Talk:Barack Obama

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Smoking

Would the fascists who control this article allow some mention of his smoking habit? This been discussed quite a bit in the media and could become a campaign issue. Of course, if we want the article to remain an Obama advertisement, we might want to sweep his nicotine addiction under the rug. Ogeez 19:53, 28 February 2007 (UTC)

That's not very civil. A better way to describe it would be this: "Obama's cigarette smoking is getting increased press coverage lately and I think it merits mention in this article. I believe there was a poll out recently (the standard "Would you vote for a qualified _____ for president?" poll) which showed that a large percentage of people would not. I think this merits mention in the article." I would agree that it should go on his campaign page, but not here. The fact that Senator Obama smokes is not notable. The fact that it may affect his campaign, and that his campaign has responded with a "Quit Smoking With Barack" program, is. But not here. Lots of people smoke. Mykll42 20:07, 28 February 2007 (UTC)

So basically the answer is, "No, but we can stick it in an article that no one will ever read." Out of curiosity, does the Obama campaign have a full time staff of volunteers devoted to running this article? There's nothing to prevent that from happening. Given the way any mildly negative information gets suppressed, it wouldn't surprise me. The ironic thing is I think Obama would be better served by un unbiased account of his potential strengths and flaws. But I guess you would rather make this into a second Obama campaign web site. Maybe we should put up a link where people can make donations. Ogeez 22:02, 28 February 2007 (UTC)

I personally don't think his being a smoker is negative information and I think his attempt to quit will strike a positive chord with the electorate. My problems with it are not the NPOV issues but the notability issue. About 25% of Americans smoke. I do agree that the election page could be more prominent. Oh, and I don't work for the Obama campaign. Please be civil. Mykll42 22:13, 28 February 2007 (UTC)

Please be civil Ogeez and assume good faith of other editors. Referring to editors as "fascists" or accusing editors of working for Obama is not a good way to go about improving this article or any articles on Wikipedia. This article is NPOV and well referenced. It was even a featured article at one point. The Obama smoking issue is not relevant to his notability, per BLP. I understand he has recently quit (or is still currently trying to quit), and this fact may be relevant given that it's generated the note that it has (do a google search for Obama quit smoking if you must), but since he's decided to quit and there's not been any proof of him smoking since, calling him a smoker in this article would qualify as original research, which is not allowed. I know it may appear this article is biased in favor of him, but it has been strictly upheld and maintained per wikipedia policies. Obama just happens to not have generated a lot of negative note, (real) criticism, or (real) controversy. The only thing I can think of that happened recently is the Fox News and Insight Magazine fabrication about him being "muslim", which even then can't be included in his article because 1. The story is false 2. It could only go in the articles for Fox News Controversies and Insight Magazine.

It might help not to look at articles like "We need to have a balanced amount of positive and negative information in this article". Rather, look at it like "We need to use NPOV language/wording, and include relevant, notable information about this person/thing/place/idea in order to represent accurately the person/thing/place/idea we are writing an article about." --Ubiq 23:28, 28 February 2007 (UTC)

Just look back at the rest of this talk page. Every time something negative comes up, it is deemed "not notable." Yet the article includes shameless puffery such as: "The Washington Post noted his ability to work effectively with both Democrats and Republicans, and to build bipartisan coalitions." Is there any other politician who gets this type of treatment? I make no apologies for referring to the editors of this article as fascists, nor for accusing them of working for Obama. Just because they use polite language and come up with excuses like "undue weight" for rejecting negative information does not justify the ridiculous pro-Obama bias of this article. It's not like you're fooling anyone. People will come here looking for answers to questions like "Does he smoke?" or "Is he Muslim?" and instead see this puff-piece that refuses even to acknowledge these issues. Ogeez 00:13, 1 March 2007 (UTC)

Maybe because he isn't Muslim. It is clearly indicated in its own section that he joined the United Church of Christ in his 20s. The only issue I have is that more should be explained about how his mom disliked organized religion and his step-father was somewhat secular also. That would finally clear up the whole Muslim thing. But this is completely offtopic. As for on topic stuff, WP:SMOKERS clearly says quitting or smoking does not matter unless it plays an integral part of his life. Sure there are "multiple available citations" but that "does not mean it is notable for inclusion in a Wikipedia article." Gdo01 00:23, 1 March 2007 (UTC)

Stop right there. WP:SMOKERS is an essay I assembled, one looking for consensus concerning article subjects who are smokers. It is not in any way official policy. I myself am actually of the opinion that Obama's public effort to quit smoking is notable enough for inclusion in the article. Italiavivi 02:42, 1 March 2007 (UTC)

My mistake but I still don't think quitting smoking is important until he makes it important. He only seriously addressed it once and has not seemed to address it again. Gdo01 00:04, 4 March 2007 (UTC)

Ok. You win. According to official Wikipedia policy, we are not allowed to mention the smoking habits of a guy who wants to be president of the United States and a role model for children. You guys certainly know Wikipedia policy better than I do. I'll give you that much. Maybe we could start a new policy on WP:How_his_parents_met that would say statements like this are not notable: "His parents met while both were attending the East-West Center of the University of Hawaii at Manoa, where his father was enrolled as a foreign student." Or is that more important that his smoking? Ogeez 00:39, 1 March 2007 (UTC)

Yeah, I'm going to ask you again to not call me a fascist. The object here is to create an encyclopedia article. Between 15-25% of Americans smoke. Barack Obama the Senator smoking is not notable. As an aspect of his political campaign, it is. I note you haven't added anything to the (unprotected, btw) campaign page, or its discussion page for that matter. If we were truly trying to remove negative information, don't you think his past cocaine use would be the first to go? Mykll42 00:56, 1 March 2007 (UTC)

His smoking might not be notable, but his very public effort to quit smoking is. The Obamas have been very open about it, with countless reliable sources available. Italiavivi 02:50, 1 March 2007 (UTC)

Winston Churchill smoked and drank regularly. Hitler did neither. The point being, smoking has nothing to do with leadership capacity and quality. 205.202.240.101 16:33, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

I agree with the above point.

Ogeez, the article is not "ridiculously pro-Obama biased". You're not doing anything to contribute to this article or wikipedia. You came to the wrong place if you were looking to smear a presidential candidate you don't like. The purpose of an encyclopedia is to include relevant, representative information about something. That's what this article does, and it's a fine example of a good article. The problem with including a lot of the "negative" information you want to be included is, none of it is notable. Read the policy. If he were to say something blatantly racist and there was a public reaction/outcry, such that it generated plenty of note, it would be included in this article, regardless of the political affiliations of the editors. But somehow I don't see him doing something like that, so people who see him as a threat will continue coming here to find out why his article is so "biased". --Ubiq 02:57, 1 March 2007 (UTC)

I wish every political figure had as good an article as this. Steve Dufour 19:52, 1 March 2007 (UTC)

I think it would be rad to include a fully contextualized discussion of Obama's smoking including the fact that individuals with lower incomes (working-class) are more likely to smoke than those with higher incomes. Also, why doesn't GWB's page list his cocaine use? Probably it's controlled by "fascists" as well. -- Autumninjersey 18:00, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

Smokin' Obama ! Consider the moment when we first learned that Obama smoked. Did it skewer, however briefly, previous thoughts we held of him, whether yea or nay? Probably. Ok, certainly. Now, after becoming aware of such, did our opinions of him become sufficiently altered that our perception of the man took a new form? Probably, not. If we liked him, we continued to like him. If we didn't, then we continued to not. Net effect of all of this is that the smoking issue is, well, just that, an issue for each of us personally. But, is it an issue of encyclopedic proportion. History says no. Current events say yes. If we decide yes, given the current free-flowing content of Wikipedia, then logic guides to mention, for all public figures, their smoking habits [John Brown, smoker; Jane Brown, non-smoker]. Because if the smoking habit of one is sufficient for encyclopedic entry, then the non-smoking habit of another becomes equally necessary. Since no one is prepared to do that, I vote we leave it out [though it bothers me, personally, that he smokes]. --Free4It 23:01, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

I agree that including it would be an example of recentism. I don't agree that if it's included in one article, it should be included for all articles — notability of a specific event or characteristic should be determined on an article-by-article basis. I'm certainly sympathetic to the argument that it should be included since the media made a (relatively) big deal out of it a few weeks ago — this has entirely died down, though. If it comes up again in a big way in the campaign, then it should probably be included, at the very least in his 2008 campaign article as a campaign-related issue. —bbatsell ¿? ✍ 23:11, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

It bears pointing out for the sake of newer users that WP:RECENT is an opinion essay, not a Wikipedia guideline or Wikipedia policy. It is a concise expression of opinion, and does not carry inherent weight in determining article content. I am also personally of the opinion that WP:RECENT directly contradicts WP:NOTABILITY, which is a guideline, in that the notability policy specifically states that notability is generally permanent. Italiavivi 17:41, 11 March 2007 (UTC)

Update: On Larry King Live, March 19, 2007, Barack re-affirmed he is still an ex-smoker - now even more on a non-issue. There is no need to note all the ex-smokers in bios! Samatva 09:41, 20 March 2007 (UTC)

Except when they bring it up on every interview they give... Obama's made his quitting notable. --Bobblehead 04:12, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

Breaking news: Obama didn't pay some parking tickets while in college!

