Wikipedia talk:Non-free content

See also: Wikipedia talk:Non-free content criteria exemptions

Non-free licensed images

Some images are classified as non-free by Wikipedia standards, but are available under a license that permits educational, personal, or otherwise non-commercial use and/or prohibits derivative works. These include certain Creative Commons lisences.

CC defines commercial use as one “primarily intended for or directed toward commercial advantage or monetary compensation.” Wikipedia, as a non-profit organisation, does not violate this prohibition.

These images could therefore seemingly be used without a claim of fair use, but one is required anyway. Why? Is there a good reason behind it? The licensing policy does not require it, only an "applicable rationale", which could be other than free use.

The main problem I have with this is that the policy mandates (and bots enforce) that all non-free files be low resolution. That is solely to comply with fair use rules and would be unnecessary under the CC licenses. Best, CandyScythe (talk) 19:54, 5 May 2023 (UTC)

Because we aim to produce a work that can be used, reused, redistributed, and modified by any entity in the world, including commercial entities, we require that free licenses allow for commercial use and for modification. This is defined by the WMF's resolution, using the definition of "free" set out here [1].

This is why we don't call any of this "fair use", because it is purposely stricter than fair use. Masem (t) 20:04, 5 May 2023 (UTC)

I understand that, but how does systematically reducing image resolutions when not necessary for compliance advance our goal to "produce a work that can be used, reused, redistributed, and modified by any entity in the world"? Best, CandyScythe (talk) 20:08, 5 May 2023 (UTC)

Because high resolution non-free images would violate fair use considerations. See points 4 and 5 of https://www.copyright.gov/fair-use/. See also Wikipedia talk:Non-free content/Archive 44#Respect for commercial opportunities and Wikipedia-only permission and Wikipedia talk:Non-free content/Archive 65#"low resolution" guidance on non-free images with standing granted permission. --Hammersoft (talk) 20:21, 5 May 2023 (UTC)

I'm sorry, but did you read my original message? This is explicitly about files that would not require fair use consideration. Best, CandyScythe (talk) 20:27, 5 May 2023 (UTC)

Hi CandyScythe. Is this just a general question or is it specifically related to your relicensing of File:Katawa Shoujo logo.png as {{PD-logo}} and then re-uploading the file as such to Commons? If it's a general question, then I think the issue might be that Wikipedia doesn't accept NC, ND or NCND CC licenses; any files licensed as such are going to be treated as non-free content for Wikipedia's purposes which means they are likely going to be resized or reduced in resolution if deemed necessary. Files that are originally uploaded locally to Wikipedia under acceptable CC licenses shouldn't be being reduced in either size or resolution. If you've noticed this to be the case, then perhaps you can provide an example of such a file.

If this is about a particular file like the Katawa logo, then it's possible that the file was originally uploaded as non-free just because the uploader assumed that was what needed to be done for the file. Sometimes a file is later determined through discussion to not need to be non-free and then any older higher resolution versions can be restored at that time. File uploads aren't vetted before being uploaded and thus tend to not be assessed right away. Sometimes an assessment takes place years after a file has been uploaded and often it only happens when someone, for whatever reason, decides to take a closer look at the file n question. -- Marchjuly (talk) 21:11, 5 May 2023 (UTC)

I have doubts that File:Katawa Shoujo logo.png is sufficiently below the threshold of originality. Ok the text is of course, but the rest of the image? I would contend that it's not a clear cut case. --Hammersoft (talk) 21:45, 5 May 2023 (UTC)

@Hammersoft: I too wasn't sure as well which is why I asked about it at c:COM:VPC#PD-textlogo in US and Japan. -- Marchjuly (talk) 23:12, 5 May 2023 (UTC)

CandyScythe, yes I did read it. I don't think you're understanding what I'm saying. Images available under a Creative Commons NonCommercial license have to meet WP:NFCC. Since Wikipedia's content could be re-used in a commercial context, we require that images not available under a free license that is compatible with our requirements to comply with fair use law, and the more restrictive WP:NFCC policy. So, yeah they would require fair use consideration. That's where the prior discussions are relevant. --Hammersoft (talk) 21:43, 5 May 2023 (UTC)

@Marchjuly This question really spurred from the other images (screenshots) in the Katawa article, as the game is NCND CC licensed, and the images could therefore, in theory, have been of much higher quality, as they originally had been, before a bot had reduced them years after they were added.

