Talk:Knowledge

Untitled

This article covers many aspects of knowledge. For the philosophical areas of knowledge please use epistemology.

Wrong knowledge is still knowledge

"Complementary to the sociology of knowledge is the sociology of ignorance including the study of nescience, ignorance, knowledge gaps or non-knowledge as inherent features of knowledge making."

References

"Awareness" hyperlink has been removed

"Awareness" was originally the first descriptive link. Is it possible to reinstate this as was initially in place? Etaripcisum (talk) 19:03, 27 December 2017 (UTC)

No. We're not here to play silly games; cut out the disruptive editing. ElKevbo (talk) 19:15, 27 December 2017 (UTC)

Indeed. Paul August ☎ 19:18, 27 December 2017 (UTC)

No, that link was not helpful. Pichpich (talk) 20:52, 27 December 2017 (UTC)

The removal of this link has broken the phenomenon of "Getting to Philosophy" by clicking the first link in every page. I'd argue that removing it has removed an integral part of Wikipedia community. KalleJoKI (talk) 15:43, 9 August 2020 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 23 October 2019

one dead link found plz add my website link https://www.technical-education.com/ Talimam (talk) 18:25, 23 October 2019 (UTC)

 Not done: WP:ELNO. —KuyaBriBri^Talk 18:35, 23 October 2019 (UTC)

Knowledge > Understanding

Wikipedia defines knowledge as a understanding, but it isn't the same thing. Knowledge needs to be revised to exclude understanding. Eliasladd (talk) 21:46, 22 April 2020 (UTC)

I was going to mention this as well, as new to editing I am not sure what to do apart from talk. — Preceding unsigned comment added by DannyHatcher (talk • contribs) 12:13, 6 November 2021 (UTC)

You could propose something else! :) Make a specific proposal of a sentence you want to change and your new formulation (with sources). Also be aware that the lead paragraphs (see WP:LEAD) are just a summary of the article. Best — Mvbaron (talk) 12:22, 6 November 2021 (UTC)

That makes sense. Makes my question seem silly know but will get to something :) User:DannyHatcher 6 November 2021

Don't worry DannyHatcher! feel free to either (i) work on the text in your sandbox, or (ii) propose something here, or (iii) be WP:BOLD and edit the article directly. -- Mvbaron (talk) 08:46, 7 November 2021 (UTC)

Using Knowledge

I would like the Knowledge page to have an encyclopedic section on Using Knowledge. I have added some intuitive content on good-knowledge vs bad-knowledge. I have connected this to a relevant source reference. I would like feedback from the community for this page to refine this section before it is boldly attacked by overzealous deleters.

Openyk (talk) 21:43, 25 October 2020 (UTC)

We rarely if ever include "intuitive content" in an encyclopedia article. If it's important enough to warrant inclusion in an encyclopedia article, it should be explicitly linked to high quality references. ElKevbo (talk) 22:06, 25 October 2020 (UTC)

If we hold the entire article up to that standard, I have a lot I can delete with justification, including the entire first paragraph, several sections, etc. simply because they have not been source-linked. What is your solution to someone deleting every sentence in Wikipedia without a source link? Official Wikipedia policy states that unsourced content should be improved-by-default, not deleted-by-default.

Openyk (talk) 00:26, 26 October 2020 (UTC)

See WP:POINT for why mass deletion of unsourced sentences is not to be encouraged. Also see Wikipedia:You don't need to cite that the sky is blue. Cheers, Just plain Bill (talk) 21:07, 2 November 2020 (UTC)

Truth/es accepted as knowledge/s ?

