Talk:AllSides

Proposed deletion

Even this acronym proposed this article for deletion on 20:41, October 8, 2023, arguing that "this company fails to meet notability standards and the page appears to be self-promotional. At least one editor has the name of the company in their username." However, this had not been discussed on the Talk page. Their message at the top of the article page has been removed and replaced with the relevant template messages. Please continue the discussion on the proposed deletion in this section of the Talk page. Thanks! Msoul13 (talk) 14:32, 12 October 2023 (UTC)

@Msoul13, it seems to have enough sources to be notable (and is being cited by GPT-4, which may be a whole other conversation) but I've started addressing some of the self-promotional language, trying to fix undue weight issues and being especially clear about where the power and decision-making responsibilities lie and the political affiliation of those parties given the nature of the business. Also, as a source of journalism that is subject to intense debate on the validity as a source within the Wikipedia community, I think it should remain included, no matter how small or imperfect. Superb Owl (talk) 07:00, 13 October 2023 (UTC)

Hi Superb OwlSuperb Owl and @[User:Msoul13|Msoul13]], thank you for your help here. A good portion of the page, including some content that was added today, seems to be sourced directly from the company's website - the last sentence of the lede seems to be a direct quote. I am fairly new to seriously editing, but this seems to be an unreliable source. What would be the appropriate course of action for this content if another source for this information does not exist? Eventhisacronym (talk) 18:23, 23 October 2023 (UTC)

@Eventhisacronym, I agree, it's not the best source to lean on and should be treated skeptically when it seems to be backing-up text that might read a bit promotional or is not concrete.

I noticed @Kwoodworth2 is new to Wikipedia and wanted to welcome everyone who is newish (we all are to some degree) and invite you to discuss your recent edits on the talk page. From what I've read, Joan Blades is only a co-founder of the nonprofit spin-off founded 3 years after the most notable part of the organization (the company that puts out the Media Bias Fact Sheet). The majority shareholder of that company is the founder and CEO John Gable, the other co-founder and CTO owns a non-controlling stake (second most notable person), and somewhere below that is Joan Blades, who describing as co-founder feels like WP:Undue weight and seems like spin from the AllSides website. What we can verify is that John Gable controls the company and runs it on a day-to-day basis as CEO. We don't know who the other minority investors are beyond the CTO, but they would notable to include if we can find that information. Superb Owl (talk) 05:30, 24 October 2023 (UTC)

Hi Superb Owl and Eventhisacronym! I started working for AllSides in January of this year. I disclosed this conflict of interest in my Wikipedia profile. Due to conflict, I limited changes to things that were very incorrect. I recently learned how to request updates in Wikipedia Talks when there is a COI! This is great, and I am happy to use this approach now that I am aware. I will be replying to each item as soon as possible. kwoodworth2 (talk) 06:19, 1 November 2023 (UTC)

Some major changes have been made to this page that did not accurately reflect the ownership and founding history of the company, or the rating methodology.

Joan Blades had been removed entirely, and the page de-emphasizes Scott McDonald as an equal co-founder. Leading with what John did over 30 years ago as the definitive point for the political affiliation of this company is very misleading, especially when similar articles on Wikipedia, like Ad Fontes, Media Bias Fact Check, and NewsGuard, omit the political affiliation of their founders entirely even when that information has been disclosed publicly.

Deseret News incorrectly wrote that AllSides uses Groseclose and Milyo methodology without quotation or citation. This was discovered with these recent Wikipedia updates. A request has been made for a correction. In the meantime, I can provide multiple other sources that accurately describe the methods.

Thanks again for your help on improving this article Superb Owl and Eventhisacronym! I am also tagging @Msoul13 and Animalparty. They have contributed in the past - hopefully they are able to help improve the accuracy, clarity, and neutral voice of this article.

