Talk:Orania

The myth that Orania is a "whites only" enclave

The introductory paragraph states the following: "Orania is unique in that population is entirely white and Afrikaans-speaking"

This statement is not supported by the census data of the 2011 census quoted to provide the total population numbers and racial makeup of the town. Refer to http://census2011.adrianfrith.com/place/374003

I could not find a reference in Orania's own literature indicating that only white people are allowed in the town. The only references available describing Orania as white-only are media articles.

It seems like Orania is made up of people who self-identify as Afrikaners, irrespective of their race or home language as indicated by the census data noted above and Orania's own literature. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 134.159.131.34 (talk) 20:14, 1 December 2013 (UTC)

It seems like there is an interview process, so self-identification isn't sufficient. 196.210.239.154 (talk) 05:21, 3 March 2016 (UTC)

So it it your contention that the Afrikaners are not a homogeneous group of white persons? How would an Ethiopian become an Afrikaner? (PeacePeace (talk) 01:09, 26 July 2018 (UTC))

Back to the question of is Orania "whites only". There's two issues: Firstly, can non-white persons visit Orania? The answer is clearly yes. It is well documented Orania has received some very famous black visitors, including Nelson Mandela, Jacob Zuma, and Julius Malema. It's also received regular, non-famous visitors of color: for example, this article mentions several Black delegates at a Libertarian conference held at Orania. I've read accounts of neighboring coloured and black residents shopping at Orania.

The other question is, can a non-White person become a permanent resident of Orania? There are plenty of sources that claim Orania is "whites only" although this is not expressed in any official website or communication from Orania. There are also some references to handful of non-Afrikaner people residing in Orania, for example here.

I would conclude that people of all races can and do visit Orania, and that although thus far only white people have taken up residence there, there is no official prohibition on non whites from residing in Orania. SONORAMA (talk) 22:09, 26 July 2018 (UTC)

OR. Drmies (talk) 02:10, 5 October 2018 (UTC)

Yeah, they can't do that because it's illegal. But i would assume it's pretty fucking obvious they don't really like non-whites.

References

Shareholding

It seems like shareholding - and by extension voting rights on the "town council" (seems to actually be a board of directors) - is conferred by owning property, not by being a resident (as the "Application process" section currently state.) (I.e. a tenant without property does not seem to have a shareholding and voting rights are proportional to the shareholding, which is determined by the property owned)

The current information is properly sourced though and mainly primary sources can be found with more accurate information. (The shares block control actwould be one possible source and their website another) 196.210.239.154 (talk) 05:17, 3 March 2016 (UTC)

Origin of 'Vluytjeskraal'

The article says that the name Orania is derived from the Orange river, but the origin of the earlier name is not given. Zacwill (talk) 13:01, 4 May 2016 (UTC)

External links modified (January 2018)

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Obtuse Sentence requires revision

Article states, "all are Protestant, with except Maranata which is . . . ."

1) the word "Maranata" is introduced, apparently out of parallelism with the preceding context. What on earth is "Maranata"? Someone needs to add explanatory statement(s).

2) "with except" is ungrammatical. Except is not a noun to be the object of the preposition with. Did the editor mean "with the exception of"? (PeacePeace (talk) 01:06, 26 July 2018 (UTC))

The syntax problem was an easy fix, and I take it "Maranata" refers to the name of the church. However, I do not see membership of the Charismatic Movement makes that church non-Protestant. I have left it, but it would be nice if someone could check the cited source and figure it out. Yngvadottir (talk) 19:01, 5 October 2018 (UTC)

GA Review

This review is transcluded from Talk:Orania, Northern Cape/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: Carabinieri (talk · contribs) 04:44, 13 October 2018 (UTC)

Hi, I'll be reviewing this and I'm sorry you had to wait so long for a review. I have not gone through the article in detail yet, but here are a few initial comments:

• In the lead, the claim "Anyone who defines themselves as an Afrikaner and identifies with Afrikaner ethnicity is welcome to live in Orania" is sourced to pages 68-69 of the Burg paper. I was unable to find the claim there.
• The way quotation marks are used is not in keeping with the Manual of Style.
• According to the "Reception" section, the town is widely considered a racist project, but this is not reflected in the ideology section. That makes that section read like a whitewash. I would suggest merging the two sections, since obviously not everyone agrees on what the town's true ideology is.--Carabinieri (talk) 06:22, 13 October 2018 (UTC)

@Carabinieri: Sorry for the delay. I tried to fix issues 1 and 3, and to deal with the quotations according to MOS:QUOTEMARKS.--eh bien mon prince (talk) 22:20, 31 October 2018 (UTC)

