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:Done.[[User:Nishidani|Nishidani]] ([[User talk:Nishidani|talk]]) 15:10, 12 June 2018 (UTC)
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:[[File:Yes check.svg|20px|link=|alt=]] '''Done'''<!-- Template:EEp --> [[User:Sir Joseph|Sir Joseph]] <sup>[[User_talk:Sir Joseph|<span style="color: Green;">(talk)</span>]]</sup> 16:09, 12 June 2018 (UTC)
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== Israel Hayom ==

The recent edits made by Nishidani are a blatant display of bias editing. To assert that Israel Hayom, the most widely read newspaper in Israel, is not a reliable source is absolutely absurd. Yes, it slants to the Right, just as Yediot Ahronot slants to the Left. But to assert that it is not a reliable source is frankly ludicrous, especially seeing as it is widely accepted as being a mainstream paper in Israel - as opposed to, let's say, Haaretz. If Israel Hayom is not a reliable source, then neither is Yediot, CNN, Fox News, BBC, etc. I am reverting all of his edits removing Israel Hayom as a source. [[User:PasterofMuppets|PasterofMuppets]] ([[User talk:PasterofMuppets|talk]]) 12:01, 24 January 2021 (UTC)

Revision as of 12:01, 24 January 2021

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Recap. So far

Im Tirtzu (Hebrew: אם תרצו, lit. 'If you will it') is a Zionist[1][2] non-governmental organization based in Israel.[3] Its name is derived from an epigraph appended to the frontespiece of Theodor Herzl's novel Altneuland, 'if you wish it, it is no fairy-tale,' rendered into modern Hebrew in Nahum Sokolow's translation in 1903, as Im tirtzu ein zo agadah. ("If you will it, it is no dream.")[4][5]

Established in 2006, the organization stated that its mission was to renew "Zionist discourse, Zionist thinking and Zionist ideology to ensure the future of the Jewish nation and the State of Israel."[6][7][8][9]It declares that it is dedicated to combating what it perceives to be a "campaign of de-legitimization against the State of Israel", it associates with the phenomena of Post-Zionism and Anti-Zionism.[3]Im Tirtzu operates fifteen branches at universities and colleges throughout the country[3] and runs the largest Zionist academic extra-curricular program in Israel.[10] Supporters have described Im Tirtzu as an important Zionist movement[citation needed], and it has received notable support at times from the Israeli government.[citation needed]

  1. ^ Abe Selig (2 February 2010). "New Israel Fund comes out swinging against Im Tirtzu report". The Jerusalem Post. Retrieved 20 November 2013.
  2. ^ Robert Mackley (16 December 2015). "Group Calls Israelis 'Foreign Agents' for Work on Behalf of Palestinians". The New York Times.
  3. ^ a b c "About Us". Im Tirtzu. Retrieved 13 August 2016.
  4. ^ Fiammetta Martegani, The Israeli Defence Forces’ Representation in Israeli Cinema: Did David Betray His Soldiers?, Cambridge Scholars Publishing, 2017 p.52.
  5. ^ Denis Charbit (ed.), Theodor Herzl,Altneuland: nouveau pays ancient,, tr L.Delau, éditions de l’éclat, 2004 pp-16-17.
  6. ^ Nicola Perugini, Neve Gordon, The Human Right to Dominate, Oxford University Press, 2015 p.59.
  7. ^ 'What is Im Tirtzu’s main arena of activity?,' IMTI 2015:'Im Tirtzu is an extra-parliamentary movement that works to strengthen and advance the values of Zionism in Israel. Im Tirtzu was established in 2006, after the Second Lebanon War, by Israeli intellectuals, students and IDF reservists. Im Tirtzu‘s main objectives focus on working towards a renewal of the Zionist discourse, Zionist thinking and Zionist ideology, to ensure the future of the Jewish nation and of the State of Israel. and to advance Israeli society in coping with the challenges it faces.
  8. ^ Aubrey L. Glazer, A New Physiognomy of Jewish Thinking: Critical Theory After Adorno as Applied to Jewish Thought, A&C Black, 2011 p.79-80
  9. ^ Elie Friedman, Dalia Gavriely-Nuri, Israeli Discourse and the West Bank: Dialectics of Normalization and Estrangement, Routledge, 2017
  10. ^ Lidar Gravé-Lazi (29 June 2016). "Boosting Zionist education – within Israel". The Jerusalem Post. Retrieved 13 August 2016.