Hhhmm...Failure to pay a parking ticket. What a monster.

128.138.173.224 06:40, 19 March 2007 (UTC)

So, are the fascist dictator Obama hawks guarding this page going to oppress this very noteworthy information [1] [2] [3], too? Italiavivi 23:20, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

Hey, those parking tickets weren't from college; he broke the law in law school! That's like frowning in clown college: it's a serious impingement of character.--Pharos 23:33, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

Finally, a candidate who forgets to pay his parking tickets, just like me. A man of the people!

OBAMA GAINS MY VOTE.

On a serious note, please, grow up, and quit being so concerned about such petty matters. I'm sure plenty of anti-Obama editors have forgotten to pay at least one parking ticket in their lives. I'm sure I have at least five, since my old college was a pain with parking permits.

If this is the deepest dirt one can bring up about Obama, I think one needs to re-assess their own motivation. When the information arises that he killed a man and drank his blood, I'll consider it a noteworthy point. Jaywalking charges, not so much. --C.Logan 23:50, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

Damn it, sarcasm is impossible here. Please be aware that all references to "clown college" in my comments in future are to be interpreted with a grain of salt :)--Pharos 01:49, 9 March 2007 (UTC)

Oh no, my comment was more directed to the news agencies such as Fox who drum the story up, and to a lesser extent the user who posted this, although he may have been sarcastic too.--C.Logan 03:13, 9 March 2007 (UTC)

He was. Italiavivi 03:00, 11 March 2007 (UTC)

The man had to also drink his victim's blood for your noteworthiness? Truth be that all of these aspects [smoking, ticket trespasses, law school flaunting,] have an undeniable influence in our personal assessment of the man; but, not any of it needs concrete exposure in an encyclopedia. --Free4It 00:01, 9 March 2007 (UTC)

Smoking? Really? Does he eat red meat, too? I certainly hope not! Carnivores can't be leaders!

Things like smoking shouldn't really be on the radar. Really, think about that for a second. :Smoking is bad for you, but equally so are things like french fries, lack of activity, and auto emissions. However, I don't expect that the president should be a vegan cross-country runner who drives a SmartCar. To be fair, this is slightly bigger news than if Obama once hit the bumper of a parked car while backing out of a parking space.But this isn't the sort of thing that would have any effect on his campaign. The third article cited above even concludes on that note.This is, essentially, news sites scraping the bottom of the barrel for Obama dirt.--C.Logan 00:36, 9 March 2007 (UTC)

To be fair, a picture is starting to be painted here. It turns out that Obama is a product of the American melting pot, invests money at a loss, smokes, and parks illegally. I think he may have been my college roommate. Mykll42 05:57, 9 March 2007 (UTC)

I'm still trying to parse the meaning of "Obama hawks". I thought Obama followers were leftists. I thought hawks were right-wing. This is very confusing. I think I'll have a cigarette, and I don't even smoke. P.S. Be careful, though, senses of humor are a rare commodity on wikipedia. Tvoz | talk 06:11, 9 March 2007 (UTC)

That's the ironic part. Despite my troll-like language, I'm trying to make a serious point. Discussing this information just paints a more complete picture of the man. It might even help people identify with him. But there's no way I'm doing the work to research and write about these issues, only to have the secrete police delete my work. Ogeez 06:14, 9 March 2007 (UTC)

Troll like language and behavior you mean. Jiffypopmetaltop 06:37, 9 March 2007 (UTC)

Yes, the funny thing about it is that it does make me identify with him, a bit. The more politicians try to paint themselves as saints, the more your B.S. alarm goes off. Obama seems at least more genuine- he's made some of the same mistakes that I have.--C.Logan 07:08, 9 March 2007 (UTC)

All right let's stop discussing trolling stuff here. Keep focused on improving the article. thanks --– Emperor Walter Humala · ^{( talk? · help! )} 05:12, 10 March 2007 (UTC)

Oh come on, there's no harm done. Sometimes one needs a break from said improving activity. Tvoz | talk 05:15, 10 March 2007 (UTC)

well, I have to admit I was angry while typing that, sorry and no problem. see ya'll around. --– Emperor Walter Humala · ^{( talk? · help! )} 23:50, 10 March 2007 (UTC)

The exhaustive controversies survey.

Without question, Sen. Barack Obama's actions have come under intense scrutiny since announcing his bid for the White House. Allegations of controversy have arisen concerning many elements of Sen. Obama's life and person, including on this article's Talk page. Some dispute whether or not many of these elements even qualify as controversial, and many dispute these elements based upon notability. It's the goal of this survey to gather a snapshot of consensus concerning the notability of these many elements.

If you are a subscriber to the opinion essay "polls are evil," you're in no way required to participate. No one's forcing you, I simply ask that you not go out of your way to disrupt those who don't mind using a snapshot format.

I gathered most of these items from Talk page archives, and tried to present them as accurately and neutrally as possible. In some cases, I could not find extensive sources, but used the sources listed by past Talk participants. If I have missed any items/elements, feel free to add them in a sub-section with format similar to those below.

Please add *Notable or *Not notable following each item, based upon whether or not you feel each item is notable enough for inclusion in the article, then sign your vote with ~~~~.

---

2004: Denied 'unequivocally' running for president in 2008

"I was elected yesterday," Obama said. "I have never set foot in the U.S. Senate. I've never worked in Washington. And the notion that somehow I'm immediately going to start running for higher office just doesn't make sense. So look, I can unequivocally say I will not be running for national office in four years, and my entire focus is making sure that I'm the best possible senator on behalf of the people of Illinois." [4]

• Not notable. Changing one's mind is not inherently controversial; he is entitled to changing his mind without it be construed as a "controversy." Also, this detail is already prominently noted at Barack Obama presidential campaign, 2008. Italiavivi 17:32, 11 March 2007 (UTC)
• Not even close to notable, and a mile from "controversial". --jpgordon^∇∆∇∆ 18:47, 11 March 2007 (UTC)
• Not notable Any senator running for election or newly elected will deny their intention to run for future office. Mykll42 19:35, 11 March 2007 (UTC)
• Not notable Unfortunately, this is a standard politician lie. Ogeez 03:27, 12 March 2007 (UTC)
• Not notable Covered at the presidential campaign page. - PoliticalJunkie 20:35, 12 March 2007 (UTC)
• Notable - Shows his admitted lack of experience. Will definately be noted in the race! - Eisenmond 20:55, 12 March 2007 (UTC)
• Not Notable It is not uncommon for politicians to deny they will run for office days before they announce they'll run for office, I don't see why him saying he would not run in 2004 is applicable. Especially not in the main article, it might warrant a sentence in the campaign article in the History/Background. --Bobblehead 21:47, 12 March 2007 (UTC)
• Not Notableas a controversy. However, it probably should be included in a campaign article or a campaign section. Briefly Jiffypopmetaltop 19:35, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

Race and "blackness"

Since his Senate race in 2004, some American politicians and commentators, many African-American, have asserted that Sen. Obama is not "African-American" or not "black like me" because he was not descended from American slaves. His "blackness" has been questioned.

[5]

• Notable. Sen. Obama's racial identity is a notable, widely discussed, reliably sourced, controversial matter. Italiavivi 17:32, 11 March 2007 (UTC)
• Notable, though it does lead to some remarkable circumlocutions, wherein it's not suitable in some circles to refer to a man whose father was African and whose mother is American as African-American. --jpgordon^∇∆∇∆ 18:48, 11 March 2007 (UTC)
• Notable Though I believe this is more of a campaign issue than a personal issue. If it was first brought up in his Senate race, I concede it belongs here. Making this debate balanced will be tricky, because someone saying a man of African descent is not African American is news, while someone saying he is African American is not. Mykll42 19:35, 11 March 2007 (UTC)
• Not Notable I just don't think it should matter personally. It would detract from the article a bit IMO unless it was discussed just masterfully. --Ubiq 02:27, 12 March 2007 (UTC)
• Notable Given that he may become the first black US president. Ogeez 03:27, 12 March 2007 (UTC)
• Notable Played roles in his campaigns. - PoliticalJunkie 20:36, 12 March 2007 (UTC)
• Notable - for obvious historical reasons - Eisenmond 20:58, 12 March 2007 (UTC)
• Notable It would have to be handled carefully as the people bringing this up generally aren't questioning if he's African-American, but if he has had the "African-American experience" and can relate to the trouble African-Americans face in this country. --Bobblehead 21:47, 12 March 2007 (UTC)
• Notable and given due weight (with sources from varied perspectives) in the article's Cultural and political image section. --HailFire 22:54, 12 March 2007 (UTC)

I agree that this would be a good place for it. Would you care to give it a shot yourself, HailFire? Italiavivi 21:31, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

I think the most notable info has already be added by previous edits citing commentators Younge (The Nation), Crouch (New York Daily News), and Page (Houston Chronicle) <click on author's names to see where each is cited and to read their articles>. The reader is presented with sharply contrasting viewpoints ("Black Like Me," "Not Black Like Me," and "...Silly Question") and can decide for him/herself what's controversy and what's just useful, notable information. There's certainly other sources we could add, but I'm not sure they would offer anything new beyond what's already eloquently addressed in these three articles. --HailFire 22:09, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

