Talk:Siege of Khan Yunis

Grammar

Article has multiple overlinks of "israeli forces", mistake of prefix The in capital letter, possibly more — Preceding unsigned comment added by 93.138.252.191 (talk) 20:37, 10 December 2023 (UTC)

I have addressed this in my recent edit. Please let me know if I've missed anything. Thanks, SaintPaulOfTarsus (talk) 16:06, 11 December 2023 (UTC)

Disputed map

The map in this article appears to violate WP:IMAGEOR, because it seems to illustrate/introduce unpublished ideas/arguments. Particularly, while the Commons file cites the Institute for the Study of War, the depiction of the areas of operation of the al-Quds Brigades does not appear to have been sourced from there. SaintPaulOfTarsus (talk) 16:05, 11 December 2023 (UTC)

Fixed The Great Mule of Eupatoria (talk) 14:49, 16 December 2023 (UTC)

Update

"Twenty-one Israeli soldiers are killed in an explosion and subsequent building collapse in Khan Yunis, Gaza Strip, making it the deadliest day for the Israel Defense Forces since the ground invasion began. (Sky News)" (As seen on Portal:Current Events)

Certain inside sources claim a Palestinian death toll of at least forty to fifty during the day of the attack, (Al Jazeera) (Haaretz) although it is unclear whether these deaths are linked to the same explosion referred to above, according to my understanding.
— Urro^{[user][talk][edits]} 00:04, 24 January 2024 (UTC)

Old

https://mobile.mako.co.il/news-military/2024_q1/Article-9b0299bbc864d81026.htm?sCh=31750a2610f26110&pId=173113802 2A00:A041:1CE0:0:E139:30F8:BF3:D3FE (talk) 21:06, 26 January 2024 (UTC)

Connected publish: https://twitter.com/avishaigrinzaig/status/1750264426282783020 שמי (2023) (talk) 21:15, 26 January 2024 (UTC)

Completely false claims

The Israeli commanders section of the table claims two tank commanders were killed. The sources are extremely dubious, and nontrustworthy Turkish media, which cite the Israeli army. Yet the Israeli army has never released such a statement, in fact a closer inspection reveals that these two tank commanders are not real people. I'd recommend removing this misinforation, unless literally any credible source can be found. Both Shai Uriel Bezem and Orel Cohen, have these sites show up when searched for, and I can't find those particular names in any Israeli military announcements. The ultimate editorxyzyazz (talk) 11:01, 27 March 2024 (UTC)

Palestinian victory?

What is going on here? Israeli forces withdrew because they pretty much finished the job there and now preparing for entering Rafah. Israeli plan was never no conquer but destroying Hamas forces. 2A02:14F:1FA:4771:E491:4492:5E3:5D12 (talk) 12:38, 7 April 2024 (UTC)

What was the objectives? To eliminate Hamas? Hamas still there and just yesterday ambushed and killed Israeli soldiers, what kind of objective have been met? 2A02:AA1:1646:2B48:60F1:B3FF:FE55:DF7C (talk) 14:36, 7 April 2024 (UTC)

Hamas' battalions in the area have been destroyed and its infrastructure was laid to waste, that some remnants survive doesn't necessarily mean they "won." RM (Be my friend) 14:45, 7 April 2024 (UTC)

At the same time Hamas still exist and is not eliminated so that will not lead to non existent of Hamas, you either fullfil your objective completely or it's not a decisive success either you don't leave a situation directly after a deadly ambush by Hamas and call that "we eliminated Hamas" 2A02:AA1:1646:2B48:60F1:B3FF:FE55:DF7C (talk) 14:50, 7 April 2024 (UTC)

What is the proof that Hamas' battalions have been destroyed though? Genabab (talk) 14:54, 7 April 2024 (UTC)

exactly all I hear is salt from pro Israeli people."Hamas was destroyed in Khan Younis", but they are still there and just yesterday ambushed and killed Israeli soldiers. What is all this excuses coming from? 2A02:AA1:1646:2B48:60F1:B3FF:FE55:DF7C (talk) 15:00, 7 April 2024 (UTC)

In my opinion the battle was one of attrition. By the end of it Hamas fighters are still in Khan Yunis. Rockets even were fired just after the Israeli retreat. Sure Hamas got beat badly but they were still in control of the city and their forces weren't completely destroyed. So I think a "Hamas" or "Palestinian" victory, whatever you wanna call it, fits. Radiourgía Promithéas (talk) 14:49, 7 April 2024 (UTC)

I agree. 2A02:AA1:1646:2B48:60F1:B3FF:FE55:DF7C (talk) 14:58, 7 April 2024 (UTC)

