Talk:Greta Gerwig

Key photograph of Great Gerwig

Is there a kind editor who could please switch out the incredibly unflattering due to pregnancy weight gain close up photo of this beautiful actress and instead put at top the 2018 Berlin International Film Festival photograph that is currently at the bottom of the article? A suggested fix: the location of the two photographs could simply be switched. Please! MusaVeneziana^(talk) 11:16, 25 September 2023 (UTC)

Actress, writer, and director

@45.165.160.181, please find support to change the order. The current order follows the example of other actors/writers/filmmakers. Thanks! Nemov (talk) 16:07, 14 August 2022 (UTC)

Given that she is focusing on directing now, it should come first, especially because when you Google Gerwig, it grabs the 'American actress' as the tagline, when it should say 'American director' Leorabk (talk) 11:54, 26 July 2023 (UTC)

She was notable first for being an actor for many years and is still an active actor. The current list is perfectly acceptable. Nemov (talk) 16:19, 30 July 2023 (UTC)

She has received for more awards and recognition as a filmmaker than an actress and her latest film has shattered so many box office records for a female director. I agree that she's more notable as a filmmaker than an actress. JDDJS (talk to me • see what I've done) 15:55, 17 August 2023 (UTC)

Is there a MOS on something like this? I think it reads better as "actress and filmmaker" or "actress, writer, and director." She was a notable actress for a long time before the recent success as a director. I hate to WP:OTHERSTUFF but Eastwood has pretty much been a famous film director now for 30 years. Nemov (talk) 16:06, 17 August 2023 (UTC)

Eastwood has remained extremely active as an actor during that time so it's not at all a similar comparison. JDDJS (talk to me • see what I've done) 16:05, 18 August 2023 (UTC)

Greta just starred in White Noise last November. She's been as active as an actor as Eastwood the past 5 years and way more the past 10 years. Nemov (talk) 17:18, 18 August 2023 (UTC)

White Noise is an indie film directed by her life partner released straight to Netflix, getting no major awards. Barbie is continuing to smash box office records for a film directed by a woman. Ladybird is one of the extremely few films directed by a woman to get nominated for a Best Directing Oscar. To pretend that her acting career is anywhere near as notable or gets as much media attention as her career as a filmmaker is simply untrue. JDDJS (talk to me • see what I've done) 18:12, 18 August 2023 (UTC)

I haven't said she was more notable for acting? The order is pretty much a matter of preference unless there's a MOS. I'm just following other examples and I think it reads easier.Nemov (talk) 18:43, 18 August 2023 (UTC)

• FWIW I've posed this question at Actors and Filmmakers to see if there's any MOS with the order of occupation. Nemov (talk) 02:48, 20 August 2023 (UTC)

  There doesn't appear to be a MOS for this, but one comment was that it should generally be in the order of occupation. That seems reasonable to me and fits the status quo. Nemov (talk) 13:16, 29 August 2023 (UTC)

Let me add support for rephrasing this. Gerwig is much more a director that also acts, than "an actor and director" - that phrasing implies some level of equality that just isn't there in the 2020s. She's one of Hollywood's top directors but only a dime-a-dozen actor. CapnZapp (talk) 06:44, 31 May 2024 (UTC)

I don't get the implication and following order of occupation has worked fine throughout the project. Nemov (talk) 11:41, 31 May 2024 (UTC)

Sorry but "has worked fine throughout the project" is a non-argument that advocates for "no change" without actually arguing for it. Bringing up "the project" is a great way to make people think change is hopeless: "do I really need to turn the entire project around?". But that is not so: just because "actor, writer, director" is fine at some other article does not necessarily mean we must have it too.

Now, this talk section clearly exists because editors have a different opinion than "it's working fine". Because editors want to emphasize how the article subject is viewed as a director first and foremost, and actor only as a secondary characterization. Editors like me want to rephrase to distinguish Gerwig from actors who also direct, but remain primarily known as actors. Do you have a constructive proposal that could achieve consensus in both groups? CapnZapp (talk) 07:34, 2 June 2024 (UTC)

Here's one idea. Let's look at the Wikipedia entries for people on this IMDB list. John Cassavetes is presented as a "filmmaker and actor", which I could see working for Gerwig as well (point is, actor not first or foremost). Vittorio De Sica was a "director and actor." On the other hand, Julie Delpy is (correctly in my mind) presented as actress before screenwriter. And so on... as you go through the list you realize all permutations of "actor", "director", "writer" are equally acceptable on Wikipedia. (Gerwig isn't on the list btw.) CapnZapp (talk) 07:34, 2 June 2024 (UTC)