I should have clicked before I typed—the links to both the Crouch and Page articles are now broken. If they can't be recovered (just tried), we should come up with alternative wording and sources. For starters, there's this and this. --HailFire 22:36, 13 March 2007 (UTC); Also this, possibly this, and certainly this. --HailFire 11:30, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

• Notable But for the fact that he is biracial, not that he isn't descended from slaves.Shakam 16:36, 13 March 2007 (UTC)
• Notable Yeah, it's time for this to be written up. I suggest that Shakam takes the first crack at it. Jiffypopmetaltop 19:41, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

• COMMENT: He has to deal with racism just like any other Black person-- plus Kenya was under British colonial rule (a brutal Racist system) and his ancestors suffered under that system. People who say he isn't African American are really narrow-minded. Is there only one way to be African American? Who here is pretending to 'decide' who gets to be Black and who doesn't? Ridiculous. 128.138.173.224 06:42, 19 March 2007 (UTC) (reinstated this as a comment and moved to bottom of section)

• Notable, but only because people have made it an issue. His not being the so-called "American Black" is not inherently important but people have started talking about it. Also, he's just as African American as the next guy. He also would have to face racism just like anyone else, because his skin color is Black, and Americans are great at making assumptions (I mean come on, don't deny it, we are). Stop Me Now! 01:59, 23 March 2007 (UTC)

Antoin Rezko real estate

In November 2006, Barack Obama acknowledged his participation in a real estate deal to which Antoin "Tony" Rezko, an Obama campaign contributor, was a participant. Under the deal, Obama and Rezko purchased adjoining properties, with Rezko later reselling part of his parcel to Obama. No laws are alleged to have been broken and Obama is not under investigation. Obama acknowledges that the exchange may have appeared improper, and said "I consider this a mistake on my part and I regret it." [6]

• Not notable. No laws broken, no wrong-doing alleged. A minor "appearance of impropriety" at best. Italiavivi 17:32, 11 March 2007 (UTC)
• Not even Caesar's wife. --jpgordon^∇∆∇∆ 18:49, 11 March 2007 (UTC)
• Not notable All of the pertinent information is write there in the description: "No laws are alleged to have been broken and Obama is not under investigation." Mykll42 19:35, 11 March 2007 (UTC)
• Not notable Like previously stated, no wrong-doing or laws broken. --Ubiq 02:28, 12 March 2007 (UTC)
• Notable Obama's close personal and business ties to a man indicted for extortion is notable. The phrase "no laws are alleged to have been broken" is a typical sleezy politician non-denial. Ogeez 03:28, 12 March 2007 (UTC)
• Not notable Nothing wrong's been done. - PoliticalJunkie 20:37, 12 March 2007 (UTC)
• Notable - This article should provide an answer to controversial issues, so as to provide an accurate account of issues, especially those that have the "appearance of impropriety" - Eisenmond 21:02, 12 March 2007 (UTC)
• Not notable An associate got taken down for events not related to Obama. If it were similar to Tom Delay's associates going down, then it'd be notable. --Bobblehead 21:47, 12 March 2007 (UTC)
• Notable because censoring it implies lack of a neutral view. Supporters of Sen. Obama may take comfort that he provided an explanation, i.e. in retrospect, he wouldn't have done it. Actually, this is the reason that I visited the Obama article...to find out what the heck the fuss was about but now I see I have to go elsewhere to find it....that makes wikipedia look bad. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by TL500 (talk • contribs).

• Not Notable, if my understanding is right. All it says is he and another guy bought property and the other guy later sold it back to him. Unless some details were included that were signifigant, I would avoid stuffing it into the article.

George W. Haywood stock investing

Sen. Obama purchased more than $50,000 worth of stock in two speculative companies whose major investors included some of his biggest political donors. Obama said he “did not see any potential conflict in getting advice, in terms of a stockbroker,” from Mr. Haywood. The senator said he told the broker he wanted an “aggressive strategy” for investing, but he did not identify stocks, and has referred to their arrangement as a blind trust. Obama later sold the stocks at a net loss of $13,000.

• Not notable. Blind trust which Sen. Obama liquidated at a net loss. Italiavivi 17:32, 11 March 2007 (UTC)
• The whole damn point of blind trusts is you don't know what's in them. --jpgordon^∇∆∇∆ 18:50, 11 March 2007 (UTC)
• Wait and See As of now, this is just election news. If talk of it persists or escalates, it will be notable. But not until then. Mykll42 19:35, 11 March 2007 (UTC)
• Not notable Not something he was aware of and he had a net loss to avoid conflict of interest when he found out about it. --Ubiq 02:29, 12 March 2007 (UTC)
• Wait and See I agree we should see how this plays out. Ogeez 03:28, 12 March 2007 (UTC)
• Not notable It seems to have died out already. - PoliticalJunkie 20:38, 12 March 2007 (UTC)
• Notable - if it comes back up. Remember, financial responsibility is a major point in the elections - Wait and see - Eisenmond 21:04, 12 March 2007 (UTC)
• Wait and See Too early to tell what affect this might have as far as the "notable" meter goes. During campaigns anything remotely interesting is front page news and this falls under that header right now. --Bobblehead 21:47, 12 March 2007 (UTC)

Criticism of Wal-Mart and Wake Up Wal-Mart support

Sen. Obama is a vocal supporter of Wake Up Wal-Mart. He has criticized Wal-Mart's labor standards, including pay rates and allegedly diminished benefits. [7]

• Not notable. This is a political position, and belongs at Political views of Barack Obama. Editors cannot claim every single contentious political position, such as labor/union views in this case, as a "controversy." Italiavivi 17:32, 11 March 2007 (UTC)
• Not notable Italiavivi nailed it. Mykll42 19:35, 11 March 2007 (UTC)
• Not notable Agreed. Should be in his political views page. Not his biography. --Ubiq 02:31, 12 March 2007 (UTC)
• Not notable Ogeez 03:28, 12 March 2007 (UTC)
• Not notable Belongs at political views page. - PoliticalJunkie 20:38, 12 March 2007 (UTC)
• Not notable Who cares? :) --Bobblehead 21:47, 12 March 2007 (UTC)
• Notable and already in main article's Political advocacy section. A political position, not a controversy. --HailFire 22:47, 12 March 2007 (UTC)

Voting "present" as Illinois state senator

As a state senator, Sen. Obama voted "present" on some bills related to abortion, concealed firearms, and strip club zoning. Obama's campaign has explained that in some cases, the Senator was uncomfortable with only certain parts of a bill, while in other cases, the bills were attempts by Republicans simply to "score points." [8]

• Not notable. Senators are entitled to voting "present," especially when faced with bills that contain poison pills. Italiavivi 17:32, 11 March 2007 (UTC)
• Might be notable; who says it is other than that blog? --jpgordon^∇∆∇∆ 18:52, 11 March 2007 (UTC)
• Not notable I'm still unclear as to how a state senator exercising his right to vote 'present' is notable or a controversy. Mykll42 19:35, 11 March 2007 (UTC)
• Not notable Not a controversy or anything out of the ordinary. --Ubiq 02:34, 12 March 2007 (UTC)
• Not notable Ogeez 03:30, 12 March 2007 (UTC)
• Not notable Not even a reliable source. --Bobblehead 22:07, 12 March 2007 (UTC)
• Notable as note (re anti-abortion opposition to Obama's speaking at Saddleback Church#Global summit) and already noted. --HailFire 22:39, 12 March 2007 (UTC)

Hussein

Due to America's familiarity with Saddam Hussein, some have drawn attention to Sen. Obama's middle name also being Hussein. Polling indicates that many believe Obama's middle name will hurt him in a presidential election [9], and Republican Party supporters have drawn attention to his middle name (referring to Obama in full as "Barack Hussein Obama") on several occasions. [10] Italiavivi 17:32, 11 March 2007 (UTC)

• Notable, despite this being fallacious race-baiting smear at its absolute worst. Right or wrong, his middle name is controversial to Americans, and Republican Party operatives are openly waving his middle name about as a tactic. Decidedly notable, for better or worse. Italiavivi 17:32, 11 March 2007 (UTC)
• Not notable, or at least not a controversy. (How can someone's given name be controversial? What it is is a place where idiots can attack; that's not controversy, though. Minor point of vulnerability.) --jpgordon^∇∆∇∆ 18:53, 11 March 2007 (UTC)
• Not notable We very clearly include his middle name right up there on the top. It's the second word of the article. Any attempt to use his middle name as a campaign issue belongs on the person doing the campaigning first, on his campaign page second. Mykll42 19:35, 11 March 2007 (UTC)
• Not notable for the well-articulated reasons above. 128.103.14.115 01:04, 12 March 2007 (UTC)
• Not notable Hmm, I could see a Silly Anti-Barack Obama tactics being made for things like people using his name against him, heh. But I don't think it belongs in his biography, along with the Fox News madrassah controversy. --Ubiq 02:36, 12 March 2007 (UTC)
• Notable His name is not "controversial," but it is certainly interesting. People want to know what his name indicates about his background and heritage. This is a perfect example where the people trying to protect Obama may be hurting him by suppressing discussion of this issue. Ogeez 03:30, 12 March 2007 (UTC)
• Not notable The first sentence in the article covers it. - PoliticalJunkie 20:39, 12 March 2007 (UTC)
• Notable - again, this is an issue that Americans will want to look into, and the information about the "controversy" of his middle name should be listed so as to provide a more thorough account. If he loses because of name recognition you can guarantee it will be listed, so why not take note of it now - think outside the box. - Eisenmond 21:08, 12 March 2007 (UTC)
• Not notable Especially not in regards to Barack Obama, put it under Stupid Americans. --Bobblehead 22:07, 12 March 2007 (UTC)

