Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Plants

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Pisonia Umbellifera

I was hoping for a review of this article, pisonia umbellifera, which I recently added a lot of detail. Is anyone able to edit, or add some more taxonomy information? Aliwright01(talk)

Goeppertia Nees vs Goeppertia Nees

What is the story on Goeppertia Nees? PoWO has a listing for an 1831 version (accepted, with 243 species), and an 1836 unaccepted version. What would be the best way to fix the current disambig at Goeppertia? Abductive (reasoning) 13:58, 3 May 2021 (UTC)

If we go with PoWO, Goeppertia is no longer treated as a synonym of Calathea, so:

• convert Goeppertia to an article about the genus, including a species list
• have a hatnote at Goeppertia re the Nees (1836) name as a synonym of Endlicheria
• adjust Calathea and its species list for the removal of Goeppertia and its species

It loks to me as though Nees von Esenbeck forgot he'd already used the name, because the 1836 protologue and species accounts are much more detailed than the 1831 material, but precedence rules. Peter coxhead (talk) 19:03, 3 May 2021 (UTC)

Gnetales v Gnetophyta

As I was reading the scientific literature, I noticed how many papers use the term "Gnetales" as a synonym of what Wikipedia calls Gnetophyta, while Wikipedia uses Gnetales to refer to the clade that contains Gnetum only. Should this be changed? Gnetales seems more common in the literature than Gnetophyta to refer to the clade containing the three genera. Hemiauchenia (talk) 20:25, 3 May 2021 (UTC)

@Hemiauchenia: as with other terms, like lycophytes vs. lycopsids, the rank and terminology varies greatly among sources. One issue to be considered is usage for fossil taxa: "gnetophyte" is used in some paleobotanical sources for a wider group than the extant genera, so there's another usage in which Gnetales = three extant genera + closely related extinct genera, Gnetophyta = gnetales + other extinct genera. But the paleobotanical literature is no more consistent than other sources. The truth, I think, is that without a consensus system like APG for angiosperms, there's no clear way to choose. Peter coxhead (talk) 12:44, 16 May 2021 (UTC)

Discussion at Talk:Ulmus parvifolia 'A. Ross Central Park' = Central Park Splendor

 You are invited to join the discussion at Talk:Ulmus parvifolia 'A. Ross Central Park' = Central Park Splendor#Requested move 13 May 2021. Shhhnotsoloud (talk) 12:25, 15 May 2021 (UTC)Template:Z48. Shhhnotsoloud (talk) 12:25, 15 May 2021 (UTC)

Category:Natural cultivars

I don't think this Category:Natural cultivars really makes sense to retain. The history of most cultivars, landraces, etc. is lost to time. And even a cultivar was found in nature, it almost certainly was subject to artificial selection, including the moment when it was found, and in the following generations. Abductive (reasoning) 04:21, 16 May 2021 (UTC)

(facepalm) - better to just use "selected form" or "hybrid". "natural cultivar" seems...odd Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 08:33, 16 May 2021 (UTC)

• I agree the category doesn't make sense. It should be deleted. Peter coxhead (talk) 12:31, 16 May 2021 (UTC)

As used it makes even less sense. It's been used mostly for wild apple and citrus species. A natural cultivar could be a spontaneous variant (forma) taken into cultivation, such as the various 'Alba/us/um' cultivars, but that's not what it's been used for. I suppose it should go to Categories for Deletion. Lavateraguy (talk) 13:39, 16 May 2021 (UTC)

I do not disagree with any of the above, but I do draw attention to the discussion amongst archaeologists over what is cultivation, agriculture, plant manipulation, and so on. Particularly here in Australia with Dark Emu and other popular works alerting the public to practices by Australian Aborigines in agriculture/plant and landscape manipulation. Two important things to summarize, people's relationship with plants is a continuum between pure luck foraging to the mega-greenhouse industrial agriculture, where does a category start (e.g. agriculture); and 2) people are not on some sort of "Ladder of progress", with some people on higher rungs, other on lower, think more of multiple pathways that have radiated from the dawn of life, trajectories that may then influence each other, a net rather than a tree. In regards to Category:Natural cultivars, this is linked because we have seen manipulation of "natural" plants that can be called cultivation: transplantation, digging over of the soil and so forth. But that is not what the category is about, so yes a proposal for deletion would not be opposed by me. Brunswicknic (talk) 14:27, 20 May 2021 (UTC)

Incorrectly italicized page titles

There have (always?) been issues with how {{Automatic taxobox}} handles the italicization of page titles for botanical ranks between genus and species, which require connecting terms. If left to the taxobox default, the title is fully italicized – like Banksia subser. Longistyles right now – even if DISPLAYTITLE: is present. Such titles can be forced to be correct by also using |italic_title=no and providing a correctly formatted value for |name= – as at Banksia subser. Banksia right now – but I am working on changes to {{Automatic taxobox}} which will, I hope, fix this, either automatically or in a simpler way. So this is just a note to say that if you see an incorrectly italicized page title of a plant article at these ranks, please leave it for now. Peter coxhead (talk) 19:26, 23 May 2021 (UTC)

Thanks PC. Brunswicknic (talk) 14:29, 24 May 2021 (UTC)

Plants of the World Online (mis)treatment of infraspecifics

In the course of doing other things, I downloaded all accepted infraspecific taxa listed on Plants of the World Online. I thought I'd share some of my findings. There are 37,646 accepted infraspecifics; 19,436 subspecies, 17,466 varieties, 398 forms, 306 nothosubspecies, 33 nothovarieties, 6 subvarieties, and 1 nothomorth (abbreviated nm., for those who are wondering). As has been remarked here before, POWO tends towards lumping, but in particular, they seem to accept only those infraspecifics that differ in their geographical distributions.

