Talk:Illuminati

Conspiracy theory

An editor has objected to the inclusion of the term "conspiracy theorists" in this section, on the grounds that the term is "biased". Please discuss. Blueboar (talk) 12:43, 9 June 2017 (UTC)

• I think that this is an accurate and appropriate term to use in this context. The overwhelming majority of those who say that the Illuminati still exist, do so in the context of discussing various conspiracies. It is not biased to describe those who believe in a conspiracy as being "conspiracy theorists"... it is the literal definition of that term. Blueboar (talk) 12:43, 9 June 2017 (UTC)

Absolutely support. Conspiracy theorist is more encyclopedic than nutter, but most of the survival myth was, I believe, constructed to make money out of gullible people. I have my own words, all of which would result in an editorial ban. Fiddlersmouth (talk) 23:06, 9 June 2017 (UTC)

"The Illuminati did not survive their suppression in Bavaria..." - the officially titled group may not have, and everyone may have even gone their separate ways. But if you're meaning that all of their ideas, concepts, and beliefs died the minute it happened and didn't carry forward with any of them, then I have to say THAT is a WILD theory full of naivete at best, intellectual dishonesty at worst. - Anon, 15:15, 22 January 2021 (UTC)

Is this the primary scope?

"In subsequent use, "Illuminati" refers to various organisations which claim or are purported to have links to the original Bavarian Illuminati or similar secret societies, though these links are unsubstantiated."

Almost certainly the most notable and recognizable use of "Illuminati" in modern times is either as part of a conspiracy theory or as generic secretive world order used in fiction (e.g. Deus Ex). I fail to see how these supposed organisations claiming to be descended from the actual Illuminati have a higher notability (or ANY, for that matter) than the ones alleged to exist in conspiracy theories and fiction. I know I've never heard of them, and I doubt anyone - perhaps not even the groups themselves - would take it seriously. Bataaf van Oranje (Prinsgezinde) (talk) 21:57, 7 August 2017 (UTC)

You may not have heard of these groups.... but they do exist. And while their claims to be continuations or recreations of the Bavarian Illuminati may well be bogus, that is the claim that they make. Blueboar (talk) 22:11, 7 August 2017 (UTC)

Blueboar, don't revert something when clear reason has been given for its removal. Two of the links I deleted were literally expired meaning whoever registered them could no longer be bothered with it, while the third denounced their claim of being an "Illuminati". You may want them to be, but using outdated sources to support a claim is extremely misleading. Also please read WP:NOTABILITY. Not everything that is written down should be on Wikipedia. Some unknown fraternity claiming to be related to the Illuminati is certainly one of these cases. Bataaf van Oranje (Prinsgezinde) (talk) 22:18, 7 August 2017 (UTC)

Bataaf van Oranje (Prinsgezinde) Don't revert when you have been reverted. Use the talk page first. The reason is not clear. Even if it was, you are still edit warring. Fiddlersmouth (talk) 23:30, 7 August 2017 (UTC)

I was of the opinion that Blueboar missed the point of my deletion of the expired/redacted sources, which was quite uncontroversial as there is no point in using sources that have lost their only value. My stance of their relevance wasn't related to that. But you're right, it does count as edit warring. Bataaf van Oranje (Prinsgezinde) (talk) 11:40, 10 August 2017 (UTC)

Prinsgezind, your concern about the expired links is somewhat valid (It is possible that some of these groups may have shit down since the article was written, and so I will see if the groups have updated websites before I restore).

