Talk:Sun

Unsafe conclusion in Motion and location

Under the subtitle "Motion in the Solar System"

There is an unsupported conclusion with an orphan reference. To wit: "[…] The orbits of the inner planets, including of the Earth, are similarly displaced by the same gravitational forces, so the movement of the Sun has little effect on the relative positions of the Earth and the Sun or on solar irradiance on the Earth as a function of time.[140] […]"

Checking footnote 140 reveals:

Retraction of: Scientific Reports 10.1038/s41598-019-45584-3, published online 24 June 2019 The Editors have retracted this Article. After publication, concerns were raised regarding the interpretation of how the Earth-Sun distance changes over time and that some of the assumptions on which analyses presented in the Article are based are incorrect.The analyses presented in the section entitled “Effects of SIM on a temperature in the terrestrial hemispheres” are based on the assumption that the orbits of the Earth and the Sun about the Solar System barycenter are uncorrelated, so that the Earth-Sun distance changes by an amount comparable to the Sun-barycenter distance. Post-publication peer review has shown that this assumption is inaccurate because the motions of the Earth and the Sun are primarily due to Jupiter and the other giant planets, which accelerate the Earth and the Sun in nearly the same direction, and thereby generate highly-correlated motions in the Earth and Sun. Current ephemeris calculations [1,2] show that the Earth-Sun distance varies over a timescale of a few centuries by substantially less than the amount reported in this article. As a result the Editors no longer have confidence in the conclusions presented. S. I. Zharkov agrees with the retraction. V. V. Zharkova, E. Popova, and S. J. Shepherd disagree with the retraction.

[1] Folkner, W. M., Williams, J. G., Boggs, D. H., Park, R.S. & Kuchynka, P. The Planetary and Lunar Ephemerides DE430 and DE431. "The Interplanetary Network Progress Report", Volume 42–196, February 15, 2014.

[2] JPL Horizons on-line solar system data. https://ssd.jpl.nasa.gov/?horizons

Reference: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7055216/

First sentence

Hi there, I get the argument about "keep it simple", but how about the following, because I find it important to spell things out as much as possible for people who have no clue about astronomy:

"The Sun is a star and the center which Earth and all of the Solar System moves around."

What do you think? Nsae Comp (talk) 01:15, 7 October 2023 (UTC)

It doesnt need to be this sentence, I just see the need to mention Earth right away to put the Sun easily into relation. Nsae Comp (talk) 07:06, 7 October 2023 (UTC)

Earth is already specifically singled-out and adequately mentioned in the first paragraph, no need to repeat it in the first sentence. The Sun's relationship with Earth is understood and described with the existing language in the third sentence. Randy Kryn (talk) 10:49, 7 October 2023 (UTC)

For ease to follow the discussion, here my last proposal that was taken out now. I liked it for being concise.

"The Sun is the star at the center of the Solar System, with Earth as one of its orbiting planets."

... who knows maybe someone else can do something that suits everyone. Nsae Comp (talk) 13:18, 7 October 2023 (UTC)

Getting close. I think we should stick with the opening clause "The Sun is the star at the center of the Solar System", and I think a second clause would be useful, but "with Earth as one of its orbiting planets" is both too specific (singling out Earth) and too vague ("...one of its orbiting planets"). How about "...around which the Earth and other planets orbit"? Obviously there is more than planets, but the original "all of the Solar System" didn't sit well and I can't think of something succinct enough to be in the opening sentence and clear enough to cover everything in the Solar System. After all, the article is about the Sun and cluttering up the opening sentence with details of something else (ie. the Solar System) is a great idea). Perhaps better to relegate that idea to a later sentence that could be more complete, leaving the opening sentence very simply describing the Sun? Lithopsian (talk) 14:19, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

"The Sun is the star at the center of the Solar System" seems enough. 'Solar System' already covers the planets, the moons, the asteroids, comets and other riff raff (wondering if a giant star's planetary system includes periodic comets as big as Earth). Randy Kryn (talk) 22:54, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