I see now that this is an ideological choice rather than a legal requirement that Wikipedia has to follow, but I do question its reasoning. I understand that we cannot use a license saying "only Wikipedia can use this", as that would prevent mirroring and other reuse, but as a CC license would not restrict reusers any more than it would Wikipedia, I fail to see why it would not be preferable to a claim of fair use. Obviously, it would not be ideal, but more so than fair use. Best, CandyScythe (talk) 21:48, 5 May 2023 (UTC)

Reduced size makes sense for commercial images, as it goes to minimal use and respect for commercial opportunities, but there is no reason whatsoever for applying it to non-commercial images. Other requirements such as a rationale are reasonable, but the size reduction makes no sense at all. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 22:25, 5 May 2023 (UTC)

@CandyScythe: Once again, my understanding is that NC, ND and NCND aren't accepted by the WMF when it comes to CC licenses. I guess you could propose that they should be, but that would probably need to be done at WP:COPY or WP:VPP since essentially you seem to be asking for a new category of licensing be created between WP:COPY#Guidelines for images and other media files and WP:NFC. -- Marchjuly (talk) 23:39, 5 May 2023 (UTC)

My understanding is that this is not a WMF issue, but an English Wikipedia one. While the WMF considers those licenses non-free, the licensing policy authorizes projects to develop and adopt an Exemption Doctrine Policy consistent with the resolution. Maybe a more formal request for comment might be in order, given that even experienced editors appear to have diverging views on this. Best, CandyScythe (talk) 23:56, 5 May 2023 (UTC)

But as I pointed out, the WMF resolution requires that we encourage free image (ones free to redistribute and modify by anyone without limitation) and take steps to limit all others - the non-free. How to do that is up to each project, but that still means that a CC-NC license is a non-free file. While we could use such images at full size, we also want to make sure that those wanting to reuse WP content have the best chance, and thus we follow the same approach for CC-NC as if they were copyrighted works. Masem (t) 00:27, 6 May 2023 (UTC)

@Hawkeye7: I'm unsure if there's one clear cut way to assess whether a file is "commercial" or "non-commercial" since how it is being re-used probably depends on who ultimately is re-using it. There may and likely will be differences in opinion among Wikipedia users as to whether a particular file has viable commercial applications and thus needs to be reduced per WP:NFCC#3b (i.e. WP:IMAGERES). There is, however, no way to know that until it has been uploaded and assessed. Since all ten WP:NFCCP need to be met for a non-free use to be considered valid, files may need to be discussed on a per image basis at WP:FFD to see whether a consensus is established for it not needing to be reduced. You could try WP:BOLDy adding {{Non-free no reduce}} to a file's page, but this could be challenged by someone else and you're back to FFD to see whether a consensus could be established. -- Marchjuly (talk) 23:39, 5 May 2023 (UTC)

If a copyright owner has licensed the file to the general public under a CC license, then I don't see how Wikipedia's use of that file under the license could in any way affect the copyright holder's commercial opportunities. So I don't think there would be any need to assess whether the file has "viable commercial applications". Best, CandyScythe (talk) 00:23, 6 May 2023 (UTC)

Use by Wikipedia isn't the only thing that is being considered. If that were the case, then simple fair use would most likely be sufficient for Wikipedia's purposes. Reuse by Wikipedia downstream users also seems to be considered, and for that the WMF seems to want make the content it hosts as free as possible to make it as easy to reuse as possible. -- Marchjuly (talk) 02:16, 6 May 2023 (UTC)

I'm talking about Creative Commons Non-Commercial (CC-NC) licensed images, of which I have a large number, many created by myself. That they are non-commercial is not in dispute - it is written in the licence. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 00:28, 6 May 2023 (UTC)

Content licensed as CC-NC can be uploaded locally to Wikipedia as non-free content, but it still needs to meet all ten NFCCP. If you feel a file shouldn't be reduced, then that can be discussed on a per file basis. If a consensus is established that it shouldn't be reduced, then it won't. A CC-NC license, however, is still less free for Wikipedia's purposes than, for example, a CC-by-SA license, which means that the NC file would still need to meet WP:FREER to be OK as non-free. -- Marchjuly (talk) 02:16, 6 May 2023 (UTC)

