*::Like the Mongol Empire, I agree with @[[User:PadFoot2008|PadFoot2008]] they could not have had control over all the nomadic tribes. [[User:DrDuke101|ᗟ𝖗ᗟ𝓊𝑘𝘦💀]] ([[User talk:DrDuke101|talk]]) 09:17, 1 September 2023 (UTC)
*::Like the Mongol Empire, I agree with @[[User:PadFoot2008|PadFoot2008]] they could not have had control over all the nomadic tribes. [[User:DrDuke101|ᗟ𝖗ᗟ𝓊𝑘𝘦💀]] ([[User talk:DrDuke101|talk]]) 09:17, 1 September 2023 (UTC)
*:::The Mongol's typically attacked sedentary states and wreaked havoc on their populations. Entire cities were depopulated. [[Tamerlane]]'s empire included Delhi, where after massacring the city's inhabitants irrespective of religion, he left behind a token ruler. Ashoka may have done that in Kalinga a millennium and half earlier, but Kalinga is not among the holes, i.e. in green. The holes, in other words, are regions in which the Mauryas left behind no evidence of a presence, not even of an occasional trespass. [[User:Fowler&fowler|<span style="color:#B8860B">Fowler&fowler</span>]][[User talk:Fowler&fowler|<span style="color:#708090">«Talk»</span>]] 11:14, 1 September 2023 (UTC)
*:::The Mongol's typically attacked sedentary states and wreaked havoc on their populations. Entire cities were depopulated. [[Tamerlane]]'s empire included Delhi, where after massacring the city's inhabitants irrespective of religion, he left behind a token ruler. Ashoka may have done that in Kalinga a millennium and half earlier, but Kalinga is not among the holes, i.e. in green. The holes, in other words, are regions in which the Mauryas left behind no evidence of a presence, not even of an occasional trespass. [[User:Fowler&fowler|<span style="color:#B8860B">Fowler&fowler</span>]][[User talk:Fowler&fowler|<span style="color:#708090">«Talk»</span>]] 11:14, 1 September 2023 (UTC)
*::::Even if the Mauryans didn’t leave any evidence of their presence, that does not mean that they did not control or rule the area. Even if they did control the area, there is no proof of that now as it could be that the evidence (structures built by the Mauryans or something else) has been destroyed as it was so long ago. We don’t know if they did rule those areas or not. In conclusion, I feel this is a better map as it does seem a little weird or you could say ‘out of place’ to have two maps on one page. Not many Wikipedia pages have two maps on one Kingdom or Empire. [[User:DrDuke101|ᗟ𝖗ᗟ𝓊𝑘𝘦💀]] ([[User talk:DrDuke101|talk]]) 16:34, 3 September 2023 (UTC)
*:And by the evidence of which sources? [[User:Fowler&fowler|<span style="color:#B8860B">Fowler&fowler</span>]][[User talk:Fowler&fowler|<span style="color:#708090">«Talk»</span>]] 09:26, 31 August 2023 (UTC)
*:And by the evidence of which sources? [[User:Fowler&fowler|<span style="color:#B8860B">Fowler&fowler</span>]][[User talk:Fowler&fowler|<span style="color:#708090">«Talk»</span>]] 09:26, 31 August 2023 (UTC)
Revision as of 16:34, 3 September 2023
This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the Maurya Empire article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject.
This article is within the scope of WikiProject India, which aims to improve Wikipedia's coverage of India-related topics. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page.IndiaWikipedia:WikiProject IndiaTemplate:WikiProject IndiaIndia articles
This article is within the scope of WikiProject Former countries, a collaborative effort to improve Wikipedia's coverage of defunct states and territories (and their subdivisions). If you would like to participate, please join the project.Former countriesWikipedia:WikiProject Former countriesTemplate:WikiProject Former countriesformer country articles
This article is within the scope of WikiProject Nepal, which aims to improve Wikipedia's coverage of Nepal-related topics. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page and add your name to the member's list.NepalWikipedia:WikiProject NepalTemplate:WikiProject NepalNepal articles
Among the Indo-Aryan people of the Gangetic plain, who were conquered by the Mauryan Empire, the caste system was consolidated, and the rights of women declined, though "these developments did not affect people living in large parts of the subcontinent. can we please remove this line
it isnt supported anywhere, its just a big myth. please look at these references https://books.google.co.in/books?id=uYXDB2gIYbwC&pg=PA133&redir_esc=y#v=onepage&q&f=false
Hello all, I want to suggest a new map which has been put below instead of the second map in the infobox. I am going to put both maps here, it would be good if we can reach a consensus (the first one is the new map)!
