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I was looking at "Trade and Industry Section", and the tone comes across as rather anti-Chinese, hence violating the [[Wikipedia:Neutral point of view|NPOV]] policy? Is it possible to fix it somehow. I think it's fine to say that the ethnic Chinese have a disproportionate economic clout relative to their population, and that it has caused resentment among the indigenous peoples, but the section goes on towards blaming the ethnic Chinese for the poverty in other ethnic groups, which I think can come across as rather bigoted. After all, it is very similar rhetoric that Hitler against the Jews, and we all know what happened as a result of that. [[User:The dog2|The dog2]] ([[User talk:The dog2|talk]]) 05:46, 11 September 2018 (UTC)
I was looking at "Trade and Industry Section", and the tone comes across as rather anti-Chinese, hence violating the [[Wikipedia:Neutral point of view|NPOV]] policy? Is it possible to fix it somehow. I think it's fine to say that the ethnic Chinese have a disproportionate economic clout relative to their population, and that it has caused resentment among the indigenous peoples, but the section goes on towards blaming the ethnic Chinese for the poverty in other ethnic groups, which I think can come across as rather bigoted. After all, it is very similar rhetoric that Hitler against the Jews, and we all know what happened as a result of that. [[User:The dog2|The dog2]] ([[User talk:The dog2|talk]]) 05:46, 11 September 2018 (UTC)
::To me, it's the opposite. It's rather anti-Burmese and has a disturbing tone of racial superiority. The truth is yes, many Chinese tend to favor one another for business and form a sort of bamboo cartel. This led to a rapid resource acquisition using foreign capital and the displacement of local populations. In addition, many Chinese have a known reputation for greed which is a sin in Burmese culture. Burmese are less motivated by monetary stimulus. Instead, this article makes it look like there is some sort of inherent superiority within the Chinese which led to their so-called "success." [[User:Lillyanna2020|Lillyanna2020]] ([[User talk:Lillyanna2020|talk]]) 08:21, 16 September 2020 (UTC)
::To me, it's the opposite. It's rather anti-Burmese and has a disturbing tone of racial superiority. The truth is yes, many Chinese tend to favor one another for business and form a sort of bamboo cartel. This led to a rapid resource acquisition using foreign capital and the displacement of local populations. In addition, many Chinese have a known reputation for greed which is a sin in Burmese culture. Burmese are less motivated by monetary stimulus. Instead, this article makes it look like there is some sort of inherent superiority within the Chinese which led to their so-called "success." [[User:Lillyanna2020|Lillyanna2020]] ([[User talk:Lillyanna2020|talk]]) 08:21, 16 September 2020 (UTC)
:::What a load nonsense, it's obvious both of you exhibit [[WP:IDONTLIKEIT]] sentiments while unequivocally violating [[[[WP:NOTCENSORED]] guidelines based on the previous removals that both of you have made. The fact is, Overseas Chinese economic dominance (not just in Burma, but the rest of Southeast Asia) is an economic reality and if you think all these groundbreaking facts somehow constitute "[[Han chauvinism]]," or what you both characterize as a "disturbing tone of racial superiority" then you might as well label all the academically well-sourced information that back up these assertions of Chinese economic dominance as somehow perpetuating "[[Han chauvinism]] or racial superiority." It is worrisome that well-documented information grounded in reliable, rigorous, and robust academic sources is interpreted as kind of threat from you. This is a clear case of violation of [[WP:NPOV]] and a good example of [[WP:I just don't like it]] and [[WP:NOTCENSORED]]. Since it's completely evident in your tone that you cannot tolerate well-grounded facts backed by legitimate academic sources, I guess that makes you both the racially prejudiced ones. [[User:SimeonManier|SimeonManier]] ([[User talk:SimeonManier|talk]]) 22:51, 9 June 2022 (UTC)


== COPYVIO and Han Chauvinism ==
== COPYVIO and Han Chauvinism ==

Revision as of 22:51, 9 June 2022

What should this page be called?

If you are going to propose that this page be moved to "Chinese Burmese" or something (a move which I would oppose), please join this discussion on naming conventions which I have initiated. We want to avoid having the same debate about "ethnic group name first or country name first" on every single talk page relating to ethnic groups living outside their ancestral countries. Thank you in advance. cab 10:28, 2 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Requested move

The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: no consensus to move. Graeme Bartlett (talk) 11:16, 13 March 2011 (UTC) Graeme Bartlett (talk) 11:16, 13 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]


