Wikipedia:Requests for adminship/ScottishFinnishRadish/Bureaucrat chat

Discussion

• Starting a bureaucrat chat for this candidacy, given the support percentage (around 72%), the volume of participation and the arguments given on all sides; this, to me, warrants scrutiny by more than one bureaucrat. I am still in the process of reading the RfA and will give my verdict within 24 hours. Fellow bureaucrats, discuss accordingly. Acalamari 01:30, 20 September 2022 (UTC)
• Thanks, Acalamari, for opening this discussion. It’s late here but I will read through the RfA in the morning and offer my thoughts. 28bytes (talk) 02:33, 20 September 2022 (UTC)
• Seen, will read through as soon as I can. Primefac (talk) 06:51, 20 September 2022 (UTC)

  Broadly speaking, the opposition falls into three categories: SFR is inexperienced (and/or is "too new"); SFR does not edit in the article space sufficient to be considered "experienced enough" to be an administrator; SFR has temperament issues when dealing with controversial situations, which could potentially lead to heavy-handed adminning and unnecessary hasty/involved sanctions. For the most part, the first two concerns are binary: either SFR meets someone's activity/editing criteria, or they don't. The consensus on these first two points clearly lies with those in support. The third issue is probably the most troubling, as folks are understandably concerned about involved/inappropriate sanctions being levied, or other administrative actions being taken in a way that reduces the amount of transparency or editorial oversight from SFR. There were a number of examples given in the opposition, but unlike past RFAs there does not appear to be one issue that significantly changed the outcome (see as comparison Tamzin or Vami IV); in other words, the support percent dropped into the 70-75% range fairly quickly but then never left that zone. I do expect ScottishFinnishRadish to take the opposition opinions into consideration going forward, but I see a consensus to promote. Primefac (talk) 12:09, 20 September 2022 (UTC)

  As a minor note, I do find WTT's analysis of the "mind-changers" to be rather interesting; I cannot think of another RFA with this percentage of support that did not have at least a few people change their overall opinions of the candidate during the process. Primefac (talk) 12:13, 20 September 2022 (UTC)

• Shall have something for you today. Thanks for opening. Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} 07:43, 20 September 2022 (UTC)

  First off, I'd like to indicate this is my first cratchat, so if I do anything spurious, drop me a line. This RfA has been one of the highest turnouts for a while, but with some pretty poor arguments (on both sides). Opposer arguments are largely down to a couple of different niches, with a general lack of trust being put in place. There are suggestions that this user is somehow too good at the system, that they started "too well", and that they have made choices until this point as they specifically want the tools. It is not our job to decide whether this is true or not, but rather agree or disagree that the community believes this to be true. However, I would like to comment that any indications of someone opposing this because of an accusation of being a sock has been given significantly less weight in my eyes. There are zero policy reasons why someone who was a sock could have editing privileges, but not be able to be an admin. It's a binary thing, where either this user is a sockpuppet and they should be banned (or indicate such a thing with the usual exemptions) or they aren't a sockpuppet and should be able to run for RfA without accusation. Regardless of the result of this, if there is speculation of puppetry, then an SPI should be filed (with corresponding evidence).

  That being said, this isn't the only issue that was brought up - issues with the users tenure, previous faults and potential hat collecting were all mentioned. I echo Primefac's comments on these oppose !votes. I also agree with WTT that whilst we should be wary on admitting new corps, we have no minimum tenure, and have had plenty of opportunities to add one. I find a consensus to support, echoing Primefacs well written !vote above.Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} 13:57, 20 September 2022 (UTC)