Lastly, thank you for your patience, as this is the first time I am contributing to Wikipedia in this way! Kwoodworth2 (talk) 21:34, 1 November 2023 (UTC)

@Kwoodworth2, thanks for disclosing your COI and sharing some sources below (which I commented on directly). I updated the Deseret News citation to more clearly attribute the disputed content to the author but beyond that haven't seen anything so far that needs a quick fix absent better sourcing. Superb Owl (talk) 05:01, 2 November 2023 (UTC)

Co-founders

Starting this section to discuss who we can verify co-founded the organization and who are the most notable people associated with AllSides so we can give them an appropriate amount of weight in the article.

We know John Gable owns the majority share (google definition of "Primary owner") and has been CEO from the start.

John Gable appears to have gotten the vast majority of press coverage in the articles used as references on this page. 4/4 note Gable as a central figure, with 2/4 referring to Gable as the "founder." 1/4 articles portrays Scott McDonald as a recruit of Gable's. 0/4 mention Joan Blades as a co-founder or even involved beyond the nonprofit spin-off.

This 2012 article mentions John Gable 7 times and refers to him as "founder" not "co-founder" and does not mention Scott McDonald or Joan Blades: https://www.sfgate.com/business/article/AllSides-compiles-varied-political-views-3815821.php)

This 2016 piece in Entrepreneur mentions Gable teaming up with McDonald to start AllSides but does not describe Joan as a co-founder but as someone they teamed-up with later to launch the nonprofit. https://www.entrepreneur.com/leadership/how-this-startup-helps-people-find-common-political-ground/282812

This 2018 piece in SF Chronicle lists Gable as "founder" of AllSides and doesn't mention McDonald or Joan as co-founders: https://www.sfchronicle.com/business/article/Can-lefties-and-right-wingers-find-common-ground-13438467.php

This 2020 CS Monitor article mentions John Gable 3 times but not the other two or use the word "founder": https://www.csmonitor.com/World/2020/0608/Who-should-judge-what-s-true-Tackling-social-media-s-global-impact.

Superb Owl (talk) 06:15, 24 October 2023 (UTC)

Thank you for your thorough outline. I don't have a lot to add; your work aligns with what I was able to find searching yesterday.

Gable and Blades' TEDTalk appears to confirm Gable and Blades did not meet until after AllSides was created:

GABLE: And that's, in fact, why I started AllSides.com -- to create technologies and services to free us from these filter bubbles. The very first thing we did was create technology that identifies bias, so we could show different perspectives side by side to free us from the filter bubbles of news media. And then I met Joan. [...]

BLADES: I went for this wonderful walk with John, where I started learning about the work he was doing to pierce the filter bubble.

https://www.ted.com/talks/joan_blades_and_john_gable_free_yourself_from_your_filter_bubbles/transcript Eventhisacronym (talk) 15:52, 24 October 2023 (UTC)

Thanks for finding and adding that to the discussion. I wanted to note one last thing here, which is company's website seems to be referring to 'co-founders' specifically of the latest corporate entity they created which bought the company in 2023...doesn't change our conclusion as to how to handle this but wanted to note in case of any future discussions. Superb Owl (talk) 04:08, 26 October 2023 (UTC)

The co-founders and board members are John Gable (Republican), Scott McDonald (Independent) and Joan Blades (Democrat).

AllSides Inc. was founded in 2012 by John Gable and Scott McDonald. That company discontinued and its assets were acquired by AllSides LLC in 2016. In June 2023, AllSides LLC became AllSides Technologies, Inc. - a public benefit corporation co-founded by John Gable, Scott McDonald, and Joan Blades.