'At times' seems necessary given the right wing criticism of its excesses in the 'mole' campaign?Nishidani (talk) 17:26, 25 January 2018 (UTC) To date, therefore 3 of four original paragraphs are agreed upon.[reply]

We differ only in the wording of the fourth, now third paragraph, which I suggest should be as follows.

Im Tirtzu's campaigns against the New Israel Fund, foreign government-funded NGOs, and what it alleges to be bias in the curricula of Israeli universities are highly controversial, with some maintaining that Im Tirtzu bears similarities to fascist groups.[1][2] Im Tirtzu's strategies have been described as focusing on delegitimizing Israeli left and human-rights groups and driving a wedge between them and their funding sources.[3][4]

  1. ^ Cite error: The named reference Hasson was invoked but never defined (see the help page).
  2. ^ Joanna Paraszczuk (13 February 2012). "Court to rule on anti-Im Tirzu Facebook page". The Jerusalem Post.
  3. ^ Cite error: The named reference NPNG was invoked but never defined (see the help page).
  4. ^ Katherine Natanel, Sustaining Conflict: Apathy and Domination in Israel-Palestine, University of California Press 2016 pp.170-171, p.209 n.5:‘Deemed fascist and McCarthyist by Ha’aretz journalist Gideon Levy, Im Tirtzu is a right-wing extra-parliamentary organization which “works to strengthen and advance the values of Zionism in Israel.”: it does so in part through targeting academics, institutions, and organizations deemed ‘anti-Zionist’ by its own estimation.'

And PoM suggests as

Critics have maintained that Im Tirtzu's campaigns against the New Israel Fund, foreign government-funded NGOs, and alleged bias in the curricula of Israeli universities focus on delegitimizing Israeli left and human-rights groups and driving a wedge between them and their funding sources, and bear similarities to fascist groups

Looks like we're almost there, Nishidani!
1. "At times" isn't necessary because one case does not preclude a general truth. I remember after the Temple Mount terrorist attack an NGO called Adalah defended the attackers, and the New Israel Fund, which funds them, criticized their statement. But we wouldn't say that the New Israel Fund "at times" supports Adalah. Even among adamant supporters there is occasional criticism. Also, the "mole" critism does not falsify the statement "it has received..."
2.Regarding the last paragraph, I take issue with writing that their activities are "highly controversial" as an editorial statement as you suggest. Honestly, I gave in to the sentence you wanted (although I adamantly disagree) and we should call it at that, without either of us trying to add in anymore things to sway the lead whichever way.
Waiting for your response and then I will happily update.PasterofMuppets (talk) 10:52, 28 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Sorry for my tardiness,but I’m still abed and will be foreseeably for another day, and even checking in here desultorily means only a quick glance via a borrowed tablet with a faulty connection. I take your point re ‘at times’: the analogy is cogent, even though there is evidence that Im Tirtzu’s McCarthyist tactics have drawn fire from its own official rightwing supporters in the Knesset at times. McCarthyism, the paranoid style of American extremist politics, fascism,antisemitism, were big issues when I was young, and everything I read re Im Tirtzu looks, and I have a technical historical knowledge of these things, ‘thuggish’. The mole episode reminds me of the same logic of seeing the hand of the communists, or Jews everywhere, and ‘outing’ them, -witch-hunting, and ‘highly controversial’ is a fairly balanced allusion to the fact that Im Tirtzu is a radical extra-parliamentary group intent on crushing dissent within the ranks, be that Zionist or ‘Jewish’. The language we have just nods to that: it doesn’t heave out vitriol.
So I don’t see how that can be eliminated: Im Tirtzu’s tactics are not mainstream, they play hardball. We’ve negotiated 3 paragraphs that have no whisper of criticism, but the last is obliged to note that the organization is viewed with distaste widely, even among Zionists whose lack of moderation is well known . If I’m well tomorrow I will draft the last paragraph, with some slight adjustments, but not much,and you can get back to me.

