk) 14:05, 2 December 2020 (UTC)
- >50% is a majority. If there are three or more groups, one can instead have a plurality. 50% Kurds, if they're the largest of three or more groups, would form a plurality and are not correctly called a majority. —valereee (talk) 14:13, 2 December 2020 (UTC)
- Valereee, No, that's a false dichotomy. A plurality is a kind of majority. e.g. Hilary Clinton won the majority of votes in the 2016 US presidential election: 48.2%. This kind of majority is called a plurality. Majority ≠ ≥50%. GPinkerton (talk) 14:57, 2 December 2020 (UTC)
- GPinkerton: Majority, second paragraph of lead. —valereee (talk) 16:23, 2 December 2020 (UTC)
- Valereee, No, that's a false dichotomy. A plurality is a kind of majority. e.g. Hilary Clinton won the majority of votes in the 2016 US presidential election: 48.2%. This kind of majority is called a plurality. Majority ≠ ≥50%. GPinkerton (talk) 14:57, 2 December 2020 (UTC)
- >50% is a majority. If there are three or more groups, one can instead have a plurality. 50% Kurds, if they're the largest of three or more groups, would form a plurality and are not correctly called a majority. —valereee (talk) 14:13, 2 December 2020 (UTC)
- GPinkerton, actually that would be the "plurality". —valereee (talk) 14:05, 2 December 2020 (UTC)
- Supreme Deliciousness, that's not how the word majority works. What you describe as "largest minority", without any group larger than itself, is in fact the majority, being the "greater part" of the population. QED. GPinkerton (talk) 19:11, 1 December 2020 (UTC)
- In 1939 kurds were the largest minority but they were not the majority. The majority, the greater part were Non-kurds. --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 18:48, 1 December 2020 (UTC)
- Supreme Deliciousness, "non-Kurds" is not a demographic. Kurds are the majority.
- Non-kurds are the majority.--Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 18:40, 1 December 2020 (UTC)
- Supreme Deliciousness, Correct. As you can see, the Kurds are a clear majority. GPinkerton (talk) 18:36, 1 December 2020 (UTC)
- Kurds/Kurdo-Christian: 53.315 + 2181= 55,496 kurds. Arabs/Nomads/Christian/Armenian/Assyrian: 29.769 + 25.000 + 27.316 + 4200 + 8767 = 95.052 Non-kurds (Did not ad 1602 Yeezidis to either side as their origin is disputed). --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 18:33, 1 December 2020 (UTC)
- Supreme Deliciousness, actually the source says the opposite, so your comment is wholly mistaken. The totals are actually given on page 12. They state:
- Source for that kurds were a minority in 1939 French census is CADN, Cabinet Politique, Box 505, no. 204/DJ, from the High Commissariat de la République Française en Syrie et au Liban, Délégation de la Haute Djézireh to Monsieur le LT. Colonel Inspecteur Délégué, 8 February 1939 and can be accesed in Algun, S., 2011. Sectarianism in the Syrian Jazira: Community, land and violence in the memories of World War I and the French mandate (1915- 1939). Ph.D. Dissertation. Universiteit Utrecht, the Netherlands. Page 11 Link --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 14:59, 1 December 2020 (UTC)
- Paradise Chronicle, we are going around in circles and I am really fatigued of this right now. In 1939 the french census of the Jazira region showed the bulk of the population being Arabs/Assyrians/Armenians and a minority being Kurds. We have several sources describing how kurds came in waves after waves from Turkey to Syria. We have several sources saying "Syrian Kurdistan" is not real. How can Wikipedia then possibly claim that in the 1920s a "Syrian kurdistan" existed in Syria that was divided? This claim is only a belief held by some people. This is a kurdish narrative that some people go along with. And other do not. It is not a historical fact. It is highly disputed, and it must therefor be presented as a disputed belief in the article. --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 09:39, 1 December 2020 (UTC)
- SD, if you check the demographic info of each district (also on page 12) and not just the whole Governorate the Kurds are a large majority of almost 100% in at least two of the 4 districts.Paradise Chronicle (talk) 00:42, 2 December 2020 (UTC)
- Valereee yes they are a plurality in the whole Governorate, but they have near 100% majority of 2 of the 4 districts in the table. I assume that there are other localities in the region that would be similarly populated by Kurds to come to the 55.000+ Kurds in the Governorate displayed in the table. Also look at the CIA report of 1948 which includes a CIA Kurdistan map on page 17. Syrian Kurdistan covers most of the northern strip of the Syrian Turkish border and is quite different as the CIA map of 2002.Paradise Chronicle (talk) 15:18, 2 December 2020 (UTC)
- Paradise Chronicle, yes, I was just discussing terminology, not the content. —valereee (talk) 17:05, 2 December 2020 (UTC)
- Valereee yes they are a plurality in the whole Governorate, but they have near 100% majority of 2 of the 4 districts in the table. I assume that there are other localities in the region that would be similarly populated by Kurds to come to the 55.000+ Kurds in the Governorate displayed in the table. Also look at the CIA report of 1948 which includes a CIA Kurdistan map on page 17. Syrian Kurdistan covers most of the northern strip of the Syrian Turkish border and is quite different as the CIA map of 2002.Paradise Chronicle (talk) 15:18, 2 December 2020 (UTC)
- GPinkerton HEre is a more neutral account about northern Syria and Kurds, compared to the POV sources you cite. This is again, ANOTHER evidence about the origin of Kurds in northeastern Syria from a declassified CIA report in 1948.
The Kurds constitute a relatively small minority in Syria and Lebanon. Kurdish communities of long standing are located in the Kurd Dagh area of northwestern Syria, but the largest concentration is in the Jazirah section of northeastern Syria, where a considerable number of Kurdish immigrants settled after the collapse of the Ottoman Empire. Small but politically active Kurdish communities exist in Damascus and Beirut.
- The Kurds, along with other minorities, are accorded equal rights and privileges with the majority groups in Syria and Lebanon. They have parliamentary representation and generally concede that they have received fair treatment in such matters as road-building, construction of schools, and administration of justice. Nevertheless, many of them feel that their integrity as a group is in jeopardy. This feeling is most noticeable in Beirut and Damascus, which have become centers of Kurdish nationalist propaganda, and among the non-native immigrant Kurds, who have retained their traditional hatred of alien domination. The immigrant group has provided most of the leaders of the Syrian and Lebanese Kurds, notably the Badr Khan family, Dr. Ahmad Nazif, and Hassan Hajo Agha.
- The intensive Kurdish immigration continued after the mandate authorities left. David McDowall states the following[1]:
Arab nationalists had good reason to be paranoid about internal and external enemies. Nowhere was the Syrian Arab cause less assured than in the north where so many non-Arab communities lived, particularly in al-Hasaka governorate. The population had grown rapidly, and it was the growth since 1945 that gave cause for Arab concern. In its own words, the government believed that 'At the beginning of 1945, the Kurds began to infiltrate into al-Hasakeh governorate. They came singly and in groups from neighbouring countries, especially Turkey, crossing illegally along the border from Ras al'Ain to al-Malikiyya. Gradually and illegally, they settled down in the region along the border in major population centres such as Dirbasiyya, Amuda and Malikiyya. Many of these Kurds were able to register themselves illegally in the Syrian civil registers. They were also able to obtain Syrian identity cards through a variety of means, with the help of their relatives and members if their tribes. They did so with the intent of settling down and acquiring property, especially after the issue of the agricultural reform law, so as to benefit from land redistribution.' Official figures available in 1961 showed that in a mere seven year period, between 1954 and 1961, the population of al-Hasakah governorate had increased from 240,000 to 305,000, an increase of 27 per cent which could not possibly be explained merely by natural increase. The government was sufficiently worried by the apparent influx that it carried out a sample census in June 1962 which indicated the real population was probably closer to 340,000. Although these figures may have been exaggerated, they were credible given the actual circumstances. From being lawless and virtually empty prior to 1914, the Jazira had proved to be astonishingly fertile once order was imposed by the French mandate and farming undertaken by the largely Kurdish population.... A strong suspicion that many migrants were entering Syria was inevitable. In Turkey the rapid mechanisation of farming had created huge unemployment and massive labour migration from the 1950s onwards. The fertile but not yet cultivated lands of northern Jazira must have been a strong enticement and the affected frontier was too long feasibly to police it.