Palestinian victory

It's quite pointless and non-objective. It's Wikipedia, not a propaganda site. Neither of the sides 'won'. The Israelies decided to withdraw their forces for numerous reasons and their hostages are still held captive somewhere in the Gaza strip. Hamas hasn't recuperated, didn't re-gain it's sovereignty and the Hamas's Khan Yunis brigade was pretty much eliminated throughout the last 3 months. Please remove this very un-necessery propaganda. UnsettledEditor (talk) 12:51, 7 April 2024 (UTC)

Every battle has an objective and Hamas just yesterday ambushed and and killed several Israeli soldiers, and officers. If Israel is not on the ground and Hamas still exist they will retake Khan Younis among its population. This will turn out as a pointless ground invasion for IDF. 94.191.153.9 (talk) 14:42, 7 April 2024 (UTC)

Well, let me disagree with you. The IDF had never set its aim at overtaking the Gaza Strip to make it a part of Israel. They were aiming to eliminate Hamas' and PIJ's militants, infrastructures, commanders and command posts. As well as try to rescue as much hostages as they can. Thus, claiming that Israel's withdrawal from Gazan ground means the IDF lost is simply invalid and wrong. In addition keep in mind that this withdrawal doesn't mean the IDF won't return to Khan Younis, it may be temporary and therefore I wouldn't jump to conclusions (especially while their hostages are still in Gaza).

Bottom line: The IDF never expressed anything publicly that suggests they won't return to Khan Younis, and the withdrawal doesn't mean they lost as the IDF never intended to conquer Gaza again. UnsettledEditor (talk) 14:57, 7 April 2024 (UTC)

"The IDF had never set its aim at overtaking the Gaza Strip to make it a part of Israel."

Nobody suggested that

"They were aiming to eliminate Hamas' and PIJ's militants, infrastructures, commanders and command posts"

But the Israeli forces just yesterday was ambushed by Hamas and several Israeli soldiers and officers was killed in Khan Younis. You say to eliminate Hamas, Hamas operates alot underground and that doesn't mean you have defeated Hamas just because you wipe out infrastructures it doesn't mean Hamas have been defeated, Hamas just fired a salvo of rockets from Khan Younis toward Israeli settlements close to the Gaza strip directly after after IDF pulled out from the city. if Israel have to call it a success they should have made sure that any movements by Hamas doesn't exist anymore not leaving a deadly ambush and retreat from the City. For Israel it's about Eliminating Hamas completely, for Hamas it's about making sure that Israeli soldiers Retreat by any means.

Any future Israel ground invasion of Khan Younis could be called "second battle of Khan Younis or (date) siege of Khan Younis". 2A02:AA1:1646:2B48:60F1:B3FF:FE55:DF7C (talk) 15:21, 7 April 2024 (UTC)

This isn't true whatsoever. Netanyahu has consistently refused to entertain the idea of the PA governing any of the Gaza strip after the inevitable end of the war, implying that the Gaza strip will be under Israeli administration. This was well-understood by most officials and diplomats.

https://www.timesofisrael.com/israel-cornering-itself-into-postwar-gaza-military-occupation-western-diplomats-warn/ Yezhi283825 (talk) 15:48, 7 April 2024 (UTC)

Is there a source for Palestinian fighters in Khan Younis not having recuperated? Genabab (talk) 14:45, 7 April 2024 (UTC)

I never wrote Palestinian fighters in Khan Younis, I wrote Hamas. Hamas consists of numerous departments and branches, not all of them are militant. However they all follow the inhumane & violent directive Hamas' leaders openly preach.

There are no actual legit sources that can realisticly and objectively portray what's happening in Khan Younis nowadays, hence personally I don't think your reply will lead somewhere logical and fact-based.

I will add that if you look at the statistics, which are usually the only objective and reliable knowledge source in warzones, you'll see that Hamas and PIJ lost an outrageous amount of weaponry, infrastructure, stashes & caches and manpower. Following the media throughout the last 4 months, you can clearly see the reduction in number of rockets fired per week, the reduction of the rockets radius which implies on using less sophisticated weaponry, less face-to-face fire fights and an increasing number of Palestinian detainees brought to Israeli investigation.

