Talk:Hypothetical Axis victory in World War II

Proposed move to "World War II alternate histories"

One of the sources I found suggests that its not just Nazi victories which are popular in alternate history, but WWII pods in general. That makes some sense when you consider such works as the Worldwar series, the Axis of Time series, Command & Conquer: Red Alert and its sequels, the Days of Infamy series, The Iron Dream, Marching Through Georgia (novel), The Plot Against America, the Settling Accounts series (see also World War II in Timeline-191), The Yiddish Policemen's Union, etc. Zombie Hunter Smurf (talk) 15:43, 24 June 2009 (UTC)

I agree. Nick-D (talk) 07:22, 25 June 2009 (UTC)

I disagree: look at the Russians by iwiki. Nickpo (talk) 00:34, 26 June 2009 (UTC)

It also was written by you, which hey is not big deal but there is some sources that point toward WWII pods being popular by themselves. Zombie Hunter Smurf (talk) 01:13, 26 June 2009 (UTC)

Allies victory is the first thesis, Axis victory is another. I think both of them might to stay separate and autonomous. Popularity seems to be equal, there`re a lot of content for each for the article expanding. Any more problems? Nickpo (talk) 01:50, 26 June 2009 (UTC)

I'm not sure what you are getting at, when did the allied victory become an issue? You didn't address the fact that there are sources that say WWII pods in general are just as popular as Axis win or the fact there are a large number of non-Axis win works of fiction set in World War II. Zombie Hunter Smurf (talk) 03:18, 26 June 2009 (UTC)

Starship Troopers

Another editor has (correctly) removed this item:

• Starship Troopers (1997) - Though not stated outright in the film itself, Verhoeven has stated that it is set in a Universe where the Nazis won World War II and conquered the world.

As it is uncited and is making a specific claim, it shouldn't remain as is. However, this film does actually belong as an example as there is a huge body of scholarly work dealing with the Nazi/fascistic elements in the film--whether these elements are overt, satirical, faithful to the book, misreading the book, etc. is the gist of the debate. I don't have time to work on it at this time but I thought I'd leave it here as something to be worked on. freshacconci talktalk 15:12, 5 April 2012 (UTC)

Map

Boundaries of the planned "Greater Germanic Reich" based on various, only partially systematised target projections (e.g. Generalplan Ost) from state administration and the SS leadership sources.

Should we replace the map used here with this map (and caption) from Greater Germanic Reich? Emmette Hernandez Coleman (talk) 21:01, 26 October 2012 (UTC)

-

the article states Axis, not German reich. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.238.24.223 (talk) 17:27, 28 July 2014 (UTC)

Plausibility Section

How possible an Axis victory is, is a subject of much debate. I think this merits a section. Das Beta (talk) 13:24, 23 January 2013 (UTC)

I'm not entirely sure that this would be the right article for such information, since this article is about fiction. However, feel free to provide your reliable sources and maybe we can figure out what to do with them. -- Fyrefly (talk) 23:36, 23 January 2013 (UTC)

A more plausible Axis victory, one that has yet to be created, involves the Good Guys and Bad Guys largely inverted with groups like the KKK ruling America, the BUF ruling Britain, and Vichy leaders in the real world ruling France while Germany maintains democracy and Japan becomes fully democratic. It's impossible to redeem Stalin, but keeping him on the side of an evil Britain and an evil America in an alternative universe gives some parallels. India breaks from Britain as the BUF overthrows the Windsor monarchy (a parallel is to Brazil splitting from Portugal).

The difference? Germany has the Jews on its side, and hence better technology that includes V-weapons that can be launched from submarines at the oil refineries of Houston and the tank factories of Detroit. Do you want the visionary super weapons? Keep the Jews on good terms with Germany and its allies (including eventually Churchill and De Gaulle), and Germany gets jet fighters that cause coastal defenses of the KKK-dominated USA to wither.

The Nazi and Japanese Evil Empires lost the war because of their mistreatment of innocent people. Without that mistreatment the Germans conquer the Soviet Union, and the Japanese are able to pacify Australia and New Zealand (they get the role of Italy) quickly by ensuring that the conquered people have no cause to resist. The Soviet Union, convinced that India is ripe for the taking, gets mauled badly there, and loses the resources of troops and materiel necessary for defeating Germany in Europe and Japan in eastern Asia.