• Thanks for organising, Acalamari. I have been following the RfA, which has raised a number of concerns regarding the candidate, including the seeming dichotomy of that of being a returning user because of ScottishFinnishRadish's knowledge and understanding of Wikipedia's ways, and that of not being experienced enough. Another dichotomy is that supporters mention that SFR has written two GAs and been very helpful in responding to edit requests, while opposers are concerned that SFR doesn't have enough content experience. Supporters feel that SFR has the right attitude and clue to be an admin, opposers feel that SFR can be rash and uncivil. From following it through it appears to me that supporters feel comfortable with what they see of SFR, while opposers are uneasy about something they see in SFR, though the exact reason for that is difficult to pin down. Some opposers feel that SFR has been deliberately setting out to be an admin, and that makes them feel uneasy. I don't think this is an easy one to call. While watching I noticed the percentage indicator creeping down, which might lean toward an oppose, as - despite SFR addressing concerns in the question section, and supporters returning to add more rationale for their support, the trend continued downwards, albeit slightly. Though all the concerns raised are understandable, only two - that of being a returning user and that of not having enough experience - appear to be raised by a substantial enough number of opposers (and rebutted by supporters) to be considered serious impediments. The concerns of incivility and rashness are not widely shared by the opposers; the two main concerns are lack of experience, and the suggestion of being a returning user. As I mentioned in the RfA, I don't feel it is our role to judge if SFR is a returning user, nor if SFR has enough experience; I feel that our roles are to assess if the community feels confident enough in SFR to become an admin. On examination this morning, I feel that sufficient of the opposers have indicated that they are reassured by SFR's comments regarding SFR's understanding of Wikipedia's ways that the concern regarding being a returning user is not an impediment. However, I am not yet sure regarding the concern about broad experience. I intend and hope to have my opinion on this matter later today. SilkTork (talk) 08:43, 20 September 2022 (UTC)

  This morning as I was writing the above, I was inclining toward accepting; however, after reading through the RfA again, and noting both the range and the strength of the opposes, I got the distinct impression of a significant body of people who do not currently [have enough] trust in SFR, and would like to see SFR get more involved with a greater range of Wikipedia activities, particularly stressful ones, so they can see how SFR behaves under pressure. There are a number of concerns regarding temperament, and this grew toward the end. The final comment in the oppose column of "choose caution, even if in err", strikes me as particularly telling. This is a fairly borderline RfA, and to err on the side of caution, allowing SFR to come back again in, say, 12 months, seems more prudent than to err on the side of risk with a difficult journey to amend that err. As such I find no consensus to promote to be the more prominent message I get from the RFA. SilkTork (talk) 12:31, 20 September 2022 (UTC)

Added "have enough" per suggestion on talkpage. SilkTork (talk) 16:29, 20 September 2022 (UTC)

• I'm seeing an RfA with a lowish raw % in the discretionary range, with a range of well-expressed and heartfelt opposes. I think I've rarely seen so many strongly stated opposes for a Cratchat RfA (and re number 70, Hammersoft, I think not only Crats but other users find the strength of support/opposition very helpful - RfA is supposed to be a conversation leading to consensus). On the other hand, like SilkTork, I find issue with a number of the opposes, especially as I think the answer to Q6 is both significant and plausible. However, with this much, and so varied, well-expressed opposition, I feel disinclined on this occasion to start going down the route of trying to notionally discount or give lower weight to some opposes. Regardless of outcome, I think that the nominee should reflect on the oppose rationales - many of them could be worked on by this user. For me, I find no consensus to promote. Regretfully, as I think this candidate offers plenty and I hope to see them as an admin some time. --Dweller (talk) Old fashioned is the new thing! 09:01, 20 September 2022 (UTC)

  @Dweller just a quick note (not sure if it changes your opinion), the discretionary range is 65% - 75%, so this isn't on the low end of the raw numbers. Worm^TT(talk) 10:30, 20 September 2022 (UTC)

