Talk:Indo-Pakistani war of 1947–1948

Indian Victory??

The 1947-1948 Indo-Pakistani War is not an official Indian victory. The Indian objective was to repulse the 20 lashkar invasion of Kashmir and reenforce administration in the Gilgit Agency & areas like what is now AJK. Indja failed in this, just as Pakistan failed in securing all of Kashmir. This page recently stated a UN-mandates ceasefire, why change it now? The bias here is obvious. Same with how pages like the Rajasthan Front (Pakistani victory) was deleted. Izaan Iqbal (talk) 13:08, 11 November 2023 (UTC)

Hello @Izaan Iqbal, thank you for using the talk page to air your concern about the changes that have been introduced to the article. My observation here is that critiquing a topic of historical interest is the preserve of scholars. And where they remark in the affirmative that one side had better success at accomplishing the objectives it had set out to accomplish, Wikipedia naturally has to reflect the same. That's how this encyclopedia is written. In this case, reliable sources were furnished and affixed next to the information. So the only challenge to it should come from reliable sources as well. MBlaze Lightning (talk) 15:44, 11 November 2023 (UTC)

Thank you for your response. However, it is a scholarly agreement that the First Kashmir War was a ceasefire, and there was no victor. The Indian government under Prime Minister Nehru, did not push the initiative of declaring Major William General's accession to Pakistan as illegal. The push by those such as Mountbatten & Patel to expel Pakistani forces out of Kashmir did not succeed. Hence, no side was a victor in this war. The Karachi Agreement (1949) enforces such, leaving the choice of Kashmir to a referendum. There has been a recent surge of bias, per-say, favoring Indian perspectives on Indo-Pakistani conflicts. As I stated earlier, the Rajasthan Front article was deleted, the Rann of Kutch conflict was changed from a Pakistani victory to a ceasefire, however Pakistan was in a favorable position by securing the necessary posts to apply pressure on India. But since Harold Wilson negotiated a ceasefire, thus changing the result to a simple "ceasefire", why isn't that logic applied here? Hence, I request the article return to the result being a UN-mandated ceasefire. Izaan Iqbal (talk) 16:18, 11 November 2023 (UTC)

I am a bit concerned by this edit by Capitals00 that changed the result parameter to Indian victory. I would note that it was previously United Nations-mediated ceasefire. The previous entry against the result parameter did not comply with MOS:MIL nor does retaining it as a dot point in the present version. What is written (who won) should reflect the consensus of good quality (academic) independent secondary sources. It should also reflect the body of the article (eg the Aftermath section). It doesn't. There are three sources cited to the result. The third source (K. Shoup) could best be described as a text book and consequently a WP:TERTIARY source. The second source (Jaffrelot) fails verification in that it is not saying that India won. It is detailing the consequences for China if there was an Indian victory in Kashmir. Wayne Ayres Wilcox is reasonably a source we can rely on but one source does not make a consensus among scholars (plural). While I have not attempted a search of sources, it would surprise me if the consensus of academic sources was not so unequivocal as Wilcox and generally more circumspect. Yes, we can add Wilcox to the Aftermath section but we need to poll other sources on this question and present the various views with appropriate weight. I would forecast that the result will be less than conclusive and suggest that the See Aftermath section will be the most appropriate of the permitted responses (per MOS:MIL) to be used in this particular case. The sources cited are not sufficient to claim an Indian victory at this time. In the mean time, I have changed this to See Aftermath section pending further discussion. Cinderella157 (talk) 03:11, 13 November 2023 (UTC)

@Cinderella157: "That war represented a defeat for Pakistan. Hoping to conquer Kashmir, the Pakistani leaders had sent their best troops into battle against the Indian army. Military victory proved beyond the means of the smaller state, though it was by the mid - 1960s a militaristic regime."[1] By cold war historian Daniel R. Brower.

Military expert Praveen Swami has described how Pakistan failed,[2] and it was a "defeat of Pakistan in 1947-1948" war.[3]

"Pakistan lost the war. There was a handful of regular army officers sprinkled among the tribesmen, whose military campaign disintegrated into orgy of looting and plundering." By Kathy Gannon.[4]

"Pakistan lost all three wars, which is a major source of humiliation for Pakistanis. The first war (1947-1948) was fought over Kashmir, a predominately Muslim region that remained in India when India was portioned into two states. The war failed to secure Pakistan's sovereignty over the region as it left the majority of it under India."[5] By Guntram H. Herb and David H. Kaplan.