- In addition to McDowall (1998), McDowall (2004), de Vaumas, Gibert and Fevret, Sykes map (1907) (and many more) this should conclude our discussion about the origins of Kurds in northeastern Syria (i.e. the majority of them (if not all) immigrated from Turkey). When you claim these areas are "part of Kurdistan", what does that make of the native population (majority) living on their lands before Kurds arrived? Trespassers? Does that sound fair to you? Cheers, Amr ibn Kulthoumعمرو بن كلثوم (talk) 06:05, 2 December 2020 (UTC)
- Amr ibn Kulthoum, thank you for bringing this important and valuable information about kurds infiltrating from turkey into Syria. This must be added into the article. --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 06:26, 2 December 2020 (UTC)
- Supreme Deliciousness, certainly it belongs in the article, although definitely not with the ridiculous misinterpretation that it proves the Ba'athist lie that the Kurds were not a majority in Syrian Kurdistan. It does not, and indeed the fact that even after all this discussion no source has bee produced which states what you have claimed speaks volumes about the credibility of this long-debunked and nationalistic claim. GPinkerton (talk) 12:57, 2 December 2020 (UTC)
- عمرو بن كلثوم, You appear to be labouring under the false impression the wall of text you have posted above supports your claim that
the majority of them (if not all) immigrated from Turkey
, a claim which is rejected by reliable sources which all state was a lie invented by the racist Syrian government. It does not. I do not see why you keep referring to Sykes; he states quite unambiguously that Deir az-Zor was majority Kurdish in 1907. The idea Kurds are not native to Syria is malicious lie and it is unfortunate that you persist in repeating it as though it could be countenanced as anything more than ahistorical propaganda. The phrasingthe non-native immigrant Kurds
clearly differentiates these Kurds from the Kurds native to the area, as do all the otehr sources, a fact which it is impossible to hand-wave away with the ludicrous claim that they are justthe POV sources you cite
. Please find some actual source that states what you claim, or give up claiming it. Please. GPinkerton (talk) 12:55, 2 December 2020 (UTC)- Your words such as
a lie invented by racist Syrian government.
andThe idea Kurds are not native to Syria is malicious lie
do not help and are aggressive/rude. Which one of my sources is a Syrian or even an Arab source? All sources are French or British and are reporting on the French mandate era using French statistics. Amr ibn Kulthoumعمرو بن كلثوم (talk) 18:44, 2 December 2020 (UTC)- عمرو بن كلثوم, I'll ask you to start learning to write short. I know that's difficult, especially when as I assume you aren't writing in your first language. No one wants to read more than a few sentences, and many won't bother to read it at all if it's longer than it needs to be. Draft your argument, then go back and edit mercilessly, removing everything that isn't absolutely crucial to making your primary point. It takes a lot longer to write short, but it's a critical skill in persuading other editors. —valereee (talk) 19:05, 2 December 2020 (UTC)
- Hi Valereee, since I used quotes, I didn't want to take things out of context, but bolded the most important stuff. This is why my quotes were long, sorry. Now, I hope an admin will be dealing with the renewed personal attacks and aggressive language from GPinkerton addressed at Supreme Deliciousness at myself (or anyone who disagrees with them):
- عمرو بن كلثوم, I'll ask you to start learning to write short. I know that's difficult, especially when as I assume you aren't writing in your first language. No one wants to read more than a few sentences, and many won't bother to read it at all if it's longer than it needs to be. Draft your argument, then go back and edit mercilessly, removing everything that isn't absolutely crucial to making your primary point. It takes a lot longer to write short, but it's a critical skill in persuading other editors. —valereee (talk) 19:05, 2 December 2020 (UTC)
- Your words such as
- Amr ibn Kulthoum, thank you for bringing this important and valuable information about kurds infiltrating from turkey into Syria. This must be added into the article. --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 06:26, 2 December 2020 (UTC)
ridiculous misinterpretation that it proves the Ba'athist lie
malicious lie and it is unfortunate that you persist in repeating it
You appear to be labouring under the false impression the wall of text you have posted
Thanks, Amr ibn Kulthoumعمرو بن كلثوم (talk) 20:18, 2 December 2020 (UTC)
- عمرو بن كلثوم, I do get that. It's tempting to write more, in order to be very clear. But it's counterproductive, and it's actually considered perfectly reasonable for editors, who are all volunteers, to ignore walls of text as time-wasters. You can collapse the extra stuff that you feel is needed to provide background; that way people who want to can get your reasoning. But if you don't make your main points in a few sentences, few people will want to spend the time. —valereee (talk) 20:36, 2 December 2020 (UTC)
References
- ^ McDowall, David. Modern History of the Kurds, I. B. Tauris & Company, Limited, 2004. pp. 473-474.
Best sources for this article
I looked for book-length scholarship by academic publishers from the last five years or so, and this is what I came up with:
- About Syrian Kurdistan in particular
- Matthieu Cimino (2020), Syria: Borders, Boundaries, and the State, Springer. [1]
- Harriet Allsopp & Wladimir van Wilgenburg (2019), The Kurds of Northern Syria: Governance, Diversity and Conflicts, Bloomsbury. [2]
- Hilly Moodrick-Even Khen, Nir T. Boms & Sareta Ashraph, eds. (2019), The Syrian War: Between Justice and Political Reality, Cambridge. [3]
- Brendan O'Leary (2018), The Kurds, the Four Wolves, and the Great Powers, The Journal of Politics. [4] PDF — not a book, but a book review of:
- Harriet Allsopp (2016), The Kurds of Syria: Political Parties and Identity in the Middle East, Bloomsbury. [5]
- Michael Gunter (2014), Out of Nowhere: The Kurds of Syria in Peace and War, Hurst. [6]
- Michael Gunter (2017), The Kurds: A Modern History, Markus Wiener Publishers. [7] (O'Leary reviewed the 2016 ed.)
- (And four other books about Kurds in Turkey, Iraq, and Iran.)
- Samer N. Abboud (2015), Syria, Wiley. [8]
- About Kurdistan in general (including Syrian Kurdistan)
- Güneş Murat Tezcür, ed. (2020), A Century of Kurdish Politics: Citizenship, Statehood and Diplomacy, T&F. [9]
- Zeynep N. Kaya (2020), Mapping Kurdistan: Territory, Self-Determination and Nationalism, Cambridge. [10]
- David Romano, Mehmet Gurses, and Michael Gunter (2020), The Kurds in the Middle East: Enduring Problems and New Dynamics, Lexington Books. [11]
- Sebastian Maisel (2018), The Kurds: An Encyclopedia of Life, Culture, and Society, ABC-Clio. [12]
- Michael Gunter (2018), Routledge Handbook on the Kurds, T&F. [13]
- David L. Phillips (2015), The Kurdish Spring: A New Map of the Middle East, Transaction Publishers. [14]
- Mehrdad Izady (2015, orig. 1992), Kurds: A Concise Handbook, T&F. [15]
- David McDowall (April 2021, 2004, orig 1996), A Modern History of the Kurds, Bloomsbury. [16]
Anything missing from this list? Anything that should be removed from the list? Some but not all of these are already in the article (or in related articles). Levivich harass/hound 06:26, 7 December 2020 (UTC)
- I agree with this sources. Merdad Izady has strong opponents, and even the climate info from him is seen as unreliable and is blamed to come from a nationalist. I don't share this view, but it will be difficult to source anything with him.
- Others I would also recommend are:
- Jordi Tejell: Syria's Kurds: History, Politics and Society
- Jordi Tejel: Le mouvement kurde de Turquie en exil: continuités et discontinuités du nationalisme kurde sous le mandat français en Syrie et au Liban (1925-1946)
- Roger Lescot is also good. His books you can read online hereParadise Chronicle (talk) 18:23, 7 December 2020 (UTC)
Also add Robert Lowe "The Emergence of Western Kurdistan and the Future of Syria" in D. Romano et al. (eds.), Conflict, Democratization, and the Kurds in the Middle East (2014). As for Izady (aside from the academic criticism), it is not as simple as climate. --Attar-Aram syria (talk) 08:24, 8 December 2020 (UTC)
extended discussion
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[Izady] is treating the climate of Afrin as related to the climate of Zagros and not Aleppo. So, that deleted section is clearly used to push one POV and not the other: a greater Kurdistan taken by other countries. So nothing innocent in Izady's work. Now, can we agree on one thing: if these Kurdish inhabited regions are part of historical Kurdistan, then a historical source predating the establishment of Syria should be presented? If the criteria is: wherever Kurds live is a Kurdistan, then we will have Kurdistan in Damascus and Berlin. If Syria took parts of Kurdistan when it was established, then it is necessary to prove that these parts, all of them, were part of the historical region of Kurdistan before Syria took it (or France, whatever)- (even if they became parts of historical Kurdistan in 1900 is fine! just a historical source please, any!- ofcourse we are not talking if Kurds considered these regions parts of Kurdistan, because then we can also consider Cyprus part of Syria because Syrian nationalists claims it to be such).--Attar-Aram syria (talk) 08:24, 8 December 2020 (UTC)
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Somehow I forgot to put Cimino 2020 on my list, so I added it. Also, I added O'Leary even though it isn't a book, because it's a book review by a reputable scholar in a reputable journal. (Are there any other recent book reviews like it?) Re: the above, Tejel, Lescot, and Lowe I think are all reputable scholars as well and their works are usable. However, given the changes "on the ground", I think we should really lean on very recent scholarship: 2019-2020 preferably, post-2016 second choice, post-2011 third choice, and only use pre-war as necessary to fill in gaps. So I think, for example, for Tejel's views about Syrian Kurdistan, it's better to rely more on Tejel 2020 (in Cimino 2020) than Tejel 2009, although Tejel 2009 could be used to fill in gaps of material not covered by more recent sources. For this reason, even O'Leary's book review I think should be considered "second choice", because it was written in 2018 and reviews books written in 2016 or earlier. We want to tell our readers what Syrian Kurdistan is today, according to scholars. Levivich harass/hound 07:27, 9 December 2020 (UTC)
- I don't know how to vote here, but if the sources here presented are included in the article I agree.Paradise Chronicle (talk) 11:15, 10 December 2020 (UTC)
Dec 12 lead paragraph draft
Without cites, links, formatting, etc.:
Syrian Kurdistan is a Kurdish-inhabited area in northern Syria surrounding three noncontiguous enclaves along the Turkish and Iraqi borders: Afrin in the northwest, Kobani in the north, and Jazira in the northeast. It is the Syrian part of Kurdistan, a roughly-defined Kurdish-inhabited area spanning several sovereign states in Central Asia. Originally a collection of medieval principalities, Kurdistan was part of the Ottoman Empire until it was partitioned by the Allied Powers following World War I. The three enclaves were placed in the French Mandate for Syria, while the rest of Kurdistan was divided between what became the modern states of Turkey, Iraq, and Iran, among others. Syrian Kurdistan is thus sometimes called Western Kurdistan (Rojava Kurdistanê, lit. "Kurdistan where the sun sets"), one of the four "Lesser Kurdistans" that comprise "Greater Kurdistan", alongside Iranian Kurdistan (Kurdish: Rojhilatê Kurdistanê, lit. 'Kurdistan where the sun rises'), Turkish Kurdistan (Bakurê Kurdistanê, 'Northern Kurdistan'), and Iraqi Kurdistan (Başûrê Kurdistanê, 'Southern Kurdistan').