• Any update on this reviews progress? AIRcorn (talk) 22:26, 22 January 2019 (UTC)

Carabinieri (talk · contribs) has not been editing since November. Perhaps someone else could review the article?--eh bien mon prince (talk) 16:35, 28 January 2019 (UTC)

I will take over. I have few others I need to finish off first and other issues have come up at home that might impact my time a bit. Ping or leave a talk page message if I have not started this by the by the end of the weekend. AIRcorn (talk) 20:53, 29 January 2019 (UTC)

@Aircorn: only a couple of weekends late, but just a reminder of this PotentPotables ( talk ) 20:08, 9 February 2019 (UTC)

Sorry, I forgot about this. A GA of my own got taken up. I will start this as soon as I finish that one. AIRcorn (talk) 21:37, 9 February 2019 (UTC)

No problem, just making sure this one finally gets sorted out PotentPotables ( talk ) 22:55, 9 February 2019 (UTC)

New review

I was expecting just an ordinary town article, but this one is a bit interesting. So far I think it handles the controversial nature of the town well. Have started leaving comments below. Not all are required to pass GA. More to come later. AIRcorn (talk) 07:57, 20 February 2019 (UTC)

• According to its founders, the purpose of Orania is to create a town where the preservation of Afrikanerdom's cultural heritage is strictly observed and Afrikaner selfwerksaamheid ("self reliance") is an actual practice, not just an idea I wonder if it would be better introducing what Orania is before going into the purpose.
• All jobs, from management to manual labour, are filled only by Afrikaners; non-Afrikaner workers are not permitted to work unless they have skills no resident has. You talk about jobs, but it is not clear whether non-Afrikaners can live there.
• How is this enforced? It is local laws or is it a privately owned land or something else?
• Maybe move the map image up so it is visible when reading about the proposed reach.
• Carel Boshoff IV Is this another Boshoff?
• I feel the external reception could be a bit better organised. It is by no means terrible, but does jump around a bit. See Wikipedia:Copyediting reception sections for more details. It is also a bit odd having short paragraphs, followed by a long one and then back to short again.
• comparing it to a Clarens or Dullstroom of the Karoo I dn't think the "a" is supposed to be there. Also why the comparison? Because of their policies or just looks/atmosphere?
• The documentary image doesn't seem to fit in that section either. Unless there is context missing?
• The Orania region has been inhabited since about 30,000 years ago when Stone Age hunter-gatherers who lived a nomadic lifestyle there. Grammar
• During the same month, the people who still lived in Grootgewaagd were evicted, Was this by the Boshoff?
• In a conciliatory gesture, then-President Nelson Mandela visited the town This paragraph consists of a few different incidents, but they are not tied together well and lack some context. I feel more could probably be mentioned on Mandelas visit. Does the shooting have any resolution or lead to anything. Pretty much every sentence here needs to be expanded into its own paragraph or tied together better. There is no flow between them.
• The 2001 Census found 519 residents.[100] By 2003 local amenities included a holiday resort on the Orange River, a home for senior citizens, two schools, a private hospital and a growing agricultural sector.[25] How is this an aftermath of the court case? Would fit in better in the section above where it talks about numbers and conditions.
• A R5 million shopping centre, the Saamstaan-winkelsentrum, opened in 2006. Same with this paragraph. I wouldn't get too caught up on chronological order. It reads better following themes. Especially since you have made this a sub section.
• The writing on the map is hard to read.
• The town's territory originally covered 300 hectares (740 acres), and was expanded through a number of land acquisitions. What is the total land area now?
• White South Africans were the main population group at the time of the 2011 census, representing 97% of the total. Given what I read above I would have expected 100%. What are the other 3%? I feel they should be mentioned
• Population estimates for Orania, 1991 to 2017 Where does this come from
• voted against changes to the DRC Abbreviations should be linked to their first usage when they are spelt out (usually in brackets).