"Though swiftly crushed, it pointed to the presence of a simmering debate in the army unleashed by Pakistan's military defeat in Kashmir." By Farzana Shaikh, published by Oxford University Press with regards to Rawalpindi conspiracy.[6]

Talat Ahmed agrees with the above source that it "was based on the disaffection of a layer of army officers reeling from their defeat in Kashmir".[7]

Given all these thoroughly reliable sources, I have expanded the aftermath section and will change the infobox to support Indian victory. Capitals00 (talk) 07:56, 13 November 2023 (UTC)

Indian victory?

Note this sub-section was moved here per this edit in order to keep the discussion centralised in one section. Cinderella157 (talk) 03:35, 2 December 2023 (UTC)

I remember the result was never "Indian victory" and it is changed recently by of course the Indians, Pakistan captured nearly 85,000 sq km of Jammu and Kashmir and the result is "Indian victory"? Is this a joke? Wasn't this war inconclusive as neither Pakistan was able to completely capture the state nor India recaptured the entire state of Jammu and Kashmir from Pakistan. 182.181.156.17 (talk) 07:30, 27 November 2023 (UTC)

Who told you India controlled the whole Jammu and Kashmir that it must have "recaptured the entire state of Jammu and Kashmir from Pakistan" in order to win the war? When India entered in the war, a huge portion was already captured by Pakistani tribesmen. Aman Kumar Goel ^(Talk) 07:46, 27 November 2023 (UTC)

The war was conclusive. Jammu and Kashmir ceased to be an independent country. India and Pakistan partitioned the state. -- Toddy1 (talk) 22:05, 1 December 2023 (UTC)

• My previous post was to say that there should be an objective review of the sources regarding the result and that the aftermath section should summarise such a review. The result of this suggestion was to find and cite multiple sources for claiming the result in the infobox to be an Indian victory even though the war was terminated by a UN cease fire. In summary, these would assert the victory because Pakistan had not captured all of K&J. We now have a link to Talk:Indo-Pakistani War of 1965#Result field which discusses not just that war but also the result of this war. It presents several sources that would assert the result here was inconclusive. Only presenting sources that support one particular view is not neutral. From the sources, India's entry into K&J was initially successful against the tribal uprising but, on formal involvement of Pakistan's military it was considered that they could not sustain the previous successes. Consequently, India petitioned the UN to mediate a ceasefire. Pakistan agreed on the basis that a plebiscite was a condition of the ceasefire. Pakistan agreed to several mediated proposals for a plebiscite but these were stonewalled by India. Ultimately, the plebiscite has not been implemented. The fate of K&J has not been resolved between the two countries. It has remained a simmering point of contention between the two countries and a cause of subsequent wars over the territory.

I have been intending to amend the aftermath to reflect this but I have a bit much on my plate at the moment. Anybody else is welcome to take up the task. Looking at the sources, there is clearly more to this than can be reasonably represented as being an Indian victory. With an adequate aftermath section, MOS:MIL would indicate that the result should be see Aftermath. In the mean time, I would suggest that the status quo (ie UN ceasefire) might be best even though it is not supported by MOS:MIL. It is at least, undisputable and supported by the article. Cinderella157 (talk) 10:50, 2 December 2023 (UTC)

A reasonable proposition is that the article should continue to say "UN-Mandated Ceasefire" as per the scholarly consensus but should also reference "See Aftermath" as you proposed to show the dominance one side held over the other. This is better than coming to a highly disputed conclusion that one side had total victory over the other. MrGreen1163 (talk) 16:16, 3 December 2023 (UTC)

Cannot do that. See my comments above. Capitals00 (talk) 05:35, 4 December 2023 (UTC)

No, you can do that, unless you straight up deny the UN-mandated ceasefire. This is an incredibly reasonable proposition as to resolve this due to this debate raging on ever since you edited this page. Last time I checked the scholarly consensus of a widely researched war just doesn't change 75 years later with cherrypicked elements of a minority opinions to for some reason show this as the majority scholarly consensus. My proposition is incredibly reasonable as to resolve this issue and to prevent elements of bias in this article, showcasing all assessments of this war. MrGreen1163 (talk) 23:18, 4 December 2023 (UTC)