As a fan of Joppen's maps, I normally would have little argument with your proposal, but the lower, fuller, map in the current infobox has been made by user:Avantiputra7 based on maps or details in the sources that are listed in the map's caption. It, moreover, displays the sites of Asoka's edicts, which Joppen's map does not, though it does display the physical features very well. PS I have the original atlas of Joppen 1907 and I can scan a higher-def version of your proposed map, if I haven't already uploaded it on WP. Thanks, Fowler&fowler«Talk»20:18, 4 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I appreciate your engagement in this matter. Allow me to provide some additional context regarding the request for the removal of the second map in the same style.
While I understand that the existing maps share a similar style and level of detail, the concern regarding the second map revolves around its historical accuracy and authenticity. It has come to attention that this particular map might not be aligned with the latest research findings from reputable historical sources and institutions.
The reasons for the request to remove the second map are centered on the following key points:
Ensuring Historical Accuracy: It is imperative that any map featured on Wikipedia accurately reflects historical information. The concerns raised about the authenticity of the second map highlight potential inaccuracies that could mislead readers seeking precise historical details.
Scholarly Endorsement: The omission of the second map from official Indian history textbooks and the lack of endorsement by the Indian Archaeological Survey of India raise doubts about its reliability as an accurate representation of historical events and boundaries.
Mitigating Misinformation: As Wikipedia aims to provide accurate and reliable information, the presence of a map that may not be historically sound could inadvertently contribute to the dissemination of misinformation.
I kindly request your understanding in considering these concerns. While both maps may share a similar style, it is vital that the content presented on Wikipedia maintains the highest standards of historical accuracy and integrity. If there are ways to address the potential issues with the second map like this -
re "Ensuring Historical Accuracy": the Avantiputra7-map has muliple references;
re "Scholarly Endorsement": lack of endorsement by the ASI may actually be an endorsement by itself; but maybe you've got sources which explicitly oppose the authors referenced by Avantiputra7?;
re "Mitigating Misinformation": again, multiple sources; please substantiate your suggestion that the map may not be historically accurate.
Point 1- Chandrgupta Maurya (322BCE) already won the Aria ,Kamboj ,Arachosia ,Gedrosia from Selucus.That map don't show Aria,Arachosia ,Gedrosia in Mauryan Empire.
Point 2- Ashoka defeated the Kalinga but this map don't show Kalinga in Mauryan Empire.
Point 3- I have checked the reference that given in the name of historians but all the references are fake , on opening these books pages they're not contain any information about Mauryan Empire expansion like this.
Wikipedia is for providing authentic information not to promote such hoax 😞.I think any narrow minded person created this pic by his own and add this pic a year later just to defame buddhist Ashoka Empire.
Request for Deletion of Inaccurate Mauryan Empire Map on Wikipedia
Dear Wikipedia Admins,
I hope this message finds you well. I am writing to kindly request the deletion of an inaccurate Mauryan Empire map that is currently featured on a Wikipedia page. The map in question has raised concerns regarding its historical accuracy, authenticity, and its alignment with established scholarly standards. I believe that its removal would greatly contribute to maintaining the integrity and reliability of the content on Wikipedia.
Several compelling reasons support the need for the removal of this misrepresented map:
Historical Inaccuracy: The map inaccurately depicts the territorial extent and boundaries of the Mauryan Empire, potentially misleading readers who are seeking precise historical information.
Lack of Archaeological Endorsement: The Indian Archaeological Survey of India, a recognized authority in historical research, has not validated the authenticity of the map. The absence of archaeological support further questions its reliability.
Exclusion from Educational Materials: The misrepresented map is notably absent from Indian history textbooks, which are widely acknowledged as reliable sources of historical information. This omission raises doubts about its credibility and historical accuracy.
Potential Dissemination of Misinformation: Including an unsupported map can inadvertently spread misinformation, undermining the educational value that Wikipedia aims to provide.
Maintaining Scholarly Standards: Wikipedia serves as a platform for sharing accurate and well-researched information. The inclusion of an inaccurate map contradicts this goal and may compromise the platform's reputation.