Thoughts? I don't think it's particularly well written, but I'm mostly curious if it has all the right parts in the right order with the right terminology. Is it complete (for a first paragraph)? Is it neutral? Levivich harass/hound 08:54, 12 December 2020 (UTC)
- No it is not the right terminology. The suggested text is presenting "Syrian Kurdistan" as being a real name for an area in Syria, which it isn't. The text is also claiming that before WW1 there was a "Kurdistan" that was divided and placed within Syria, which is also historically inaccurate. Current lead is better where "Syrian Kurdistan" is presented as a pov from some people which is the accurate situation and terminology.--Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 10:57, 12 December 2020 (UTC)
Maybe-Can this be verified? I mean the historical part? The principalities constituting Kordistan and conquered by Selim I did not include these Syrian regions. This paragraph is inaccurate as it gives the impression that these regions are part of historical Kurdistan, but no historical source supports this. Also, no comtemporary source from 1918 mentions that these regions are part of the Kurdistan partitioned between allies. What are these information based on? I would be okay with it if this historical background that does not apply to Syrian Kurdistan is removed. This is not part of the historical Kurdistan, yet it is Kurdistan today as a result of several demographic and military and political changes. Its better not to mix history with modern developments. I would make it the following:
Syrian Kurdistan is a Kurdish-inhabited area in northern Syria surrounding three noncontiguous enclaves along the Turkish and Iraqi borders: Afrin in the northwest, Kobani in the north, and Jazira in the northeast. Syrian Kurdistan is sometimes called Western Kurdistan (Kurdish: Rojava Kurdistanê, lit. 'Kurdistan where the sun sets'), as one of the four "Lesser Kurdistans" that comprise "Greater Kurdistan", alongside Iranian Kurdistan (Kurdish: Rojhilatê Kurdistanê, lit. 'Kurdistan where the sun rises'), Turkish Kurdistan (Kurdish: Bakurê Kurdistanê, lit. 'Northern Kurdistan'), and Iraqi Kurdistan (Kurdish: Başûrê Kurdistanê, lit. 'Southern Kurdistan').
I hope both parties can see the compromise in my wording: it present Syrian Kurdistan as existing, without qualification, but does not go into the wild historical accounts of Kurdish nationalists that have no support in actual HISTORICAL sources. If everyone can give up a little, we can bring peace to this article (and ourselves).--Attar-Aram syria (talk) 12:33, 12 December 2020 (UTC)
- Attar-Aram syria, your suggestion is not good because it presents "Syrian Kurdistan" as a real entity in Syria, instead as a pov. Also, kurdish nationalists have different vies of what is "Syrian kurdistan" and they include larger parts of Syria, not just 3 enclaves. --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 16:29, 12 December 2020 (UTC)
- Supreme Deliciousness: it is a real thing, and thats a reality. It was established by the Kurds, so it exist now. Presenting it as a Kurdish POV while Kurds are in control of the land isnt realistic. We cant keep fighting here forever!--Attar-Aram syria (talk) 17:07, 12 December 2020 (UTC)
- What was "established by the kurds" ? The kurds who are currently controlling the area call it the Autonomous Administration of North and East Syria. --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 18:14, 12 December 2020 (UTC)
- Supreme Deliciousness: it is a real thing, and thats a reality. It was established by the Kurds, so it exist now. Presenting it as a Kurdish POV while Kurds are in control of the land isnt realistic. We cant keep fighting here forever!--Attar-Aram syria (talk) 17:07, 12 December 2020 (UTC)
- Attar-Aram syria, your suggestion is not good because it presents "Syrian Kurdistan" as a real entity in Syria, instead as a pov. Also, kurdish nationalists have different vies of what is "Syrian kurdistan" and they include larger parts of Syria, not just 3 enclaves. --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 16:29, 12 December 2020 (UTC)
- Thanks to both Levivich and Attar Aram syria for the drafts. @Levivich, I'd leave the historical part out of the lead and insert it in another specific historical section/paragraph. For now, I would just focus on "what it is" in the lead. I support Attar Aram syrias version. Let's find peace for the article and ourselves.Paradise Chronicle (talk) 15:57, 12 December 2020 (UTC)
- Why would we ad a historically inaccurate text in another specific historical section? Wouldn't it just be better if we don't include the inaccurate text in the article? --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 16:29, 12 December 2020 (UTC)
- Agree, that makes sense. Attar-Aram's version looks good to me. Thanks! I still think the lead needs to explain what "Kurdistan" is (specifically, that it isn't a sovereign state), but that can be done later in the lead section (in a different paragraph), and we can defer the discussion of history until then. @Attar-Aram syria: I hope you don't mind, I added some markup to your draft so we can see what it will look like "live". The only thing I didn't link was Afrin, Kobani, and Jazira. I'm not sure what to link it to. I think it should be linked to the region articles (e.g. Afrin Region) but something tells me not everyone would agree with that :-) (If we don't reach consensus on a link target, then let's just leave it unlinked for now?) Levivich harass/hound 17:04, 12 December 2020 (UTC)
- Thanks Levivich and Paradise Chronicle. Im fine with any historic background as long as sound secondary sources based on historical primary sources support it.--Attar-Aram syria (talk) 17:07, 12 December 2020 (UTC)
- Yeah, we'll have to dig into sources to discuss the history formulation. One other thing: should we strike the word "as" in the sentence: "Syrian Kurdistan is sometimes called Western Kurdistan (Kurdish: Rojava Kurdistanê, lit. 'Kurdistan where the sun sets'),
asone of the four "Lesser Kurdistans""? Levivich harass/hound 17:08, 12 December 2020 (UTC)- Sounds good to me.--Attar-Aram syria (talk) 17:10, 12 December 2020 (UTC)
- Yeah, we'll have to dig into sources to discuss the history formulation. One other thing: should we strike the word "as" in the sentence: "Syrian Kurdistan is sometimes called Western Kurdistan (Kurdish: Rojava Kurdistanê, lit. 'Kurdistan where the sun sets'),
- Thanks Levivich and Paradise Chronicle. Im fine with any historic background as long as sound secondary sources based on historical primary sources support it.--Attar-Aram syria (talk) 17:07, 12 December 2020 (UTC)
- Thanks Attar and Levivich for your attempts. However, with all due respect, I think the current lead, developed by Applodion after discussions on the Talk page, better describes the issue at hand. It is not a universally accepted terms. I can come up with hundreds of sources that refer to the area by "Kurdish-inhabited region in Syria". Simply presenting the area as "Syrian Kurdistan" means that the majority of the population, which are non-Kurdish, are living on the land of Kurds, not on their own land. This is simply "adopting" the narrative of the Kurdish nationalists. Thanks. Amr ibn Kulthoumعمرو بن كلثوم (talk) 17:11, 12 December 2020 (UTC)
- The way I read both mine and Attar's revision, they say that Syrian Kurdistan is part of Syria (a sovereign state), and part of Kurdistan (a geographic area, but not a sovereign state). So I don't think anyone reading that would think that Syrian Kurdistan is land that legally belongs to the Kurds, as opposed to land that legally belongs to Syria where Kurds live. ("Land of the Kurds" could mean either Kurdish-owned or Kurdish-inhabited.) That said, would it change your mind if the paragraph was more explicit that Syria is a sovereign state and Kurdistan is not? (This is the reason I had included some sentences about history in my original draft: to explain that Kurdistan is not a sovereign state. I wonder if a second paragraph about history would make the first paragraph clearer, as it were.) Levivich harass/hound 17:20, 12 December 2020 (UTC)
- "Syrian Kurdistan" or "kurdistan" does not exist in Syria as a factual entity, it is only a disputed belief held by some people, and therefor it must be presented as such.--Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 18:18, 12 December 2020 (UTC)
- I do not understand what you mean by "factual entity". "Syrian Kurdistan" isn't a belief, it's a place. It's not an imaginary or fictional place like Atlantis: Afrin, Kobani, and Jazira are real places on Earth. Levivich harass/hound 19:06, 12 December 2020 (UTC)
- Levivich, can you see page 19 of this introduction to a recent work by Jordi Tejel? Unfortunately i don't have access to the full chapter. It is a fluid concept, as a place it is ill-defined and it is and has been a belief. Can you really not see how simplistic it is to assert 'Syrian Kurdistan' is a 'place', 'region', or 'area' while ignoring the implications? It's a term that has meant different things at different times, and has different meanings for different people. It is both a real place and it does not exist depending on the context. What it most certainly is not is
Afrin, Kobani, and Jazira
. fiveby(zero) 23:02, 12 December 2020 (UTC)- Yes, on p. 19 Cimino summarizes the argument made by Tejel in Chapter 11 of that book. I think it's very important to see the context and not, as it were, "cherry pick" quotes. So here are some long-ish quotes:
- From p. 19 (linked above), Cimino's introduction:
... In The complex and dynamic relationship of Syria's Kurds with Syrian borders: Continuities and changes (Chapter 11), Jordi Tejel questions the discourses and spatial representations of "Greater Kurdistan": How was this notion created? What is the spatial ideology carried by the PYD in Syria? Are the Syrian Kurds working to restore "historical" Kurdish territory and, more specifically, do they envisage secession from Syria? By relying on unpublished maps and school books, dating from the sixteenth century to the present day, Tejel demonstrates that the Kurdish territorial imagination, comprising myths, mobilizing stories and political ambitions, is relatively plastic and fluctuating. Recently established, "Rojava" (Syrian Kurdistan) is part of a mythology of pan-Kurdish unity which does not constitute a political objective for the Syrian Kurds in itself, but is rather a "cultural abstract". For the author, "like Arab nationalists in Syria, the Kurdish movement has produced a political discourse that combines pan-Kurdist references intertwined with local patriotism and limited territorial claims".