<<<--Placeholder to Legal framework--->>>

• In 2011, town rates for residents were between R1,500 and 2,000 per month. This doesn't really mean anything to me. Is that high or low compared to other towns?
• Frans de Klerk is the chief executive officerDoes the as of 2018 apply to him as well?
• Orania has its own municipal structure in the form of the Orania Representative Council It is a little confusing as this is linked under a different name above. Also my reading was that Vluytjeskraal was the municipal representation so not sure if this is contradictory or if it could be explained better.
• The four votes recorded for the Economic Freedom Fighters party in the 2014 election elicited a number of comments from South African media. Feel this needs more context. Is it a Black party?
• Being an Afrikaner is the most important criterion for admission.[4] Although there are news sources that claim that black or coloured people are not allowed to live in Orania,[18] the town's spokesman insists that there are no rules against admitting them as residents.Is this contradictory? Saw a sentence about Black Afrikaners in Afrikaners, is this what is meant? I take it there are currently none residing there. This is brought up on the talk page as well and may require a bit more explanation here on who can actually become a resident.
• to assist in the development of own institutions and the transfer of knowledge between the communities. Grammar seems off here
• While buildings from the Water Works era can rely on pre-existing utility connections, What is the Water Works era?
• You mention the number of student attending CSO, is it possible to get the number at Volkskool for comparison? Or at least some indication of which is the larger - or that they are both similar.
• File:Die Ora Orania.jpg is sourced to the Afrikanners wikipedia, but I don't feel that is good enough to establish that it is free to use. It should be sourced to where they got it from. The rest seem alright
• No obvious copy violations
• I feel this is an article where NPOV is going to be a concern. I am not South African so hopefully deemed neutral enough not to have any strong biases. Reading it I felt it was neither whitewashed or a hit piece. It provided criticism, but also was written in a style consistent with other town articles I have seen. Due weight can always be difficult to determine, but I feel this is within the spectrum allowed for a Good Article.
• The lead is a bit weak. It should probably be expanded on. Leads should summerise the article and this one is missing a few important details. I would expand on the existing paragraphs rather than add new ones.

Okay. An interesting article. Sorry it was so delayed in being reviewed. AIRcorn (talk) 20:07, 9 March 2019 (UTC)

I will give this one more week and then fail it if I get no response. AIRcorn (talk) 00:09, 1 April 2019 (UTC)

Aircorn, the nominator has just said on their talk page that they won't be doing any work on the nomination. Under the circumstances, I'd fail it now; unless you think that you'll get a last-minute response from someone in a WikiProject that you've pinged. I'm very sorry it's worked out this way; with luck someone will eventually come along and work on your points and ultimately renominated the article. BlueMoonset (talk) 16:22, 4 April 2019 (UTC)

• Failing AIRcorn (talk) 06:31, 10 April 2019 (UTC)

Population

Something is wrong with number of population now. Velirand (talk) 09:23, 6 November 2019 (UTC)

Revisions and vandalism of the introduction

In recent times the introduction of this article has changed many times, mostly due to vandalism. During these revisions the meaning of the introduction was changed significantly. Phrases that first portrayed the views of critics have been changed into the views of the village. The sequence of the introduction was also changed. These changes went without changes of sources. The sources still backed the old introduction.

Original introduction (from 2015 till the 28th of April 2020)

Changed introduction (after repeated vandalism, version 9th of June 2020)

Orania is an Afrikaner town in South Africa located along the Orange River in the Karoo region of the Northern Cape province. The town is split in two halves by the R369 road and lies halfway between Cape Town and Pretoria. The aim of the town is to create a stronghold for Afrikaans and the Afrikaner identity by keeping their language and culture alive. Anyone who defines themselves as an Afrikaner and identifies with Afrikaner ethnicity is welcome to live in Orania. Critics accuse the town authorities of rejecting the Rainbow Nation concept and trying to recreate pre-democratic South Africa within an enclave, while residents contend the desire to preserve their linguistic and cultural heritage and protect themselves from high crime levels as their motivation, claiming the right to self-determination as provided by the Constitution of South Africa. The town's relations with the South African government are non-confrontational, and although opposed to the aspirations of the community, it has recognised them as legitimate. [...]

Orania is an Afrikaner town in South Africa located along the Orange River in the Karoo region of the Free State province. The town is split in two halves by the R369 road and lies halfway between Cape Town and Pretoria. The town authority has rejected the Rainbow Nation concept, and tries to recreate pre-democratic South Africa within an enclave. The residents contend the desire to preserve their linguistic and cultural heritage, and protect themselves from high crime levels as their motivation, claiming the right to self-determination as provided by the Constitution of South Africa. The town's relations with the South African government are non-confrontational, and although opposed to the aspirations of the community, it has recognised them as legitimate. The town states that its aim is to ensure the survival of Afrikaners by keeping their language and culture alive. Furthermore, it contends that any person who defines themselves as an Afrikaner and identifies with Afrikaner ethnicity is welcome to live in Orania. [...]