Are truthes knowledges or this question better to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epistemology ? --Visionhelp (talk) 20:21, 16 January 2021 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 31 January 2021

subject The subject of science is what discussed in that science معین پورصادق (talk) 10:33, 31 January 2021 (UTC)

Not clear what change you are asking for -----Snowded ^TALK 10:41, 31 January 2021 (UTC)

Typo suggestion

In the wikiproject table found in external link section, it says small "knowledge" and must begin with capital letter "Knowledge". 196.188.240.85 (talk) 16:20, 24 February 2021 (UTC)

Done, thanks! Just plain Bill (talk) 16:42, 24 February 2021 (UTC)

Mandaeism

Aramaic manda means "knowledge," and is conceptually related to the Greek term gnosis. This means the Mandaeans or 'knowers' are the only surviving Gnostics from antiquity. Mandaeans also refer to themselves as Nasurai (Nasoraeans) meaning guardians or possessors of knowledge. This has a clear connection to the religious concept of knowledge. As a Gnostic religion, "Mandaeanism stresses salvation of the soul through esoteric knowledge of its divine origin." (Encyclopedia Britannica) Mcvti (talk) 17:31, 8 February 2022 (UTC)

SO we just had a section on Gnostics added and I left that; this is a summary level article after all. If anything the religions section is getting disproportionate anyway and we can't list every group and sect that uses the knowledge word or makes a knowledge claim. So while Gnosticism deserves a mention I can't see a case for Mandaeism being notable enough for inclusion -----Snowded ^TALK 17:48, 8 February 2022 (UTC)

Mandaeism has a greater connection to the religious concept of knowledge than all the other religions that are already listed since it is literally their namesake. If the most important aspect of a religion is knowledge in order to achieve salvation, that is more than enough to be notable in order to be included in the list of religions. I was actually surprised it was not already listed Mcvti (talk) 18:00, 8 February 2022 (UTC)

OK that is your opinion, but you've already said it is a subset of Gnosticism, Have you got a third party source which establishes its importance in the context of an article on Knowledge? -----Snowded ^TALK 18:15, 8 February 2022 (UTC)

• Jorunn Jacobsen Buckley, The Mandaeans: Ancient Texts and Modern People, New York: Oxford University Press 2002.

• Jorunn Jacobsen Buckley, The Great Stem of Souls: Reconstruction Mandaean History, Piscataway: Gorgias Press, 2005.
• Deutsch, Nathaniel (1999). Guardians of the Gate: Angelic Vice-regency in the Late Antiquity. BRILL. ISBN 9004109099.
• Ethel Stefana Drower, The Mandaeans of Iraq and Iran (1937), reprint: Piscataway: Gorgias Press, 2002.
• Ethel Stefana Drower, The Secret Adam: A Study of Nasoraean Gnosis, Oxford: Clarendon, 1960.
• Edmondo Lupieri, The Mandaeans: The Last Gnostics, Grand Rapids: Eerdmans, 2002.
• Rudolph, Kurt (1977). "Mandaeism". In Moore, Albert C. (ed.). Iconography of Religions: An Introduction. Vol. 21. Chris Robertson. ISBN 9780800604882.
• Rudolph, Kurt (2001-06-20). Gnosis: The Nature and History of Gnosticism. A&C Black. pp. 343–366. ISBN 9780567086402.
• Andrew Phillip Smith, John the Baptist and the Last Gnostics: The Secret History of the Mandaeans, London: Watkins Publishing 2016.
• Edwin M. Yamauchi, Mandaic Incantation Texts (1967), reprint Piscataway: Gorgias Press, 2005.
• Edwin M. Yamauchi, Gnostic Ethics and Mandaean Origins (1970), reprint Piscataway: Gorgias Press, 2004.

They are a type of Gnosticism, in fact the only surviving Gnostic religion from antiquity. They can be listed under Gnosticism section and described if that would help solve the issue. Mcvti (talk) 18:27, 8 February 2022 (UTC)

You're just listing sources that talk about Manadaens and we don't accept original research or interpretation or synthesis of primary sources. Request was for a third party source which says in some way, that their take on knowledge has high significance -----Snowded ^TALK 18:35, 8 February 2022 (UTC)

If you looked at the sources, they all discuss the importance of knowledge in Mandaeism as a key aspect of the religion. Please do not accuse me of providing original research which is false. I have provided enough references to show the significance of the religious concept of knowledge in Mandaeism. I have even offered to add them under Gnosticism which you did not acknowledge. I find you will continue to make excuses not to add them showing you do not have a neutral point of view on the topic. Mcvti (talk) 19:02, 8 February 2022 (UTC)