Sources:

USA Today (2018) https://www.usatoday.com/story/opinion/2017/12/29/come-out-political-closet-2018-focus-shared-values-heal-our-divides-joan-blades-column/985727001/

Entrepreneur Magazine (2016) https://www.entrepreneur.com/leadership/how-this-startup-helps-people-find-common-political-ground/282812

Wikipedia.com | Joan Blades: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joan_Blades

Pepperdine Graziadio Business School (2023): https://bschool.pepperdine.edu/events/most-fundable-companies/2023

Entrepreneur Magazine (2023):

https://www.entrepreneur.com/business-news/pepperdine-graziadio-business-schools-most-fundable/459383

AllSides.com | Ownership Information

https://www.allsides.com/about/ownership

Elaboration on co-founders

John Gable (CEO) is a technology veteran and Silicon Valley manager previously working at Microsoft and Netscape, and worked in Republican politics in the 1980s for Senator Howard Baker, then-Presidential Candidate George Bush and Senator Mitch McConnell.

Scott McDonald (CTO, Independent) is a software developer and technology manager formerly of Check Point Software and BitTorrent.

Joan Blades (Board member, Democrat) is a political activist who co-founded MoveOn.org, Living Room Conversations and AllSides for Schools.

Sources:

Concordia (2023): https://www.concordialive.com/AnnualSummit23/speaker/834716/john-gable

Respect and Rebellion: https://respectandrebellion.com/speakers/joan-john/

The Magazine Of Episcopal High School: Spring 2018 https://issuu.com/episcopalhighschool/docs/259837_ehs_spring_2018_web

Entrepreneur Magazine (2016): https://www.entrepreneur.com/article/282812

USA Today (2017): https://www.usatoday.com/story/opinion/2017/12/29/come-out-political-closet-2018-focus-shared-values-heal-our-divides-joan-blades-column/985727001/

InflectionPointRadio.org: https://www.inflectionpointradio.org/episodes/2016/9/23/joan-blades-john-gable-bringing-civil-conversations-to-schools

San Francisco Chronicle (2012): https://www.sfgate.com/business/article/AllSides-compiles-varied-political-views-3815821.php Kwoodworth2 (talk) 21:48, 1 November 2023 (UTC)

@Kwoodworth2, thank you for clarifying that this was what you meant by co-founders (only as of this 2023 reincorporation). That was really confusing, and honestly feels quite misleading to promote those 3 as co-founders of an organization that looks substantially the same as the one founded in 2012. In addition, I would argue that even if this is something we think is worth mentioning in the article (which I do not) this feels very symbolic with little actual relevance for the power dynamics within the organization, which is controlled by the founder and CEO of 11 years, so I would maybe mention it once but not mention it in the lead or infobox - just in the section with the latest updates. Superb Owl (talk) 05:10, 2 November 2023 (UTC)

Calling John Gable the founder of AllSides is factually and verifiably incorrect, no matter what year we are talking about. The original AllSides organization was co-founded in 2012 by equal partners John Gable and Scott McDonald. Joan Blades has been heavily involved in the direction of AllSides for many years, so it was highly appropriate for Blades to be included in the restructuring of the company. (Calling it symbolic is extremely offensive to Joan in my opinion.) All of this is well documented in the sources I shared. Kwoodworth2 (talk) 17:09, 2 November 2023 (UTC)

Blades is not a founder of AllSides. Her involvement started when the company reorganized years later. Gable effectively owns and controls the company. Everyone else is secondary, including McDonald. Binksternet (talk) 18:09, 2 November 2023 (UTC)

John Gable and Scott McDonald co-founded AllSides Inc in 2012. That company went out of business and sold its assets. Those assets are now owned and operated by AllSides Technologies, Inc, which is a public benefit company co-founded by John Gable, Scott McDonald and Joan Blades, who also serve as the only three members of its Board of Directors. Kwoodworth2 (talk) 19:51, 8 November 2023 (UTC)

Krystal told me the problems y'all are having here on this article, so I thought I would describe in more detail, help sort things out. This is John Gable, one of the co-founders.

The changes added about co-founders was partially but not entirely factually correct, and we want to make sure we don’t state or imply anything that is not accurate or sufficiently referenced. (As an old Netscape person who helped make the code open source - now part of Mozilla - I'm an old super fan of open source and crowd wisdom. I believe in and appreciate honest broker work on stuff like this.)

