Talk:Bondi Junction stabbings

Albo Review

Is it necessary to include Anthony Albanese’s X(Twitter) statement? 115.70.87.192 (talk) 09:12, 13 April 2024 (UTC)

He is head of government and surely a mass stabbing doesn't happen everyday in Oz. But better to paraphrase it for WP:QUOTEFARM reasons. Borgenland (talk) 09:13, 13 April 2024 (UTC)

I guess so, after the press conference hopefully we’ll get more answers for this tragedy 115.70.87.192 (talk) 09:16, 13 April 2024 (UTC)

We should include his statement, as it is the subject of significant coverage. The BBC article is a reliable source, and the article accurately summarises what it says, so we don't need to directly cite or quote it. Local Variable (talk) 09:16, 13 April 2024 (UTC)

Yeah just making sure it’s needed or if it should be removed. 115.70.87.192 (talk) 09:17, 13 April 2024 (UTC)

Police officer's gender

There's an edit war brewing about whether to include the gender of the police officer who shot the alleged suspect. Per the essay at WP:GENDER, it is best we do not include it. It is not relevant. There is nothing unusual or out of the ordinary about it. In the words of GENDER, it carries the possible implication that the participation of the subject's gender is uncommon [or] unexpected. The better view is not to include it. We should establish consensus here, to stop the edit warring. Local Variable (talk) 11:13, 13 April 2024 (UTC)

Seconded, putting the gender in there is completely unnecessary, looking back through the last 4 or 5 last massacres in Australia none mentioned the police-person's gender. Creepercast888 (talk) 11:24, 13 April 2024 (UTC)

Agreed. HiLo48 (talk) 11:39, 13 April 2024 (UTC)

It should be excluded at the moment, it may or may not be relevant in the future, but at the moment it isn't. Nil Einne (talk) 11:58, 13 April 2024 (UTC)

Massacre?

I see an editor has restored the category 'Massacres in Australia' to the article. WP:CATVER says: Categorization of articles must be verifiable. It should be clear from verifiable information in the article why it was placed in each of its categories. I don't see any discussion in the article supporting the use of this category, or any of the sources characterising it as such, so I propose re-removing that category. -- DeFacto (talk). 13:37, 13 April 2024 (UTC)

I agree it should be removed. None of the sources refer to it. Local Variable (talk) 13:47, 13 April 2024 (UTC)

This may be a MOS:ENGVAR issue. There are many incidents with the same or smaller impact that are defined as massacres in Australia, including Greenough family massacre, Central Coast massacre and a very similar incident the Strathfield massacre (as examples). If you're coming at this from a different cultural perspective you may be inclined to feel a very normal word here is not applicable, when in our vernacular it is appropriate. It does not make sense to not have these incidents in the same category. -- Rob.au (talk) 15:56, 13 April 2024 (UTC)

I should have added an example article - here is one: [1] - sorry it is paywalled but is headlined "Stabbing at Westfield Bondi: Killer behind massacre known to police" and in the body states the attacker "killed five women and a man in the massacre before he was shot dead by a lone female police officer." Or an alternative non-paywalled source [2] also uses "massacre" in the headline. "Mass murder" is also used by some major sources [3][4][5] - my understanding is that the only difference between the English definition of "mass murder" and "massacre" is that the latter is indiscriminate. The indiscriminate nature is covered by many sources. -- Rob.au (talk) 16:21, 13 April 2024 (UTC)

@Rob.au, thanks for that enlightenment. So to satisfy WP:CATVER we probably need to see it described as a massacre in the article and supported by sources describing it that way. We currently do not have that.

I would say that the word implies more victims than we have here, perhaps into the hundreds, if not thousands. But I bow to your better understanding of the way it's used in Oz.

This then begs the question as to whether we need to move the category Massacres in Australia into a different place in the category tree, and not mix it with categories using a different definition of the term 'massacre'. -- DeFacto (talk). 17:22, 13 April 2024 (UTC)

The articles in the massacre category seem to focus on willed criminal acts by individuals intending to cause mass harm, instead of something like a psychotic rampage. That probably explains why the media is avoiding that term for now. We have no idea what this attack was motivated by, if anything. The category inclusion seems inappropriate for now, but that may change with time. At the moment that category conveniently captures a lot of articles with massacre in the title and I think should be left as is. Local Variable (talk) 19:07, 13 April 2024 (UTC)

death count

I don't think this was the deadliest attack since the January 2017 Melbourne car attack, considering both resulted in the death of six victims. The article in place should be either Cairns child killings or Childers Palace Backpackers Hostel fire; or a rephrase of the head paragraph. Regardless, all these incidents are huge tragedies and I regret to have potentially downplayed any of the crimes committed and persons dead or injured. Josethewikier (talk) 18:26, 13 April 2024 (UTC)

The year was based on sources cited. Borgenland (talk) 18:34, 13 April 2024 (UTC)

Does one include intra family killings? Arson attacks? Arguably the most recent more deadly similar incident is the Port Arthur massacre. See List of massacres in Australia. 18:43, 13 April 2024 (UTC)

Perhaps this is an engvar issue but to me, "deadliest since" clearly includes something that was as deadly. To give a loosely related example, the media and police in NZ often talk about how this is the worst Easter weekend for roads deaths since year X or maybe even deadliest since year X. I'm fairly sure year X might very well have had the same number of deaths. Nil Einne (talk) 19:02, 13 April 2024 (UTC)

Islamophobic addition to article

A hate-mongering moron added this false information to the article: "The Muslim terrorist was seen chanting "Free, free Palestine" waving a Palestinian flag and started shouting "Allahu Akbar" when he was in Westfield shopping centre." I have a screenshot of this. Notwikiusername (talk) 19:23, 13 April 2024 (UTC)

Typical pro israel behaviour. These people have no shame, but that comes with the territory.

"Offended by everything, ashamed of nothing". 2607:FEA8:A4E5:6A00:C057:A3A3:66EE:A4B (talk) 20:15, 13 April 2024 (UTC)