Talk:Gender dysphoria

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This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 1 July 2019 and 23 August 2019. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): Kylett1, Inshaqari.

Above undated message substituted from Template:Dashboard.wikiedu.org assignment by PrimeBOT (talk) 21:38, 17 January 2022 (UTC)

Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment

This article is or was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment in Spring 2019. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): Kam.peyton. Peer reviewers: Mbmogan.

Above undated message substituted from Template:Dashboard.wikiedu.org assignment by PrimeBOT (talk) 22:07, 16 January 2022 (UTC)

On "treatment," "biological treatments," and "sex reassignment surgery"

I'm skeptical about using the term "treatments:" for one, it implies that there is something about being transgender or gender non-conforming that needs to be "fixed," that there is an inherent abnormality about being trans. When it relates to "psychological treatments," perhaps it can be rephrased to "psychological intervention" or "psychological mediation." In this respect, not every change a trans individual elects to undergo is a "biological" treatment—they are not changing their sex.

Also, we may need to update the term "transexualism." While there are individuals who use that term, it is quite outdated and excludes those who choose not to medically transition, bringing up issues of transmedicalist rhetoric that promote the idea that you must undergo surgery and hormone replacement therapy to be considered trans (when the criteria is simply to not resonate with your assigned gender at birth)

Regarding "sex reassignment surgery:" this is an outdated term, and, as stated above, surgery does not alter one's sex. A more appropriate and liked term at present is gender affirming surgery, since it helps align the individual more to their desired body. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Swimfly814 (talk • contribs) 16:25, 11 February 2022 (UTC)

The treatments do, however, treat "the distress a person feels due to a mismatch between their gender identity...and their sex assigned at birth", which is what gender dysphoria is. The article already recognizes via separate headings that not all treatments are biological.

I don't see where the term "transsexual" and derived terms needs to be replaced. Unless I missed it, it seems to be used when referring to specific statements from the past in which changing it would change the meaning and misrepresent the source.

"Sex reassignment surgery" is still the WP:COMMONNAME. See this discussion. Crossroads ^-talk- 16:15, 12 February 2022 (UTC)

I agree with Crossroads here. While being transgender or GNC is not something that needs to be fixed, the term treatments does not imply that and is also the term used by medical sources. Also, removing the term transsexual from In December 2002, the British Lord Chancellor's office published a Government Policy Concerning Transsexual People document that categorically states, "What transsexualism is not ... It is not a mental illness.", for example, would misrepresent the source and be very unencyclopedic in my opinion. A. C. Santacruz ⁂ Please ping me! 18:03, 12 February 2022 (UTC)

@Swimfly814 - You raise important points and concerns, and experts have been debating these issues for many years. So take solace that you are not alone, and, if I may be so bold, peruse the literature to enhance your understanding of the ongoing discussions. The article (Gender dysphoria) summarizes some of the debates with cited references that might serve as a good jumping off place for further study. Mark D Worthen PsyD (talk) [he/him] 05:28, 13 February 2022 (UTC)

References

Social dysphoria

Why is there no mention of social dysphoria in this article? Aren't there any academic studies confirming social dysphoria to be a type of gender dysphoria? Nonbinary individuals often mention feeling primarily social dysphoria regarding their identitities. I really don't see how anyone can say that Nonbinary individuals aren't experiencing dysphoria, even if that dysphoria isn't necessarily physical, for instance. 2601:98A:400:8910:60FE:DB:5205:9E81 (talk) 03:10, 6 March 2022 (UTC)

"Social dysphoria" as, like, a counterpart to bodily dysphoria or something? I've never encountered "social dysphoria" in the psychiatric literature (although I am not an expert), but the DSM makes it pretty clear that the distress can be focused on social factors or focused on physiology. So what I'm saying is "social dysphoria" is dysphoria, but the literature makes no distinction between social dysphoria and other dysphoria, it's all one thing. Do you think this article implies otherwise? If so, perhaps more emphasis on social factors is needed. Of the universe (talk) 08:03, 11 March 2022 (UTC)

I have also not encountered much psychiatric literature on social dysphoria, but it is very much a well know and understood term in the trans community. Social and body dysphoria are often co-morbid, but are still distinctly separate experiences (with social dysphoria manifesting through feelings of discomfort based on how one—or one's gender— is perceived by others). I'm also wondering if the page would benefit from a mention/acknowledgement that not every trans individual experiences dysphoria. Again, there's not much literature on this idea, but there has been a push to steer away from gatekeeping the trans experience in the last few years. Swimfly814 (talk) 14:50, 16 March 2022 (UTC)

re: not every trans individual experiences dysphoria, I didn't realize this wasn't in the article. I agree it should be in the article, probably in the lede. Psychiatric sources wise, the DSM basically explicitly states as much, although the wording is a bit opaque: "Gender dysphoria refers to the distress that may accompany the incongruence between one's experienced or expressed gender and one's assigned gender. Although not all individuals will experience distress as a result of such incongruence..." (emphasis added). Of the universe (talk) 17:27, 17 March 2022 (UTC)

@Swimfly814, I found a more explicit source, so I went ahead and added it to the article. According to the APA, "Not all transgender or gender diverse people experience dysphoria." Of the universe (talk) 17:56, 17 March 2022 (UTC)