Avoiding Bias and Misrepresentation: The misrepresented map may introduce bias or misconceptions to readers seeking unbiased historical information.
Considering these concerns, I kindly request the deletion of the inaccurate Mauryan Empire map from the Wikipedia page. Doing so will contribute to upholding the principles of scholarly accuracy, neutrality, and responsible information dissemination that Wikipedia represents.
Thank you for your time and attention to this matter. Your dedication to maintaining the reliability and credibility of Wikipedia is greatly appreciated. Please let me know if there are any further steps or information required to facilitate the removal of the inaccurate map.
^ abStein, Burton (2010), A History of India, John Wiley & Sons, p. 74, ISBN978-1-4443-2351-1, In the past it was not uncommon for historians to conflate the vast space thus outlined with the oppressive realm described in the Arthashastra and to posit one of the earliest and certainly one of the largest totalitarian regimes in all of history. Such a picture is no longer considered believable; at present what is taken to be the realm of Ashoka is a discontinuous set of several core regions separated by very large areas occupied by relatively autonomous peoples.
^ abCite error: The named reference Ludden2013-lead-4 was invoked but never defined (see the help page).
^ abDyson, Tim (2018), A Population History of India: From the First Modern People to the Present Day, Oxford University Press, pp. 16–17, ISBN978-0-19-882905-8, Magadha power came to extend over the main cities and communication routes of the Ganges basin. Then, under Chandragupta Maurya (c.321–297 bce), and subsequently Ashoka his grandson, Pataliputra became the centre of the loose-knit Mauryan 'Empire' which during Ashoka's reign (c.268–232 bce) briefly had a presence throughout the main urban centres and arteries of the subcontinent, except for the extreme south.
🧾 Reasons -
Point 1- Chandrgupta Maurya (322BCE) already won the Aria ,Kamboj ,Arachosia ,Gedrosia from Selucus.That map don't show Aria,Arachosia ,Gedrosia.
Point 2- Ashoka defeated the Kalinga but this map don't show Kalinga in Mauryan Empire.
Point 3- I have checked the reference that given in the name of historians but all the references are fake , on opening these books pages they're not contain any information about Mauryan Empire expansion like this.
Wikipedia is for providing authentic information not to promote such hoax 😞.
In the past it was not uncommon for historians to conflate the vast space thus outlined with the oppressive realm described in the Arthashastra and to posit one of the earliest and certainly one of the largest totalitarian regimes in all of history. Such a picture is no longer considered believable; at present what is taken to be the realm of Ashoka is a discontinuous set of several core regions separated by very large areas occupied by relatively autonomous peoples.
also Joshua all the reference given in the text are referring the place as ancient India or Indian subcontinent there is not a single mention of South Asia so please don't mention South Asia according to yourself let it be instant India or Indian subcontinent. Vkk123 (talk) 18:52, 20 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
It's the same place - don't get worked up about it. The trouble with talking about "ancient India" is that many will not realize this includes the area of modern Pakistan (and sometimes Nepal etc). Johnbod (talk) 20:04, 20 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
then term Indian continent should not have any problem, and I also respectfully told you that South Asia is a political term mostly, For geographical term, in historical prospective, we use Indian subcontinent.
it was not Afghanistan where Maurya Empire started , and you will also see in every history books in any country that maren empire is called ancient Kingdom of India, South Asia is political term just because few parts of Afghanistan was added during mauryan Empire the whole Empire cannot become something else. just for example Qing dynasty of China is called dynasty of ancient China but there was no China then and the land of Qing dynasty extended to present day Mongolia and Russia but it is still called Chinese dynasty. Vkk123 (talk) 04:27, 22 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
when Chinese dynasty who extended to other parts of the country that exist now and still be called Chinese Empire or Chinese dynasty of ancient China then I don't find anything wrong with ancient India or Indian subcontinent, and also for example the crown rule in India is called British India not British South Asia because at that time whole South Asia was united India, so history is not written according to what things are now history is written what was then. Vkk123 (talk) 04:29, 22 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
please aslo have a look on Britannica link and other reliable article about mauryan Empire it all mention Ancient india or indian subcontinent, Wikipedia cannot just make things up itself Wikipedia is a compilation of knowledge from different sources so Wikipedia should use the term that is used in history books or articles. Vkk123 (talk) 04:44, 22 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I feel “South Asia” is a better term vis-a-vis “Indian subcontinent ” as the Mauryan Empire included Afghanistan (which is not part of the subcontinent) during the reign of Ashoka (I may be wrong about which Mauryan emperor conquered Afghanista more..), thanks ᗟ𝖗ᗟ𝓊𝑘𝘦💀 (talk) 08:35, 22 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Qing dynasty aslo included present a Mongolia and parts of Russia then why it is called ancient Chinese dynasty and not East Asian dynasty change that please.. Vkk123 (talk) 13:18, 22 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The term “South Asia” gives a more inclusive and accurate understanding of the countries associated with the Mauryan empire i.e. India, Nepal, Pakistan, Afghanistan etc. As Afghanistan was not part of the subcontinent I strongly believe this is the correct way of addressing the region that the empire governed.