Horrible? Sure. That is war. Pbrower2a (talk) 21:23, 16 April 2016 (UTC)

Addendum: this scenario paradoxically comes much closer in some respects to the real world that we now know.Pbrower2a (talk) 03:47, 28 September 2021 (UTC)

This article title is absurd, move it to something on alternative history fictions, or delete it

This article title is absurd and has been put on an article about the Greater Germanic Reich as if this is a fact. This article is wasted space, either put it into something on alternative history fictions or delete it.--R-41 (talk) 23:39, 24 February 2013 (UTC)

Merge from Pax Germanica

I think Pax Germanica fails to show it's own notability as a stand alone term, and should be merged into this article. Ping major contributors and interested parties: User:DGG, User:Volunteer Marek, User:Sijo Ripa, User:Alex1011, User:Adam Keller, User:Zombie Hunter Smurf. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 03:26, 26 November 2013 (UTC)

well, when Piotrus asked my opinion about what to do with the article, I'm the one who suggest this particular merge, so I think I agree with the solution.... DGG ( talk ) 06:14, 26 November 2013 (UTC)

I think the term can have a broader meaning than just with respect to recent fiction. There are some historical examples of the term in the treaties after the thirty years war. --Alex1011 (talk) 20:40, 2 December 2013 (UTC)

• Oppose. These are two separate scenarios: German victory in WWI, as opposed to WWII. -- Director (talk) 18:14, 21 January 2015 (UTC)
• The term "pax Germanica" appears in Latin texts as the peace of "Westphalia" "Pax Germanica Monasterii": http://www.uni-mannheim.de/mateo/camena/pexen/books/pexenfelderapparatus_10.html There it has of course nothing to do with WWI or WWII or with alternative history. See also Latin text of Latin Wikipedia. --Alex1011 (talk) 12:34, 2 March 2016 (UTC)

References

Historical source material section

This section is unsourced and appears to be dubious. I suggest removing this section. Would there be any objections? K.e.coffman (talk) 04:28, 25 May 2016 (UTC)

Since it appears that there are no objections, I will go ahead and re move this section. K.e.coffman (talk) 14:21, 21 June 2016 (UTC)

Article cleanup

I've cleaned up some unsourced trivia & red links. Please let me know of any feedback / concerns. K.e.coffman (talk) 20:07, 25 June 2016 (UTC)

Man in the High Castle issue

The sentence, "...but the Nazi/Japanese Cold War has also resulted in an accelerated nuclear arms race relative to our own world," is incorrect, as only the Germans had invented nuclear weapons at the time of the novel, and where a pre-emptive strike on Japan would have not been retaliated against. Freakdog (talk) 22:35, 10 August 2016 (UTC)

Man in the High Castle map

I have exchanged the world map which shows the background situation from "The Man in the High Castle" by using the map which is now shown in the article about this novel. Gernsback67 (talk) 14:28, 2 August 2019 (UTC)

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Title is misleading. I propose sweeping reforms (by User:DemocraticSocialism).

The title says "Hypothetical Axis Victory in World War II" but instead of showing potential territorial changes, it has a list of Alt-history books. I propose changing the entire article to make it more informative about the ACTUAL possible outcomes of an Axis Victory. (Note:if no one is willing to enact my proposals within 1 Month, then I shall do so myself.)reDemocraticSocialism (talk) 02:58, 24 April 2017 (UTC)

Finished reforms, albeit belatedly (by DemocraticSocialism|User: DemocraticSocialism)

I made a new section on the real-life ambitions of the Axis Powers. If you find any problems, feel free to fix them or contact me and I'll fix them myself. — Preceding unsigned comment added by DemocraticSocialism (talk • contribs) 05:15, 17 August 2017 (UTC)

Acceptable article given the subject

This is a rare subject, not being based on any factual events, the books about this can't be evaluated on the usual criteria of Wikipedia. It gives a list of books, most of which have not earned it's own page which then would be subject to the norms of this website. The introduction is fine and I approve of having this article as it is Arodb (talk) 20:27, 29 August 2019 (UTC)