Nishidani (talk) 21:37, 28 January 2018 (UTC).[reply]

Firstly, feel better. Secondly, well that's just the point – you view them as a "radical extra-parliamentary group" and "not mainstream" but millions in Israel and around the world, including the Israel government and the Israeli media view them as mainstream (yes, every mainstream Israeli media outlet including Yediot Ahronot, Channel 2, Channel 10, Israel Hayom, Walla, etc., - barring Haaretz which is not mainstream in Israel).
It is precisely for this reason why we cannot editorialize, and need to properly attribute support and criticism.
Regarding the 3 paragraphs without criticism, well that's the point isn't it – that the last paragraph should be the criticism lol. Why do all the paragraphs need to have criticism, when it is accepted practice to dedicate the last paragraph to the criticism? And I think the anti-human rights and fascist criticism is plenty.
Here is my suggestion for it all (without references just to keep it as clean as possible at the moment):

Im Tirtzu (Hebrew: אם תרצו, lit. 'If you will it') is a Zionist non-governmental organization based in Israel. Its name is derived from an epigraph appended to the frontespiece of Theodor Herzl's novel Altneuland, 'if you wish it, it is no fairy-tale,' rendered into modern Hebrew in Nahum Sokolow's translation in 1903, as Im tirtzu ein zo agadah. ("If you will it, it is no dream.")

Established in 2006, the organization stated that its mission was to renew "Zionist discourse, Zionist thinking and Zionist ideology to ensure the future of the Jewish nation and the State of Israel." It declares that it is dedicated to combating what it perceives to be a "campaign of de-legitimization against the State of Israel," which it associates with the phenomena of Post-Zionism and Anti-Zionism.

Im Tirtzu operates fifteen branches at universities and colleges throughout the country and runs the largest Zionist academic extra-curricular program in Israel. Supporters have described Im Tirtzu as an important Zionist movement, and it has received notable support from the Israeli government.

Critics have maintained that Im Tirtzu's campaigns against the New Israel Fund, foreign government-funded NGOs, and alleged bias in the curricula of Israeli universities focus on delegitimizing Israeli left and human-rights groups and driving a wedge between them and their funding sources, and bear similarities to fascist groups. PasterofMuppets (talk) 07:43, 29 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I have ordered the agreed on paras, with sources, above, so I am not going to check the above against those three, now two paras. The source of contention is the last paragraph.

but millions in Israel and around the world, including the Israel government and the Israeli media view them as mainstream