References

Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment

This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 24 January 2022 and 13 May 2022. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): Nataliiemacias (article contribs). Peer reviewers: Ashleyjenkins2002. — Preceding unsigned comment added by ACHorwitz (talk • contribs) 18:34, 11 March 2022 (UTC)

Conscious Terminology Resource: Conscious Style Guide

Just wanted to drop in a potential resource to use when we're thinking about how wording and framing can aid in harm reduction. Here's the about page: https://consciousstyleguide.com/about/ and a reference page for gender, sex, and sexuality terminology: https://consciousstyleguide.com/gender-sex-sexuality/ that I have found to be beneficial. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Swimfly814 (talk • contribs) 14:30, 16 March 2022 (UTC)

Citation does not support statement

"It is common for people assigned male at birth who have late-onset gender dysphoria to cross-dress with sexual excitement."

This statement cites the DSM-5 section on gender dysphoria, but upon reading it, it says nothing of the sort. I propose deletion — Preceding unsigned comment added by Snokalok (talk • contribs) 03:29, 4 April 2022 (UTC)

I can't find that anywhere either. EvergreenFir (talk) 03:46, 4 April 2022 (UTC)

Courtesy ping for Crossroads who re-added it most recently after a removal a few months ago. Firefangledfeathers (talk | contribs) 03:53, 4 April 2022 (UTC)

I looked on an archived copy of the first page of the cited section of the DSM V as well as other secondary sources outlining symptoms and saw nothing of erotic/fetish crossdressing for teens/adults. EvergreenFir (talk) 04:13, 4 April 2022 (UTC)

It's definitely in the DSM-5, but a few pages in. Google Books isn't cooperating with me this time. I will request the relevant section from DSM-5-TR (an updated version) from WP:RX. Crossroads ^-talk- 06:41, 4 April 2022 (UTC)

Found it on page 456 of DSM-5: Adolescents and adults with late-onset gender dysphoria frequently engage in transvestic behavior with sexual excitement.

It's definitely something we should check as to whether or not it's in the DSM-5-TR. Sideswipe9th (talk) 13:06, 4 April 2022 (UTC)

The statement appears in the DSM-5-TR, though more equivocally: on page 520 in the GD section, In some cases of postpubertal-onset gender dysphoria in individuals assigned male at birth who are attracted to women, cross-dressing with sexual excitement is a precursor to the diagnosis of gender dysphoria. (emphasis mine). Will send to both of you via email, just a sec. —0xf₈e₈ 💿 (talk) 16:26, 4 April 2022 (UTC)

Received that through now. Thanks.

Based on this, I think we do need to change the statement slightly. Not only to address the change between "common" and "some cases" but also the qualifier on sexuality re "attracted to women" which was introduced in the revised text. Sideswipe9th (talk) 16:48, 4 April 2022 (UTC)

Actually there may be more that needs reviewing. The information that is cited to Guillamon, Junque, and Gomez with respect to attraction to men/women in late-onset individuals doesn't appear to have a corresponding note within the DSM-5-TR. I don't have time to look into this now, so I'm just leaving a note here for anyone who also has access to confirm please. Sideswipe9th (talk) 16:58, 4 April 2022 (UTC)

There may be more to update based on the TR edition, but for now I brought back a revised version in accord with your comment above, so the initial matter here appears settled at least. Crossroads ^-talk- 03:12, 5 April 2022 (UTC)

The research upon which DSM-5 bases that statement, conducted in the 1970s and 1980s, has not been cross-validated in a persuasive manner. But the statement is in the DSM, which trumps almost any evidence-based argument to the contrary. Mark D Worthen PsyD (talk) [he/him] 04:54, 6 April 2022 (UTC)

If you have a reliable source that says as much, it's worth including. Of the universe (talk) 16:38, 7 April 2022 (UTC)

Certainly the first part of what @Markworthen: has said is verifiable. In the text of the DSM-5-TR, that sentence cites only Ray Blanchard's Topology of male-to-female transsexualism (link to Wiki article, DOI citation), specifically chapter 14, pages 247-261 if anyone wants to read it. The inclusion of it in the (original) DSM-5 was controversial, and it has received significant criticism both for its terminology and by the transgender community. As for the later half, re cross-validation, I'm not immediately familiar with any academic sources asserting this, but I can't rule it out either. Sideswipe9th (talk) 18:11, 7 April 2022 (UTC)

Thank you Of the universe and Sideswipe9th for your helpful feedback and additional insights (Sideswipe9th). I'll try to dig into this some more - in my initial literature search, I could not find any cross-validation studies but I could have missed something. Mark D Worthen PsyD (talk) [he/him] 20:25, 7 April 2022 (UTC)

On a more general note, there are some questionable practices regarding re-use of datasets by some of the more prominent researchers in this topic area. If you haven't already, you may wish to check papers by Florence Ashley, Kelley Winters, and Julia Temple Newhook. While the work I'm familiar with from them is in the area of desistance rates, in response to improper use of datasets by Kenneth Zucker and Thomas Steensma, they may have also published research into some of Blanchard's claims. Sideswipe9th (talk) 20:50, 7 April 2022 (UTC)

It may also be worth checking the WPATH 8 SoC, if you have access to the draft chapters (release date was delayed), as it may have relevant info for this point. Sideswipe9th (talk) 21:03, 7 April 2022 (UTC)