...here one more possibility; only because I just thought of this version:

"The Sun is the star at the center of our planetary system." ;) Nsae Comp (talk) 06:25, 12 October 2023 (UTC)

See MOS:OUR, and the Sun anchors the named Solar System, not a planetary system which is a term used for other stars outside of the Solar System. Randy Kryn (talk) 13:18, 12 October 2023 (UTC)

"Sun." listed at Redirects for discussion

The redirect Sun. has been listed at redirects for discussion to determine whether its use and function meets the redirect guidelines. Readers of this page are welcome to comment on this redirect at Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2023 November 6 § Sun. until a consensus is reached. Gonnym (talk) 12:18, 6 November 2023 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 6 December 2023

Lascandovasadar (talk) 09:25, 6 December 2023 (UTC)

Nah≥

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. Liu1126 (talk) 10:03, 6 December 2023 (UTC)

Interesting sun videos

[1] I mean videos like reference 1.

The sun surface changes all the time and this face was only visible on that day. Polymorphismus (talk) 17:19, 29 December 2023 (UTC)

The sun is likely an intelligent organism, but astrobiologists have not yet published something, as far as I know. 2003:E2:473C:31D:8DAC:9260:494:DB54 (talk) 10:15, 31 December 2023 (UTC)

NASA data

User:Randy Kryn, personally I think that this table at Sun#General_characteristics should be removed mainly because it is essentially another infobox but in the body, which increase maintenance cost for future editors; we already have much more precise and comprehensive information in the infobox cited to reliable sources (even for occasional comparison with Earth's statistics). I have a feeling that you want to make the infobox less long by offloading some of the statistics to a dedicated table, and to be honest that's a pretty good idea that we should discuss further here.

In the edit summary you said that "infobox does not preclude the same information appearing in the text, and most infobox information usually appears in the text", but in Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Infoboxes, it is explicitly said that "As with any guideline, there will be exceptions where a piece of key specialised information is difficult to integrate into the body text, but where that information may be placed in the infobox." CactiStaccingCrane (talk) 16:03, 8 January 2024 (UTC)

Hello CactiStaccingCrane. The chart in the text seems a good addition which was added almost six months ago. I didn't focus on the length of the infobox but yes, it does come across as too large. Randy Kryn (talk) 16:12, 8 January 2024 (UTC)

Could you clarify why you think it is a good addition, when we already have the infobox for the same statistics? CactiStaccingCrane (talk) 16:14, 8 January 2024 (UTC)

They are laid out better in the chart for the average reader, making the stats more understandable. Information in an infobox does not preclude it from being included in the text, and entries in infoboxes are usually repeated in the text, in most case within the lead or close to it. Randy Kryn (talk) 16:21, 8 January 2024 (UTC)

I'm with Cacti on this one, I see no good reason for this duplication. Artem.G (talk) 17:03, 8 January 2024 (UTC)

Adding my $0.02 - I don't think that particular table contributes much. A table of physical characteristics is useful, but if it's in the infobox already, we don't need another. Perhaps we could shorten the infobox (which is pretty cramped), and move some of the data into a table. But this particular table, giving comparison with earth sizes, is something I find uninteresting. The fact that it's a direct copy of a NASA document also leaves me uneasy - copyright isn't an issue, but even so, a direct copy is not quite what I'd like to see on Wikipedia. Tarl N. (discuss) 19:40, 8 January 2024 (UTC)

I'd also be in favor of deleting that table. I don't think it adds any essential new content to the page. Also, the table title is "comparison between sun and earth" but it lists a bunch of solar properties that have no earth analog, like spectral type G2V, or luminosity, where it doesn't make sense to have any comparison at all. And some quantities like "visual magnitude" make no sense for Earth without additional context (like what distance you're assuming you are observing the earth from, or that sort of thing). Aldebarium (talk) 20:05, 8 January 2024 (UTC)