• Seen, should be able to review within ~16 hours. — xaosflux ^Talk 10:45, 20 September 2022 (UTC)
  • In reviewing the supports, a non-trivial number are of the I'm not bothered by a point an opposer raised type, but otherwise don't add much to the discussion about why the candidate should be supported. Conversely, almost all of the opposition added to the discussion reasons why the candidate should not be supported. I don't find that there is sufficient opposes to call this a "fail", however my overall read is that the discussion resulted in no consensus to promote. The primary opposition trends are regarding things that will likely be naturally overcome if the candidate continues to make positive content contributions to the project over some more time. — xaosflux ^Talk 00:04, 21 September 2022 (UTC)
• Noting that I intend to go over this today, but am rather busy so if I don't get to it, please go on without me! Worm^TT(talk) 10:46, 20 September 2022 (UTC)

  Having said that, I found I had a spare half hour, so I thought I'd jump straight in. On the surface, at 72% support we are leaning towards an area where we should be promoting a candidate, but since we're in a discretionary area, we also need to consider the comments made to see what sort of issues are raised, and how they are rebutted. It's clear to me that ScottishFinnishRadish's lack of tenure is a concern for many of the opposers, which can be combined with significant early knowledge to imply the possibility of a previous account. However, I am going to give less weight to these concerns. I appreciate there is a risk involved in accepting new admins - but the community has explicitly refused to set a minimum tenure, and without some actual proof of previous account this does boil down to a bad faith opinion.

  That said, I'm not discounting these votes all together, as RfA is about trust, and it's clear that these opposers simply do not trust the candidate - and important factor. Similarly, the idea of lack of experience, which goes along hand in hand with lack of tenure is a valid one, and should be given due weight.

  The other concerns I'm seeing raised should be given their due weight, lack of content creation / mainspace edits are issues some of the community base their views upon. A "barrel ahead" attitude is something that I've seen raised as a concern with admins who have been removed for cause.

  In summary, there clearly are valid concerns raised by the opposers, but they have not persuaded the supporters. Interestingly, I have not seen many individuals change their opinion during the course of the RfA based on the opposite side's opinion, neither side has persuaded the other, which is unusual at a contentious RfA. Overall, I believe there is a consensus to promote, despite the concerns of the opposers. Worm^TT(talk) 11:17, 20 September 2022 (UTC)

• Noting I've seen this and will review the discussions later today. ···日本穣 · 投稿 · Talk to Nihonjoe · Join WP Japan! 15:34, 20 September 2022 (UTC)
• This is an amazing amount of passion for an RfA, especially when compared to the earlier days of sysoping. Before looking at some of the particulars, I'd like to make a brief broad comment.

  In the early days of the Bureaucracy, I felt that the Bureaucrat should be sparing of personal observations; that is, the Bureaucrat had to see where the consensus lay, by volume and then by reading the contentious arguments on each side, if necessary. So (theoretically) the 'crat was merely interpreting the community's will.

  Numerically, I believe we were originally looking at 80% for admins, 90% for 'crats. Then it softened to 75%-80% with the understanding that you needed some special issues to justify going below 80%. Now I see we are at 65%-75%. Isn't that a long way down?; but then this is decades later.

  As for food for thought, what are we looking for in this RfA? Early on, Jimbo stated that he didn't want sysoping to be a magic thing; that he even considered making some users sysops at random, just to show it wasn't that big a deal. But that was two decades ago. The other side is: will this person be a plus for the Wiki? But, moreover, can he do harm: if so, what? Cheers, Cecropia (talk) 17:14, 20 September 2022 (UTC)

  • Things change, and one thing which has changed massively is the amount of scrutiny which RfAs and RfBs receive. Back in the mists of time, when I went through them, there was a much stronger sense that it wasn't a big deal, and a few months of competent editing, followed by not picking any arguments during the discussion, generally got everyone 90% support. While the raw percentage of support required may have come down, I think it represents at least as strong a level of community confidence in the applicant. Warofdreams talk 20:17, 20 September 2022 (UTC)

• My turn to be the crat travelling at the start of a cratchat. But I'm now back online, had read much of it during the week and will respond when I've had a few hours sleep. ϢereSpielChequers 17:18, 20 September 2022 (UTC)