As for your concern about WP:Notability, I don't need to read it, as I helped write it. That guideline only applies to the question of whether something merits having an entire article devoted to it... not whether it should be mentioned (in passing) in a related article. I would agree that these modern fraternal groups do not merit there own stand alone articles... but they certainly merit a passing (one sentence) mention in this article...if only so readers understand the difference between a) the historical order, b) these real modern groups (which either pretend to have a direct link to the historical group, or pretend to be a recreation of it) and c) the paranoid imaginings of conspiracy theorists. Blueboar (talk) 00:08, 8 August 2017 (UTC)

@Blueboar: You're also right there, I actually linked the wrong policy. I was thinking of Verifiability does not guarantee inclusion. This, though, was to justify my edit to the lead. I don't think expired sources (not broken or archived ones, mind you) are of any value when discussiong the present-day situation. But my other point was that while it's related to the subject and can be found online, the relevance of the existence of such fringe groups is very low. If we are to include information on groups that personally identify with the Illuminati, do we also include information on groups that say they're fighting the Illuminati? Because that's a rabbit hole I don't think would lead to very appropriate encyclopedic material. And that's just assuming they can be properly verified, as it would likely require resorting to the use of more self-published sources (such as the ones formerly provided) that are in no way reliable. Even as proof of existence it looks like a red flag to me:

• "challenged claims that are supported purely by primary or self-published sources or those with an apparent conflict of interest"
• "claims that are contradicted by the prevailing view within the relevant community, or that would significantly alter mainstream assumptions, especially in science, medicine, history, politics, and biographies of living people. This is especially true when proponents say there is a conspiracy to silence them."

Ding ding on both. I'm of the same opinion that the distinction between the actual historical group and the modern cultural/conspirational/fictional forms should be clearly distinguished, but what place do these fringe claims have in it? Bataaf van Oranje (Prinsgezinde) (talk) 11:40, 10 August 2017 (UTC)

re: "do we also include information on groups that say they're fighting the Illuminati?"... nope. The topic of this article is a historical fraternal order... it is "on topic" to mention (in passing) that there are modern groups that claim to be a continuation (or recreation) of that historical order... but to mention modern opposition groups takes us "off topic". Blueboar (talk) 12:00, 10 August 2017 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 30 August 2017

The illuminati is the devil 66.87.64.174 (talk) 15:02, 30 August 2017 (UTC)

 Not done Request invalid on a variety of grounds. Ian.thomson (talk) 15:15, 30 August 2017 (UTC)

18th Century Pagans?

"Christians of good character were actively sought, with Jews and pagans specifically excluded, along with women, monks, and members of other secret societies."

Is there a source for their being pagans in 18th Century Bavaria? I find it rather hard to believe, as fascinating as it would be if true.

My guess is that the word comes from one of the cited sources... note that back in the 18th and 19th century the word "pagan" had a fairly broad meaning, and was commonly used in reference to anyone who was not a Christian (or a Jew?). Blueboar (talk) 12:19, 28 October 2017 (UTC)

It comes directly from the confiscated Bavarian Illuminati documents; INSTRUCTIO PRO RECIPIENTIBUS, specifically: "Jews, pagans, women, monks, and members of other secret orders" were prohibited from joining. In 18th century enlightenment nomenclature the term pagan could equally apply to a muslim a confucianist or what today we'd term an occultist. Basically if you weren't jewish, christian or an atheist, 'pagan' covers everything else. XDev (talk) 17:27, 27 September 2018 (UTC)

Minor grammar edit to page

In the very last sentence under the 'in popular culture' section it says "Foucault's Pendulum by Umberto Eco and ." Can someone either get rid of the "and" or add in the other author (if there is any). Phishcat (talk) 21:03, 3 December 2017 (UTC)

Done Blueboar (talk) 21:08, 3 December 2017 (UTC)

Thanks :) Phishcat (talk) 03:12, 4 December 2017 (UTC)

Bill Cipher from Gravity Falls is based on the Illuminati.

He should be added on the Popular Culture page. Galefuun (talk) 18:03, 9 February 2018 (UTC)

I have requested a citation for that. (also... I think it too trivial to mention, but that is another issue). Blueboar (talk) 22:24, 9 February 2018 (UTC)

Origins in 1960s - new source

This in-depth BBC piece chronicles the deliberate fabrication of the Illuminati myth in the 1960s counter-culture, with reference to published works. Among other important aspects, it says that the 18th-century events are more or less unrelated to the modern tale. I have not yet incorportated any of this: The accidental invention of the Illuminati conspiracy. Onanoff (talk) 09:18, 9 June 2018 (UTC)