"Victory: an act of defeating an enemy or opponent in a battle, game, or other competition." (Oxford Languages)

"Upper hand: have the advantage over someone or something" (Oxford Languages)

There is a clear differential between victory and upper hand. The Indian army did not gain complete victory against the Pakistani army in this war, as evident by their literal failure to secure Gilgit Baltistan and only even having some success on that front by successfully defending Leh. Pakistan also failed to achieve its wanted objectives in areas such as Srinagar and Chamb, but this doesn't warrant an Indian victory. Its evident both sides struggled, and the United Nations mandated a ceasefire before even further escalation in the Spring of 1949 could occur. This is like arguing the War of 1812 was a British victory due to it having the upper hand at the time peace was signed. See MOS:MIL. "Used for all conflicts and combat operations, such as battles, campaigns, and wars. The "result" parameter has often been a source of contention. Particular attention should be given to the advice therein. The infobox does not have the scope to reflect nuances, and should be restricted to "X victory" or "See aftermath" (or similar) where the result was inconclusive or does not otherwise fit with these restrictions. In particular, terms like "Pyrrhic victory" or "decisive victory" are inappropriate for outcomes. It may also be appropriate to omit the "result"." See WP:CONTEXTMATTERS. Utilizing the upper hand in terms of military losses does not warrant a victory for one side. See WP:Cherrypicking. See WP:NPOV. " If different reliable sources make conflicting assertions about a matter, treat these assertions as opinions rather than facts, and do not present them as direct statements.". MOS:MIL mandates you to adhere somewhat to my proposal. This is a highly contentious topic with multiple differing opinions, and the denial of the majority scholarly consensus is appalling. MrGreen1163 (talk) 23:35, 4 December 2023 (UTC)

An official ceasefire should not be translated into "ceasefire" but who had upper hand at the time when the ceasefire was initiated.

Comparison with 1812 war is irrelevant because there was no territorial changed involved in that war between the two main parties (US and UK).

"Victory" is decided by the reliable sources. Do the existing sources support the "victory" parameter in favor of India? They absolutely do. But do you have any sources that describe the outcome as Pakistan's victory? Ratnahastin (talk) 05:28, 19 December 2023 (UTC)

Just because a few sources state Indian side to have an upper hand during conflict does not mean all sources agree for this outcome. Reading the relevant UN-mediated ceasefire agreement would be useful in this regard. Sutyarashi (talk) 11:05, 19 December 2023 (UTC)

We go by what sources say and since there was a coup attempt in Pakistan, after the UN intervention, due to Pakistan's defeat in the war, it would make no sense for you to simply rely on the UN intervention. You can find sources describing how this was not a victory for India because we have reliable sources that described how it was a victory for India. Ratnahastin (talk) 11:15, 19 December 2023 (UTC)

If you mean Rawalpindi conspiracy by the coup, then that's speculation by you, because its reason was not "Pakistani defeat" but the acceptance of UN ceasefire by Pakistani government.

Also, in the infobox the mainstream academic views are included, which is that the war was ended by a ceasefire agreement, not by an Indian victory. Even the article notes this to be the cause of the ending of war. India failed its objective of gaining control of whole Kashmir region as well, and thus there is no reason to change the outcome on the basis of a few sources, as it violates WP:NPOV. Sutyarashi (talk) 11:57, 19 December 2023 (UTC)

That is not my speculation but that is exactly what several scholarly sources stated as discussed above.[8][9] US did not achieve its goal of overthrowing Saddam Hussein in Gulf war but it would never mean that they were not the victor of the war. To say we should ignore these sources only because you are saying otherwise will not happen. Ratnahastin (talk) 12:17, 19 December 2023 (UTC)

The user who edited the article to an Indian victory has agreed with the assessment that the war was solely a UN-mediated ceasefire. MrGreen1163 (talk) 12:28, 19 December 2023 (UTC)

See (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Administrators%27_noticeboard/Incidents#Capitals00) MrGreen1163 (talk) 12:29, 19 December 2023 (UTC)

Your sources provide no preview, no quote neither page. Also, where did I draw parallel with Saddam Hussein? This parallel is not even a good one, as the purpose of First Gulf War was not to overthrow Ba'athist regime but to liberate Kuwait from Iraqi occupation. Sutyarashi (talk) 12:28, 19 December 2023 (UTC)