• Kinda Sorta Obama does make mention of it in The Audacity of Hope, but that was regarding to his Senate career. Shakam

Obama/Osama

CNN mistakenly used Obama's last name instead of "Osama" in the headline of a report on the hunt for al-Qaeda's leader. [11] Yahoo News mistakenly attached a photograph of Obama to a caption which read "Osama bin Laden and al-Qaida." [12] Both CNN and Yahoo! have issued apologies/explanations. Fox News chief Roger Ailes has deliberately switched Bin Laden's name with Obama's in jokes. [13]

• Not notable. Typographical/technical errors might be warranted on the news outlets' articles, but decidedly not here. Roger Ailes' remark belongs at Fox News alongside a section on the Nevada Democratic Party canceling a Fox-hosted debate due to the "joke." Italiavivi 17:32, 11 March 2007 (UTC)
• Maybe notable in an article about CNN's copy editors or whoever writes the headlines. Roger Ailes' very funny hah hah jokes might have a place as an example of Republican cheap shots, but that's about it. --jpgordon^∇∆∇∆ 18:54, 11 March 2007 (UTC)
• Not notable See above Mykll42 19:35, 11 March 2007 (UTC)
• Not notable While I disagree that they were "mistakes", it would seemingly need to belong only in the respective articles for CNN and Yahoo either way. --Ubiq 02:41, 12 March 2007 (UTC)
• Notable Better to address this than stick our heads in the sand and pretend it's not an issue. This mix-up has happened over and over. Ogeez 03:30, 12 March 2007 (UTC)
• Not notable But does it merit mention at the presidential campaign page? (Someone recently added it there) - PoliticalJunkie 20:41, 12 March 2007 (UTC)
• Notable - Ted Kennedy even made this mistake on the campaign trail, or senate floor, or something... I remember... It keeps happening, and it will stick in people's mind. The issue is very notable - Eisenmond 21:10, 12 March 2007 (UTC)
• Not notable Same as Hussein being his middle name.. Stupid Americans. --Bobblehead 22:07, 12 March 2007 (UTC)
• Not notable i agree, this is being blown out of proportion, is this the only dirt the media can dig up about Obama?--Lerdthenerd 09:56, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

Effort to quit smoking

Sen. Obama is a smoker [14], and is in the middle of a public effort to quit smoking [15]. His effort includes the use of Nicorette, a nicotine replace gum. Michelle Obama agreed to her husband's presidential campaign on the condition that he cease smoking for good, and calls herself "the one who outed" her husband's smoking. [16] Fox News' John Gibson covered Obama's smoking as a "dirty little secret" during a Fox News broadcast. [17] A "Quit Smoking with Obama" effort has been assembled by participants on Obama's campaign site. [18]

• Notable. Michelle Obama's reluctance for her husband to run for president was widely covered prior to his announcement, and that his agreement to quit smoking played a part in assuaging her concerns is decidedly notable. He has been public and open about his effort to quit smoking, despite attempts by political opponents to use it as an attack. Multiple reliable sources, including primary source interviews with himself and his wife specifically on the subject. Italiavivi 17:32, 11 March 2007 (UTC)
• Notable While I agree that smoking in general, even in a politician, is not notable, his campaign staff have made it notable with the "Quit Smoking" group. Mykll42 19:35, 11 March 2007 (UTC)
• Notable to an extent I agree that the Quit Smoking bit is notable, but I think referring to him as a "smoker" is false, especially if he's quit. So we'd have to be careful. --Ubiq 02:48, 12 March 2007 (UTC)
• What's quite fascinating is that there seems to be more concern for his status as a wannabe ex-smoker thn there is for his African ancestry. The times they are a-changing. --jpgordon^∇∆∇∆ 03:12, 12 March 2007 (UTC)
• Notable For reasons described above. Ogeez 03:32, 12 March 2007 (UTC)
• Notable It's playing a role in his campaign, one article I read talked about him chewing Nicorette gum. His effort to stop smoking has become extremely open and public. - PoliticalJunkie 20:41, 12 March 2007 (UTC)
• Notable - With all the current smoking backlash, including states banning smoking in places of business across the country, his smoking habit is a big deal... Remember the Dole campaign in 1996? The cigarette costume guy was everywhere... still a big deal! - Eisenmond 21:13, 12 March 2007 (UTC)
• Notable - But only as a sentence in the 2008 Presidential election section and only in regards to him promising to quit smoking in exchange for his wife letting him run. --Bobblehead 22:07, 12 March 2007 (UTC)

Criticism from Australian Prime Minister John Howard

Shortly after Sen. Obama officially announced his candidacy for president, Australian Prime Minister John Howard unleashed a scathing attack of Obama's stance on the Iraq War. [19] Howard said "I think that would just encourage those who wanted completely to destabilise and destroy Iraq, and create chaos and victory for the terrorists to hang on and hope for (an) Obama victory," and that "If I was running al-Qaeda in Iraq, I would put a circle around March 2008, and pray, as many times as possible, for a victory not only for Obama, but also for the Democrats." Obama brushed aside Howard's criticism, characterizing him as a close personal friend of George W. Bush, and highlighting Australia's comparative troop contribution in Iraq. Howard was harshly criticized by Australian opposition leader Kevin Rudd, Republican U.S. Senator John Cornyn of Texas, and several others in response.

• Notable, including in the main article. This is a highly unusual partisan attack from a foreign head of government. The notability of this is undeniable. Italiavivi 17:32, 11 March 2007 (UTC)
• Notable But briefly. It was big news when it happened but it remained big news for all of a week. We should make sure not to give undue weight. Mykll42 19:35, 11 March 2007 (UTC)
• Notable Agreed that it's pretty notable criticism. But like Mykill42 said, let's keep it brief. --Ubiq 02:50, 12 March 2007 (UTC)
• Notable, as above. --jpgordon^∇∆∇∆ 03:13, 12 March 2007 (UTC)
• Notable Especially given the importance of the Iraq issue. Ogeez 03:32, 12 March 2007 (UTC)
• Notable Also covered at the presidential campaign page. - PoliticalJunkie 20:42, 12 March 2007 (UTC)
• Notable - Eisenmond 21:14, 12 March 2007 (UTC)
• Notable But already mentioned in the campaign article, so doesn't need to be included in this article. --Bobblehead 22:07, 12 March 2007 (UTC)

False "madrassa" report/smear/attack

See Insight Magazine#Madrassa. A false report originating from Washington Times-owned Insight Magazine accuses one of Sen. Obama's elementary schools in Indonesia of being an Islamic seminary (a "wahhabist" "madrassa"), and alleges Sen. Obama to have been a Muslim in the past. [20] The report bears a resemblance to a false email forward that has been in circulation for some time. [21] The report also claims to have received their information from operatives of Sen. Hillary Clinton. The claims against the school itself are debunked by a CNN investigation in Jakarta [22], claims of Sen. Obama having ever been a Muslim are refuted by himself, and Sen. Clinton denies any involvement with Insight Magazine whatsoever. Fox News issued a retraction, warning their reporters to take care with information retrieved from the internet. [23]

• Notable, but must be written in full compliance with WP:BLP and WP:Undue weight. Must note that the report was fully debunked, wholly false, and originated from a right-wing outlet. Only warrants a summary, with full details belonging at Insight, Fox News, or a scandal-specific article. Italiavivi 17:32, 11 March 2007 (UTC)
• Not notable I think reporting this on Obama's page opens up a very frightening situation. Any story could be fabricated, distributed, broadcast, and then merit a mention in an article. The incident is news and, I believe, already has its own article. I recommend linking to it in the Further Reading section and leaving it at that. The same story could have been written about absolutely anyone, it has nothing to do with Obama. Mykll42 19:35, 11 March 2007 (UTC)
• Not notable Not in this article anyway. A link to the article about it might be acceptable though. --Ubiq 02:52, 12 March 2007 (UTC)
• Notable Better to clear the air. Ogeez 03:32, 12 March 2007 (UTC)
• Non notable A link to the madrassa article is all that's necessary. - PoliticalJunkie 20:43, 12 March 2007 (UTC)
• Notable - yes. People have questions about the issue, so it should be noted, with the quote about it as written in his book. - Eisenmond 21:16, 12 March 2007 (UTC)
• Notable It has its own article. However, having said that, it shouldn't be included in this article as its more in relation to poor reporting by Insight than anything Obama did. Maybe a link in the See also section. --Bobblehead 22:07, 12 March 2007 (UTC)
• Notable as note and already noted. --HailFire 22:33, 12 March 2007 (UTC)
• Non notableNot for this page.Jiffypopmetaltop 00:45, 20 March 2007 (UTC)

Mother's ancestors owned slaves

Two of Sen. Obama's ancestors, a great-great-great-great grandfather and great-great-great-great-great-grandmother on his mother's side [24], each owned two slaves.