Robert Anton Wilson and Discordian literature has indeed contributed toward the myth, but they in turn had embellished upon real sources. The John Birch society, for instance, as well as the writings of Nesta Webster and Lady Queensborough. This tradition was concerned with the Master Conspiracy thesis that an overarching secret society was behind all major incidents since the French Revolution. And they had sources as well: John Robison and Abbe Barruel. It's really an unbroken tradition that goes back to the last two authors who were contemporaries of the Illuminati in the 18th century. In different eras there were varying levels of popularity, but it was always there lurking and publishing material for centuries - material that Wilson et al. made great use of.XDev (talk) 14:32, 9 June 2018 (UTC)

I wanna know if this thing exist or not. Cddkx (talk) 14:00, 9 August 2018 (UTC)

Read the article... it existed for a short time back in the 1700s. Not today. Blueboar (talk) 15:16, 9 August 2018 (UTC)

Gradal

I have no idea 'gradal' is -- if it is, indeed, a word -- nor what it's supposed to mean. Not removing it because I don't know what to replace it with. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 205.207.104.228 (talk) 19:02, 14 January 2019 (UTC)

A system of conferred degrees/grades: gradal system. Put it into quotes and search for its historical context if you are not aware; it's the foundation of Freemasonry and other initiatic societies.XDev (talk) 03:58, 15 January 2019 (UTC)

Hmmm... While I understand what a "gradal system" is supposed to mean, this query caused me to look further... and I can not find it in any dictionary. I also did as XDev suggests (I put it into quotes and searched for it in a historical context) and did not find it. So... I have tweaked the sentence, so those who are not already familiar with the topic will better understand. Blueboar (talk) 13:07, 15 January 2019 (UTC)

To add to "see also"

• Freemasonry (founded 1701), Isaac Newton, Albert Pike, Illuminati
• International Bankers, Bank of England, Seven Years' War, Rothschild family
• Karl Marx, Communist International
• Vladimir Lenin, Joseph Stalin, Soviet Union
• Leon Trotsky, Trotskyism

--188.171.58.80 (talk) 13:36, 4 October 2019 (UTC)

 Not done The majority of those are completely unrelated to those paying attention to reality instead of brainwashing themselves with conspiracy theorist delusions. Ian.thomson (talk) 13:55, 4 October 2019 (UTC)

Illuminati in Africa

Well so. those who have Africa experience, the most probable translation of Illuminati is "Cindle, ignite", "set fire to" meaning hammer and pick. I am experienced and from my point of view there is nothing else to say about it. Wikistallion (talk) 15:12, 22 January 2020 (UTC)

Unfortunately, your own experience is not enough... wikipedia’s policies require us to base what we write in our articles on reliable (Published) sources. So unless there are reliable sources that talk about the Illuminati in relation to Africa, we can not say anything about it. Thanks for sharing, however. Blueboar (talk) 20:38, 22 January 2020 (UTC)

one can BTW find an evidence by name. not Africa. ignateamus bubus actually, i ignite the ppl. thats very similar to the name of some generally known celebrity. Wikistallion (talk) 15:51, 19 January 2021 (UTC)

Illuminati translates to 'light'

Illuminati does not mean "enlightened", in the strictest sense as translated. This definition was assigned to the group who called themselves Illuminati.

Is there a reliable source which explains the origins of the word "Illuminati", and its meaning in context to this article? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.159.103.216 (talk) 14:21, 1 March 2020 (UTC)

Illuminati/Illuminaten means "enlightened ones" - plural; illuminatus: "one of the enlightened". They explain in their rituals that the name descends from the first Christians who were called illuminati when they were illuminated with the holy spirit, i.e. baptized/born again. Church tradition mentions illuminati in this context in Catholicism and Protestantism. XDev (talk) 16:12, 1 March 2020 (UTC)

Adding to the confusion is the Age of Enlightenment which wasn't called that until decades after the Bavarian Illuminati had been disbanded, and while similarly named in Italian, the German name for the Age is Aufklärung. EllenCT (talk) 18:58, 1 March 2020 (UTC)