Bottom line: While most likely there are still Palestinian fighters in Khan Younis, Hamas & PIJ will have a very hard time to recuperate due to the extensive destruction and a very significant hit both organizations received by the IDF. Therefore, it'll be foolish to believe that any of these organizations will be able to recuperate within the near time frame. UnsettledEditor (talk) 15:08, 7 April 2024 (UTC)

This is more-so a personal assessment than a professional one, and I disagree with it. There's extensive cooperation between Hamas and other Palestinian militants, and the resumed shelling of Gaza envelope settlements after withdrawal defeats the very purpose the IDF went into Khan Yunis in the first place. That and the IDF's failure to root out much of the tunnels and return the hostages. One genuinely can't see how this was a successful campaign for the IDF. Yezhi283825 (talk) 15:43, 7 April 2024 (UTC)

I agree.

It should be

Israeli forcesvwithdraw from Khan Younis, Hamas remain in control of Khan Younis. 2A02:AA1:1646:2B48:60F1:B3FF:FE55:DF7C (talk) 15:50, 7 April 2024 (UTC)

Another anti Israeli biased article

"Palestinian victory" - claimed by whom? By what factors? In relation to what? Not surprising considering the amount of bias in the English Wikipedia. And locking for edits, cowardice. 85.130.157.245 (talk) 12:55, 7 April 2024 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 7 April 2024

Please remove the phrase 'Palestinian victory' from the outcomes section. It is pointless, full of propaganda and non-objective. There are enough social media platforms to promote Palestinian or Israeli messages on. Thanks in regard. UnsettledEditor (talk) 12:56, 7 April 2024 (UTC)

 Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. '''[[User:CanonNi]]''' (talk|contribs) 12:58, 7 April 2024 (UTC)

False claim of palestinian victory

palestinians didnt win anything, israel withdrew because their goals were met, and are moving to smaller scale raids Kwabat5 (talk) 13:10, 7 April 2024 (UTC)

Agree with kwabat, this is a political claim and isn't grounded in reality. Not encyclopedic. Asafg8 (talk) 13:12, 7 April 2024 (UTC)

What goals were met? Genabab (talk) 15:03, 7 April 2024 (UTC)

"Israeli Victory" It also makes Wikipedia appear like a propaganda site. It's common to attribute victory to the side that was blockaded. example:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siege_of_Leningrad 196.235.53.160 (talk) 15:04, 7 April 2024 (UTC)

Neither Israeli nor Palestinian victory. It's better to call this an "Israeli Withdrawal". Hind242 (talk) 15:09, 7 April 2024 (UTC)

False Claim of Israeli Victory

An apt resultbox would only say "Full Israeli withdrawal" without stating that Israel has won considering Hamas is still active in Khan Younis. Moreover, the source given says: "Israel says it defeated Hamas in a key city" this doesn't count as a trustworthy source according to Wikipedia guidelines. VortexxWW (talk) 15:03, 7 April 2024 (UTC)

It doesn't say that Israel has won. It says: "Israeli withdrawal from southern Gaza". As objective as it can get, which is definitely the way it should be written in Wikipedia. UnsettledEditor (talk) 15:13, 7 April 2024 (UTC)

Result Discussion - RFC

There are several editors in disagreement about how to state the result of the battle. Which option fits best? (Options picked from all previous main-space versions of the result section)

1. Palestinian victory, withdrawal of Israeli forces as in this version
2. Palestinian victory, withdrawal of Israeli forces from southern Gaza as in this version
3. Israeli withdrawal as in this version
4. Israeli withdrawal from southern Gaza as in this version
5. Israeli victory and subsequent withdrawal as in this version
6. Other result not previously used

The Weather Event Writer (Talk Page) 15:13, 7 April 2024 (UTC)

Survey

• Option 5 — On this version of the Wikipedia article the “Israeli victory” was cited by this news article from NPR which stated, “Israel's defense minister said the military has defeated Hamas in the southern city of Khan Younis. The “subsequent withdrawal” was cited by this NBC News article. RS does indicated Hamas was defeated in Khan Yunis & that Israel withdrew from the city after said victory. So, I must choose option 5. The Weather Event Writer (Talk Page) 15:13, 7 April 2024 (UTC)

  which reliable sources say Hamas was defeated? I remind you the IDF did say the same in Gaza a few months ago, and the isw then reported that Hamas had restored its fighng strength, and re-entered land across the North. What is the proof the IDF isn't eaggerating again? Genabab (talk) 15:16, 7 April 2024 (UTC)

  Source was listed. The bearer of proof (WP:ONUS) is now on others to show Hamas wasn’t defeated. The Weather Event Writer (Talk Page) 15:17, 7 April 2024 (UTC)