Yet the author shows that this imagined community is nevertheless very well documented: from the Sharafnama map of 1596 (which displays "extreme expansionist tendencies, in particular to the south") to the Paris conference in 1919, where the Kurdish representative submitted Kurdish territorial claims, the representation of "Greater Kurdistan" is diverse and heterogeneous and is altered according to political contexts and the audiences for which it is intended. After the mandate period ... [it goes on to describe Tejel's chapter].
- We should also look at what Tejel writes in Chapter 11.
- On p. 243, Tejel introduces his chapter by writing:
However, the tensions between the two de fact Kurdish autonomous territories controlled by two competing Kurdish movements since 2011 (Rojava or Western Kurdistan in Northern Syria and the Kurdistan Regional Government in Northern Iraq)...
- On p. 244:
... I shall analyze the maps as well as school textbooks elaborated during the French Mandate and in the post-2011 context ... I shall argue that Kurdish populations and local political actors have developed a complex and dynamic relationship with the Syrian-Turkish and Syrian-Iraqi borders. Like Arab nationalists in Syria, the Kurdish movement has produced a political discourse that combines pan-Kurdish references intertwined with local patriotism and limited territorial claims. The map of Greater Kurdistan reproduced in different formats (including textbooks) definitely forges a sense of common Kurdish identity beyond international borders and Kurdish nationalism. It offers a 'historic territory' which, in turn, implies a narrative of conquest, defense, liberation and loss in which certain 'Others' play a role. In this respect, it is difficult to separate the feelings of national identity and geopolitical visions. Nevertheless, I shall demonstrate that Greater Kurdistan does not constitute an actual political goal for Syria's Kurds. It provides a cultural abstract that supports local political claims and strategies without questioning Syria's borders.
- On p. 250 Tejel writes:
... while some visual representations remain relatively constant (Greater Kurdistan), others such as "Syrian Kurdistan," "Rojava" have varied over the time due to new developments and shifting power dynamics on the ground.
- And on p. 261 he describes the depiction of Kurdistan and Rojava in PYD textbooks:
PYD-sponsored textbooks portray Kurdistan as an ancient country and nation ... Terms with pan-Kurdish connotations are used, such as Northern or Bakur (Eastern Turkey), Southern or Bashur (Northern Iraq), Eastern or Rojhilat (North-Eastern Iran) and Western Kurdistan or Rojava (Northern Syria) ... Unsurprisingly, Kurdistan's boundaries in Syria are more generous and suggest a territorial (and ethnic) continuity between the three traditional Kurdish enclaves in Northern Syria (Kurd Dagh, Kobane and the Upper Jazira), as opposed to the maps produced in the 1930s and 1940s ... in Rojava's textbooks towns such as Afrin and Qamishli deserve as much attention as larger cities (Erbil, Urfa, Diyarbakir) in Iraq and Turkey. Interestingly, while Western and Kurdish media outlets refer to Rojava as a precise de facto autonomous region, in Rojava's textbooks there is no map representing this region in detail ...
- Tejel is making the argument that Syrian Kurdistan as Rojava or "Western Kurdistan", i.e. Syrian Kurdistan as part of a "Greater Kurdistan", is a construct, recently popularized, but not actually a political goal for (all of? most of?) Syria's Kurds. Tejel argues, basically, that Syrian Kurds want a Syrian Kurdistan that is part of Syria. I think this view should be included in the article. I don't think we should say it in wikivoice; it should be attributed to Tejel. Cimino expressly attributes these views to Tejel, after all.
- (Note, BTW, the prominence of the French Mandate and 2011 as two important points in time for Syrian Kurdistan. Our lead should mention those as well.) Levivich harass/hound 00:06, 13 December 2020 (UTC)
- Levivich, can you see page 19 of this introduction to a recent work by Jordi Tejel? Unfortunately i don't have access to the full chapter. It is a fluid concept, as a place it is ill-defined and it is and has been a belief. Can you really not see how simplistic it is to assert 'Syrian Kurdistan' is a 'place', 'region', or 'area' while ignoring the implications? It's a term that has meant different things at different times, and has different meanings for different people. It is both a real place and it does not exist depending on the context. What it most certainly is not is
- Supreme Deliciousness, speaking as an administrator trying to keep an eye on this discussion, that is POV-pushing, which is disruptive. —valereee (talk) 20:16, 12 December 2020 (UTC)
- Valereee, Really? So its not pov-pushing presenting a highly controversial and disputed nationalist claim with zero historical evidence as a real location in Syria and presenting this as an indisputable fact? Valereee, if I'm not mistaken you said before you didn't have any knowledge in the subject, so you can not possibly know what is pov and what is not pov. --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 08:14, 13 December 2020 (UTC)
- Supreme Deliciousness, I don't need to have knowledge of the subject in order to recognize statements like "Syrian Kurdistan" or "kurdistan" does not exist in Syria as a factual entity, it is only a disputed belief held by some people, and therefor it must be presented as such and Can you really not see how simplistic it is to assert 'Syrian Kurdistan' is a 'place', 'region', or 'area' while ignoring the implications? are POV-pushing. —valereee (talk) 14:56, 13 December 2020 (UTC)
- There has been plenty of sources brought up here that shows my comment to be correct, including by Öcalan himself. But to disregard all of this and only to present the kurdish nationalist narrativ without historical evidence and to present this as an undisputable truth, thats how things should be done? How is that neutral? --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 16:49, 13 December 2020 (UTC)
- SD, I'm not going to get into content, here. What I am telling you is that arguing Syrian Kurdistan simply does not exist because some people dispute the fact is POV-pushing. It's fine to argue that we must include the fact its very existence is disputed if we can find sources the consensus find reliable who are saying that. But arguing that because some dispute it, it must be presented as a "belief" rather than a place is pushing one POV over another. Wherever you are right now is a place, and if enough RS are calling that place by a name -- even if that name isn't an official government designation -- we will have an article on it and call it by that name, even if you don't like it. If you push hard enough to try to argue that's not its name, we will consider that POV-pushing, and we will find that disruptive. —valereee (talk) 19:44, 13 December 2020 (UTC)
- Valereee, Then, that goes both ways, so lets say: "arguing Syrian Kurdistan simply does exist because some people claims it does is POV-pushing. It's fine to argue that we must include the fact its very existence is claimed if we can find sources"... I support having both views inside the article, the current lead is neutral and does that.--Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 08:27, 14 December 2020 (UTC)
- Supreme Deliciousness, I don't think I've seen anyone arguing that the article shouldn't include discussion of dispute. What I'm seeing is argument over how to present it, at what length, and where. I can tell you that if most recent independent scholarly works are referring to something as a place, it's a place. The person you want to be discussing this with is Levivich, who seems to be providing lots of evidence below. What I am telling you is that if you keep insisting none of recent scholarship proves anything, then you are simply here to POV push. —valereee (talk) 12:52, 14 December 2020 (UTC)
- Supreme Deliciousness from my perspective you and Valereee are talking past each other with different concepts of place. We have articles for Iparralde and Hegoalde, North and South Basque Country. These have a great deal of history and you can draw boundaries around them that pretty much everyone would accept. We sort of have an article for Serbian lands, there's are great deal history here, used in context to describe various medieval states. In the '90s this term was used in a much different manner. As you can see from it's actual location and the talk page EN really does not like saying 'Serbian lands', SR more comfortable with it. There's quite a bit of disagreement over some boundaries, you couldn't draw a border that everyone would accept. Maritime Serbia (sr:Српско приморје) is a place, because enough people call it a place, even though most people would say Dalmatia or Upper Dalmatia (it should probably be a redirect because there is not much for content, but it's still a place). We don't need an accepted boundary or any official recognition, we would still talk about Cajun Country regardless of whether the Louisiana Legislature officially recognized 'Acadiana'. All of these are places, because enough people think of them as places. For Syrian Kurdistan, no one can really draw a good boundary, there is not so much history as some other ethnic regions, there are a number of issues with the name which require explanation and careful editing, not the ham-fisted approach above. I understand what you mean when you say it doesn't exist, and that a whole lot of people living in what some here want to say outright is Syrian Kurdistan would not agree, but it is still a place because enough people think of it and write about it as a place. fiveby(zero) 14:26, 14 December 2020 (UTC)