• Not notable. That's four "greats" and five "greats," for those too lazy to count. Italiavivi 20:55, 11 March 2007 (UTC)
• Not notable Not the slightest bit notable or relevant to him and would likely only be included as an effort to smear him. --Ubiq 02:53, 12 March 2007 (UTC)
• As, somehow a criticism? No. --jpgordon^∇∆∇∆ 03:16, 12 March 2007 (UTC)
• Not notable Ok, I admit this is not significant. Ogeez 03:32, 12 March 2007 (UTC)
• Not notable Not notable. - PoliticalJunkie 20:43, 12 March 2007 (UTC)
• Notable - Seeing as how a great number of our historical leaders are now (noted) as being slave-owners, should it not be fair to mention that his bloodline is tainted as well? (sarcasm intended) - Eisenmond 21:25, 12 March 2007 (UTC)
• Not notable Even if true, his mom seems to have made up for any past transgressions of a distant relative by marrying an African-American and producing a child. --Bobblehead 22:07, 12 March 2007 (UTC)
• Not notable So what? Nearly all African Americans' ancestors owned slaves. Armyrifle 21:35, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

Parking tickets at Harvard

During the exploratory phase of his candidacy, Obama paid off $375 worth of parking tickets and late fees that he incurred during law school at Harvard. [25]

• Not notable. Pardon my brevity, but give me a break. Italiavivi 17:32, 11 March 2007 (UTC)
• Not Notable But fun on the talk page! Mykll42 19:35, 11 March 2007 (UTC)
• Not Notable I don't see this as much of an issue. Who cares?--C.Logan 20:18, 11 March 2007 (UTC)
• Not notable Considering HLS's hefty tuition costs (today at $110,000 for three years), I think Senator Obama's action was rather admirable. 128.103.14.115 01:07, 12 March 2007 (UTC)
• Not notable Funny stuff, but not notable. --Ubiq 02:54, 12 March 2007 (UTC)
• Not notable Silly. Ogeez 03:32, 12 March 2007 (UTC)
• Not notable Trivial matter. - PoliticalJunkie 20:43, 12 March 2007 (UTC)
• Notable - If $375 was not the total cost, but rather a plea deal??? I smell conspiracy theory... any takers :) - ok... Not Notable - Eisenmond 21:27, 12 March 2007 (UTC)
• Not notable Yet again.. Anything remotely interesting regarding a candidate is front page news. --Bobblehead 22:07, 12 March 2007 (UTC)
• unnotable take this to fox news. --– Emperor Walter Humala · ^{( talk? · help! )} 05:23, 13 March 2007 (UTC)
• Notable in the context of things that he's doing to clear his name. (It's only not notable if the incident is isolated. However, Obama has also done other things to clear his name, such as by investing in mutual funds and money market accounts, not individual stocks, after he was accused of buying stocks then proposing funding that would benefit those stocks).71.212.111.238 23:14, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

He was never accused of buying stocks and then proposing fundng that would benefit those stocks. There are no allegations of illegality or ethics violations. Mykll42 23:54, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

removed paragraph

"Senator Obama has taken positive steps to eliminate actions which might be deemed improper. In an agreement with his wife, Obama agreed to stop smoking in exchange for her helping him run.[99] He has said that he will only invest in mutual funds or money market accounts after critics accused him of buying individual stocks which would benefit from government funding that Obama was proposing.[100] Obama also paid 15 parking tickets which were issued to him 17 years ago.[101]"

This is an absurd paragraph and I removed it. Is he stopping smoking because it "might be deemed improper"? Gee, I would have thought it was a health issue. Or maybe an image issue. But not a matter of propriety. And neither of the other two items are notable. Even consensus on your own "survey" here (a method I don't particularly subscribe to because we don't do these things by vote) says they are not notable or we should wait and see. NOne of this belongs in the article. If people insist on including something about his trying to stop smoking - and the importance of this escapes me - then come up with some better wording than that it mught be deemed improper. My opinion, as a long time editor of this article, is that including it gives it undue weight, and I see no need for it at all. There is a whole lot that has been left off of this article, for space reasons, and because you can't include every detail. This is one I'd pass on. Tvoz | talk 09:43, 17 March 2007 (UTC)

I didn't write the paragraph you removed, nor do I approve of its wording, and I don't appreciate you attributing it to me. I'd note that the paragraph includes mentions of the blind trust and parking tickets, which I (along with Talk consensus) opposed here as being notable enough for inclusion. Again, if you don't like surveys, don't participate; they're plenty useful. This is not "voting," Tvoz, this is examining consensus. Italiavivi 20:09, 17 March 2007 (UTC)

Whoa- hold it - where did I attribute it to you? I know you didn't add that paragraph - it was added by an IP address User:71.212.111.238 - and I never suggested that you had anything to do with it. In fact my comment says that the paragraph is not what the survey results revealed, and although I don't like the idea of the survey I didn't do a thing to disrupt it - I didn't participate, but I also didn't comment on it until now. You owe me an apology for that snide edit summary and your accusation above. And by the way - the survey was introduced here without your signature attached to it, other than in the edit summary, for whatever reason you had. When I said "your survey" I actually was talking to all of the participants in it - in fact, I hadn't even noticed who posted the opener. My comment about a survey not being a vote was precisely speaking to the point that we attempt to edit here by discussion and consensus, not majority rule. Tvoz | talk 21:28, 17 March 2007 (UTC)

Then why does your criticism of an anon's insertion belong here, in this survey? You're boycotting all surveys, but your criticism of some anon's shoddy insertion belongs in a sub-section of this one? You've owed me an apology for your repeated snideness ever since you were overruled on calling Cat Stevens Yusuf Islam; I'm not holding my breath, nor should you hold yours, where apologies're concerned. Anyhow, you are correct: Wikipedia happens via consensus. Surveys can be used to reach and re-examine consensus, as this one has, nor does your dislike of the format (or those who wrote the "polling is evil" opinion essay) alter the very valid results. Italiavivi 00:21, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

Italiaviv, I think Tvoz just put it in the wrong header is all. It's all good here. Mykll42 01:08, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

There ya go. Moved the header out so that it's not part of the survey. As far as Tvoz's actions. The quitting smoking is notable because Obama made it notable and a sentence saying he made an agreement of his wife to stop smoking in exchange for her helping him run is hardly undue weight. The Obama's made it notable by including it in every interview they gave in the weeks following his announcement. Now, concentrating it in a paragraph along with the non-notable parking tickets and stock purchases and preceding it with the "might be deemed inappropriate" is a bit much. So getting rid of the paragraph was probably a good thing. Just need to figure some way to work the quitting smoking sentence into the article somewhere.

The only thing evil about "voting" is if all you do is count noses. Going by pure discussion is often more contentious as a vocal minority can often out talk a majority, which is just as evil. That's why you take surveys. Not only is the "agree" or "disagree" important(but to a far lesser degree), you also get the most important thing, why people feel the way they do.--Bobblehead 01:28, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

Just one point here about what is being characterized as the "polling is evil" opinion essay: I personally did not say here or anywhere that I thought polling is evil (nor does that essay say that, actually), nor have I seen anyone say that anywhere. So perhaps the hyperbole could be dialed down a bit. I said I don't like surveys, and I chose not to participate in - or disrupt - this one. I do, however, think it is helpful to re-read WP:NOT from time to time - and regarding this discussion, see WP:NOT#DEMOCRACY in particular. By the way, WP:NOT in its entirety is official policy - not a guideline, not an opinion essay - so I guess we ought to keep it in mind. Tvoz | talk 05:26, 20 March 2007 (UTC)

WP:NOT#DEMOCRACY applies to polling: name counting, head counting, and tilde counting. This survey was in no way a vote, it was a place where individuals may express their opinions in an organized, structured manner. The summary consensus of those opinions is now available for all to see. You are more than welcome to abstain from this survey on principle, but it reeks awfully of just doing so to make a point. You are wrong that no one has cited the "polling is evil" essay in the past on this Talk page, and obviously missed Bbatshell and Edward Lalone (the latter of which went on to disrupt the entire survey on principle) last month. Anyhow, this is not hyperbole, and I don't appreciate your misrepresenting it as such. I know WP:NOT very well, and it doesn't apply in this case (though you're welcome to keep insinuating otherwise all night). Italiavivi 21:51, 20 March 2007 (UTC)

(outdent) Since I was dragged into this (kicking and screaming while on a wikibreak, no less), the above is not a poll. It's structured discussion. A poll looks like this:

Obama's smoking is not notable.