My answer related to the Qing dynasty is that historically Mongolia was part of China due to so many imperial dynasties of China which governed China and Mongolia for example the Yuan dynasty (Genghis’ successors in China & Mongolia). I feel this is the reason why it was called the Chinese Imperial dynasty rather than East Asian dynasty.
Lastly, due to Afghanistan being part of the Mauryan empire we cannot say ancient India as it will denote that Afghanistan is a part of the Indian subcontinent (which it is not).
These are my views and of course it’s up to the community to decide which option is better. I hope we can reach a consensus quickly. Thanks! ᗟ𝖗ᗟ𝓊𝑘𝘦💀 (talk) 14:35, 22 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Qing dynasty also included parts of Russia ,was Russia and china also same?? I believe ancient Indian should be used because its capital, culture, religion all were from India. Qing cannot be Chinese dynasty vid Maurya is not Indian..?? Vkk123 (talk) 17:31, 22 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The Qing dynasty’s expansion into parts of Russia does not imply that China & Russia were one single country. Russia has its own history, culture etc as with China. Russia had interactions with China during the time that the Qing dynasty ruled China & Mongolia but that does not mean that Russia was part of the Qing empire. ᗟ𝖗ᗟ𝓊𝑘𝘦💀 (talk) 09:02, 23 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
also South Asia does not give the accurate geography of mauryan Empire when it is called India people do understand that it had Indian culture Indian religion which South Asia does not give, today South Asia has Muslim population but at that time there was no Islam so when you use South Asia it actually destroy the meaning of Marian empires history, Mauryan Empire is always called in ancient Indian kingdom, except Wikipedia, I guess people like you are the reason why. Vkk123 (talk) 17:33, 22 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Proposal for a synthetic map of the Maurya Empire in the infobox
Maurya Empire synthetic map 250 BCE
We keep seeing disputes about the two rather different maps of the Mauyra Empire standing side-by-side in the infobox... It is indeed rather confusing and unsatisfactory to have two rather contradictory depictions, and this format is indeed rarely, if ever, seen on Wikipedia pages. The map with "holes" is understandable as an illustration to a academic point (that some areas were not under direct and complete Mauryan jurisdiction, such as desert areas, or areas belonging to "relatively autonomous peoples" (my emphasis), per Burton Stein (2010)), but this format is rarely seen and contradicts many standard visualizations of the Mauryan realm, as reflected by the second map. Arguably many maps of ancient empires should also have "holes" in them if we were supposed to show areas of more teneous control... As a solution, I suggest we could adopt a single synthetic map, that would show both the general extent of the Maurya Empire, and illustrate in lighter shades areas where Mauryan control was arguably minimal. I am attaching a proposal, which is simply the combination by transparency of the two previous maps. Of course the caption would also be a combination of the two current captions in the infobox. Comments welcome. पाटलिपुत्र (Pataliputra)(talk)12:59, 23 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
You haven't quoted Burton Stein accurately. He refers to the loose-knit empire of the Mauryas in two places: On page 83 (2nd edition) he says:
In the past it was not uncommon for historians to conflate the vast space thus outlined with the oppressive realm described in the Arthashastra and to posit one of the earliest and certainly one of the largest totalitarian regimes in all of history. Such a picture is no longer considered believable; at present what is taken to be the realm of Ashoka is a discontinuous set of several core regions separated by very large areas occupied by relatively autonomous peoples.
and on page 87 he says,
The multiplicity of ways in which the people of the imperial age were encouraged to recognize their connections with others narrowed the scope of political integration. That is, while there might be claims to enormous realms, such as Ashoka’s, they actually referred to very porous entities riddled with large, scattered autonomous zones, a situation that contributed to the ease with which outsiders were able to establish new ‘states’ by conquest, and, eventually, to the transformation of political formations after 500 ce, when the last of the imperial regimes, the Guptas, were driven from their northern domains.