Chinese people in Burma → Burmese Chinese — No precedence for naming articles "Chinese people in..." for articles about overseas Chinese (see Chinese Thai, Chinese Malaysian, etc.). Title is unnecessarily wordy and not concise. --Hintha(t) 06:28, 20 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose If "Chinese Thai" and "Chinese Malaysian" are your models, then it should be "Chinese Burmese", at least if we are talking about Burmese citizens. If they are Chinese citizens, it's "Chinese in Burma." Kauffner (talk) 11:18, 20 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Actually, the articles in question are at Thai Chinese and Malaysian Chinese (also the names which are used to refer to them in most reliable sources and the names which the people themselves use, e.g. Malaysian Chinese Association). Not every country in the world uses the American-style ordering of ethnicity first, citizenship second. In the rest of the former British Empire the opposite ordering is more common.
Also, citizenship is not really a good dividing line for deciding what name to use. Within any given community, especially one with more than a million people right next door to their ancestral country, some people may choose to take local citizenship, while others retain their ancestral citizenship. Quite often this is merely done for reasons of business or travel convenience and has nothing to do with identity. cab (call) 12:40, 20 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Support The proposed title Burmese Chinese is where the article was until an an undiscussed move two weeks ago made on grounds of "consistency with other articles", which is a weak reason at best; some of these articles are at "Chinese Fooian", others at "Fooian Chinese", and others at even different titles. There is a precedent for purely descriptive titles like "Chinese people in Foo", but only if the country doesn't use one of these "Fooian Barian" conventions, or if both countries have sent large groups of migrants to each other thus making the use of "Fooian Barian" conventions needlessly confusing. But neither of these seem to be the case here, and the proposed title can be found in many scholarly works about Chinese migration, e.g. [1][2][3][4][5]. cab (call) 12:40, 20 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Support: The current title doesn't reflect the intent and content of the article. To me, it connotes foreignness; I take it to be about "Chinese citizens in Burma". Many Burmese Chinese have been in Burma/Myanmar for generations, and many of whom consider themselves fully Burmese, no holds barred. I suspect they'd find the current title which reduces them to just one aspect of their heritage quite insulting. As for Chinese-Burmese or Burmese Chinese, it's a question of style. I agree with "User cab" here that we need not adhere to American convention. Hybernator (talk) 14:37, 20 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose The proposed title does not distinguish between Bermese nationals of Chinese origin/ethnicity and Chinese nationals of Burmese origin/ethnicity. The country does not use English as an official language, and we should not use British v American English to decide the title when something with more clarity is availabe that avoids using some dialect of English that is opaque to the other variety of English. 65.95.14.96 (talk) 00:42, 21 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Comment "Chinese in Burma" gets 1,570 hits on Google books. It's also the title of this book. Of course, "Burmese Chinese" gets more hits, but they are mostly about international relations, (or lists like "Burmese, Chinese, Khmer, Vietnamese"). The examples given above are mostly not relevant. Two of them refer to people living in Hong Kong and another is about people in the U.S. Two use "Burmese Chinese" as an adjective. In order of adjectives, origin is last, whereas in the proposed name "Burmese" is an adjective modifying "Chinese." These are American sources, so how likely is it that they are using a British word order? Kauffner (talk) 03:51, 21 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Chinese people in Burma to me refers to the Chinese nationals in Burma, not to the Burmese people of Chinese descent, which the article is about. I urge everyone to read the article. Many Burmese Chinese have lived in Burma for generations. Except for the recent immigrants, most Burmese Chinese are culturally Burmese (language, religion, etc.) and many have some Burmese blood too. What's next? Do we rename Chinese Americans to Chinese people in America? The move was made, presumably in good faith, by some neophyte editor without any discussion. Restoring it is now a problem. What irony. Wikipedia has to do something about this. Hybernator (talk) 00:35, 22 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I tried to Be bold and did that move because of the reasons discussed below. Restoring is not a problem. Perhaps, this discussion will bring a better title. See Wikipedia:BOLD, revert, discuss cycle. Soewinhan (talk) 06:14, 11 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
In 2007 Ethnic Koreans in China was moved to Koreans in China. This is an old problem, and we need to decrease ambiguity, not increase it. --Bejnar (talk) 16:26, 22 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • Ethnicity, then nationality (like Chinese American):. Some people go around trying to standardise all other usages to match this one, even when these are minority usages (e.g. Chinese Malaysian) or not clearly established (Chinese Mongolian, Korean Chinese). There's also conflict over whether usages of this form should be hyphenated or not.
  • Nationality, then ethnicity (like British Chinese): Some people complain this is inaccurate and try to standardize as above. Others also complain that this form overemphasizes the foreignness of the ethnic group in question (the ethnicity as a noun, modified by the nationality).
  • Non-English names in the language of the ethnic group (like Koryo-saram): Some people complain this usage is not clear to English speakers. It also may lead to conflicts over transcription (e.g. the above spelling, based off of an old romanization, could be updated to use the Revised Romanization spelling "Goryeo-saram"). Also, how members of the ethnic group living outside their country of origin prefer to call themselves may be different from what their co-ethnics back in the mother country call them (in this case, "Goryeo-in").
  • Non-English names in the language of the country of residence (like Zainichi Korean): Same problem as above, plus the possible accusation of racism because you're using the "mainstream" name instead of the ethnic group's name in their own ethnic language (Jaeil). Especially when the mainstream name doesn't make any distinction between foreigners and citizens. (E.g. Hoa, which just means "Chinese").
  • Ethnic (Group name) in (Country name) (like Ethnic Koreans in China): some people complain that this is too unwieldy, and also it doesn't sufficiently distinguish between Chinese citizens of Korean descent, and Korean citizens living in China. Others assert (usually just based on their own opinion) that "Ethnic Abc" is clearly distinguished from plain old "Abc" (as in Ethnic German). Also this usage does start to look excessively long if you try to think about how to title a page describing the reverse migration of said ethnic group to their country of origin.