  • Since I was talking the numbers before, right now the 'crats that have stated an intent are 66% to promote. Is that consensus? LOL Cecropia (talk) 17:23, 20 September 2022 (UTC)

• I'm home from a long day of work and have had a look through the RfA and this discussion here. Firstly, it's good to see that for the very large part, the RfA has been good natured, and many comments both in support and opposition are clearly reasoned. Editors on both sides have largely engaged with the same issues, and it's clear that a substantial minority are not convinced that they would trust SFR sufficiently as an admin. While I could discuss details at length, my thoughts are very similar to those of SilkTork in particular. I find no consensus to promote. I don't know whether SFR will consider applying again in a year, but I hope they will consider it. Warofdreams talk 20:17, 20 September 2022 (UTC)
• Just a few observations regarding this before I jump into a full read of the RfA. Like Lee Vilenski, I find if a sockpuppet accusation is going to be made, it needs to have some evidence behind it and be taken up through normal community processes. It's not in-line with the AGF pillar to level these accusations as character assasination, especially during an RfA. Beyond that, I agree with Dweller that the strength of supports or opposes is very helpful. It helps me weigh how much thought was put in to the support or concern, rather than just seeing the wave of a hand type support or oppose. I also echo WTT's comment about voters digging in the trenches and how we have not had many, if any, flip sides because of the concerns raised. With that, I'll go review the RfA in a short bit here and be back with my opinion on consensus shortly after. -- Amanda (she/her) 21:42, 20 September 2022 (UTC)

• I'm gonna start by explaining the difference that I see with tenure vs. experience, as they are two different animals. As WTT notes, we have failed to ever set a minimum tenure at Wikipedia for an admin. Tenure does not always infer experience or lack thereof, it's just a measure of time. Experience on the other hand is actually participating in activities on the encyclopedia. There are plenty of people in the world who have the tenure for a position, but don't have the experience required, and can make a poor candidate. Now that I've split that up, I'll continue. Tenure !votes don't strike much of a chord with me, where as experience does.

I'm honestly a little disappointed with some of this RfA !votes. I figured we'd get more than a wave of feelings and get some solid evidence behind opposes. But instead, we are left with people concerned generically. While I don't discount this concern, it's less substantive than the usual RfA of opposing for x reason. So we are left with weak 'feeling' !votes for sockpuppetry and tenure, and then, we have more solid experience (including mainspace concerns) and tempterment concerns. Moving into the support section, I also see a ton of 'I've read the opposes' type !votes, which is not that usual with RfAs, especially since a lot of the supports usually come in early.

Considering both my early thoughts and new thoughts, the 'feeling' !votes as I mentioned above skew the strength of the oppose section. Because we are in the higher end of the discretionary zone, that pushes it over the line for me. While I don't dispute that there are many opposes that bring up good points the candidate should take to heart and work on if granted the tools, I feel that there is consensus to promote. -- Amanda (she/her) 23:44, 20 September 2022 (UTC)

• It is up to the community to evaluate the candidate; the role of the bureaucrats is to follow the wishes of the community. It is not the role of the bureaucrats to evaluate the candidate nor to cast "!supervotes." That said, comments that lack a basis in policy do not carry as great a weight in determining consensus. I will point out that there is no policy that requires RFA candidates to disclose their IP editing history. If the community were inclined to adopt such a policy it would have to be crafted carefully in order to be in compliance with the privacy policy. I believe a consensus to promote exists. UninvitedCompany 02:07, 21 September 2022 (UTC)

Summary

Consensus to promote

Primefac, Worm That Turned, Lee Vilenski, AmandaNP

No consensus to promote

Dweller, SilkTork, Warofdreams, Xaosflux

Intend to Respond

28bytes, Acalamari, Nihonjoe, WereSpielChequers, Cecropia, Maxim

Recused

Abstain