In other words, Avantiputra7's map with holes is already too generous to the Mauryas. The holes were in fact much larger. The other problem with your use of Burton Stein is that you have quoted only one historian. There are many other modern ones of the same or similar views. Fowler&fowler«Talk»03:03, 31 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
And here is David Ludden, a major historian of agrarian India, in his India and South Asia, 2013.
Ludden's model is not a map with holes, but a spider with spindly legs :
The geography of the Mauryan Empire resembled a spider with a small dense body and long spindly legs. The highest echelons of imperial society lived in the inner circle composed of the ruler, his immediate family, other relatives, and close allies, who formed a dynastic core. Outside the core, empire travelled stringy routes dotted with armed cities. Outside the palace, in the capital cities, the highest ranks in the imperial elite were held by military commanders whose active loyalty and success in war determined imperial fortunes. Wherever these men failed or rebelled, dynastic power crumbled. ... In most janapadas, the Mauryan Empire consisted of strategic urban sites connected loosely to vast hinterlands through lineages and local elites who were there when the Mauryas arrived and were still in control when they left.
The Mauryas did not have the technology that the Romans did for the surveillance of an empire. The ruins of the Roman Empire are found everywhere, ... the roads, aqueducts, arches, and bridges. There is pretty much nothing of the Mauryas, only references in a Greek visitors history. Claims are made for a Grand Trunk road, but no ancient tracks survive. There are Asokan pillars, on the basis of which sovereignty is proclaimed, but they were most likely made by Achaemenid masons who had fled to South Asia. Fowler&fowler«Talk»03:44, 31 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The reason we don't find much of mauryans is simple. Most of the structures were made of perishable materials primarily of wood and mud. They don't survive 2000 years . This can also be verified by Megasthenes accounts and vedic sources
I'm sorry but you saying we only get reference of mauryans in greek history is so blatantly ignorant and disrespectful. A great amount of information about mauryans comes from the indigenous sources only like puranas , buddhist sources and jain sources . Even some contemporary texts like arthashastra provides a great amount of information.
Comparison with Romans is incredibly stupid, they existed at far too big of a timeline and mostly built materials mainly of stones.
Climatic conditions also play a very big role . Climate of India is incredibly hot and humid. Most of the structures and manuscripts don't survive in these conditions for to long.
Also there is literally no evidence to suggest these pillars were made by achaemenid masons . This theory was propagated by Western historians in early 20th century. After that we have various Art historians like V.S Agrawala
Please read Lion capital of Ashoka. V.S. Agarwala is not just a outdated nationalist historian, but also a floundering, early, Hindu nationalist historian. The story that ancient South Asians were making everything in wood and one fine day out of nowhere there sprouted the lions—the habitat of whose real life cousins, the preeminently West Asian animals, Panthera leo Persica did not reach Patliputra, sculpted in the finest shining marble that looked too suspiciously like those that had been made in Persepolis and Susa for 500 years—is not credible. Fowler&fowler«Talk»14:37, 31 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The seals of Mohenjo-daro, made of terra cotta, had remained in pristine condition for nearly 5,000 years; the Priest-king (sculpture) made of fired steatite has survived for as long, as has the Dancing Girl (sculpture) of Mohenjo-daro, cast in bronze, yet the Indo-Aryans, who claimed sovereignty over the same region, as did their descendants, the Mauryas, had nothing but wood, and mud, and perhaps cow-dung mixed with hay? Not credible. Fowler&fowler«Talk»14:49, 31 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
In Indus Valley civilization, the relics we found in exavation which is in good condition... But Rakhigari excavation proved that the Indus Valley civilization flourished towards eastern side of India also ...
All the inscription, pillars of Ashokas discovered by Cunningham was in barren Area... not in human populated Area. Because nearly all the 84000 STUPAS along with pillars 84000 pillars destroyed by invaders, narrow minded Brahmins. Some of them got saved because they're not in human populated area..All Girnar Rock inscription present in between dense jungles untouched from humans...