Agree with the proposed removal. Nikkimaria (talk) 00:12, 9 January 2024 (UTC)

I am gonna go ahead and remove the table. CactiStaccingCrane (talk) 01:32, 10 January 2024 (UTC)

CactiStaccingCrane, you don't give discussions much time do you? In my experience that's not how it works on Wikipedia, but not going to make a fuss about it since it seems the way this one would probably ('probably', not 'certainly') turn out. Randy Kryn (talk) 04:13, 10 January 2024 (UTC)

Randy Kryn, no, it's not that I want to do things my own way, but because the problem is blindly obvious and you did not give a detailed explanation about your reasoning. You could extend this thread and challenge my actions if you wish, but I am afraid that without a good explanation from your side, it will not be successful. CactiStaccingCrane (talk) 18:16, 13 January 2024 (UTC)

Please read what I wrote. Thanks. Randy Kryn (talk) 00:16, 14 January 2024 (UTC)

Gravity waves

The article mentions "gravitational waves" - this almost certainly is wrong. Gravity waves are hydrodynamic surface waves while gravitational waves relate to general relativity. Turns out words matter. (I saw gravitational waves mentioned here as a cause of coronal temperature, and clearly the effects of GR under that gravitational regime are negligible.)98.21.213.85 (talk) 16:04, 28 January 2024 (UTC)

Addressing Changes to the Lede by XiounuX

I'd like to preface this by acknowledging that @XiounuX seems to be knowledgeable about the topic and acting in good faith. That being said, I believe that the sentence they've inserted into the very first paragraph of the lede ("The Sun behaves dynamically as a magneto-alternator rather than a dynamo") does not belong there.

The sun is of interest to all human beings and the writing of the article needs to reflect that. The first few paragraphs must be accessible, concise, and informative. The sentence in question is both too technical and insufficiently important to warrant inclusion in the lede, much less the first paragraph. As it stands, the article deals with magnetohydrodynamic models of the sun before fundamental questions like "What is the sun made of?", "Where did the sun come from?", and "How long will the sun last?"

As of the time of writing three people (@Aldebarium, @CactiStaccingCrane and myself) have removed this sentence from the lede, and each time @XiounuX has re-inserted it while claiming to have "reverted vandalism". Perhaps the sentence could be moved to the "Magnetic Activity" subsection instead?

-- Marchantiophyta (talk) 00:29, 1 February 2024 (UTC)

No one gets to vote on basic science. Go and vandalize articles from your purview. XiounuX (talk) 01:16, 1 February 2024 (UTC)

That's not helpful. CactiStaccingCrane (talk) 01:20, 1 February 2024 (UTC)

To add to this, the statement "The Sun behaves dynamically as a magneto-alternator rather than a dynamo" (also inserted into Solar dynamo) is a WP:FRINGE theory that does not belong on Wikipedia. It is only supported by a single paper, Omerbashich 2023, whose sole author, Mensur Omerbashich, has been discussed here previously regarding the multitude of other, unrelated fringe theories attributed to them. Additionally, the paper is published in The Journal of Geophysics, which I would consider WP:QUESTIONABLE especially given that Omerbashich is the editor in chief. CoronalMassAffection (talk) 03:07, 1 February 2024 (UTC)

Good to know - astrophysics is far outside my area of expertise, but [Omerbashich's blog] tells me all I need to know about his academic standards. -- Marchantiophyta (talk) 03:39, 1 February 2024 (UTC)

About you celebrating my permanent ban and using it as a justification to remove my edits: indeed, a pretty nervous admin had banned me permanently. But then another admin took a look into that ban, and I am now unbanned. Oh well. Some people just can't help it. So yeah, I am unbanned now. Nothing wrong with these additions to the Sun articles, and you (still) don't get to vote on basic science, so I'm reinstating them. By the way, I also notified Dr. Omerbashich about the above libel by you undergrad kids, and the man is contacting Wikipedia's legal department as we speak. XiounuX (talk) 07:05, 2 February 2024 (UTC)