- Fiveby I understand what you are saying, but I think the current lead is really good and represents both povs, and the new suggested leads only represents one side. We can ad more info to the lead but I don't think anything in the lead should be removed. --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 14:37, 14 December 2020 (UTC)
- Term vs. place? In wiki voice, Iranian Kurdistan is an 'unofficial name', Iraqi Kurdistan is a 'part of Kurdistan', Turkish Kurdistan is a 'term', Syrian Kurdistan is now a 'term' but proposed to be a 'Kurdish-inhabited area', French Basque Country is a 'region', Southern Basque Country a 'term'. fiveby(zero) 15:37, 14 December 2020 (UTC)
- Looks to be some degree of how well the boundary can be drawn and how closely it matches some formal place as to whether WP calls it a term/name vs. place/region. I don't know if that is intentional or if that is a good approach or not. fiveby(zero) 16:12, 14 December 2020 (UTC)
- Fiveby I understand what you are saying, but I think the current lead is really good and represents both povs, and the new suggested leads only represents one side. We can ad more info to the lead but I don't think anything in the lead should be removed. --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 14:37, 14 December 2020 (UTC)
- Valereee, Then, that goes both ways, so lets say: "arguing Syrian Kurdistan simply does exist because some people claims it does is POV-pushing. It's fine to argue that we must include the fact its very existence is claimed if we can find sources"... I support having both views inside the article, the current lead is neutral and does that.--Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 08:27, 14 December 2020 (UTC)
- SD, I'm not going to get into content, here. What I am telling you is that arguing Syrian Kurdistan simply does not exist because some people dispute the fact is POV-pushing. It's fine to argue that we must include the fact its very existence is disputed if we can find sources the consensus find reliable who are saying that. But arguing that because some dispute it, it must be presented as a "belief" rather than a place is pushing one POV over another. Wherever you are right now is a place, and if enough RS are calling that place by a name -- even if that name isn't an official government designation -- we will have an article on it and call it by that name, even if you don't like it. If you push hard enough to try to argue that's not its name, we will consider that POV-pushing, and we will find that disruptive. —valereee (talk) 19:44, 13 December 2020 (UTC)
- There has been plenty of sources brought up here that shows my comment to be correct, including by Öcalan himself. But to disregard all of this and only to present the kurdish nationalist narrativ without historical evidence and to present this as an undisputable truth, thats how things should be done? How is that neutral? --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 16:49, 13 December 2020 (UTC)
- Supreme Deliciousness, I don't need to have knowledge of the subject in order to recognize statements like "Syrian Kurdistan" or "kurdistan" does not exist in Syria as a factual entity, it is only a disputed belief held by some people, and therefor it must be presented as such and Can you really not see how simplistic it is to assert 'Syrian Kurdistan' is a 'place', 'region', or 'area' while ignoring the implications? are POV-pushing. —valereee (talk) 14:56, 13 December 2020 (UTC)
- Valereee, Really? So its not pov-pushing presenting a highly controversial and disputed nationalist claim with zero historical evidence as a real location in Syria and presenting this as an indisputable fact? Valereee, if I'm not mistaken you said before you didn't have any knowledge in the subject, so you can not possibly know what is pov and what is not pov. --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 08:14, 13 December 2020 (UTC)
- Levivich Thanks for taking the effort and time to get these quotes from Tejel. As you implied, Tejel represented the Kurdish POV in this "Syrian Kurdistan" concept, which is what we/I have been talking about all the time, i.e., the concept of "Syrian Kurdistan" is a Kurdish irredentist/nationalist imagination (regardless of their political ambition within vs. w/o Syria) pushed forward especially during the Syria civil war power vacuum and the rise of PYD and its military militia (YPG/SDF). As Tejel and many others (McDowall, Balanche, etc.) say rightly, there are Kurdish pockets in Syria, where in a cluster of villages Kurds represent the majority, but never at the level of a province, for example. This is a big difference b/w Kurdish areas in Syria (or "Kurdish enclaves in Northern Syria" as Tejel calls them) and Kurdistan. The main flagrant different is that Kurds are not the majority outside separate clusters of villages, as you said before: Afrin, Kobani, northeastern part of upper Jazira (al-Hasakah Governorate). The second big difference is that most of the Kurdish population here immigrated from Turkey (as discussed elsewhere on this Talk page), according to French mandate statistics and reports, not Syrian, not Baathist, not Arab nationalist, not ISIS, etc. as two users here have falsely claimed before. The third and most important difference, is that there is no historical account that says these enclaves used to be part of a Kurdistan. I echo the concerns of user:Fiveby, that although the term might sound normal, innocent, etc., however, it is charged with political meanings and ambitions that are widespread on Kurdish propaganda websites and repeating this here as if it is neutral would be misleading and wrong, to say the least. Besides some books that use the term and mostly present the Kurdish POV, it's hard to find other third party sources that use the term (e.g., news outlets, states, international organizations, international political figure, etc.). To summarize, it's fine to have the term but we should make it clear that it is mostly used from a Kurdish nationalist POV (which is somewhat implied in the current lead) , and retroactively in most cases. To be followed. Cheers, Amr ibn Kulthoumعمرو بن كلثوم (talk) 01:58, 13 December 2020 (UTC)
- عمرو بن كلثوم, Wikipedia doesn't actually care whether any term is politically charged. We don't care where or with whom the term originated, or whether the people originating it had a political agenda. What we care about is what term the preponderance of recent independent scholarship is using. —valereee (talk) 13:24, 14 December 2020 (UTC)
- We should care a great deal when a term is politically charged, where and with whom the term originated, and about the political agenda, because all that needs to be explained for the reader. fiveby(zero) 15:27, 14 December 2020 (UTC)
- Fiveby, absolutely, such explanations are often appropriate for inclusion in an article, again with reliable sourcing, which in this case means recent scholarly works. My point was that we don't decide whether to even use a term because of any of those things. —valereee (talk) 16:52, 14 December 2020 (UTC)
- We should care a great deal when a term is politically charged, where and with whom the term originated, and about the political agenda, because all that needs to be explained for the reader. fiveby(zero) 15:27, 14 December 2020 (UTC)
- عمرو بن كلثوم, Wikipedia doesn't actually care whether any term is politically charged. We don't care where or with whom the term originated, or whether the people originating it had a political agenda. What we care about is what term the preponderance of recent independent scholarship is using. —valereee (talk) 13:24, 14 December 2020 (UTC)
- I do not understand what you mean by "factual entity". "Syrian Kurdistan" isn't a belief, it's a place. It's not an imaginary or fictional place like Atlantis: Afrin, Kobani, and Jazira are real places on Earth. Levivich harass/hound 19:06, 12 December 2020 (UTC)
- "Syrian Kurdistan" or "kurdistan" does not exist in Syria as a factual entity, it is only a disputed belief held by some people, and therefor it must be presented as such.--Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 18:18, 12 December 2020 (UTC)
- The way I read both mine and Attar's revision, they say that Syrian Kurdistan is part of Syria (a sovereign state), and part of Kurdistan (a geographic area, but not a sovereign state). So I don't think anyone reading that would think that Syrian Kurdistan is land that legally belongs to the Kurds, as opposed to land that legally belongs to Syria where Kurds live. ("Land of the Kurds" could mean either Kurdish-owned or Kurdish-inhabited.) That said, would it change your mind if the paragraph was more explicit that Syria is a sovereign state and Kurdistan is not? (This is the reason I had included some sentences about history in my original draft: to explain that Kurdistan is not a sovereign state. I wonder if a second paragraph about history would make the first paragraph clearer, as it were.) Levivich harass/hound 17:20, 12 December 2020 (UTC)
- Thanks Attar and Levivich for your attempts. However, with all due respect, I think the current lead, developed by Applodion after discussions on the Talk page, better describes the issue at hand. It is not a universally accepted terms. I can come up with hundreds of sources that refer to the area by "Kurdish-inhabited region in Syria". Simply presenting the area as "Syrian Kurdistan" means that the majority of the population, which are non-Kurdish, are living on the land of Kurds, not on their own land. This is simply "adopting" the narrative of the Kurdish nationalists. Thanks. Amr ibn Kulthoumعمرو بن كلثوم (talk) 17:11, 12 December 2020 (UTC)
- Couldn't agree more with Fiveby. Presenting something the is the pure imagination of nationalist claims as an undisputed facts has no place on an encyclopedia. Again, it's fine with me to use the term, and Levivich is showing enough notability for the term, but most of the quotes above, if not all, come from pro-Kurdish authors, so the context is even more important than the term itself, especially if we take into account that most Syrian Kurds originated in Turkey.