I'm not aware of disputing the importance of knowledge in Mandaeism. I am saying that you have not offered any source which establishes that Mandaeism's take on knowledge has any special notability. We have brief descriptions of major religions perspectives which can be justified and I'm OK with Gnosticism being added. If you think it should be a part of Gnosticism then again we need a source that shows it is notable. If you can't source it then it doesn't go in - and please don't speculate on my motivation that really doesn't help -----Snowded ^TALK 19:14, 8 February 2022 (UTC)

Britanicca says it's a "Gnostic sect" and says its origins are disputed. Also it is very much a minor sect. Nothing to support your claims for notability. Either way its tagged - I'll give it a day or so and if there is no new evidence or work on gaining a consensus I'll restore the article to its previous consensus position -----Snowded ^TALK 19:47, 8 February 2022 (UTC)

This is not original research so the tag you applied does not belong there. Reliable sources have already been cited. Being the only surviving Gnostic religion from antiquity makes it very much notable. From Mandaeism, the religion is at least 2000 years old and scholars specializing in the religion believe it originated in the Palestine / Israel region. The renowned scholar of Mandaeism Jorunn J. Buckley believes Mandaeism is of Judean or Israelite origin. I don't understand the rationale behind refusing to mention the last surviving Gnostics with a few sentences under Gnosticism backed up by reliable sources and pertinent to the religious concepts of knowledge. Are you questioning the origins of the religion or whether you recognize them as a religion and worthy of being mentioned or the relevance of the religious concept of knowledge to the religion. In any case, you do not have consensus to remove the section and I advise you to look at some of the sources I listed to get a better understanding of how important the concept of knowledge or gnosis (manda) is to the religion. Mcvti (talk) 05:04, 9 February 2022 (UTC)

I provided a third party source which said it is a minor sect and the origins are disputed. You are arguing a position from primary/secondary sources which is original research. You are also failing to follow normal practice you were bold, you were reverted, you now discuss you don't assert you are right without gaining consensus. You do not remove tags without agreement. Without a source establishing NOTABILITY the material will be deleted and if you restore it without consensus on the talk page you will be reported for edit warring. I will repeat that I am not disputing knowledge is relevant to an article on the religion but I don't think that the religion is notable enough for this article and it certainly fails any test of balance.-----Snowded ^TALK 07:16, 9 February 2022 (UTC)

I've just gone through the discussion above. I've read through dozens of sources about Mandaeism and will be happy to share a few of my observations and thoughts.

• This is definitely not original research.
• The sentences are correct and do not reach original conclusions from WP:SYNTH.
• Manda does indeed mean 'knowledge' and/or 'gnosis'. I am familiar with Mandaic and can confirm this.
• Mandaeism is certainly not a non-notable minor sect. It is one of the major ancient religions of Mesopotamia and western Persia and is absolutely crucial to understanding the origins of Christianity, Islam, and Manichaeism. See for example Psalms of Thomas#Mandaean parallels. Mandaeans form one of the most notable Gnostic groups. If most scholars had to pick and choose a few notable notable Gnostic groups to analyze, they would be Mandaeism, Manichaeism, Nag Hammadi Gnosticism, and Catharism. The Gnostic Archive at gnosis.org also has dedicated collections for these groups, but not for the other truly minor sects. The less notable Gnostic sects are the Elkasites, Quqites, and dozens of other minor groups that were only given passing mentions in historical sources; and of course, certainly not neo-Gnostic New Age groups. If someone were to write a paragraph making spurious claims about the Quqites in this article, then I would keep the OR tag, but basic facts about Mandaeism are all right.
• There is wide consensus among historians of religion that Mandaeism is in fact the only surviving Gnostic religion, although Gnosticism itself is a fuzzy category. Its importance and comparative notability have been confirmed by nearly all scholars of Mandaeism, including Torgny Säve-Söderbergh and Jorunn Jacobsen Buckley. I would actually pick Manichaeism, Mandaeism, and Nag Hammadi Gnosticism to include if I were to choose just a few Gnostic religions to mention in this article.