That's a non-argument. Popular backing (even accepting the highly dubious assertion above for argument's sake) is no indication of analytical status. Every fascist movement had millions backing it, in the past and today. When its own backers step back and call it McCarthist (even the ADL did so), well, McCarthy had millions of backers until, and even after, his boozy sleaze was exposed. Benny Begin didn't say it 'bears similarities to fascist groups'. He said in the Knesset that it was 'fascist'. If anything the paragraph as you rewrite it is soft.Nishidani (talk) 12:50, 29 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
One thing you could do is supply quotes for the cite required statements, that glare at the reader.i.e. for 'Supporters have described Im Tirtzu as an important Zionist movement, and it has received notable support from the Israeli government.'Nishidani (talk) 12:52, 29 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Agreed about the popular backing, but again Wikipedia isn't meant to have analytical original research and is meant to reflect the factual truth without analysis of right or wrong. And not that this is so relevant, but according to the Times of Israel article cited in the wiki article, Benny Begin said that Im Tirtzu's tactics in the cultural mole campaign were fascist, not the organization itself: "The singling out of so-called traitors is an old-fashioned fascist technique"
But back to our issue, I don't like the quotes for the statements of support and opposition, because as a general rule I don't think one person's quote should be used to generalize. In short, I think we are making great progress but am disappointed that even after I included that sentence that I so adamantly oppose for the sake of compromise, because I thought that would seal the deal, you are now insisting on adding something else. I honestly cannot understand what is wrong about the way the criticism stands, which incorporates your language about the human rights/left wing + wedge + framing.
Let's be honest with one another: I would like to add more things in support and you would like to in criticism, but in looking at through the lens of an outside observer, it is honestly one of the strongest and most balanced leads I've seen about an NGO. It is concise, yet captures the general essence of the NGO and its support and criticism. Anything else, I believe is overkill. What do you say? PasterofMuppets (talk) 13:49, 29 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Re Benny Begin, see Duck test. What I did was examine all of your points closely, and come up with a consensual version for 3 of the 4 paragraphs. In addition, I cleaned up the third paragraph, was it?, by removing the negative lines and making (a) a para on the term and its denotation and origin (b) A neutral description of its self-declared aims (c) a para on its programmes and support - all without a murmur of innuendo. The fourth paragraph deals with its negative reception. I'm afraid you can't 'clean out' the fact that in many quarters it gets a very poor press, and high notable people and associations, ranging from 'moles' to key Zionist organizations, have taken exception to its behavior. Your impression is that you 'gave in'. My impression is that I have gone a fair way to give you a clean 3 paras, and that your pursuit of more compromises on the one small para on what is an extensive record of criticism is overplaying your hand. I'm still not over the flu, but I will try to fix my promised last para version by tomorrow.Nishidani (talk) 14:29, 29 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
I guess we will have to agree to disagree, with an occasional agreement. I look forward to seeing your proposed last paragraph. Feel good. PasterofMuppets (talk) 15:02, 30 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Im Tirtzu's campaigns against the New Israel Fund, foreign government-funded NGOs, and what it alleges to be bias in the curricula of Israeli universities are highly controversial, at times even among Zionists, [1] [2] with some maintaining that Im Tirtzu bears similarities to fascist groups.[3][4][5] Im Tirtzu's strategies have been described as focusing on delegitimizing Israeli left and human-rights groups and driving a wedge between them and their funding sources.[6][7]

  1. ^ McCarthyism and the Latest Im Tirtzu Campaign Anti-Defamation League 2016
  2. ^ 'Im Tirtzu founder sings McCarthys praises on Twitter, gets 'schooled by Meretz Chairwoman,' Haaretz 27 January 2016:'Galon was reacting to comments on the Twitter social network by Ronen Shoval, a founder of the right-wing Im Tirtzu organization and by Israel Channel 20 editor Avishai Ivri. "[I'm] not familiar with the exact historical details regarding Joseph McCarthy, but you see who is coming out against him currently and you can't help but be in his favor," Ivri said in a tweet in Hebrew. For his part, Shoval, who was on the Habayit Hayehudi slate in last year's Knesset election, but was not elected to parliament, commented in Hebrew: "The historical details revealed that in most cases, he was correct."
  3. ^ Peter Beaumont 'Rightwing Israeli group accused of McCarthyism over anti-artist campaign,' The Guardian 28 January 2016:'Im Tirtzu billboards calling critics of Israeli state 'leftwing moles' denounced by cultural and political leaders as reminiscent of US witch-hunt. he billboard campaign by Im Tirtzu denounces figures – including two of Israel’s most internationally recognisable writers, Amoz Oz and David Grossman – as “infiltrators inside [Israeli] culture”.Benny Begin, son of the former Israeli PM Menachim Begin and a prominent MP in Netanyahu’s party, denounced Im Tirtzu’s campaign as “fascist”. Im Tirtzu is no stranger to allegations of fascism. In 2013 a Jerusalem court ruled in favour of leftwing activists who had been sued for calling the group fascist, adding that they could use defences of freedom of speech and “spoken truth”.
  4. ^ Cite error: The named reference Hasson was invoked but never defined (see the help page).
  5. ^ Joanna Paraszczuk (13 February 2012). "Court to rule on anti-Im Tirzu Facebook page". The Jerusalem Post.
  6. ^ Cite error: The named reference NPNG was invoked but never defined (see the help page).
  7. ^ Katherine Natanel, Sustaining Conflict: Apathy and Domination in Israel-Palestine, University of California Press 2016 pp.170-171, p.209 n.5:‘Deemed fascist and McCarthyist by Ha’aretz journalist Gideon Levy, Im Tirtzu is a right-wing extra-parliamentary organization which “works to strengthen and advance the values of Zionism in Israel.”: it does so in part through targeting academics, institutions, and organizations deemed ‘anti-Zionist’ by its own estimation.'