Yes

-- fake user 1

-- fake user 2

No

--fake user 1

--fake user 2

In my example, no discussion is taking place, just a straight up head count. Those types of polls, in the absence of other discussion, are pretty much not permitted on Wikipedia, and not through an essay, but through a pretty clear guideline: WP:!VOTE. I imagine Tvoz originally placed it under that section because the added paragraph incorporated a good portion of the issues discussed there, and not to personally attack your efforts, Italiavivi. Can we put this behind us and keep moving forward on discussing and writing the article at hand? —bbatsell ¿? ✍ 22:09, 20 March 2007 (UTC)

Yes, Bbatsell, thank you - that is why I placed it there, as I have explained above and elsewhere. My reminders of official policy that Wikipedia is not a democracy were prompted by the comment down below by an editor who suggested that his or her "side" "won". And that's why I don't particularly like the survey method, because it can be misconstrued as a vote. But nonetheless, I did not disrupt it. The hyperbole I refer to is using the word "evil", which I didn't, and the WP:VOTE essay doesn't either. And yes, I'd like to move on too. Tvoz | talk 00:46, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

Bbatshell was the one who linked m:Polls are evil in past discussions. There are quite a few Wikipedians who subscribe to that opinion essay, and draw from it opposition to any survey whatsoever. The "evil" wording is in no way my creation. Italiavivi 01:53, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

Non-U.S. views

The article could be improved by adding links to non-American articles and media coverage.172.146.15.93 06:20, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

Do you have any of those readily available? Mykll42 06:46, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

• Anyone want to add some Australian article! —The preceding unsigned comment was added by TL500 (talk • contribs).

Obama is not muslim

This was debunked rather well at snopes.com, at the link below. The opening paragraph of the Wiki page on Obama states that he is the only practicing muslim in the Senate. No where else in the article is it mentioned.

http://www.snopes.com/politics/obama/muslim.asp

Yeah.. It's called vandalism. --Bobblehead 02:09, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

Punahou School

ok, you win. We'll let the sharp reader click the links and figure out that Punahou School is a very expensive and famous school and we'll let the point slip by the dull reader by not commenting on how great the school is. Frankly, I think that is being biased, not neutral, but I'll let it slide. Dereks1x 20:12, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

Trying this description from http://www.punahou.edu/page.cfm?p=11 ("About Punahou", 2nd paragraph) --HailFire 07:45, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

good wording Tvoz | talk 18:04, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

20060926 p092606kh-0093-515h.jpg

{{editprotected}} The caption for 20060926 p092606kh-0093-515h.jpg should read "only Tom Coburn's hair is visible behind Rep. Henry Waxman of California." — Preceding unsigned comment added by Bradywahl (talk • contribs)

 Done John Reaves (talk) 01:52, 19 March 2007 (UTC)

Picture was swapped by HailFire for another one where Coburn is visible, so this is now moot Tvoz | talk 07:19, 19 March 2007 (UTC)

March 17, 2007 edits

Today's edits by one user has seen a deletion to a paragraph with citations in it. Cited material should not be deleted without discussion on a talkpage. Ronbo76 20:23, 17 March 2007 (UTC)

I've had stuff deleted even if there was a citation. There was no discussion about it, just someone deleting it. Therefore, a citation does not prevent deletion. We need to clean up the article and eliminate irrelavent stuff. So what if Obama cosponsored a bill. Senators do that thousands of times during their senate term. What is relevant is if Obama's bill is passed as was the case in the Congo bill. Also relevant is if he has a bill jointly with the GOP, such as with Senator McCain. Also revelant is when he submits a bill about his pet subject, withdrawal in Iraq.

Why is the pastor that married him so important. It just detracts from Obama. Why not list which airlines he's an elite frequent flyer or what brand of tires he uses? Dereks1x 20:35, 17 March 2007 (UTC)

Stuff deleted without a citation does not fly on this article. You need consensus which is why your edits have been reverted. Your deletions are throwing off the POV of this article. If material is properly introduced into an article with citations, deleting it because it "does not seem important" to you becomes opinionated editting. As for mundane info, there are enough editors on this article that if one or more had objected to it, it would have been deleted. Not every piece of minutia will be introduced into an article but some things like who married whom are present in many other articles.

Please also learn how to sign your name on a talkpage. The four tildes occur after your last sentence as here ==>. Ronbo76 20:43, 17 March 2007 (UTC)

This user's continued deletion of material does not meet consensus with me. I will, however, not engage in an edit war. Ronbo76 20:50, 17 March 2007 (UTC)

Consider deleting fluff

For example, "In September 2006, Obama supported a related bill, the Secure Fence Act, authorizing construction of fencing and other security improvements along the United States–Mexico border." under the legislation section. He simply voted on the bill. This is not newsworthy. 80 senators voted for the bill. The bill was not Obama's idea. If he wrote a bill with McCain, that's worthy of wikipedia. If he has a pet issue, such as not fighting in Iraq, that's worthy of mention. If you mention a bill that he voted yes or no, then you should list all the hundreds of bills that he voted on. If one includes the Secure Fence Act trying to fool the reader to thinking that it's Obama's idea, this is fraud. For a neutral viewpoint, I think the sentence should be deleted. If not deleted, there should be a note that Obama was simply voted on the measure, one of hundreds of votes, and that it wasn't his idea.Dereks1x 20:09, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

new section on controversies (neutrally worded)

Shouldn't wiki be neutral and allow neutrally worded descriptions of controversies about Obama. If you don't have this, then wiki is not being neutral but hiding information. North Korea and Iran are countries that hide information from the public and Wikipedia is not a mouthpiece of North Korea. Do you favor neutrally worded mention of controversies in a new section or do you favor censorship like in North Korea? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Dereks1x (talk • contribs) 20:23, 18 March 2007 (UTC).

That's a good question. Let's vote on it. Please vote "Neutral worded" or "North Korea." I'll start.
Neutral worded: I agree that wikipedia should embrace free speech instead of North Korea style censorship.Ogeez 18:05, 23 March 2007 (UTC)

to dereks1x regarding major edits

Dereks1x - I am sure you mean well in your editing of Barack Obama, but there is a problem with the way you are doing it. Some of your edits are not careful, and introduce errors in language and wording; some of them are taking an article that many editors have worked hard to keep NPOV and making it less so. Also the article has been given featured status, and we have recently undergone a review of that featured status, and one of the criteria is stability - that means, once wording has been established for sections that are not current events, for example, editors are supposed to try to keep that wording as it is without making lots of changes. His early life, for example, has been gone over and over and the wording is fair, accurate, and not changing, so there's no need to edit it further beyond an occasional tweak. Also the reference style has been under scrutiny and editors have worked hard to keep it consistent and in compliance with standards. PLease believe me when I tell you that the regular editors on this article are diligent and non-partisan. We're not pushing any agenda, pro or anti the Senator regarding his Presidential ambition. What we want is for there to be a fair article, with a reasonable level of detail but not too much - that's another issue in Featured status - with reliable references, and a consistent style. If anyone has ideas for additions or major changes, we try to discuss them on the Talk page before implementing them. I'm asking you, then, to do that. I'm speaking for myself here - as one editor of the page - and one of the ones who has reverted some of your multiple edits yesterday and today. It's very time consuming to do this over and over - you are today reinstating things that were removed yesterday. Please stop doing that and come over to talk instead and say why you think your changes are needed, and I assure you that fair changes will get a fair hearing. I'm posting this on your user talk page and on Talk:Barack Obama where it can be discussed more. I hope you don't take offense, and I hope you will be a cooperative editor on this highly-visible featured article. Thank you. Tvoz | talk 21:12, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

Ok, didn't know it was a featured articleDereks1x 21:20, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

And also, please don't edit other people's entries on article talk pages. Tvoz | talk 21:36, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

Dereks1x, I removed your addition to the legislation section because it was an uninformative list of non-notable bills that Obama has filed in 2007. The point of this article is not to act as a legislative record for Obama, but to record only the notable legislation that he's a sponsor on. None of those were particularly notable and none of them have even made it out of committee yet. Also, links to Thomas do not work once you close your browser session. They are unique to your browser session and will not work for anyone else that tries to follow those links. Additionally, including the full bill title is not informative as they don't say what the bill actually does. If you want to include Obama's legislative record for this year, find a secondary source that explains what the bills actually mean. --Bobblehead 22:44, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

Concur. Comparing editors to being from a foreign country is the best WP:CIVIL edit summary. Ronbo76 01:28, 19 March 2007 (UTC)

law firm

Obama's former law firm was described in the article as "civil rights law firm". This is biased so it's against wikipedia policy. It's also false. The firm does a whole lot of plaintiff stuff. Originally, I summarized it in one phrase. However, someone edited it out. As a compromise, I placed a link and just refered to it as a law firm.

Before people edited out the description of Punahou School as being well respected. If you're going to edit that out, then you should agree that "civil rights" law firm should also be edited out. There's an even stronger case because Punahou is well respected (no dispute) but it's a lie to say that the firm is primarly a civil rights law firm. Furthermore, wiki editors said people could just click the link to Punahou to see how good it is. The same now goes for the law firm.