Verdict: Mcvti's contributions look fine to me. These are basic facts mentioned in multiple existing articles and are not fringe theories, and they are also notable enough to mentioned. Nebulousquasar (talk) 18:17, 9 February 2022 (UTC)

Well its hardly a 'verdict' when the pair of you are active on articles about this particular sect. The one third party source I have found says that it is a minor sect - third party sources are what we use here. In the context of this article, each major religion gets a couple of lines and that we have for the Gnostics. We are not mentioning any of the sects - look at the one of Christianity, it doesn't even distinguish between Catholic and Protestant. You have to establis weight through citations and nothing in what you say above does that. -----Snowded ^TALK 18:43, 9 February 2022 (UTC)

Thanks to Snowded for keeping a close eye on this article and closely analyzing everything though, or otherwise these kinds of articles would be bombarded with random spurious or non-notable claims by barely mentioned minor historical sects, or small New Age fringe groups. However, Mandaeism is certainly not one of them. We're not talking about Martinism or Knight Templars here. Mandaeism is in no way a minor fringe sect, as "third-party" Protestant Christian scholars such as Edwin Yamauchi and many others clearly state. Another "third party": Even Islamic scholars have clearly listed Mandaeans among the People of the Book, a category that does not include the many hundreds of minor religious sects out there. Nebulousquasar (talk) 18:48, 9 February 2022 (UTC)

Well as I say the one third party (please note THIRD party) says it is a minor sect (not a fringe). Whatever it is a part of Gnosticism and doesn't deserve singling out. Each major religion gets a couple of lines. There is no reason to single out one Gnostic approach over the others. And by the way Mcvti has now broken the rule on canvassing by asking you to support him here -----Snowded ^TALK 18:52, 9 February 2022 (UTC)

In general, it is perfectly acceptable to notify other editors of ongoing discussions, provided that it be done with the intent to improve the quality of the discussion by broadening participation to more fully achieve consensus.

An editor who may wish to draw a wider range of informed, but uninvolved, editors to a discussion can place a message at any of the following:

The talk page or noticeboard of one or more WikiProjects or other Wikipedia collaborations which may have interest in the topic under discussion. A central location (such as the Village pump or other relevant noticeboards) for discussions that have a wider impact such as policy or guideline discussions. The talk page of one or more directly related articles.

• On the talk pages of a user mentioned in the discussion (particularly if the discussion concerns complaints about user behavior).
• On the user talk pages of concerned editors. Examples include:
• Editors who have made substantial edits to the topic or article
• Editors who have participated in previous discussions on the same topic (or closely related topics)
• Editors known for expertise in the field

Copied from Wikipedia:Canvassing

WP:POVRAILROAD (Unsubstantiated accusations of canvassing) Mcvti (talk) 18:58, 9 February 2022 (UTC)

I rest my case - this article is about Knowledge not a Gnostic sect but it won't be me that makes the call. Please focus on trying to find an argument on source that satisfies the requirements of WP:WEIGHT -----Snowded ^TALK 19:00, 9 February 2022 (UTC)

I think a compromise will be good. I don't want to take sides or get into edit wars. Although it might be great to expand the paragraph about Mandaeism, I think we should keep it as and not continue expanding it in order to make sure that we meet WP:WEIGHT requirements. Maybe a few more sentences about Manichaeism and Nag Hammadi Gnosticism can balance things out, and we shouldn't include unnecessary details about Mandaeism. Thanks for everyone's comments. Nebulousquasar (talk) 19:07, 9 February 2022 (UTC)

An "additional citations" tag might be more relevant than the OR tag, but I'll leave that up to the other editors. Let's just leave it at here for now. Nebulousquasar (talk) 19:09, 9 February 2022 (UTC)