As you can see this has a minor correction, regarding criticism from Zionists themselves. The record must show, given that we have mentioned its wide support among Zionists in the preceding positive para., that criticism is not limited to 'left wing' groups.Nishidani (talk) 20:26, 1 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I'm a little disappointed because I thought you were going to come up with a new idea, but it seems that all you did was add the minor addition which you know I wouldn't agree to :(
It seems that the only thing holding this back is your insistence to add the word "controversial" in there, which I believe is not appropriate and is WP:LABEL. I have just finished searching a dozen of similar NGOs on both sides of the aisle and did not find this language in any of them. I don't understand how this is okay?
I think we did a great job thus far balancing the article, and any further additions to the support or criticism would undue this progress. After all, that is why there is a dedicated section to support and criticism, and I think any additions should be added there. PasterofMuppets (talk) 11:00, 5 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Nishidani
Hello! After a prolonged absence due to an unfortunate medical ailment , I am back :) I had pretty much forgotten all of this, and therefore read up on it and realized that this is virtually 99% done. I see I agreed to add in the "driving a wedge" sentence that you were advocating for. Now I can't seem to understand what is holding this up. PasterofMuppets (talk) 13:38, 10 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]
I will wait a little longer for a response, and then I will make the edits as were largely agreed upon :) PasterofMuppets (talk) 08:36, 23 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]
I agree with the proposal of Nishidani.
But I don't see a proposal from you he would agree on.
Given the context, I can't agree with potential modifications that you would made without consensus...
Could you please suggest your proposal here on the talk page before ?
Pluto2012 (talk) 17:42, 23 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Hi Pluto, nice of you to bravely join this incredibly long thread :) This is my proposal, which accepts Nishandi's additions of the name, its stated goal, and criticism in delegitimizing left-wing and human rights groups. As you can see, Nishandi did a 180 from the previous lead and added in a lot of criticism. Which is fine, I agreed for the sake of moving things forward. As you can see, the below proposal is balanced and follows a clear order: explanation, org's goals, support, criticism.