The neutral POV is not to lie and mischaracterize the law firm. Either describe it in its entiretly (got edited out) or give a link and just describe it as a law firm. Dereks1x 21:32, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

From the Miner, Barnhill, & Galland website... the "About Us" section. [26]. "The firm has acquired a national reputation in civil rights litigation and neighborhood economic development work." Referring to something as a "civil rights law firm" is not giving it a POV. Calling it the "renowned civil rights firm" would be. Which is why that isn't what we did. Referring to the Punahou School as a private school is not POV, referring to it as "the famous and well respected private Punahou School" is. I hate to not assume good faith, but this appears to be more of a vendetta against us for disagreeing with the Punahou descriptor than a genuine intent to improve the article. Mykll42 22:40, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

• As someone who stumbled on this page, I looked at the law firm's website. It looks like that do a whole lot more than civil rights. They also don't appear to be funded by donations. I suspect that civil rights is a small part of the firm's work. So my two cents are that it would be inaccurate to call it a civil rights law firm unless one wants to paint a false picture (perhaps as a campaign tactic). There's nothing wrong with a law firm doing other kinds of work! —The preceding unsigned comment was added by TL500 (talk • contribs).

I see that this sentence was reworked to be more specific: it now indicates the nature of Obama's work in the firm, rather than characterizing the firm itself, so this complaint is now moot. Not necessary, by the way, to suggest that this was a "campaign tactic" or that anyone "wants to paint a false picture". You might notice that the referenced article refers to the firm as a "civil rights" practice which is likely where the original poster picked that phrase up from. Try assuming good faith, TL500, eh? Tvoz | talk 07:24, 19 March 2007 (UTC)

Rather than a blanket (and somewhat vague and inaccurate) one word characterization of his law practice, more specifics were added. For example, a reference was added to pre-existing text in the article backing up the notion that he did employment cases and some voting issues. Also he continued to work part time after being a state senator, he did not quit as the old wikipedia version implies. Everything is neutrally worded. Someone (Bobbelhead) reverted the change....please don't do this especially because the old version was less specific and less accurate. Dereks1x 18:41, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

You seriously need to learn how to follow links and use the history function, Dereks1x. Tvoz was the one that completely reverted your change.[27] I attempted to incorporate your changes into the article (albeit with bad grammar).[28] I'm not sure why you feel the need to delete that Obama was a civil rights attorney though as the sources you provide clearly say he worked on minority employment cases and minority voting rights. Both of which fall under the big banner of civil rights. --Bobblehead 00:49, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

There's no evidence that he's board certified in civil rights. Attorneys can be board certified in a number of areas. Furthermore, employment cases, his main work, is not necessarily civil rights cases. One can sue for wrongful termination for many reasons. The current wording makes presumptions. It is more accurate to just say what kind of work he did, i.e. employment, voting, rather than a blanket statement of being a civil rights attorney doing employment and voting. That's like saying "GWB is an environmental president who was president during the cleanup of the World Trade Center". The first part of the phrase is opinion, the second is fact. The same goes for Obama's description.Dereks1x 18:55, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

Except there isn't a variety of sources saying Bush is an environmental President like there is saying Obama is a civil rights attorney. I added a source saying he was a civil rights attorney, so can we stop deleting it now? Remember, the threshold for inclusion in Wikipedia is verifiability, not truth. --Bobblehead 01:37, 23 March 2007 (UTC)

• This is extremely DISTURBING that this wikipedia editor is suggesting that it's ok to put false information as long as it's verified (meaning that old lies are ok as long as someone else told the same lie before in print). In a related law firm matter in the Obama article (under the family life part), someone deleted the part that Obama and Mrs. Obama met at Sidley Austin LLP. This law firm is significant in that Mrs. Abe Lincoln was a client, that they are a very big and (disputable) prestigous firm, and they even have a long established wikipedia article. Any desire to add compromise language to include the name? (Bobblehead????)Dereks1x 15:53, 23 March 2007 (UTC)

Bobblehead said nothing of the kind - what Bobblehead said is that the threshhold for inclusion is verifiability, in other words, truth alone is not enough, facts must be verifiable. So stop making accusations. As far as you r question above, no, I don't think the name of the law firm where Obama spent a summer and met his wife is particularly notable - I don't think it matters one way or the other and as you;ve been told, one of the things we try to do is keep the wordcount manageable. The context of that section is family - where they met hardly matters. The rest of the article by definition will grow, so there is no need for excess in these minor details. What we have is accurate, verified, and plenty comprehensive. Of great concern to me also is that you keep reverting the sentences about Miner. The wording I reverted to, which a number of editors have worked on and pretty much come to the same essence, are, again, accurate, verified, and enough detail. Continuing to re-insert the wording you want is not helpful and is disruptive. The sentence about working on law briefs is completely unnotable and unnecessary - that's why several editors have deleted it. So please stop re-inserting your wording unless you find consensus to do so here. Tvoz | talk 18:11, 23 March 2007 (UTC)

• Please do not keep reverting changes about Obama's law firm. The old version had a blanket and potentially misleading statement that he was a civil rights lawyer. His cases were mostly employment cases. The new language has been developed as a compromise by several editors but you, Tvoz, all of sudden changed it back to the old wording. The compromise language had been there for a few days. Even wiki's policy is to revise, not blanket revert it back. What do you have against a neutral and verified description of obama's legal career? Please stop this! Dereks1x 20:11, 23 March 2007 (UTC)

Dereks1x, I don't think there is consensus on your preferred wording, especially the removal of "civil rights". (****I think Derek1x put back in the term "civil rights" to compromise with you and make you happy****) The wording is basically me trying to incorporate your additions in an NPOV manner and attributing the areas where you have concerns. As far as whether or not the wording should be in the article, I don't care. Based on edits, Tvoz and Hailfire appear to favor the removal of your edits. Based on that it seems one in favor of including, two against including, and one neutral. If you'd like, you can create an WP:RFC and present your preferred wording and Tvoz and Hailfire's preferred version and see if a consensus exists for the inclusion of one over the other. --Bobblehead 21:19, 23 March 2007 (UTC)

• Ok, quit fighting. I see there is a dialogue and useful interaction between Bobblehead and Derek1x. That's good. I must say that I disagree with Tvoz as far as her reverting back to the oldest version. To have some description appears to be better than blanket "he was a civil rights lawyer". Without commenting on Tvoz' political beliefs, an ardent supporter of Obama probably likes the blanket "civil rights lawyer" because it portrays a do-gooder but a lawyer who does employment law and some voting issues is less dramatic but more accurate. Furthermore, I see that compromise language incorporating both the "civil rights" term and a more description phrase has been added (and deleted by...let's not name names). Peace man...quit fighting, let's compromise! Let's use NPOV not a oversimplified version.HumanThing 22:59, 23 March 2007 (UTC)

I did not revert to the oldest version or to "he was a civil rights lawyer". I reverted to HailFire's wording from the 21st which seemed to more accurately and succinctly describe this short part of his career. Further, I don't see the consensus that Dereks1x is claiming. I don't know what the point is of the sentence about not participating in any trials and writing law briefs (by the way, that's what non-trial lawyers do, it's quite far from notable). This is far more detail than is needed in this very minor part of the man's career, it seems to me, and I see no attempt to get consensus here for the additions. Finally, I don't know who you are, and you don't know what my political beliefs are, nor do you know who, if anyone, I am an ardent supporter of. So why don't you keep your characterization of this edit to yourself. Tvoz | talk 04:19, 24 March 2007 (UTC)

Calm down, Tvoz!!! User: Human Thing did not call you an Obama supporter or anti-Obama person. See "without commenting on Tvoz' political beliefs...."

Controversies follow-up

My side won several of the votes on Obama controversies. What should we do about this now? We need to write about his smoking, blackness, dispute with Australia PM, and Fox News madrassa expose. Ogeez 00:18, 20 March 2007 (UTC)

What do you mean your "side"? Also, the madrassa one is tied. Jiffypopmetaltop 00:46, 20 March 2007 (UTC)

That's because you voted right before posting this message. Please stop being a WP:Troll.Ogeez 14:03, 20 March 2007 (UTC)

Also it's not a vote. See WP:NOT#DEMOCRACY which is, by the way, official policy, not an opinion essay. Tvoz | talk 05:02, 20 March 2007 (UTC)

I find your use of "my side" highly suspicious, Ogeez. Jiffy wasn't being a troll, so I wouldn't refer to him as that. The madrassah smear job by Fox News has its own article already. The criticism from Australian PM has already been noted. I'm sure the quit smoking with Obama thing will be in there soon, if it's not already. Doesn't look like there's much work left to do. --Ubiq 01:41, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

Censorship of controversies is not being neutral, the hallmark of wikipedia. That's like omiting all mention of Watergate in a Nixon article or Whitewater in a Clinton article. Perhaps there could be a section under controversies near the end and just bullets with a description and a neutral analysis. Dereks1x 02:58, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

Hardly equivalent, and there's no censorship. Tvoz | talk 02:34, 23 March 2007 (UTC)

Father's ethnic group

Is there any good reason we can't link to Luo (Kenya and Tanzania)? Personally, I think that's one of the most interesting articles that someone reading this page could stumble upon.--Pharos 05:43, 20 March 2007 (UTC)

I would support that; can you go pull out your dusty old copy of Dreams from my Father and find the quotation? Use citebook to cite it. --Hojimachong^talk 05:49, 20 March 2007 (UTC)