For laughs, I created stubs on the missing species that had the most subspecies; Hieracium hypochoeroides, 83, and varieties, Symplocos cochinchinensis, 22. A look at those stubs will reveal examples of a number of (what I regard as) pretty serious failings of the POWO listings:

1. They often neglect to include the nominate subtaxa. I am disinclined to add those since it verges on WP:OR. I feel that POWO employees need to be asked to correct this system-wide.
2. They "hide" synonyms on the infraspecific page(s), even under the forms. This is a major pain, as many people (including myself) have overlooked these synonyms, leading to incomplete Wikipedia articles.
3. The geographical information given in the main species' Distribution section does not jibe with the Distribution sections of the subtaxa; a particularly egregious example is Symplocos cochinchinensis, which has no subtaxa for some of the locations given in the main POWO listing, and has some subtaxa that range into Australia and the Pacific even though that is not mentioned in the main species listing. I have seen this problem in many listings, suggesting that is is systemic.

Anyway, if anybody want me to post some or all of the infraspecific dataset let me know. Abductive (reasoning) 09:02, 24 May 2021 (UTC)

How did you download the data? I can get the 37,646 accepted infraspecifics using the search, but that doesn't have geographic data. I've had very limited success using pykew and don't understand taxize. —  Jts1882 | talk  09:54, 24 May 2021 (UTC)

I don't know if there is a way to get the geo and syn data without looking at each listing, that's why it's a major pain. Abductive (reasoning) 12:16, 24 May 2021 (UTC)

I think it should be possible to get taxonomic, nomenclature and geographic information through the API. I just haven't been able to get pykew to work usefully. See this discussion for the limited progress I made.

I think the problem with hiding synonyms is because they are following standard taxonomic practice which doesn't work well with a web interface. In a book the infraspecifics and their synonyms would be listed as part of the species entry, not hived off on separate pages. They need to improve the interactivity of the species page. —  Jts1882 | talk  13:14, 24 May 2021 (UTC)

My understanding from correspondence with them before the UK lockdown is that it's known that the database underlying PoWO needs consolidating; it's still relatively new. I think that there haven't been full consistency checks between subtaxa and the parent taxon. You also find cases where the parent taxon (genus or species) lists subtaxa, but when you click on them they are marked as "unplaced". The reverse is also true: there are subtaxa, including species, marked as "unplaced" that aren't listed at the parent. Peter coxhead (talk) 15:51, 24 May 2021 (UTC)

IPNI doesn't include nominate subtaxa. I suspect this is because they aren't really "published" in the usual way. With POWO's IDs being forked from IPNI, I'm not surprised that POWO lacks nominate subtaxa. Plantdrew (talk) 16:54, 24 May 2021 (UTC)

Exactly. So long as they only use IPNI IDs, they can't include nominate infraspecific taxa. WCSP does list them, e.g. Narcissus assoanus subsp. assoanus, which is interesting because the two supposedly use the same underlying database. Peter coxhead (talk) 17:10, 24 May 2021 (UTC)

They seem to include the nominate subtaxa when they want (or need) to attach synonyms or geographic info to them. Abductive (reasoning) 20:59, 24 May 2021 (UTC)

So, how best to proceed? I've made another stub, Anthemis cretica, with the same problems. Can anyone repair it? Or is it okay as it is? Abductive (reasoning) 08:02, 25 May 2021 (UTC)

Help on article about Dampiera altissima

Hi guys! I’m a uni student working on the article for Dampiera altissima for an assignment, could anyone have a look over it in the next couple of days? Thank you! TheRealDinosaur222 (talk) 10:06, 24 May 2021 (UTC)

URGENT: Help on article about Atriplex semibaccata

Hi Wiki authors!! I am a university student working on improving the article for Atriplex semibaccata for an assignment due in a couple days. I would really appreciate if anyone can have a look over the article and recommend suggestions. I am aiming to write an additional 1000 words to improve the article class by the due date (28th May). I greatly appreciate your time and effort. Thank you!!Hippocrates1354 (talk) 06:40, 25 May 2021 (UTC)

Articles for a monotypic genus

On WP I believe that the correct procedure for an article on a species which is the only species within a genus is to name the article with the genus name only, and then describe the species within that article. My query is about Wikidata and how to link the article to it. Wikidata may hold records for both the genus and the species, so which data item should the WP article link to, and which short description should the editor use? Case in point (one I have just edited and now seeking clarification): the article Idiospermum is linked to the wikidata item for the species, not the genus, yet the article is named for the genus. I have matched the short description to the wikidata species item, but is there a preferred/recommended method for this kind of thing? −  Junglenut | talk  10:41, 25 May 2021 (UTC)

@Junglenut: unfortunately (and wrongly in my view) Wikidata insists on a 1:1 relationship between a Wikidata item and an article in a language wiki. (If you're interested, I've written more at User:Peter coxhead/Wikidata issues.) The best approach generally seems to be to link to the Wikidata item with the most links from other wikis. If the genus and species items have the same number of linked articles, I would use the genus item, because the titles are the same, but it doesn't matter either way. Peter coxhead (talk) 19:14, 25 May 2021 (UTC)

Old Commons photo id question solved

@Lavateraguy and Plantsurfer: if you remember Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Plants/Archive72#Commons photos identification, the best we came up with was possibly some species of Salvia for 3 photos incorrectly identified as Nematanthus fritschii. Leo 86.83.56.115 has now identified these as commons:Category:Scutellaria incarnata (we don't have an article). I've categorized them there and requested moving. Peter coxhead (talk) 19:06, 25 May 2021 (UTC)