Went the Day Well

Went the Day Well is not about an Axis victory but about the effect of a German invasion on a small English town. The German attackers (an Otto Skorzeny type commando unit in British uniforms) are stopped and in the epilogue it is clear that the invasion was defeated and the British had won the war. I suggest deleting that reference. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Amcalabrese (talk • contribs) 18:53, 24 October 2019 (UTC)

map

the fatherland map, is incorrect as the greater germanic reich is not included, also this map shows a partial nazi victory not a axis total victory as this article is about, replacing with irl map ie none of available maps are accurate, this article is about an axis victory, in the lead it says "Axis powers of Germany, Italy, and JAPAN won World War II." also in the fatherland map japan LOST THE WAR also it is inaccurate as it does not include the greater germanic reich, where is the Pax Japonica in the fatherland map that is the reliably sourced lede? please no original research which also contradicts this article Gooduserdude (talk) 06:27, 15 October 2020 (UTC)

Then we restore the last stable map with the Man in the high castle, this looks very weird truncated.(KIENGIR (talk) 06:28, 15 October 2020 (UTC))

you did not explain why my latest map should not be included? it considered disruptive to remove content without explanative edit summary Gooduserdude (talk) 06:31, 15 October 2020 (UTC)

Are you kidding? I explained, also here and in the edits logs, there is nothing "disruptive", just stop this and a little bit analize our policies (I saw you quarrel with another user at the Greater Germanic Reich, where you had similar problems). The policy is if you perform a change and it has no consensus, then the status quo ante version is restored by WP:BRD.(KIENGIR (talk) 12:37, 15 October 2020 (UTC))

Realistic possibility of an Axis victory

I removed this section as it is unsourced. The text is below:

A German victory in World War II would have been very difficult because of the superiority of Allied technology and logistics. Britain, Russia, and the United States outproduced Germany by a significant amount in resources and equipment while at the same time having far larger economic power. The cancellation of the German invasion of Russia would likely not have changed the result of the war, because Russia would likely have eventually broken the non-aggression pact that it signed with Germany and the end result would be Germany's surrender. Japan would likely have had significantly more success if it did not attack Pearl Harbor, but would probably lose control of China in 1950 at latest due to the rise of communism, and the rest of its empire would subsequently collapse.

This may or may not be accurate, but it is certainly speculation. As it's speculation, I'm not sure how we could source it for inclusion. Perhaps some of it, such as the fact that the Allies economies vastly outmatched the Axis, could be sourced, but that Japan would 'probably lose control of China in 1950 at latest' seems entirely speculative. --Shimbo (talk) 10:14, 9 June 2021 (UTC)

It's speculative fiction. Personalities matter, and those are the stars of any alternative history as in the history books that we all know. It would be absurd to make Churchill a Nazi collaborator or make a nice guy out of Stalin. Would Mao Zedong have abandoned his revolutionary fervor simply because the Nationalist regime had been obliterated? Not likely. Would the Japanese have killed him and destroyed his revolutionary force? Not likely. Mao knew how to retreat and hide, awaiting a better time. Would remnants of the Nationalist cause and refugees from brutality have found common cause with Mao's Communist revolution that has become quite likely the last possible chance for an independent China? I would expect so. Yes, I would expect Mao to take over China in the 1950's -- later than in the reality that we know because the Japanese are more efficient soldiers than the Chinese Nationalists, but not that much more efficient.Pbrower2a (talk) 03:59, 28 September 2021 (UTC)

Maybe you're right, maybe you aren't, but it's irrelevant, because official policy is that Wikipedia is not for discussion and speculation about stuff. See WP:NOTFORUM. If you want to talk about alternative history then the best thing to do would be to head over to https://alternatehistory.com --Shimbo (talk) 12:13, 28 September 2021 (UTC)

But the article is entitled Hypothetical Axis victory in World War II; which means at least a rehearsal of the major arguments in speculation about history are completely in order.