Per the resolution in the ANI, may you revert the edit to the edit published before Capitals00 on November 10th? The other editor only changed the result not the article content which is not complicit per MOS:INFOBOX. MrGreen1163 (talk) 12:30, 19 December 2023 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 25 November 2023

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

By changing the result to Indian Victory a previous RFC held here is being refuted. To change the result a new RFC should be held, till then the result should be reverted back to this revision as it complies with the aforementioned RFC. 2400:ADC1:477:8500:6865:FDB9:935A:F004 (talk) 09:15, 25 November 2023 (UTC)

 Not done. See discussion above. Aman Kumar Goel ^(Talk) 12:29, 25 November 2023 (UTC)

The discussion above is not an RFC. A change like this needs approval from the community and only RFC can do that. So my point stands. 2400:ADC1:477:8500:E8B8:71B1:C68A:65B4 (talk) 16:18, 25 November 2023 (UTC)

Citing an Indian defense analyst, a few sources in a minority that disagrees with the loud majority that this war was a UN-Mandated ceasefire and had no victor is basic bias. India's failure to repulse the 20 lashkar invasion and undo Major William Brown's accession to Pakistan is not a victory. This war was a stalemate for a reason. The discussion above is not an RFC as previously stated by another user. The edit by the user Capitals00 stating an Indian victory is in violation of ./MOS:MIL. It is expected of you to revert it, otherwise your bias due to nationalistic reasons is obvious. The edit to an Indian victory does not reflect the consensus of good quality, academic, sources. MrGreen1163 (talk) 20:13, 25 November 2023 (UTC)

No RfC happened on this page. No violation of MOS:MIL has happened. Your whole message is misleading just like that. See WP:DE. Aman Kumar Goel ^(Talk) 20:29, 26 November 2023 (UTC)

My Friend Aman you were a part of the said RFC and you know that this RFC was not only for the 1965 war but for both 1965 & 1947-48 Indo-Pakistani War. @Fowler&fowler: Sorry for the ping, you proposed that RFC can you please clear the situation here and tell if that was for the both war pages or not. 2400:ADC1:477:8500:8928:EF41:AB0C:F668 (talk) 09:32, 28 November 2023 (UTC)

I'm not referring an RfC on this page I'm referencing the RfC the user mentioned ./Talk:Indo-Pakistani_War_of_1965#Result_field. MrGreen1163 (talk) 12:25, 1 December 2023 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Indian nationalist revisionism

I have neither the time nor the heart for stooping so low as to acknowledge Indian-nationalist revisionism in this article's lead by opposing it, but you will understand why Wikipedia has become a joke. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 05:26, 4 December 2023 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 5 December 2023

Indian victory is unreliable to add in this page as many sources, people, and simple facts show pakistan as won but the same is for the other side so i request you to instead add it as no clear winner Pajeetspotter (talk) 12:38, 5 December 2023 (UTC)

 Not done: Please state your changes in a clear X to Y format as described by Wikipedia:Edit requests. Sungodtemple (talk • contribs) 12:46, 5 December 2023 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 8 December 2023

Please change "Indian victory" in the result to "UN-mandated ceasefire" and "See aftermath". The topic of the result is highly contentious as evident in the talk page, and the current result was only changed recently and facing mass crticism. The current result fails MOS:MIL and when the user who made the edit was confronted, he simply ignored the message and made a minor edit after the confrontation, making it evident he ignored it. This topic is highly contentious and the citing of a military stalemate with one side having the slight upper hand as a total victory is incorrect and a fallacy, and the updated result has faced massive contention with multiple people criticizing. I request that after "UN-mandated ceasefire" be "See aftermath" to align with MOS:MIL, and show the situation of both parties at the time of the ceasefire. MrGreen1163 (talk) 01:42, 8 December 2023 (UTC)

 Not done As an extended confirmed editor, you do not need to make an ECP edit request. Either make the change yourself or comment in the section "Indian victory" above. --RegentsPark (comment) 03:15, 8 December 2023 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 19 December 2023

Please revert to this revision. The current version aftermath section says the war was an Indian victory. 2400:ADC1:477:8500:3C12:E75F:41C5:83A8 (talk) 08:44, 19 December 2023 (UTC)

 Not done No valid reason has been provided to remove reliably sourced content. Ratnahastin (talk) 10:11, 19 December 2023 (UTC)