• What quotation? That his Dad was Luo is all over the book. Page 9 to start with. --jpgordon^∇∆∇∆ 06:48, 20 March 2007 (UTC)

I added this information as a footnote with the wikilink, to avoid the sentence becoming too unwieldy. Tvoz | talk 07:00, 20 March 2007 (UTC)

But why hide the link in a footnote? His father's culture is at least as interesting as the color of his skin, which is quite fully discussed in the main text.--Pharos 16:34, 20 March 2007 (UTC)

Well, I did so in order to keep the text as succinct and specific to the senator himself as possible - probably the same reason the description of his father's home village was shortened. If we're concerned about the length of the piece, we have to do that - but that was just my take on the best way to both incorporate interesting information and also keep the article lean and readable. Maybe someone else will have a better idea - I personally don't think this is crucial either to include or to exclude. Tvoz | talk 01:02, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

I think it'd be good to incorporate it into the article's main text, not in a footnote, somehow. This is part of what Wikipedia's all about, interlinking relevant articles, and the Luo article is very well done. Italiavivi 01:59, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

Trying this. --HailFire 07:15, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

Not surprised that you came up with a way that works - fine with me Tvoz | talk 18:06, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

1984

Should we do a write-up on the "1984" ad produced by the Obama campaign? That must be the awesomest political ad ever. Ogeez 14:06, 20 March 2007 (UTC)

• Last I looked, the Obama campaign says they didn't produce it. Has something changed this morning? Anyway, I think it would fit better at Barack Obama presidential campaign, 2008. --jpgordon^∇∆∇∆ 14:53, 20 March 2007 (UTC)

No, they definitely didn't produce it. It should go in the campaign article, not Obama's biography. —bbatsell ¿? ✍ 15:03, 20 March 2007 (UTC)

If the Obama campaign didn't produce it, and it's just some guy's YouTube piece, I'd say placing it in his article (even his "campaign article") violates Undue Weight. Italiavivi 01:57, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

It's gotten a LOT of coverage in the past 2 weeks. Barack talked about it last night on Larry King. Hillary even responded to it personally today. I think it's notable enough to go in the campaign article. —bbatsell ¿? ✍ 02:58, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

So, does it warrant its own article, then? Or identical mentions at both Obama's and Hillary's articles? Italiavivi 21:33, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

I think it's important to place these things in perspective. I am a reasonably informed person, and first heard of the youtube ad on this talk page a few days ago. And I first saw it mentioned in the media today. At most this probably deserves one line in the campaign article.--Pharos 02:18, 23 March 2007 (UTC)

Is the official trips section useful?

It seems to me that this section is irrelevant with the exception of the African trip and the HIV test. Other senator's wikipedia article do not have a official travel section. This may be because long time senators have made many trips. In the interest of neutrality, the trip section should NOT be there IF the purpose is to falsely convince the reader that the Senator is well travelled and therefore qualified in foreign policy (I must add that I am not saying this is the case). In the interest of fairness to other senator's articles, the official trip section should not be there unless the trip is newsworthy. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Dereks1x (talk • contribs) 03:25, 21 March 2007 (UTC).

Making Obama - The Media Spin of "Mis-information"

Let's get the facts straight about Mr. Obama. He is a Freshman Senator, not a Junior Senator as you have clearly written, with hyper-text, in the first sentence of your facts paragraph. Do not make this man out for more than he is, he has next to zero national political experience yet all you people want is to make him President. Two years and two months, please he hasn't even been in office a full term, nor has he even run a state, let alone the United States. Why is it too, that the media does not talk about his Islamic up-bringing or is that to sensitive. I'm sure the Obamaites will whip-up some sort of spin to keep selling a poor bill of goods, but I wouldn't expect anything less.Chrispb-72 18:45, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

• Um. Every state that does not have a vacancy has a Senior Senator and a Junior Senator. The one who has been there the longest is Senior. The other one is Junior. That's all there is to it. You can be a Jr Senator and have been in the Senate for decades (see, for example, John Kerry and John McCain, both Jr Senators with more than 20 years service); and you can be a Sr Senator and in your very first term (Dianne Feinstein became Senator after a special election to fill a vacancy and took office on Nov. 10, 1992; Barbara Boxer was elected to a full term the same day, but didn't take office until the following January.) As far as his "Islamic up-bringing", well, he didn't have one. --jpgordon^∇∆∇∆ 19:05, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

change in the info box at the top right????

Hey what happened? It used to be bigger! There was a section on occupation, which said "attorney, law instructor" and some other info.

Anyone remember what it said? If it's good, why not replace it?! —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 71.212.111.238 (talk) 19:26, 21 March 2007 (UTC).

His occupation is currently Senator, which is amply covered. Tvoz | talk 02:32, 23 March 2007 (UTC)

Slavery

How come no mention of how the fact his ancestors OWNED slaves could hurt his campaign image? Just an interesting though. Jmlk17 16:57, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

Discussed up here if you'd like to comment. I think the consensus on the issue is clear there, though. —bbatsell ¿? ✍ 17:08, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

Differences between articles

Hi all, first time that i write on a discussion and i'm not so good with english :) The question is: i see that Rudy Giuliani has his {{Future election candidate}} template on the top of the article, why there's no such thing on Obama's? I see that Obama's article is blocked too, why did you choose not to place the template {{protected}}? Not a criticism at all, just to know!-- bs (talk) 18:36, 23 March 2007 (UTC)

Hello Bella - your English is fine! We do have the future election template, but it's in the section specifically about the 2008 presidential campaign, because that is the section expected to change rapidly as events unfold. Most of the rest of the article shouldn't be changing so quickly, so the template on top might be misleading and isn't needed there. There's no rule about where it goes, but when I see them on top for articles like this, I tend to move them down to the appropriate section. As for the semi-protection - the lock on the top indicates semi-protection, and the only users blocked are anonymous IP addresses and brand new user accounts. If you have a named account you';re welcome to edit - the reason is we've had a tremendous amount of vandalism, sometimes vicious, on this article by IP addresses. Not all editors here agree about this, and we've taken it off numerous times, but so far semi-protection has had to be reinstated because the vandalism quickly returns. Many of the major candidates, and many other articles on wikipedia, have similar semi-protection. As for the template - some of the editors here felt that the lock in the corner was sufficient and did not deface the article as much as the big template. It means the same thing, but is less obtrusive. The main purpose of the encyclopedia is to allow readers to get information as easily as possible, so some of us think the less obtrusive lock serves the purpose of protecting the article, but allows readers to read in a less distracted manner. Hope this answers your questions - just my opinion, of course. Welcome. Tvoz | talk 19:08, 23 March 2007 (UTC)

I didn't notice that obama's was just semi-protected (i didn't know enwiki way to flag protected and semi-protected pages, actually). Thank you Tvoz!-- bs (talk) 17:11, 24 March 2007 (UTC)

New info from Wall Street Journal front page

What do you think? From Obama's Past: An Old Classmate, A Surprising Call, Wall Street Journal, Vol. CCXLIX No. 68, March 23, 2007, p.A1

• 1. Keith Kakugawa, his Punahou classmate, is mentioned in "Dreams From My Father". The article has Keith's picture. Called "Ray" in the book.
• 2. describes Punahou School as "exclusive, mostly white Honolulu high school." WSJ article says "The two bonded, Mr. Obama wrote 'due in no small part to the fact that together we made up almost half of Punahou's black high school population' in a student body of about 1,700.
• 3. Kevin called Obama recently and "tensions rose when Mr. Kakugawa asked for some money to be wired via Western Union, according to both him and Ms. Adler. Ms. Adler brought in senior advisor Robert Gibbs, and together, they phoned Mr. Kakugawa last Saturday...the exchange left Mr. Kakugawa upset."
• I think #1 might be relevant for wikipedia, but just a brief mention that Obama was featured in a front page article of the WSJ regarding an old friend who called him for monetary assistance, which was denied. It's front page news. That's news.

I think #2 and #3 are not relevant unless you want to modify the reference to Punahou school being "exclusive". It really it exclusive. That's now verified by the Wall St. Journal and about half a million Hawaiians can vouch for that. It's no surprise because the race to the Prez is tough. You need help like Punahou or Phillips Academy like the Bushs. MLK High in the inner city is not good enough. That's just life.

• Some wikipedia articles have a "trivia" section, particularly the airline articles. Is that good for this article????Dereks1x 20:30, 23 March 2007 (UTC)

I don't think it's that relevant. In Dreams From My Father, Obama used different names to shield the identity of many people, not just Mr. Kakugawa. Also, I'm sure Obama has been asked for favors by many people, an old friend asking for financial assistance is nothing special. - PoliticalJunkie 20:48, 23 March 2007 (UTC)

Besides many presidents went to ordinary schools, or less. Lincoln of course is the most famous example. If if was possible for any kind of school to prepare someone to be president then I think we should invest a lot of money to build more of them, :-) Steve Dufour 02:58, 24 March 2007 (UTC)

I agree with PoliticalJunkie - this happens all the time as someone moves into prominence and is not notable. As for Punahou, it is accurately described now. About a trivia section, no it is not good for this article. If something is notable, we'd include it in an appropriate place. Tvoz | talk 17:35, 24 March 2007 (UTC)