You seem to possibly be misunderstanding what is meant by non-commercial. Say I was to take one of your images and use it as a book's cover art and sell the book. That would undeniably be commercial use by me. If your license only allowed non-commercial use that would also not be use in accordance with your licence and likely to be copyright infringement. Same image used in a news story about your work, even one that charges money, is likely to be fair use, fair dealing and similar. If the publication is not for profit it might or might not be non-commercial depending on use and licence details. In addition, your use of a license like CC-NC that doesn't allow commercial reuse makes your images almost certainly incompatible with Wikipedia's objectives, which include commercial reuse. If you wish to see them widely used in Wikipedia you're going to need to use a license which allows commercial reuse. Jamesday (talk) 22:42, 20 May 2023 (UTC)

 You are invited to join the discussion at Wikipedia:Village pump (policy) § RfC: Non-free licensed files. CandyScythe (talk) 10:28, 6 May 2023 (UTC)

File:CFL SSK Jersey.png

This non-free image was previously in use on 2019 Saskatchewan Roughriders season, 2020 Saskatchewan Roughriders season, 2021 Saskatchewan Roughriders season, 2022 Saskatchewan Roughriders season, and 2023 Saskatchewan Roughriders season. I removed the image per WP:NFC#UUI #17, since it's the logo that is the copyrightable part. I also removed the rationales for use on those articles from the image description page. I was reverted by @Cmm3:, who indicated that the image isn't a logo therefore WP:NFC#UUI #17 doesn't apply. I started a discussion on their talk page, noting that the logo is the only thing that's copyrightable on the image, and thus it does apply even if we did use that assertion. I wouldn't mind extra eyes on that. Further, I'm curious what others might think about this image being not eligible for copyright, as the logo is very poor resolution and at this resolution it's little more than a styled "S". Thoughts? --Hammersoft (talk) 03:00, 11 May 2023 (UTC)

It seems like WP:FREER might apply here in a couple of ways. First, I think there are ways for generic images of uniforms to be created in infoboxes using templates or other wikicode (at least that seems to be what is done for soccer teams). Even if that can't be worked out for professional football teams, the primary teams colors should be something that can be sufficiently understood from text alone without the reader needed to see a non-free image. However, if a non-free image of a team's uniform is deemed justifiable per WP:NFCCP, it would seem that only the use in the primary article about the team itself would be a valid non-free use. Trying to use the same image in other article (e.g. individual season articles) would be a violation of WP:NFCC#3, except in cases where perhaps there's a strong contextual connection between a particular uniform design and a particular season (e.g. an anniversary or other type of commemorative season). The way I look at WP:NFC#UUI is that it's intended to provide some examples of non-free content use which are generally not considered acceptable. So, item 17 of WP:NFC#UUI specifically making reference to logos doesn't mean its application is stricly limited to logos; logos are just one example (a common example) of unnecessarily repetative non-free use and item 17 could be applied to other types of non-free content as well, at least in my opinion.

As for whether File:Saskatchewan Roughriders logo.svg needs to be non-free, that's an interesting question. c:COM:TOO United States and c:COM:TOO Canada seem to be similar and there are logos with a similar degree of complexity found on Commons as {{PD-logo}}. Even if it were only PD in the US, {{PD-ineligible-USonly}} could be worth considering. The helmet logo seems to be the only possible copyrightable element of the entire uniform and if that's not a problem, then there's should be no reason why File:CFL SSK Jersey.png needs to be non-free. Finally, just going to provide a link to c:Category:National Football League uniforms for reference. I'm not stating all of the uniform files in that category are OK for Commons (some probably aren't due to the copyright status of the helmet logo), but the unforms themselves should be considered utilitarian enough per c:COM:CB#Clothing to, in principle, not be eligible for copyright protection under US copyright law. -- Marchjuly (talk) 03:56, 11 May 2023 (UTC)

Okay, so is it against the rules for uniform images to be included in season-by-season articles? Cmm3 (talk) 19:01, 12 May 2023 (UTC)

If they are non-free images, yes. Some are not non-free. --Hammersoft (talk) 11:25, 13 May 2023 (UTC)

I would like a different opinion for confirmation. Cmm3 (talk) 16:30, 13 May 2023 (UTC)

Hammersoft is correct. -- Whpq (talk) 17:17, 13 May 2023 (UTC)

There is one allowance for non-frees on season pages. If a new uniform is introduced and some discussion about the new uniform is discussed through sources, then it is fair to introduce the non-free image of the uniform though not in the infobox but where the uniform change is made. Masem (t) 17:38, 13 May 2023 (UTC)