  In my opinion this article suggests that Hamas was still fighting in Khan Yunis. Such as with ambushes and rocket attacks on Israel and what not. Which suggests to me that Hamas was not defeated. I also consider it a stronger source than the Israeli defense minister as that is a rather weak source. Radiourgía Promithéas (talk) 15:19, 7 April 2024 (UTC)

  There is this source here which does have a paywall. It describes the IDF’s declaration of victory as “premature” and this was before Israeli forces withdrew today

  https://www.wsj.com/world/middle-east/repeated-raids-in-gaza-raise-prospect-of-endless-war-c1f37011 The Great Mule of Eupatoria (talk) 15:31, 7 April 2024 (UTC)

  Option 1 - full withdrawal of the besieging force (Israel). Hamas shows its presence in the area almost immediately, hence a Palestinian victory: [1]https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog_entry/five-rockets-fired-from-khan-younis-at-gaza-border-communities-hours-after-idf-withdraws-ground-troops/ VortexxWW (talk) 15:22, 7 April 2024 (UTC) (Struck per WP:ARBECR and WP:PIA) The Weather Event Writer (Talk Page) 15:38, 7 April 2024 (UTC)

  Cross-border rocket firing might qualify for a Palestinian victory as it implies an Israeli failure to secure the Gaza envelope settlements. If this source is added to the article, Option 1 definitely stands. Yezhi283825 (talk) 15:27, 7 April 2024 (UTC)

  Option One - Hamas is still in the area, was still fighting the IDF before the withdrawal and murdering IDF soldiers. Furthermore, option two to me seems unnecessary. It's about the battle of Khan Yunis, IDF retreating is only relevant to well Khan Yunis. But I see no problem with options one, two, three and four over all and all of them seem generally accurate. Radiourgía Promithéas (talk) 15:23, 7 April 2024 (UTC) (Struck per WP:ARBECR and WP:PIA) The Weather Event Writer (Talk Page) 15:38, 7 April 2024 (UTC)

  RS only says that, it does not confirm a victory. Israel has declared a similar victory in north Gaza by saying they had “dismantled Hamas” yet Hamas was able to still fight in large scale operations such as last month’s Zeitoun. This is the same in khan yunis, and this is emphasised not only by yesterday’s ambush, but also by the immediate shelling of communities adjacent to khan yunis after Israeli forces withdrew The Great Mule of Eupatoria (talk) 15:44, 7 April 2024 (UTC)

I would argue that Option 1 is the most befitting — All the articles cited above suggest that Palestinian militants were still fighting in Khan Yunis, including an ambush in the eastern parts of the city the day before the withdrawal. This does not qualify as a defeat. What exactly is 'victory' is subjective, but the ToI articl citing continued shelling of Gaza envelope would imply Israeli failure to achieve their primary objective and thus qualifies as a defeat in my opinion. Yezhi283825 (talk) 15:24, 7 April 2024 (UTC)

Option 4.

We in Wikipedia cannot determine who won, we ca only cite reliable sources. If enough reliable sources will claim that Israel\Hamas won, we can use it also. But for now, we can only say "Israel withdrawl from southern Gaza".

It is important to emphsize, we cannot determine who won, it is not our job. 147.235.201.116 (talk) 15:34, 7 April 2024 (UTC) (Struck per WP:ARBECR and WP:PIA) The Weather Event Writer (Talk Page) 15:38, 7 April 2024 (UTC)

Option 3 or 4 To declare Israeli victory we would need statement from reliable neutral source, not just Israel claiming so. Borysk5 (talk) 15:46, 7 April 2024 (UTC)

Survey

Option 1 - full withdrawal of the besieging force (Israel). Hamas shows its presence in the area almost immediately, hence a Palestinian victory: [1]https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog_entry/five-rockets-fired-from-khan-younis-at-gaza-border-communities-hours-after-idf-withdraws-ground-troops/ VortexxWW (talk) 15:22, 7 April 2024 (UTC)

Visegrad24

Visegrad24 is not a reliable, credible, or accurate source, it is literally a set of social media accounts run by a singular polish citizen currently resident in the UK. it has been known to post active propaganda and false information; especially on behalf of the Hungarian government. The section dependant on its "reporting" needs to be removed. Alastair Alan Percy Warner (talk) 15:23, 7 April 2024 (UTC)

Do you have a source for this? Visegrád 24 should be discussed at WP:RSN due to the reliability linked (usage by CNBC, Daily Express, Euractiv and The Times of Israel) and misinformation listed in the Wikipedia article. You can open a discussion at WP:RSN to determine its reliability. Until a reliability discussion occurs though, it is presumed to be reliable. The Weather Event Writer (Talk Page) 15:31, 7 April 2024 (UTC)