Any suggestions? Can other readers here help us to write clearer guidelines regarding this to avoid having to repeat the same debate on every single ethnicity page? cab 04:12, 2 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Bejnar, you seem to have pasted the above comment by CaliforniaAliBaba from another page. I presume that they didn't consent to this, and it appears strange because the comment is dated 2006. While quoting old comments might be OK, I'm not sure that this is an approach that should be followed on talk pages. Cordless Larry (talk) 18:01, 23 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, consent, see "What should this page be called?" above. I just noticed that based on the comments, no one was reading cab's comments. It was reproduced since cab's original link no longer worked and an archive search was required. --Bejnar (talk) 16:52, 25 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]
If there is a common usage term along the lines of "Chinese American", that should be used. Otherwise, it should be "Ethnic XXX in YYY". Kauffner (talk) 14:22, 23 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose "Burmese Chinese" is ambiguous and could refer to "Chinese people in Burma" or "Burmese people in China" or those with mixed-blood. I don't think "Chinese people in Burma" could refer to "Chinese nationals in Burma" unless you take the term "Chinese(adj)" exclusively for PRC. Also, "Chinese (as a noun)" may mean "citizen of China." For the term like "Chinese Americans" is acceptable because it has both historical and popular usage. To me, both Chinese people in Burma and Ethnic Chinese in Burma encompass all Chinese in Burma regardless of nationality. Soewinhan (talk) 06:14, 11 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

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The Tone of This Article

I was looking at "Trade and Industry Section", and the tone comes across as rather anti-Chinese, hence violating the NPOV policy? Is it possible to fix it somehow. I think it's fine to say that the ethnic Chinese have a disproportionate economic clout relative to their population, and that it has caused resentment among the indigenous peoples, but the section goes on towards blaming the ethnic Chinese for the poverty in other ethnic groups, which I think can come across as rather bigoted. After all, it is very similar rhetoric that Hitler against the Jews, and we all know what happened as a result of that. The dog2 (talk) 05:46, 11 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]

To me, it's the opposite. It's rather anti-Burmese and has a disturbing tone of racial superiority. The truth is yes, many Chinese tend to favor one another for business and form a sort of bamboo cartel. This led to a rapid resource acquisition using foreign capital and the displacement of local populations. In addition, many Chinese have a known reputation for greed which is a sin in Burmese culture. Burmese are less motivated by monetary stimulus. Instead, this article makes it look like there is some sort of inherent superiority within the Chinese which led to their so-called "success." Lillyanna2020 (talk) 08:21, 16 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]
What a load nonsense, it's obvious both of you exhibit WP:IDONTLIKEIT sentiments while unequivocally violating [[WP:NOTCENSORED guidelines based on the previous removals that both of you have made. The fact is, Overseas Chinese economic dominance (not just in Burma, but the rest of Southeast Asia) is an economic reality and if you think all these groundbreaking facts somehow constitute "Han chauvinism," or what you both characterize as a "disturbing tone of racial superiority" then you might as well label all the academically well-sourced information that back up these assertions of Chinese economic dominance as somehow perpetuating "Han chauvinism or racial superiority." It is worrisome that well-documented information grounded in reliable, rigorous, and robust academic sources is interpreted as kind of threat from you. This is a clear case of violation of WP:NPOV and a good example of WP:I just don't like it and WP:NOTCENSORED. Since it's completely evident in your tone that you cannot tolerate well-grounded facts backed by legitimate academic sources, I guess that makes you both the racially prejudiced ones. SimeonManier (talk) 22:51, 9 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

COPYVIO and Han Chauvinism

CCP trolls are adding Han Chauvinist content to the article, often copying verbatim from books like Bamboo Network. JordanKSM (talk) 23:05, 1 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Chinese are NOT "economically dominant." They are rich, sure, due to the KMT opium trade. But most of Burma's economic sector is controlled by Burmese cronies.JordanKSM (talk) 23:06, 1 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
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