And I tagged rather than get into an edit war when Mcvti broke WP:BRD. I'm open to a descrition of Gnostic approaches to knowledge which is no longer than those for Islam and Christianity. -----Snowded ^TALK 19:54, 9 February 2022 (UTC)

Reset

This is the position as I understand it

1. This article is about Knowledge and has a section showing how major religions have treated that subject. These are brief descriptions of a few sentences and none of the entries has included different sect positions - for example the differences between Aquinas and Agustine in Christianity are not mentioned event though they had major implications in the Western Intellectual Tradition. The Islam section does not talk about Sufi, Shi'a and Sunni perspectices.
2. All of the references and statements given above relate to the etymology of the name of the religion and discussions about the significance of Mandaeism in the history of Gnisticism. All of that may be right (or otherwise if you believe Britanicca) but none of it is relevant here. Just because something is referenced doesn't mean that it is included
3. The proposal is to expand the Gnositic section to include one sect, its not clear why and Manichæism is probably better known, but that is beside the poin: no other entry for any religion containts details about individual sects or perspectices
4. No sources or material or argument has been advanced as to why the Gnostic section should be larger than for other religions or why different sects should be explicitly mentioned when they are not in the other entries

So - I have not disputed the addition of a section on Gnosticism but I am disputing giving privilege to one sect in that entry, and I am very dubious as to if any sect should be mentioned.

Per standard practice I have restored to the previous stable text to allow discussion takes place; the onus is on those proposing an addition to justify the new material. If we can't reach agreement then we call an RfC although this really is a minor issue but that is proper process, not edit warring.

Those who want to insert this material need to make a case about why a Gnostic sect deserves unique treatment in this article. I repeat, no other entry for more significant religions is treated in that way -----Snowded ^TALK 07:54, 10 February 2022 (UTC)

I don't have much time today for discussion, but I see a problem with the way the religions are listed. You have a Dharmic religion (Hinduisim), three Abrahamic religions (Judaism, Christianity, Islam) and Gnosticism which is not a religion by itself, but rather a type or category of religions, however no Gnostic religion(s) are listed. Mcvti (talk) 21:34, 10 February 2022 (UTC)

A good solution would be to either remove Gnosticism and add Mandaeism and perhaps Manichaeism instead as separate religions, or put Christianity, Islam and Judaism under Abrahamic religions and add Mandaeism and Manichaeism under Gnosticism. Hinduism would be under Indian (Dharmic) religions. Mcvti (talk) 00:32, 11 February 2022 (UTC)

I think editors would be open to rethinking it, but we need to remember that its not an article about religion, its about knowledge. The vast majority of readers will not really be aware of the 'three religions of the book' and anyway views on knowledge are not defined by origin. They will understand the major world religions listed there. The issue and test is significance to this article, not significance in the study of religion. We also need third party sources to establish significance and there we have an problem with giving any prominence to Mandaeanism. To quote in full from the Enclyopedia Britannica "Mandaeanism, (from Mandaean mandayya, “having knowledge”), ancient Middle Eastern religion still surviving in Iraq and Khuzistan (southwest Iran). The religion is usually treated as a Gnostic sect; it resembles Manichaeism in some respects. Whereas most scholars date the beginnings of Mandaeanism somewhere in the first three centuries AD, the matter of its origin is highly conjectural" -----Snowded ^TALK 07:26, 11 February 2022 (UTC)

Another idea could be to move the 'Religious concepts of knowledge' section into a separate article due its significance leaving this article to deal with the other aspects of knowledge. Mcvti (talk) 19:04, 11 February 2022 (UTC)

Worth looking at as an option, it would need a few good third party sources to create a structure -----Snowded ^TALK 09:58, 13 February 2022 (UTC)

Opening Statement

I removed the second sentence in the opening statement because it was a VERY DEEP philosophical statement that may be appropriate later in the article but doesn't really help elucidate the basic concept. Happy to discuss or be corrected. The statement might be appropriate later in the page, IMO. Alex Jackl (talk) 15:28, 21 April 2022 (UTC)