As we know Chandragupta already defeated selucus and in treaty he got Aria ,Kamboj ,Arachosia ,Gedrosia from Selucus. "
T
the four satrapies of the Gedrose, the Arachotë, the Aria, and the Paropamisadë, the River Cophes thus forming the extreme boundary of India. — Pliny, Natural History V"I,23)
And Ashoka won Kalinga is also absolute truth , his inscription is proof ...
Cunningham only did excavation where there is possibility of finding some evidence regarding Mauryans...He used Buddhist text Mahavansha and Dipavansha for exavation site confirmation...
Most of his excavation where succesful ... The region of Chattisgarh and jharkhand where you calling hole is present... because you don't know till date there was not any excavation take place at that place and also there was absence of ancient flourished city. Not even ASI (Archeological Survey Of India) interested in excavation in those region due to naxalites . Yeah those ares are affected by naxalism. These two states have 0 excavation in search of history. But there are some unknown Buddhist and Jainas temple over there....
🛡️ Now coming to other Empire
This is Sunga Empire map you used in Sunga Empire page ... But in reality historian only find inscription related to Sunga in Ayodhya and a Buddhist Bharhuta Stupa.... Does it mean that we say Sunga is limited to Ayodhya only...rest places have hole ...
The is the map of Gupta Empire you used in Gupta Empire page but in reality historian only find inscription related to Gupta's in Madhya Pradesh and Uttarpradesh only. Does it mean that we say rest of the places have hole ....
The four satrapies of the Gedrose, the Arachotë, the Aria, and the Paropamisadë, the River Cophes thus forming the extreme boundary of India. — Pliny, Natural History VI, 23) The Jain Era (talk) 03:46, 1 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I generally don't respond to editors who appear on Wikipedia to make a data dump in such a discussion in their first edit. All I can say is, "Welcome to Wikipedia." Fowler&fowler«Talk»11:20, 1 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I make account only to give my point of view.... Earlier I have a account named "Jain Media" with more than 600 edits but I forget it password... So when I saw this discussion on talk page ... I decided to make new one. The Jain Era (talk) 12:57, 1 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
What is the point, Patliputra, of adding more maps? We are not discussing other empires. It is the Mauryas, we are discussing here. The old exaggerated maps of the Mauryan empire appearing in books of colonial or nationalist historians stand much reduced in the works of modern historians. Fowler&fowler«Talk»11:27, 1 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I think we have to discuss about Sir Alexander Cunningham opinion as he spend their life in excavation of Ashoka stupas and pillars.... Smith is also backbone for Mauryan history...
Later we should take Indica fragments reference, Buddhist and jaina Texts reference for clarification .
And Rudradaman Inscription of Junagarh mentioned that Chandrgupta Maurya built a Lake named Sudarshana ... Which is also present till date... So that's means Chandragupta was the ruler of that Gujarat+Rajasthan region also... The Jain Era (talk) 13:04, 1 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Support, I feel this is a much better option than having two maps which can create confusion for readers and I think this would decrease the number of disputes on this topic. Thanks! ᗟ𝖗ᗟ𝓊𝑘𝘦💀 (talk) 14:29, 23 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
How do you assign a shade of brown to the holes, which most modern historians and archaeologists—who have spent years poring over primary sources or doing field work— consider to be regions into which the Mauryas had never ventured? What historiographic faith do you place in dated nationalist histories such as R. C. Majumdar's or more dated imperial histories such as those of Vincent Smith, who in retirement traded his vocation of civil servant with the avocation of historian?
My copy of Vincent Smith is of 1920 before IVC had been rediscovered. My copy of Majumdar is from 1950 with content from before India had become a republic. Fowler&fowler«Talk»19:11, 31 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose strongly. The maps were produced by Wikipedia's graphics specialist Avantiputra7 and are the result of much thought and research. They appear one above the other, not side by side. The map appearing above is the more modern, accurate, map, cited to the major historians and has also appeared in words in the lead of the FA India for 12 years.