Nuttyskin (talk) 03:16, 2 October 2021 (UTC)

Yes, a summary of the major arguments about a hypothetical Axis victory in World War II would be a useful addition to this article, IF those arguments are sourced to reliable sources (see WP:RS). It's against Wikipedia policy to add our personal opinions to any article, including this one (see WP:NOR). --Shimbo (talk) 14:47, 2 October 2021 (UTC)

removal of purely speculative map

I have removed one map, as reproduced here, supposed to describe the geopolitical world of The Man in the High Castle. It is minutely more precise than what the book actually contains and is almost entirely speculative. I replaced it by the only map available in Commons which is not involving original research: a map of the territory of the United States as it is described in the book.--Sapphorain (talk) 21:15, 12 February 2022 (UTC)

Can't the same thing be said about the U.S. map? Also, this specific article is about an Axis victory, it would make much more sense to add a world map than a U.S. one. -- 2804:248:f6b7:d000:4186:e320:8a11:d7ce (talk) 04:52, 20 March 2022 (UTC)

No, the same thing cannot be said about the US map, which pictures the situation actually described in The Man in the High Castle: the Pacific States of America controlled by Japan, the United States of America and « the South », both controlled by Nazi Germany, and the politically neutral Rocky Mountain States. On the other hand the world map you insist in replacing it with is a minutely precise original research made by a contributor of Wikimedia Commons, which invokes Dick’s book but in which practically everything is pure speculation and actually not contained in the book (for instance Antartica is not even mentioned in it!). Original research by a contributor not backed by any admissible source is not allowed in Wikipedia. --Sapphorain (talk) 08:43, 20 March 2022 (UTC)

I agree the world map is original research, but it seems to me that the Noth America map is original research too. Yes the book describes the USA as split in four, but, for example, the map shows Texas as part of the Rocky Mountain States which IIRC has no support in the text. Any specific boundaries are inevitably original research as there is no map in the novel and no precise description of the borders. I'd suggest the article might be better either with a map from a different major Nazi-victory novel ('Fatherland' perhaps, as that has a map) or we simply don't include a map. Perhaps a suitable photograph could illustrate the article instead. --Shimbo (talk) 10:25, 20 March 2022 (UTC)

The four countries indicated in the US map correspond at least to Dick’s book, and their approximate locations are correct. Yes, I agree that their borders cannot be viewed as being in complete conformity with the book, since no precise description of them is given there. A warning to that effect could be put under the map, though. Whereas such a warning under the world map would be senseless, as the great majority of borders (and even states) indicated in it are pure invention. On the other hand, the option of borrowing instead a map from another novel providing one is not feasible, as there is certainly a copyright on such a map.--Sapphorain (talk) 12:28, 20 March 2022 (UTC)

I can't understand your rationale here. The world map is original research, but the US one isn't because the world map has more original research on it than the US one? Either original research is allowed or it isn't, surely? If there is no copyright free map available depicting any Axis victory novel, we could include one of the maps from articles such as New Order (Nazism), Lebensraum and Greater East Asia Co-Prosperity Sphere. And there remains the option of having no map at all. --Shimbo (talk) 09:34, 21 March 2022 (UTC)

Well, my « rationale » is simply that a purely speculative illustration by an unknown contributor cannot be tolerated, whereas a slightly imprecise one, providing a reasonably good picture of a written description, can. If you don’t agree be my guest and suppress the existing map, I won’t mind. But then if you want to be consistent you will want to suppress the dozens of existing similar maps in a number of articles related to various alternate history novels. I wish you good luck, here are just a few such articles: The Man in the High Castle (TV series),Nineteen Eighty-Four, Nineteen Eighty-Four (film), Fictional country,Political geography of Nineteen Eighty-Four, List of fictional countries in the Americas,Fatherland (novel), Alternate history, … --Sapphorain (talk) 16:56, 21 March 2022 (UTC)

Except there are other areas of the world mentioned in the novel too, if the world map is original research, then so is the U.S. one. -- 2804:248:f617:c600:38a9:7405:8745:e8f7 (talk) 19:28, 21 March 2022 (UTC)

Okay, as we agree that the 'Man in the High Castle' maps are original research, I suggest we replace them with this sourced one:

Boundaries of the planned "Greater Germanic Reich" after an Axis victory in WW2.