The majority of the Kurds in Syria are originally Turkish Kurds, who left Turkey in the 1920s in order to escape the harsh repression of the Kurds in that country. These
Kurds were later joined in Syria by a new large group that drifted out of Turkey throughout the interwar period during which the Turkish campaign to assimilate its Kurdish population was at it highest.[1]
This is like the population of Algerian descent in Marseille claiming that southern France is Northern Algeria. People can claim anything, but we have to attribute claims to their original authors. I am seeing a consensus developing around this, am I wrong? Cheers, Amr ibn Kulthoumعمرو بن كلثوم (talk) 16:46, 14 December 2020 (UTC)
- If there are any specific authors/editors/publishers/works that anyone thinks are not reliable and should be excluded, it should be taken up at WP:RSN. I disagree that there is really any such thing as "pro-Kurdish" or even "pro-Syrian Kurdish"... Kurds and even Syrian Kurds do not all have one viewpoint/opinion on anything... if there is one thing that everybody agrees on, it's that's Kurds do not agree on any one thing. I also disagree that any of the authors are "pro-Kurdish" or biased in a way that impugns their reliability, but I could be wrong about that. If we want to exclude authors/works from consideration, that probably needs consensus at RSN. Otherwise, we have to summarize the reliable sources even if we think they're pro-Kurdish. Levivich harass/hound 19:19, 14 December 2020 (UTC)
The history paragraph
In the previous #Dec 12 lead paragraph draft section the question was asked if the history I wrote in the draft can be verified, and I think yes it can, but to reduce the text and scope of discussion, I want to list out the separate parts and ask which parts exactly are [citation needed] and which parts are uncontroversial:
- The first 4 are taken from the article Kurdistan
- The word 'Kurdistan', which translates as 'Land of the Kurds', is first attested in 11th century Seljuk chronicles
- In the tenth and eleventh centuries, several Kurdish principalities emerged in Central Asia
- Kurdistan in the Middle Ages was a collection of semi-independent and independent emirates
- In the 16th century, after prolonged wars, Kurdish-inhabited areas were split between the Safavid and Ottoman empires
- The rest are "new" (Levivich's summary)
- What is now the modern state of Syria used to be part of the Ottoman Empire (Ottoman Syria)
- What is now the geographic area called "Kurdistan" used to be part of the Ottoman Empire
- The three areas "Afrin, Kobani, and Jazira" (more accurately described as "areas near/around Afrin, Kobani, and northern Jazira") used to be part of the Ottoman Empire
- After World War I, the Ottoman Empire was partitioned
- The three areas (Afrin, Kobani, and Jazira) became part of the French Mandate for Syria
- Other parts of Kurdistan were divided between Turkey, the British Mandate for Iraq (now Iraq), Persia (now Iran), and the Soviet Union (now parts of Armenia and Azerbaijan)
- After World War II, the French Mandate for Syria eventually became the modern state of Syria, including the three areas (Afrin, Kobani, and Jazira)
- In 2011, the Syrian Civil War began
- In 2012, Kurdish militia gained control of at least parts of Afrin, Kobani, and Jazira
- In 2014, Afrin Canton, Kobani Canton, and Jazira Canton were declared autonomous under the Constitution of the Autonomous Administration of North and East Syria (AANES)
- In 2016, a new constitution was formed for AANES, reorganizing the Cantons into Afrin Region, Euphrates Region, and Jazira Region, plus 4 other regions in northern Syria
- Since 2016, Turkish occupation of northern Syria, including Afrin and parts of Euphrates Region
I'm of course not suggesting all of this should be in the lead. I am curious what people think is accurate/not accurate, neutral/not neutral, complete/incomplete, etc., and which parts are important enough to mention in the lead section (any paragraph). We can then "go to the sources" on the parts in dispute and start drafting maybe a second paragraph for the lead on history. Levivich harass/hound 19:01, 12 December 2020 (UTC)
- A quick response here. The Kurdistan page is a can of worms on its own, which will need some attention from the larger community, but that's besides the point for now. I agree with all the points mentioned above except for 7, 9, 15 and 16. For point #7, the Jazira area was grazing land used mostly for Arab tribes to herd their sheep (I have provided sources and maps earlier on this page and can do that again), so it was not even a Kurdish enclave at all. Consequently, the same observation is valid for no. 9. No. 10 is debatable, but outside my interest for now. No. 11 is the same as 7 and 9 above, this is projecting retroactively given the demographic changes that happened after WWI and the establishment of the Turkey-Syria border. No. 15, this is adopting the narrative of a Syrian civil war belligerent making claims of administrative divisions that in principle are not different from ISIL claiming their Al-Barakah province. These Kurdish administrative claims included large swaths of overwhelmingly Arab areas (Raqqa, Tel Abyad, Manbij, Tel Rifaat, etc.), so have no value from a Kurdish claims standpoint. No. 16, Turkey has not attacked Kobani. Cheers, Amr ibn Kulthoumعمرو بن كلثوم (talk) 02:16, 13 December 2020 (UTC)
- @عمرو بن كلثوم: Quick response to your quick response: if the word "enclave" was removed from #7, #9, and #11... so it just said Afrin/Kobani/Jazira was part of Ottoman Empire, then French Mandate, then Syria... would you agree? All I mean to say is that those three geographic locations were part of Ottoman Empire, then French Mandate, then Syria (regardless of who lived there or what they were at the various times... just talking about those geographic latitudes and longitudes). Levivich harass/hound 02:21, 13 December 2020 (UTC)
- Yes, you are definitely right. These areas were all part of the Ottoman empire, regardless of who lived there. Cheers, Amr ibn Kulthoumعمرو بن كلثوم (talk) 03:08, 13 December 2020 (UTC)
- OK I changed "enclaves" to "areas". Also I reworded #16 and added links. Levivich harass/hound 03:34, 13 December 2020 (UTC)
- Yes, you are definitely right. These areas were all part of the Ottoman empire, regardless of who lived there. Cheers, Amr ibn Kulthoumعمرو بن كلثوم (talk) 03:08, 13 December 2020 (UTC)
- @عمرو بن كلثوم: Quick response to your quick response: if the word "enclave" was removed from #7, #9, and #11... so it just said Afrin/Kobani/Jazira was part of Ottoman Empire, then French Mandate, then Syria... would you agree? All I mean to say is that those three geographic locations were part of Ottoman Empire, then French Mandate, then Syria (regardless of who lived there or what they were at the various times... just talking about those geographic latitudes and longitudes). Levivich harass/hound 02:21, 13 December 2020 (UTC)
- There's a whole lot between #'s 11 and 12 that i think would be appropriate for the reader, pan-Arabism, Ba'ath Party, Iraqi Kurdistan, etc., but to me much of the history content is written as attempting to legitimize or de-legitimize the name, ending up with silly content such as the paragraph about 'west Kurdistan'. I think the article should be about how Kurds think and feel about the place, acknowledge the perspective and then describe it. fiveby(zero) 18:26, 14 December 2020 (UTC)
- Yeah there's like 65 years of relevant history between 11 and 12. I'm afraid it might take us 65 years to agree on a summary of it. :-) Levivich harass/hound 18:46, 14 December 2020 (UTC)
"Syrian Kurdistan"
"Syrian Kurdistan" table
Author | Date | Title | Publisher | Quotes |
---|---|---|---|---|
Jordi Tejel | 2020 | "The Complex and Dynamic Relationship of Syria's Kurds with Syrian Borders: Continuities and Changes" in Matthieu Cimino, ed. Syria: Borders, Boundaries, and the State | Springer |
