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Also if this depuration goes along all of them would end as left wing and non is center left which would make the dashes unnecessary.
Also if this depuration goes along all of them would end as left wing and non is center left which would make the dashes unnecessary.
My other doubt is if the Castros and Diez sould be there, considering that they are clearly not part of any wave and are not "pink" either. [[User:Dereck Camacho|Dereck Camacho]] ([[User talk:Dereck Camacho|talk]])---
My other doubt is if the Castros and Diez sould be there, considering that they are clearly not part of any wave and are not "pink" either. [[User:Dereck Camacho|Dereck Camacho]] ([[User talk:Dereck Camacho|talk]])---

I see that there are indeed references that include Lagos and Bachelet and see no problem with the inclusions of Surinam and St. Vicent.

I also see that the same discussion is taking place in Portuguese.

My only doubt bow is whether Cuba should be included, as someone puts it in Portuguese, is neither part of a wave nor pink. Anyone opposes removing it? For the opposite reason that the social democrats, is not moderate enough.

Also {{u|Braganza}} I think is ok for you to make the suggested changes on Spanish if no one comments. [[User:Dereck Camacho|Dereck Camacho]] ([[User talk:Dereck Camacho|talk]]) 02:16, 19 April 2021 (UTC)

Revision as of 02:16, 19 April 2021

Talk:Pink tide/Archive 1

Guyana and Suriname?

It looks like in the past few months Guyana and Suriname were added and then removed from the list and timeline, with the following leaders in question:

Jagdeo, Ramotar, and Ali are all members of the People's Progressive Party (Guyana), while Bouterse is from National Democratic Party (Suriname). It looks like both parties were originally left-wing parties that have drifted closer to center-left.

Is there an official stance on whether Guyana and Suriname were part of the pink wave? --BadgerPriest (talk) 22:30, 19 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Hard to tell honestly, I know very little about those countries. I personally do not have a position in favor or againts their inclusion. --Dereck Camacho (talk) 07:03, 24 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
and both Panama and DR recognized Guaido while Guyana supported National Assembly (despite very bad relations to Venezuela) and Suriname recognized Maduro
@BadgerPriest and Dereck Camacho: I wouldn't even count the (today's) PRM+PLD+PRD (Dominican R.) and PRD (Panama) to this "pink wave" because they are centrist parties and are part of the Center-Democratic Integration Group, while PPP/C+PNC/R and NDP are clearly left Braganza (talk) 08:30, 15 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]
I have no objection with the removal of the Dominican parties that you mention. I'm more doubtful about Panama's PRD as is a member of the Sao Paulo Forum. Do you have any sources that says that is indeed more right wing? Dereck Camacho (talk) 09:36, 15 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]
I don't know too much about politics in Panama, so I may be wrong, but I see no reason to leave out the NDP while Dominican centrist parties are listed in even though similar parties (APRA and PAIS) are for that reason not listed or even listed in the conservative wave
To cut a long story short, I suggest replacing DR with Suriname (and maybe Guyana) Braganza (talk) 09:44, 15 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]
No objection on my behalf. We could discuss a little the issue of Panama, maybe even Chile as Concertacion is not that different either. I will open a request for comment. However I see no problem with replacing RD. Dereck Camacho (talk) 10:46, 15 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]

RfC about social democrats on the Pink Tide

Should social democrats presidents be included in the Pink Tide? Dereck Camacho (talk) 10:55, 15 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]

To further explain: Social democracy has a long history in Latin America as it has it in Europe and Canada and lots of social democratic parties have had governments since the 30s. Social democrats are generally considered moderate center-left and yet some were included as part of the Pink Tide. Alvaro Colom on Guatemala and Luis Guillermo Solís/Carlos Alvarado in Costa Rica were removed for that reason, but others remain like Laurentino Cortizo (PRD) in Panama and Michelle Bachelet and other Concertación governments in Chile. Chile for example has currently a frontrunner who is truly left-wing, Daniel Jadue of the Communist Party of Chile who, if elected, will be a true Pink Tide case. --Dereck Camacho (talk) 10:58, 15 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Include Checking a few RSs, I see that "pink tide" is almost always described as electoral victories by "left and center-left" candidates. I would say that's grounds for including social democrats. But I suspect the real discussion will begin with the efforts of defining how center-left and individual candidate has to be in order to be included. Especially since social democracy is a term wide enough, with different definitions around the world, to basically have its own political spectrum. PraiseVivec (talk) 14:52, 15 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]


I would say:

Stay Remove Add

maybe:

References

  1. ^ https://www.leftvoice.org/a-faded-pink-tide-broad-peronist-coalition-defeats-macri-in-argentina
  2. ^ https://www.theperspective.se/is-there-a-new-pink-tide-on-latin-americas-horizon/
  3. ^ a b c https://theweek.com/articles/840587/why-generation-latin-american-leaders-failed-deliver-promise-progress
  4. ^ a b https://foreignpolicy.com/2009/04/23/paraguays-baby-daddy-in-chief/
  5. ^ https://books.google.de/books?id=uyZWDwAAQBAJ&pg=PT210&lpg=PT210&dq=fernando+lugo+pink+wave&source=bl&ots=K9Vw3tMZhM&sig=ACfU3U1kXZDN9kK7Fg_fTrFVHYFSeTuJ2Q&hl=de&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjv2c7cgYHwAhXe_7sIHVj7BawQ6AEwE3oECBQQAw#v=onepage&q=fernando
  6. ^ Book: Ollanta Humala: de Locumba a candidato a la presidencia en Perú
  7. ^ https://www.opendemocracy.net/en/new-andean-politics-bolivia-peru-ecuador/
  8. ^ https://www.washingtonpost.com/local/obituaries/tabare-vazquez-dead/2020/12/06/8c56f6c4-3828-11eb-9276-ae0ca72729be_story.html
  9. ^ a b https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=2ahUKEwiijta1gYHwAhWC8LsIHYPFAOgQFjAFegQIAxAD&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.ft.com%2Fcontent%2F81801886-f650-11e9-bbe1-4db3476c5ff0&usg=AOvVaw0YGymqi99pFcgGL2CMv1qe
  10. ^ https://books.google.de/books?id=mXKfDwAAQBAJ&pg=PA206&lpg=PA206&dq=dési+bouterse+pink+tide&source=bl&ots=sesWJZxHV1&sig=ACfU3U1nYx-SZcpgY5GYVNEOgaDv8x_FxQ&hl=de&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwi_ure94YDwAhWO8LsIHV6-BiwQ6AEwD3oECBIQAw#v=onepage&q=dési P. 206
  11. ^ https://www.ibiconsultants.net/_pdf/cuba-in-the-bolivarian-revolution.pdf
  12. ^ https://www.ft.com/content/0ef20fb0-680a-11e9-9adc-98bf1d35a056

so these presidents which will be removed are either have moderate positions (and don't had good/better relationships to other "pink" countries; PRD (Panama)), turned their party into third way (or are members of centrist organizations like Center-Democratic Integration Group; PRD (Dominican R.), PLD, PRM) or are close to centrist parties than to communist/socialist parties (Convergencia) Braganza (talk) 15:04, 15 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]

@Stalin990, Dentren, NoonIcarus, Son of Kenway, Roycebellion243, Bageense, Angele201002, and Sumanuil: what do you think?

  • We should include heads of state who are actually mentioned by RS as being part of the pink tide, irrespective of assessments of their specific political tendency. To do otherwise is original research. signed, Rosguill talk 15:48, 15 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]
I add different sources of a few minutes of research from all where I could get google results quickly Braganza (talk) 17:27, 15 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Yeah, FWIW I think most of the current entries on the list are likely fine (with the only obvious exception to my knowledge being the Cuban heads of state). But our methodology should be to go straight from RS descriptions to entries, not to attempt to assess the specific political tendencies that these leaders/governments belong to and then infer which ones are pink tide governments. signed, Rosguill talk 17:50, 15 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]
True, changing to sources would make it easier, I think we wont find sources for the DR since all the big parties (PLD, PRM, FP, PRD) are quite similar and have a common origin and therefore you cannot speak of international waves Braganza (talk) 18:19, 15 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]
I'm inclined to agree with Braganza's suggestion on keep, remove and add. Regarding sources should be remembered that because of Onus probandi we should be able to source that someone is a part of the Pink Tide, not that someone isn't as you are not obligated to prove a negative. In that sense unless a reasonable number of reliable sources say so, the leader should be excluded by de-fault. In the cases above I only see one source supporting Lagos and Bachelet as pink tides and I can't read because is for suscription (I think there was a recent rule about non-free sources?) thus is pretty bleak at the moment. --Dereck Camacho (talk) 19:37, 15 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Speaking of which, are you fluent in other languages Braganza? Because it might be necessary to have the same discussion in the Spanish article for example. --Dereck Camacho (talk) 19:44, 15 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Sry, i don't speak spanish, it also seems to be ineffective because most of the users were either not logged in or (Ochentero) banned... [1] But i can try it with a translator Braganza (talk) 19:51, 15 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Comment: Thanks for the ping. The proposed list looks fine overall, but I have to join Rosguill and ask to be careful to make any changes unless here are reliable sources that support them to comply with the verifiability policy and prevent original research (which I can see is already currently noted in a tag in the article). Personally I'd only be reluctant to remove Bachelet, as from what I gather she's usually included as part of the pink tide. I'd also suggest to watch out for changes after 2010, since I understand that the pink tide is usually defined as a period up to the earl 2010s at most, without prejudice of expanding further on this in the Resurgence section. --NoonIcarus (talk) 01:51, 16 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Ok I think we are getting to some consensus. I would say we agree on keep the first column, remove most of the second column and add the third column based on rs.
Regarding Lagos and Bachelet I personally would remove them but can be re added if further sources are provided, but do not oppose keeping if others want to. Any thoughts? Dereck Camacho (talk) 19:06, 16 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]
how about if Lagos and Bachelet stay, but with the note that we already use for the Dominican presidents ("The XY in which AB belongs to has a centrist position.") Braganza (talk) 21:19, 16 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Could be, a similar case to Mel Zelaya, althoug Im still dubious on how left wing Bachelet and Lagos really were. Also if this depuration goes along all of them would end as left wing and non is center left which would make the dashes unnecessary. My other doubt is if the Castros and Diez sould be there, considering that they are clearly not part of any wave and are not "pink" either. Dereck Camacho (talk)---

I see that there are indeed references that include Lagos and Bachelet and see no problem with the inclusions of Surinam and St. Vicent.

I also see that the same discussion is taking place in Portuguese.

My only doubt bow is whether Cuba should be included, as someone puts it in Portuguese, is neither part of a wave nor pink. Anyone opposes removing it? For the opposite reason that the social democrats, is not moderate enough.

Also Braganza I think is ok for you to make the suggested changes on Spanish if no one comments. Dereck Camacho (talk) 02:16, 19 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]

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