Im Tirtzu (Hebrew: אם תרצו, lit. 'If you will it') is a Zionist non-governmental organization based in Israel. Its name is derived from an epigraph appended to the frontespiece of Theodor Herzl's novel Altneuland, 'if you wish it, it is no fairy-tale,' rendered into modern Hebrew in Nahum Sokolow's translation in 1903, as Im tirtzu ein zo agadah. ("If you will it, it is no dream.")
Established in 2006, the organization stated that its mission was to renew "Zionist discourse, Zionist thinking and Zionist ideology to ensure the future of the Jewish nation and the State of Israel." It declares that it is dedicated to combating what it perceives to be a "campaign of de-legitimization against the State of Israel," which it associates with the phenomena of Post-Zionism and Anti-Zionism.
Im Tirtzu operates fifteen branches at universities and colleges throughout the country and runs the largest Zionist academic extra-curricular program in Israel. Supporters have described Im Tirtzu as an important Zionist movement, and it has received notable support from the Israeli government.
Critics have maintained that Im Tirtzu's campaigns against the New Israel Fund, foreign government-funded NGOs, and alleged bias in the curricula of Israeli universities focus on delegitimizing Israeli left and human-rights groups and bear similarities to fascist groups. PasterofMuppets (talk) 06:12, 25 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Pluto? PasterofMuppets (talk) 08:35, 6 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]
I will be updating the lead soon if I do not hear back. PasterofMuppets (talk) 07:44, 22 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]
I've reverted you. You haven't a consensus, and seem unamenable to one. If you review the thread and the edit history you will observe I went quite a way to meeting your concerns. You can't get everything you want.Nishidani (talk) 12:04, 7 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]
It's nice to see you again. As you can understand, the repeated lack of responses I was receiving here indicated that you had no interest in the edit, but it's nice to see that's not true.
With all due respect, I have been flexible at every turn and if you didn't notice, the article is heavily leaning toward what you want rather than I. Just a reminder, this whole edit started after you made significant changed to the lead without consulting anyone. Since then, you have been blocking any changes to your edit which should've been discussed in the first place. You have still yet to indicate why the change I made is unbalanced, as it incorporates pretty much every single thing you asked for. Waiting for your reply. PasterofMuppets (talk) 12:16, 7 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]
There's a cognitive or stylistic error in 'repeated lack of responses'. What is not there cannot, by definition, repeatedly be not there, since repetition implies recursion to a preexisting something, whereas the lack of response is a constant silence.
I made significant changes to the text because I build articles, and this was in a neglected and unsatisfactory state. That said, you contested the changes, and up to a point we ironed out some differences, and achieved some fair compromises. The last note by Pluto said he concurred with my overview. You returned to again repropose variants on what you are always proposing, and neither he nor I replied, because essentially this thread is at a dead end. I have dedicated more time to this than I do to hundreds of serious articles, but if there is an impasse or deadlock, well, sorry, but what you propose guts what I consider important lead material, that I've tweaked and retweaked, but can't compromise further.
This might seem unfair as closing the gate. Well, this happens every other day with edits I might like to see made, which are stymied, blocked, reverted or rewritten by a majority that is indifferent to the serious negotiations wse have had here.
The proper thing is to seek richer material rather for the body of the text that would then per due weight allow further recensions of the lead. Nishidani (talk) 13:08, 7 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]
I understand that when there is an impasse we cannot go any further; however, the issue is that a large part of this impasse resulted from edits that you made and which now you would have conveniently untouched due to the impasse. If, according to your logic which I accept, that we cannot edit something because of an impasse, than why is it legitimate that the below sentence remain? It was never agreed upon. You cannot make an edit that was not agreed upon, and then when I want to revert it claim that it can't be edited because of an impasse. By your logic, the below sentence should be removed.
According to critics, Im Tirtzu's strategies focus on delegitimizing Israeli left and human-rights groups and driving a wedge between them and their funding sources. PasterofMuppets (talk) 08:14, 11 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]
I think you misrepresent the edit history and talk page. I have met several of your concerns. On what grounds are you questioning the sentence above? (a) does it not represent the sources? (b) it is untrue? (c) It fails WP:Lede? etc.?Nishidani (talk) 09:23, 11 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Apropos funding I added a further article from Uri Blau regarding its American funding sources, to support what we say, ie., that it is critical of foreign funding when the beneficiary is leftist NGOs, but appreciative whe Im Tirtzu itself pockets the dough (to attack the latter, among other things). I haven't added this example of double standards to the lead, and don't intend to, but it stands out like dogs' balls, and probably would go in there were someone less amenable to compromise than myself to work this article.Nishidani (talk) 09:39, 11 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Lol, Uri Blau would be proud that his piece made it to Wiki, I'm sure. There is no double standard here nor does anything stand out "like dogs' balls," anyone who knows a little about Im Tirtzu knows that they take issue with foreign governmental funding, not foreign funding in general.
Also, the overview is a good idea. Kudos. But I honestly have no idea what "was closely meshed with a network of other bodies" means. Care to explain? The source that you quoted ("ironically" Naomi Chazan), does not seem to support what you wrote. PasterofMuppets (talk) 12:50, 20 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]


please change ((IDF)) to ((Israel Defense Forces|IDF))

Done.Nishidani (talk) 15:10, 12 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]
 Done Sir Joseph (talk) 16:09, 12 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Israel Hayom

The recent edits made by Nishidani are a blatant display of bias editing. To assert that Israel Hayom, the most widely read newspaper in Israel, is not a reliable source is absolutely absurd. Yes, it slants to the Right, just as Yediot Ahronot slants to the Left. But to assert that it is not a reliable source is frankly ludicrous, especially seeing as it is widely accepted as being a mainstream paper in Israel - as opposed to, let's say, Haaretz. If Israel Hayom is not a reliable source, then neither is Yediot, CNN, Fox News, BBC, etc. I am reverting all of his edits removing Israel Hayom as a source. PasterofMuppets (talk) 12:01, 24 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

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