|
Güneş Murat Tezcür, ed. | 2020 | A Century of Kurdish Politics: Citizenship, Statehood and Diplomacy | T&F | ...in 2012, a fracturing of the central state in Syria gave rise to a system of local self-government in this Kurdistan region. Thus, in both southern (Iraqi) Kurdistan (Basur) and western (Syrian) Kurdistan (Rojava) the weakness of the central power enabled new entities to emerge. The aims of the Kurdish actors and the nature of the entities that emerged, however, differed greatly. The Kurdistan region in Iraq today can be considered a proto-state or statelet, while the Kurdistan region in Syria is quite different, with a self-identity, political system and further aspirations toward a non-statist, confederated form of locally based self-administration.(Introduction) |
Massoud Sharifi Dryaz [17] | 2020 | "Non-State Actors and Governance: Kurdish Autonomy in Syria" in David Romano, Mehmet Gurses, and Michael Gunter, eds., The Kurds in the Middle East: Enduring Problems and New Dynamics | Lexington Books |
|
Sirwan Kajjo [18] [19] | 2019 | "Syrian Kurds: Rising from the Ashes of Persecution" in Hilly Moodrick-Even Khen, Nir T. Boms & Sareta Ashraph, eds., The Syrian War: Between Justice and Political Reality | Cambridge |
|
Various authors | 2018 | Sebastian Maisel, ed., The Kurds: An Encyclopedia of Life, Culture, and Society | ABC-Clio | (authorship of chapters is not always available via free preview but the list of contributors to this book is available on Amazon's free preview, p. 365 [link is on the table of contents]; pages not linked to Google previews are viewable on Amazon's free preview, search for "Syrian Kurdistan" and use the results list)
|
Various authors | 2018 | Michael Gunter, ed., Routledge Handbook on the Kurds | T&F | (The free preview has no page numbers, this is from multiple chapters by multiple contributors) Modern Kurdish poetry in Syrian Kurdistan in the first place represents itself in Cigerxwin's (1903-1984) poetry. His revolutionary poems have inspired the masses, especially in western and northern Kurdistan. Some other Kurdish poets from Syrian Kurdistan, such as Jan Dost, Ahmad Hosseini and Axin Welat, have published their poems in exile ... Likewise the novels published by Kurdish novelists from Syrian Kurdistan, such as Halim Yusifand Jan Dost... By the same token, Syria relinquished part of its sovereignty, particularly in its relations with the PKK. Physically, PKK's militants took de facto control over a few small portions of Syrian territory, notably in Kurd Dagh...portraits of Ocalan and Barzani replaced those of Hafiz al-Assad...The most obvious political consequence of these dynamics was the adoption by some Kurdish parties of the expression "Syrian Kurdistan" or "Rojava", referring to Northern Syria, as opposed to the moderate, "Kurdish regions of Syria". |
Brendan O'Leary | 2018 | The Kurds, the Four Wolves, and the Great Powers (PDF) | The Journal of Politics |
|
Harriet Allsopp | 2016 | The Kurds of Syria: Political Parties and Identity in the Middle East | Bloomsbury | The idea that the KDP was seeking influence amongst the Syrian Kurds and in a post-Assad 'Kurdistan Region of Syria' was raised in several reports. Analysists explained the part played by Barzani in terms of an attempt to make a bid for leadership of the pan-Kurdish nation. This prompted some to suggest that Syrian Kurdistan had become an arena for PKK-KDP cooperation. Any power struggle between the two parties could result in the split of the region between the two spheres of influence, increasing inter-Kurdish conflict and limiting the influence of the KDP to Syria's eastern Kurdish regions. |
David L. Phillips | 2015 | The Kurdish Spring: A New Map of the Middle East | Transaction Publishers | France divided its mandate into six entities ... Syria's population was about three-quarters Arab. The balance included minorities such as Kurds ... Kurds were the largest ethnic minority in Syria. Kurds reside on a patchwork of territories, which they call Rojava. Syrian Kurdistan encompasses regions in northern Syria such as Kobani, near Jarablus, and Afrin, whose plains extend to the Turkish border. Kurds predominate in Jazira province, Hasakah Governorate, and the cities of Qamishli and Hasakah. There are also Kurds in Syria's northeast.(p. 38) |
Michael Gunter | 2014 | Out of Nowhere: The Kurds of Syria in Peace and War | Hurst |
|
Robert Lowe | 2014 | "The Emergence of Western Kurdistan and the Future of Syria" in David Romano, Mehmet Gurses (eds.), Conflict, Democratization, and the Kurds in the Middle East | Palgrave Macmillan | (see also Amazon preview)
|
Discussion of "Syrian Kurdistan"
- I bolded "Syrian Kurdistan" in the quotes. The above is not an exhaustive list, please feel free to add to it. I only included post-2011 sources from academic publishers (modern scholarship). I didn't list Izady, although he uses the term. Granted, not every source from an academic publisher in this time period uses the term, but I think enough do to support calling "Syrian Kurdistan" the Kurdish-inhabited areas of northern Syria. Levivich harass/hound 07:01, 13 December 2020 (UTC)
- Are you proposing that be the entire scope of the article, "Kurdish-inhabited areas of northern Syria"? No doubt that is how the term is sometimes used and understood in context. Let me ask this way, are you choosing a title and thereby defining the topic and scope, or choosing the scope and topic (Kurdish-inhabited areas of northern Syria) and then placing at the most appropriate title? fiveby(zero) 17:16, 13 December 2020 (UTC)
- I don't really understand what you're asking. I'm not proposing anything, and I'm neither choosing nor defining the title or the scope. The title is "Syrian Kurdistan" and I assume the scope is "Syrian Kurdistan" and I don't believe this is in dispute? The point of this table is to collect quotes from modern scholarship using the term "Syrian Kurdistan" (mostly to rebut arguments that either this term is not in widespread use, or it's only used by nationalists, or it's only used to refer to an idea and not a place). Levivich harass/hound 17:24, 13 December 2020 (UTC)
- Are you proposing that be the entire scope of the article, "Kurdish-inhabited areas of northern Syria"? No doubt that is how the term is sometimes used and understood in context. Let me ask this way, are you choosing a title and thereby defining the topic and scope, or choosing the scope and topic (Kurdish-inhabited areas of northern Syria) and then placing at the most appropriate title? fiveby(zero) 17:16, 13 December 2020 (UTC)
- Thanks Levivich for the huge effort of putting these together. Now, reading you last sentence, do you feel the quotes achieve the objectives you listed? To me, they clearly portray "Syrian Kurdistan" from the Kurdish nationalist perspective, hence support what we are talking/concerned about. As for the widespread use, I have listed below other names for the areas with their google hits:
- "Kurdish region" and "Syria": About 245,000 results
- "Kurdish area" and "Syria": About 44,400 results
- "Kurdish inhabited" and "Syria": About 10,700 results
- "Syrian Kurdistan": About 78,400 results
Also, below are some major news outlets and the term they use for the area with examples:
- CNN: Kurdish region.
Syria grants citizenship to thousands in the Kurdish region
[2] - BBC: Kurdish region.
On our way to Qamishli, the largest Kurdish city in northern Syria, we see a US military convoy escorted by fighter jets heading east towards the Iraqi border. They are leaving the Kurdish region.
[3] - Reuters:
Border between Iraqi Kurdistan and Syrian Kurdish region closed...
[4] - NYT:
A recent trip by a reporter through the Kurdish area of Syria revealed ...
[5] - WP:
The Kurdish area of Syria is relatively secure ...
[6] - WSJ:
The Kurdish region of Syria ...
[7] - Al-Jazeera:
Kurdish areas of Syria ...