Scott McDonald is and was an original co-founder of AllSides Inc with Gable. We should not say or imply otherwise.

There are many sources, as well as original incorporation documents, that confirm Scott was a co-founder. Apparently there are some articles (hard to find, we didn’t know they still existed) that inaccurately called John the “founder”, though none that say he was the sole founder. There are many more refer to me or Scott as co-founder. Scott wrote and continues to write the code (or hired and led people that wrote and continue to write the code) that AllSides used and AllSides Technologies Inc uses today. You will see within this Wikipedia article itself Scott’s contributions to it, and his self-identification as a co-founder .

Joan Blades was not a co-founder of the original AllSides Inc. We should not say or imply otherwise.

I appreciate your work to clarify that, but there are important nuances to note to convey the current status of the company accurately, to not say or imply things that otherwise would be false.

AllSides Inc is no longer in business. This is not a technicality, it went out of business - according to the IRS, California Tax Authority, and more - at the end of 2015. It could not pay its bills. Its remaining assets were acquired in April of 2016. AllSides Technologies Inc now owns those assets.

Who are the co-founders of the current organization, AllSides Technologies Inc, which is a Public Benefit Corporation with a separate Board of Directors? AllSides Technologies Inc states that its co-founders are Gable, McDonald and Blades, and that has been published in Entrepreneur Magazine and Pepperdine Business School. There are no credible sourced objections to this fact.

For all the above, there are many public sources that confirm these facts, and if you need more, let us know.

So, how can we convey this history accurately? Let me know what you think of the following:

John Gable and Scott McDonald co-founded AllSides Inc in 2012. That company went out of business and sold its assets. Those assets are now owned and operated by AllSides Technologies, Inc, which is a public benefit company co-founded by John Gable, Scott McDonald and Joan Blades, who also serve as the only three members of its Board of Directors. JohnGable (talk) 18:37, 9 November 2023 (UTC)

Nonprofit spin off

Starting this section to track down what can actually be verified about AllSides for Schools. The current text of the article reads: "In 2015, John Gable, Joan Blades and Scott McDonald co-founded AllSides For Schools, a separate nonprofit project in partnership with the Mediations Foundation. They have partnered with other organizations to provide programs such as Mismatch, a platform to connect students who differ politically and geographically."

The SF Chronicle article cited lists John Gable as a co-founder of Mismatch and AllSides and Joan Blades as a co-founder of Mismatch and Living Room Conversations. It also lists AllSides as a partner organization of Mismatch. https://www.sfchronicle.com/business/article/Can-lefties-and-right-wingers-find-common-ground-13438467.php

The NYT Upfront article cited says that AllSides partnered with Bridge the Divide to create Mismatch. https://upfront.scholastic.com/issues/2019-20/042020/building-bridges.html

Neither independent citation mentions the entity "AllSides for Schools." Neither mentions Scott McDonald at all.

The only other independent source I found was this Education Week article, which says AllSides for Schools produced content as part of as a partnership between AllSides, founded by Gable, and Living Room Conversations, founded by Blades. https://www.edweek.org/teaching-learning/teaching-the-art-of-conversation-during-a-divisive-election-year/2016/09

Currently, I believe the most accurate change based on the available citations would be: "AllSides partnered with Living Room Conversations, a nonprofit founded by Joan Blades, on educational content through a related organization called AllSides for Schools. Gable, Blades, and their associated organizations have produced lesson plans for schools on how to navigate political conversations and helped create Mismatch, a platform to connect students who differ politically and geographically." Eventhisacronym (talk) 21:39, 24 October 2023 (UTC)

@Eventhisacronym, I would support that rewrite, especially since it seems the Mediations Foundation may just be the fiscal sponsor, making it non-essential to include. Superb Owl (talk) 06:10, 25 October 2023 (UTC)

Rating System

Current Wording: AllSides uses a "multi-partisan" methodology first developed by conservative professors Timothy Groseclose and Jeffrey Milyo.