Modern Illuminati

The rumours and speculations that the Illuminati still exists is incorporated with the conspiracy theory. Such claims have been suggested by conspiracy theorists. Today, there are many books, archives, even also documentary films surrounding these "secret elites" and the Illuminati. Such information are found elsewhere to the internet. You can find them in reliable sources. In this article, much of description specifies towards the original Bavarian Illuminati. There is some bias in portion of the old, without regarding the contemporary secret Illuminati. I think the old and the current should be written in this article for balance. The Supermind (talk) 17:00, 12 June 2020 (UTC)

There's no continuance of the Bavarian Illuminati beyond the mid 1790s (at the latest). Those who claim there is have not produced evidence of it. Scholars have looked into it for centuries and found no evidence. Elites have always been here, but calling them Illuminati is just muddying the waters and contrary to historical evidence. Might as well just call them boogeymen. It's an empty, immature appellation. XDev (talk) 14:31, 13 June 2020 (UTC)

If you wanted to know, there are several Illuminati groups, but as far as the Bavarian Illuminati™, yes, we exists and right now we are in the process of re-structuring due to the artificial pandemic. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 209.159.231.41 (talk) 13:19, 29 October 2020 (UTC)

And YOU TOO can join... just send 1,000 euros for your certificate of membership (suitable for framing) and a decoder ring.

Ok seriously, as the article states, there are several modern groups that CLAIM to be a continuation of the original, or an attempt to RE-CREATE it. These modern groups are NOT the secretive world dominating “Illuminati” talked about by conspiracy theorists. Blueboar (talk) 14:51, 29 October 2020 (UTC)

This article doesn't reflect the current subject. What are the elites?. The current society tend to remain secret rather than their freedom of expression. They deemed to orchestrate illegal activity and influence the world to allure its members and ultimately rule the world. The context should contain their ideology, the modern government system and evil tactics. Yes, they believe in Devil and they want to fulfill the demand of the Devil. They want to subvert people faiths belonged to Abrahamic religion to Satanism and idolatry. They are fueled with evil. The Supermind (talk) 08:01, 15 December 2020 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 16 June 2020

have you seen my dogs and then she decided she would have a good time with you and then you could make it a few more days and then.

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. Danski454 (talk) 08:19, 16 June 2020 (UTC)

About illuminati

As i think in the present day the most power in political or in everything happend in our planet governed by illuminati because many industries,many persons like country leaders,many famous persons,food industry's,film industry controlled by them so if we pass this we loses everything we get and we complete there goal. So what is the solution here the only solution was making one strong society which make different inspiring teaches and showing the bad part of joining illuminati but it is difficult to formulae this organization because i said that every industries are controlled by them so this organization is not supported by finance. So fuad (talk) 08:59, 31 August 2020 (UTC)

In fiction

I'd like to see a mention of fictional descriptions of Illuminati plots. Illuminati (game) and The Illuminatus! Trilogy are obvious candidates. Ungulates (talk) 00:55, 2 November 2020 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 14 November 2020

Change membership mentions of Count Metternich and Count Stadion to: Klemens von Metternich Johann Philipp Stadion, Count von Warthausen

They should both be specifically identified given their historical significance, as they are in the sourced material. Strangestlove (talk) 11:41, 14 November 2020 (UTC)

Can anyone verify this source? It's in French, so I can't read it even if I have access. There is a reference that Metternich's father was a member ([1]), but I couldn't verify anything else. ◢  Ganbaruby!  (Say hi!) 15:08, 15 December 2020 (UTC)

Here are the Metternichs that were members of the illuminati, per the Gotha Illuminaten Research Projekt: https://database.factgrid.de/wiki/Item:Q767 https://database.factgrid.de/wiki/Item:Q766 https://database.factgrid.de/wiki/Item:Q765 The first link is indeed Klemens' father. His son was a bit too young to be initiated but he swung in the same circles as his father and Illuminati members, papa included, were around him in his youth. He imbibed their enlightenment beliefs. https://database.factgrid.de/wiki/FactGrid:The_Gotha_Illuminati_Research_Base XDev (talk) 01:45, 18 December 2020 (UTC)