Ok then. But the link in the reference appears to be broken. --Sapphorain (talk) 17:15, 22 March 2022 (UTC)

I have restored the broken link, if the man in the high castle maps are WP:OR this map from the wikipedia article New Order (Nazism) is not which is better than the greater germanic reich map since this article is about an axis victory not a german victory only

the map from the wikipedia article New Order (Nazism)

Gooduserdude (talk) 11:01, 29 March 2022 (UTC)

I don't agree. This map from New Order (Nazism) is in fact imported from Wikidata, where it is unsourced, and where it is labelled "own work" by the contributor who put it there. The fact that it is already used in another wikipedia article doesn't make it less WP:OR. So I removed it. As I already said, I would agree with the file "Greater Germany Reich" if the broken link is restored (it appears to be still broken). --Sapphorain (talk) 11:37, 29 March 2022 (UTC)

i restored an archived version at the article itself not here, anyways since you clearly have no consensus for this i will revert per WP:BRD Gooduserdude (talk) 11:42, 29 March 2022 (UTC)

??? There is certainly a consensus in the talk above that the old map you restored is original research and should not be in the article. Whether it should be replaced or not by another one, and by which one, has stilt to reach a consensus apparently. So for the time being let's leave the article without any map. --Sapphorain (talk) 14:01, 29 March 2022 (UTC)

RfC on map in lead

The following discussion is an archived record of a request for comment. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion. A summary of the conclusions reached follows.

Though there is a weak consensus to keep the a map derived from The Man in the High Castle, it has been pointed out in this discussion and on the map's Commons entry that the map is an interpretation from the text of that novel, and was not approved by the author of the novel. While it is the least problematic of the maps, there is consensus that it is still original research. As such, there is therefore consensus against including that map. There is no consensus for including any of the other proposed maps, due to concerns over original research.

---

Objections arose after the removal of the map per WP:OR. Several maps were also proposed, as well as no map at all. Two questions: (1) Is original research tolerable in this context? (2) Which map, if any, would be appropriate?--Sapphorain (talk) 11:25, 5 April 2022 (UTC)

• My opinion is that all the maps based on novels are problematic as far as OR is concerned. Maps based on genuine Axis plans would be good, but we seem to have a problem sourcing them ATM. The only one I think might work is this one:

  

  Otherwise, IMO that leaves the options of having nothing or using a photograph instead of a map. Here are a few possible photos from Wikimedia Commons:

• 
• 
• 
• 
• 

--Shimbo (talk) 18:20, 5 April 2022 (UTC) Edited to show thumbnails --Shimbo (talk) 19:03, 6 April 2022 (UTC)

• I believe the world map of The Man in the High Castle should stay, while it does have its flaws, its probably a good representation of the world of the novel, but in case most editors decide to scrap it, I propose the Fatherland one, even though it is a novel in which only Germany won:

https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Fatherland.png -- 2804:248:f677:f300:4b3:a2a4:dec6:1482 (talk) 03:37, 6 April 2022 (UTC)

• I also believe the world map of The Man in the High Castle should stay, the fatherland map does not show the greater germanic reich which makes the map incorrect and it does only shows a german victory not a axis victory which the The Man in the High Castle does (we should definitely NOT use the fatherland map in any case whatsover) Gooduserdude (talk) 10:01, 6 April 2022 (UTC)
• My opinion is that a Wikimedia Commons file is acceptable on Wikipedia only if it is referenced by sources that are admissible by Wikipedia standards. This means for instance that a draft or picture based on the content of a novel should not be used unless it was actually published within the novel (or possibly by some admissible media or publication). It also means that « own works » that are interpretations of the contents of such novels, drafted by lambda Wikimedia contributors, should not be allowed per No original research. Thus in my opinion none of [1],[2], [3], and [4] is acceptable. For the time being I would be content with no illustration at all in the lead, But if a consensus can be reached I would agree with one of the following propositions by User: Shimbo:[5] (this one has my preference), [6] , [7], and possibly [8] (provided the broken link on the reference can be fixed).--Sapphorain (talk) 17:44, 6 April 2022 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.