Request Deletion: AllSides does not use the method created/used/proposed by Timothy Groseclose and Jeffrey Mily. Deseret News got this wrong. AllSides only recently discovered this error when it was used here in Wikipedia. AllSides is talking with Deseret News to make a correction. Please note in the article they published, they did not quote AllSides or provide a source for this claim. According to Wikipedia:  To gauge the bias of the mass media, Groseclose develops another measure, the Slant Quotient (S.Q.). This is a number that shows how often a news outlet cites one or more of some 200 think tanks.” This is not the method used by AllSides, as shown in the sources below.

Suggested Correction: AllSides focuses primarily on online publications and rates sources on a scale from -9 (farthest left) to 0 (center) to 9 (farthest right), breaking these into five categories: Left, Leans Left, Center, Leans Right, and Right. Sources are rated by a combination of methods including blind surveys (where participants don’t know the source of the content) taken by thousands of people of different political biases, and editorial reviews by a multi-partisan staff panel. AllSides staff self-report and disclose their political leaning on their website.

AllSides publishes the bias ratings in a public database, and uses these ratings to produce the AllSides Media Bias Chart. The ratings also appear alongside news articles posted to the website, allowing readers to identify the source’s potential bias.

Sources:

Poynter https://www.poynter.org/fact-checking/media-literacy/2021/should-you-trust-media-bias-charts/

Daily Signal: https://www.dailysignal.com/2023/05/04/worse-google-83-news-outlets-bing-homepage-lean-left-zero-lean-right/

The Newsworthy Podcast - Methods described from 3:45 to 4:36: https://www.thenewsworthy.com/shownotes/042322

The Verge (Vox Media) - Methodology described from 7:28 to 8:28:

https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/the-politics-and-laws-changing-tech-in-the-us/id430333725?i=1000585590501

Methodology described from 7:28 to 8:28

https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/the-politics-and-laws-changing-tech-in-the-us/id430333725?i=1000585590501

AllSides Media Bias Methodology Page: https://www.allsides.com/media-bias/media-bias-rating-methods

Kwoodworth2 (talk) 21:52, 1 November 2023 (UTC)

Crowd-sourced changes to ratings called "Community Feedback"

First off, AllSides is under a yellow caution flag on Wikipedia; see WP:RSP. Past discussions have compared it unfavorably to Ad Fontes Media's rating which adds the degree of reliability. AllSides has been called "useless" for ignoring reliability and simply gauging left versus right.

Discussions on Wikipedia have also highlighted the problem of AllSides getting swarmed by online voters to change a rating. I have seen this happen with AllSides assessing The Epoch Times as far right in August 2019,[1] then after they got swarmed by 7,000 Falun Gong supporters, they changed their rating to "lean right" in August 2020.[2]

If a potential Wikipedia source can change their assessment based on crowd-sourcing, then we don't use them. For instance, we don't use audience scores on Rotten Tomatoes as those can be targeted by partisans. Binksternet (talk) 20:29, 3 November 2023 (UTC)

Community feedback is not used to rate sources. This feedback is used to determine when a source may need a new review due to changes in reporting. This information is available in the sources I linked above under "rating system." Kwoodworth2 (talk) 18:32, 6 November 2023 (UTC)

There's no legitimate explanation for AllSides softening their assessment of The Epoch Times in August 2020. The newspaper started spewing COVID disinformation earlier that year, as reported by mainstream media.[3] NBC News said "...by 2020, it became a megaphone for the U.S.’s most extreme right-wing stories." The paper had become even more stridently right-wing, moving farther to the right, in the period leading up to the baffling re-assessment by AllSides. Clearly AllSides has a gigantic problem with community feedback, or they knuckled under to some other kind of pressure. The Epoch Times is quick to sue companies for defamation, for instance, which creates a chilling effect. Binksternet (talk) 19:09, 6 November 2023 (UTC)