Therefore, I changed the introduction back to its original text. I90Christian (talk) 18:32, 10 June 2020 (UTC)

@I90Christian:You're being intentionally misleading or willfully ignorant at best. What does the sources have to do with the order of paragraphs, first of all? And to claim that turning "The aim of the town" to "The Town states" is vandalism that is giving benefit of the doubt to the town is a complete misreading the language. By listing without the qualifying language "the aim" of the town as the first paragraph, you are merely making this article a soapbox for a lot of what the critics are rejecting. Please reconsider or reread. Thanks. Fixer23 (talk) 13:38, 15 June 2020 (UTC)

References

Unreliable Sources

Several sources that look unreliable to me were recently used to make changes in the article, especially in the Ideology and Purpose section:

• https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EG2OPwYFQ20: WP:SELFPUB and probably WP:COPYVIO, clip from a movie by Lauren Southern
• https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mSfhafvTP6w: YouTube clip of Carel Boshoff, not in English so I have no idea what they're even talking about.
• https://archive.is/AMtJP: Wrong citation style, along with the other archive.is links. They don't even mention what the archived source is. It's actually https://www.politicsweb.co.za/about/orania-and-the-third-reinvention-of-the-afrikaner-, a presentation by Carel Boshoff. The only discussion about politicsweb.co.za I could find on Wikipedia was back in 2018, which got no responses. They do not seem to list their team anywhere, and their about page is barren. This link, along with the next one, is used to support the statement that there is a 'war on Afrikaans education', which looks like a clear WP:NPOV violation.
• https://archive.is/9vJgM: This is also from politicsweb.co.za, seems to be the opinion of a Freedom Front Plus MP.
• https://mg.co.za/article/2014-11-13-brixton-to-orania-the-great-trek-of-the-irish-volunteer-monument/: Used to source a quotation by Quinton Diedrichs, an Orania resident, that 'The third Afrikaner is a new generation Afrikaner who understands the principle behind self-labour'.

There's also https://archive.is/0qQMK, which is actually https://citizen.co.za/news/1845755/it-is-war-on-afrikaans-education-in-gauteng/. This one looks more reliable than the others to me. They have a page listing their team, which includes editors. There might be others in there too, I only read the Ideology and Purpose section before writing this up.

I do not feel comfortable tackling this. I have no experience with the subject matter, these just stuck out to me as very unreliable citations when I read the article and made me immediately doubt the contents of that section.

HKraemer73 (talk) 12:01, 17 February 2021 (UTC)

Accord on Afrikaner self-determination

The legality of Orania is always questioned. Therefor it is important that the legal framework from the Accord on Afrikaner self-determination and Article 235 of the South African constitution be mentioned. Please stop deleting it.Johnmars3 (talk) 13:10, 17 April 2021 (UTC)

@Johnmars3: I have moved your comments to the appropriate page.

Reliable sources are used to show how important something is. Please cite a reliable source which directly explains that this is import. Do not use primary sources which don't mention Orania, as this would be original research. Wikipedia articles should not contain any original research. This article is not the place to make new legal arguments, it is a place to summarize reliable sources about existing arguments. Grayfell (talk) 18:57, 17 April 2021 (UTC)

I am not making an argument, doing original research or stating my interpretation/opinion. It is a well known fact that the FF+ got the ANC and NP to sign the interim accord which led to article 235 of the South African constitution. Article 235 g/tees the right of cultural groups to create their own independent areas. It is fundamental to the existence of Orania. I have linked the original signed interim accord from the SA government website. I have linked the constitution from the SA government website showing article 235, and I have linked the Accord on Afrikaner self-determination Wikipedia article. There ARE NO RELIABLE SOURCES in English about this. I can link Youtube discussions in Afrikaans, but what would be the point? Johnmars3 (talk) 03:43, 18 April 2021 (UTC)

I am trying to explain to you that you are doing original research. I appreciate that your intentions are good, but your edits are what matters, and your additions are a form of original research as Wikipedia uses the term. Even with sources, drawing a line from fact A to claim B is WP:SYNTH, which is a form of OR. In this case A is the WP:PRIMARY documents which do not mention Orania, and B is the claim that this is "fundamental to the existence of Orania". This is your own interpretation of the sources. It may be an accurate interpretation, but it's still original research unless you can cite a reliable source which also supports this position.

If reliable sources explain this connection, cite them. Those sources do not have to be in English and can be in any language at all, but they do have to be reliable. Youtube discussions are unlikely to meet WP:RS. Also consider that the lack of English sources might mean this isn't as much of a "well-known fact" as you believe it to be. Grayfell (talk) 18:20, 18 April 2021 (UTC)