The map below is the old-fashioned conventional map, showing the maximum geographical extent of the Mauryas. It is the subordinate map, the less favored map. I have enough respect Avantiputra7's skills and neutrality that I would not mangle those maps in a substandard manner. Fowler&fowler«Talk»10:11, 24 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
PS The lead of this article, whose rewriting was supervised by a WP administrator also favors the map with holes. The lead is cited to historical demographer Tim Dyson's A population history of India, Oxford 2019. Fowler&fowler«Talk»10:30, 24 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Neutral/mildly oppose - while the sythetic map is also acceptable informative, I really like to have the two maps together. They illustrate very clearly what differnce various representations of territorial realms make; one, which implicitly supports notions of 'greatness', and thus 'superiority'; and the other, which shows the complexities of history and social-geographical realities which shape territorial realms. While the synthetic map shows this too, having the two maps also shows how perceptions are shaped. And that's something I really like, and find very informative. Joshua Jonathan - Let's talk!14:02, 24 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I'll go with the synthetic one. Completely agreeing that this should resolve most disputes and that many empires should have holes if considered. Bhuvii9 (talk) 17:11, 24 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The Mongol's typically attacked sedentary states and wreaked havoc on their populations. Entire cities were depopulated. Tamerlane's empire included Delhi, where after massacring the city's inhabitants irrespective of religion, he left behind a token ruler. Ashoka may have done that in Kalinga a millennium and half earlier, but Kalinga is not among the holes, i.e. in green. The holes, in other words, are regions in which the Mauryas left behind no evidence of a presence, not even of an occasional trespass. Fowler&fowler«Talk»11:14, 1 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Even if the Mauryans didn’t leave any evidence of their presence, that does not mean that they did not control or rule the area. Even if they did control the area, there is no proof of that now as it could be that the evidence (structures built by the Mauryans or something else) has been destroyed as it was so long ago. We don’t know if they did rule those areas or not. In conclusion, I feel this is a better map as it does seem a little weird or you could say ‘out of place’ to have two maps on one page. Not many Wikipedia pages have two maps on one Kingdom or Empire. ᗟ𝖗ᗟ𝓊𝑘𝘦💀 (talk) 16:34, 3 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
There is a fourth, and bigger, problem with the synthetic map. It is the shade chosen for the holes. It has too much brown in it. Mauryan sovereignty over the holes was somewhere between barely nominal and nonexistent. The holes need to have more green in them, much, much, more.
There is a fifth problem. In a physical map, in which light brown is also employed to display elevation, the synthetic map creates the impression that the holes are merely Mauryan areas with some distinctive physical features. Fowler&fowler«Talk»14:57, 31 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
In sum, this is another example of the original research on images, that you, Patliputra, have been engaged in for far too long on Wikipedia. It is high time you stopped. You waste the time of productive editors. You have created contaminated histories across a vast realm of topics. Fowler&fowler«Talk»16:01, 31 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
No need to accuse Pat of original research; this is a good faith attempt to solve an ongoing opposition against using two maps. Which (the opposition), actually, shouldn't need discussion at all; the holes-map is well documented. Joshua Jonathan - Let's talk!05:54, 2 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Ouch. I didn't expect you to come biting at me like that. My support was based on @पाटलिपुत्र's claim that many ancient empires would have holes in them, if we were to show areas of less control. I mean you do not expect the Mongols to have specifically established their rule over every nomad tribe, right? Still I think I am going to withdraw mine. I don't think I am very welcome here. PadFoot2008 (talk) 01:14, 1 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Not at all. Not biting you. We are talking about a resolutely ahistorical culture, @PadFoot2008:, about which the sources are flimsy, either occasional Greek visitors or books such as the Arthashastra, which was written centuries later. How come there was no Megasthenes among the Indo=Aryans, none in the centuries before and none after, only endless mythology in which a reader is hard-pressed to find evidence of real polities? What evidence there is is at the level of Homer, i.e. mythologized history. And Megastheses was a minor Greek historian. There were many others before the third century BCE who had left behind impeccable records. I am suggesting that the Mauryas did not have the level of organization, settled organization, to have sovereignty over such a large region, and modern maps attest that. Fowler&fowler«Talk»11:36, 1 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I think I don't have the level of expertise required here. You are an experienced editor and I respect you for that. I am going to be neutral. Thank you. PadFoot2008 (talk) 11:47, 1 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
If you chalk up Homer to be a mythologist and Herodotus as unreliable, there were still Thucydides, Ctesias (who produced histories of Achaemenid Persia and even of what was thought to be India), and Xenophon, all of whom had preceded the Mauryas. Where was the reverse curiosity, i.e. evidence of the Mauryas visiting Greece, of Mauryan ambassadors in Greek city states leaving records of visits? Fowler&fowler«Talk»11:38, 1 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