[8]
I realize there could be other names (e.g., "east of Euphrates" getting >115,000 hits). Given these results, I think we should have a discussion about the common name for the area per WP:COMMONNAME. Cheers, Amr ibn Kulthoumعمرو بن كلثوم (talk) 01:55, 14 December 2020 (UTC)
- The Google results or "hits" are unreliable for the reasons explained in WP:HITS (those numbers of results at the top of the search results page are not accurate). Popular press is OK to cite for breaking news, but it's not as reliable as scholarship (and really not very reliable at all); because scholarship is available for this topic, we should use scholarship and not news outlets. Specifically, modern scholarship, i.e. post-2011, the newer, the better. Ultimately, this article should be summarizing what scholars say about the topic in 2020. So I have no problem with a discussion about common name, this article title, or even a broader discussion about how all of these related articles are titled and arranged, but I think all content discussions around this topic should be based on modern scholarship first and older scholarship second. Top-level news (like you've listed: BBC, NYT, etc.) should only be used for any recent events not yet covered by scholarship. Levivich harass/hound 06:28, 14 December 2020 (UTC)
- Would you please focus on topic. The constant change of direction and inability to come to an end of at least one the discussions begun since the lock of the page is confusing for us and probably also for the not so much involved admins who are the only ones who can edit the page now and of which we probably have lost Girth Summit. We (at least I) would all like to get to an end of the dispute and the page was created only a few months ago by an other Admin.Paradise Chronicle (talk) 07:53, 14 December 2020 (UTC)
- Paradise Chronicle, are you replying to Levivich? —valereee (talk) 13:10, 14 December 2020 (UTC)
- The Edit summary says answer to Amr Ibn.Paradise Chronicle (talk) 23:40, 14 December 2020 (UTC)
- Paradise Chronicle, yes, but the indent says answer to Levivich. :) —valereee (talk) 12:14, 15 December 2020 (UTC)
- The Edit summary says answer to Amr Ibn.Paradise Chronicle (talk) 23:40, 14 December 2020 (UTC)
- Paradise Chronicle, are you replying to Levivich? —valereee (talk) 13:10, 14 December 2020 (UTC)
- Would you please focus on topic. The constant change of direction and inability to come to an end of at least one the discussions begun since the lock of the page is confusing for us and probably also for the not so much involved admins who are the only ones who can edit the page now and of which we probably have lost Girth Summit. We (at least I) would all like to get to an end of the dispute and the page was created only a few months ago by an other Admin.Paradise Chronicle (talk) 07:53, 14 December 2020 (UTC)
References
- ^ Storm, Lise (2005). "Ethnonational Minorities in the Middle East Berbers, Kurds, and Palestinians". A Companion to the History of the Middle East. Utrecht: Wiley-Blackwell. p. 475. ISBN 1-4051-0681-6.
- ^ https://www.cnn.com/2014/08/18/world/kurdish-people-fast-facts/index.html
- ^ https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-50181855
- ^ https://fr.reuters.com/article/mideast-crisis-kurds-border-idINKCN0WJ08A
- ^ https://www.nytimes.com/2013/08/02/world/middleeast/syria.html
- ^ https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/middle_east/desperate-iraqi-yazidis-flee-into-syria-after-kurdish-forces-secure-escape-route/2014/08/08/817a17ad-233a-4ee9-935e-820eb53594e4_story.html
- ^ https://www.wsj.com/articles/kurds-with-u-s-aid-push-to-take-mosul-dam-1408322338
- ^ https://studies.aljazeera.net/ar/node/1262
- Levivich: In the Savelsberg quote you added above, I read: "For example, the Kurdish Democratic Party of Syria favors a full federal state and in the summer of 2012 began using the term Syrian Kurdistan for the first time". This is what this discussion is all about. The PYD/Kurdish narrative is/has been the driving force of this "Syrian Kurdistan" term. As long as we include this fact in the article I am happy with anything you suggest. Cheers, Amr ibn Kulthoumعمرو بن كلثوم (talk) 22:52, 14 December 2020 (UTC)
- Levivich Eva Savelsberg is not a good source, but others are. Amr Ibn and I were involved in long discussions about KurdWatch, which Amr Ibn defended (an article Amr Ibn created) and for which she was the "content manager", at the Tell Abyad page. She attends Forums organized by the SETA and listen how she talks about freedom of press in the AANES.[1] Press outlets can report from within the AANES and many reliable press outlets also have. Once again, the article is not about a recognized political entity Syrian Kurdistan, but a cultural region called Syrian Kurdistan in which of course are also active Kurdish political parties and movements.Paradise Chronicle (talk) 01:36, 15 December 2020 (UTC)
- Eva Svalsberg's role has been to talk about human right violations by all parties, including Kurdish militias. I wonder whether that's enough reason for you to say "she is not a good source". Most (maybe all?) of the other sources mentioned in the list are pro-Kurdish anyway, so it's nice to have some diversity. The same issues Eva talks about were also raised by HRW, Amnesty, Roy Gutman, Fabrice Balanche, The Washington Institute for Near East Policy, and many others including countless respected media reports, so she is not an outlier. Amr ibn Kulthoumعمرو بن كلثوم (talk) 05:23, 15 December 2020 (UTC)
- A few thoughts:
- I saw Svalsberg is Chair of the European Center for Kurdish Studies at Free University of Berlin (FUB). Otherwise, I am not at all familiar with her so I have no opinion on her reliability as a source.
- The quote "the Kurdish Democratic Party of Syria favors a full federal state and in the summer of 2012 began using the term Syrian Kurdistan for the first time" is from Robert Lowe's chapter in that 2014 book, not Svalsberg's chapter.
- For what it's worth, Balanche 2018 (published by WINEP) uses "Syrian Kurdistan" multiple times (mostly talking about possible scenarios for political states or statelets in the region), including in a section called "Syrian Kurdistan under the PYD".
- In my view, scholarship published by universities is more reliable than papers by think tanks/advocacy organizations (with a few exceptions, like Pew Research Center), but I'm not sure if that's just my view or if that view has consensus. Also, I think academics are more reliable than journalists (with some exceptions as well, of course). Levivich harass/hound 05:51, 15 December 2020 (UTC)
- Levivich, pretty sure in general even the most reliable advocacy groups should be both directly quoted and attributed and only for supporting their own opinions. One high-profile example: Southern Poverty Law Center. RSNP says The Southern Poverty Law Center is considered generally reliable on topics related to hate groups and extremism in the United States. As an advocacy group, the SPLC is a biased and opinionated source. The organization's views, especially when labeling hate groups, should be attributed per WP:RSOPINION. —valereee (talk) 12:21, 15 December 2020 (UTC)
- Eva Svalsberg's role has been to talk about human right violations by all parties, including Kurdish militias. I wonder whether that's enough reason for you to say "she is not a good source". Most (maybe all?) of the other sources mentioned in the list are pro-Kurdish anyway, so it's nice to have some diversity. The same issues Eva talks about were also raised by HRW, Amnesty, Roy Gutman, Fabrice Balanche, The Washington Institute for Near East Policy, and many others including countless respected media reports, so she is not an outlier. Amr ibn Kulthoumعمرو بن كلثوم (talk) 05:23, 15 December 2020 (UTC)
- Levivich Eva Savelsberg is not a good source, but others are. Amr Ibn and I were involved in long discussions about KurdWatch, which Amr Ibn defended (an article Amr Ibn created) and for which she was the "content manager", at the Tell Abyad page. She attends Forums organized by the SETA and listen how she talks about freedom of press in the AANES.[1] Press outlets can report from within the AANES and many reliable press outlets also have. Once again, the article is not about a recognized political entity Syrian Kurdistan, but a cultural region called Syrian Kurdistan in which of course are also active Kurdish political parties and movements.Paradise Chronicle (talk) 01:36, 15 December 2020 (UTC)
References
edit issue?
This edit did something to the page -- lost sections, not sure how. Can anyone figure it out? —valereee (talk) 17:01, 14 December 2020 (UTC)
- weirdly, I can see it in vis ed, just not in source. —valereee (talk) 17:09, 14 December 2020 (UTC)
- عمرو بن كلثوم, it was an edit of yours -- maybe try reverting yourself, then try again? —valereee (talk) 17:16, 14 December 2020 (UTC)
- Fixed. It was a missing / in a closing </ref>. Levivich harass/hound 17:22, 14 December 2020 (UTC)
- عمرو بن كلثوم, it was an edit of yours -- maybe try reverting yourself, then try again? —valereee (talk) 17:16, 14 December 2020 (UTC)
Dec 12 lead paragraph draft follow up discussion
Levivich and Attar-Aram syria have made a large effort for finding a lead and their co-production here seems to have found the best reasonable feedback so far. It's the version of Attar Aram syria with the "as" deleted before one of the four "Lesser Kurdistans".
Syrian Kurdistan is a Kurdish-inhabited area in northern Syria surrounding three noncontiguous enclaves along the Turkish and Iraqi borders: Afrin in the northwest, Kobani in the north, and Jazira in the northeast. Syrian Kurdistan is sometimes called Western Kurdistan (Kurdish: Rojava Kurdistanê, lit. 'Kurdistan where the sun sets'), one of the four "Lesser Kurdistans" that comprise "Greater Kurdistan", alongside Iranian Kurdistan (Kurdish: Rojhilatê Kurdistanê, lit. 'Kurdistan where the sun rises'), Turkish Kurdistan (Kurdish: Bakurê Kurdistanê, lit. 'Northern Kurdistan'), and Iraqi Kurdistan (Kurdish: Başûrê Kurdistanê, lit. 'Southern Kurdistan').
Does anyone have some improvements to add to this lead?The following discussion was mixed with confusing edits for a solution finding process, so I begin a new discussion.Paradise Chronicle (talk) 10:58, 17 December 2020 (UTC)
- This suggested text is one sided and not neutral and does not take into consideration the sources that disputes the claim that a Kurdistan exists in Syria.--Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 13:28, 17 December 2020 (UTC)