XDev, that is an SPS, in particular user-generated like Wikipedia. That is not reliable as a source. JavaHurricane 16:28, 20 December 2020 (UTC)

It's actually *the* authority in all the world on everything Illuminati related. They have access to all the Illuminaten papers, all the archives - everything. It is a collective of the world's experts on the subject. They are the keepers of all the gold. University of Erfurt. https://database.factgrid.de/wiki/FactGrid:Gotha_Illuminati_Research_Base_Team#Projects_and_Participants XDev (talk) 15:06, 21 December 2020 (UTC)

Want to know exactly who are actually identified members of the Illuminati? The best source since the 1990s was professor Hermann Schuttler's Die Mitglieder des Illuminatenordens, 1776-1787/93 (Munich, 1991). He's part of the collective. It was his research which is the foundation. In his book he went through every archive that had info about the Illuminati and compiled the book with over a thousand members (definitively identified). His database, it turns out, wasn't a database. Just an excel file. Him, his colleagues and his students, entered all his data along with more recent discoveries in the Schwedenkiste Illuminaten archive (which they possess and are processing). On the Swedish Crate's significance see here <https://www.conspiracyarchive.com/2015/07/28/the-so-called-schwedenkiste-swedish-box-the-most-significant-illuminati-archive/>. Here are all the known members of the Illuminati (utilizing the combined data from Schuttler and the Swedish Crate): <https://database.factgrid.de/query/embed.html#SELECT%20%3Fmember%20%3FmemberLabel%20%3FnameLabel%20%3FmemberDescription%20%3Fdate_of_birth%20%3FIO_nameLabel%20WHERE%20%7B%0A%20%20SERVICE%20wikibase%3Alabel%20%7B%20bd%3AserviceParam%20wikibase%3Alanguage%20%22%5BAUTO_LANGUAGE%5D%2Cen%22.%20%7D%0A%20%20%3Fmember%20wdt%3AP91%20wd%3AQ10677.%0A%20%20OPTIONAL%20%7B%20%3Fmember%20wdt%3AP247%20%3Fname.%20%7D%0A%20%20OPTIONAL%20%7B%20%3Fmember%20wdt%3AP140%20%3FIO_name.%20%7D%0A%20%20OPTIONAL%20%7B%20%3Fmember%20wdt%3AP77%20%3Fdate_of_birth.%20%7D%0A%7D%0AORDER%20BY%20(%3FnameLabel)> XDev (talk) 15:20, 21 December 2020 (UTC)

Cannot stress enough: that site and its valuable info is *the* first and last word on everything Illuminati related. Period. You start here <https://database.factgrid.de/wiki/FactGrid:The_Gotha_Illuminati_Research_Base> or you don't start at all. Everything real discovered about the Illuminati comes from them and their sources. They are primary because they have all the primary sources and have been working with it for decades. Clear? XDev (talk) 15:27, 21 December 2020 (UTC) XDev (talk) 15:23, 21 December 2020 (UTC)

 Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. Darren-M talk 12:53, 21 December 2020 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 30 December 2020

Hi to all! My name is Luis. I'm a spanish professional musician, writer and speaker. I would like to add as an external link (If it's possible) The link goes to a video that lets the users of this page see the actual site and probably the original place where Illuminati from Bavaria make their meetings and where was located the synagogue in Ingolstadt City. Even it's in Spanish, I think it could be useful as a physical way of documentation of the environment and where the place is located in Bavaria, near Munich. Thank you who ever you read it!

This is the code:

• Historia Oculta de la Música en la sede de los Illuminati (Spanish), Video to visit the original building of the illuminati in Baviera. (2020, March) Luismagerit (talk) 18:54, 30 December 2020 (UTC)

​We rarely link to self-published sources, additionally the contents of the video may be a bit too specific for this large topic. – Thjarkur (talk) 19:02, 30 December 2020 (UTC)