I've created a RFC on this topic. Thanks! Nemov (talk) 20:59, 2 June 2024 (UTC)

Infobox image

I restored the 2018 image. We should wait for a image in a few weeks before making this change. Thanks! Nemov (talk) 14:01, 1 August 2023 (UTC)

What do you mean by "normal appearance"? We aren't here to judge what body type she should be in the future. The 2023 image is a high-quality recent image and in my opinion, she looks great in it! Krimuk2.0 (talk) 10:46, 7 August 2023 (UTC)

It's just not a good picture. I get they are promoting Barbie so it's bright colors, but the status quo image is just better and doesn't have a distracting background. I agree she looks great. Nemov (talk) 13:07, 7 August 2023 (UTC)

The same image exists in the article body. Please be more careful before reverting. Krimuk2.0 (talk) 14:40, 7 August 2023 (UTC)

Sorry, another image had been replaced. I restored it. Thanks! Nemov (talk) 14:59, 7 August 2023 (UTC)

Wiki Education assignment: Analyzing Cinema, Gender and Sexuality

This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 6 September 2023 and 22 December 2023. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): Caroline. kk (article contribs). Peer reviewers: Almondmilk2.

— Assignment last updated by GreenBruchert8 (talk) 04:07, 17 December 2023 (UTC)

Order of occupation in the lead

Should the order of occupation in the lead be changed from American actress, writer, and director to American director, writer, and actress?

Review the previous discussion here. Nemov (talk) 20:50, 2 June 2024 (UTC)

Survey

• Oppose When I asked the project about this question there didn't appear to be a specific guideline on this question. However, presenting this in order of occupation makes sense. Gerwig was a notable actress for many years before directing. She still continues to act, write, and direct. I don't think the order implies her impact in any of the three fields, but simply order of occupation for her career. Nemov (talk) 20:58, 2 June 2024 (UTC)
• Support. She's more notable for directing at this point in her career. It makes sense to reorder the first sentence to reflect that. ––FormalDude (talk) 09:57, 3 June 2024 (UTC) (Summoned by bot)
  •  Note: I made this !vote before discovering the lengthy history of this dispute. My !vote above still stands, but I do not think this needed an RfC, as I explained in the discussion section below. ––FormalDude (talk) 06:35, 5 June 2024 (UTC)
• OpposeMildly. I really don't think it matters and it's fine as it is. I do think creating an RfC at this point seems overkill. Lukewarmbeer (talk) 10:32, 3 June 2024 (UTC)
• This should not be a RfC. If Nemov just took a step back and let others edit the page for a while, perhaps the world wouldn't end, and we could move on. I feel taking this step is an attempt to redirect away from "this is just a small but natural change" and make it something big and formal, perhaps hoping to defeat the effort on purely procedural grounds. Including the very real possibility this ends with a "no consensus" that can then be misinterpreted as actual support for the status quo. Not interested. CapnZapp (talk) 19:08, 4 June 2024 (UTC)
• Support She may have been primarily known as an actress a few years ago, but that's no longer true. Both her writing and her directing are now more notable. HouseOfChange (talk) 07:03, 5 June 2024 (UTC)
• Support. Her significance as a director outstrips her acting. Innisfree987 (talk) 07:32, 5 June 2024 (UTC)
• Oppose non-obvious ordering in favor of an alphabetical ordering since she is notable for all of these occupations. I would also suggest refining the occupations, like "film director" instead of just "director" (which is vague), and "screenwriter" instead of just "writer" (which is also vague). So that can be ordered actor, film director, and screenwriter. Keeping it alphabetical eliminates any future shuffling. Erik (talk | contrib) ^{(ping me)} 20:06, 13 June 2024 (UTC)

Plenty of articles have non-alphabetical ordering and seem to do just fine. Nobody has claimed she isn't notable for any of the listed occupations; your comment conveniently forgets what the arguments for this discussion revolves around. I have nothing against your suggested occupation title improvements; though this discussion is specifically about the order they are presented in. CapnZapp (talk) 13:41, 14 June 2024 (UTC)

A non-organic order should be verifiable by their due weight if it is not obvious to passerby readers who may or may not switch it around. (I find the claim that such articles "do just fine" to be vague.) There are numerous actors who also direct, and I don't know how universal (or not universal) it is to switch the order based on editors' POV assumptions of which credit is more prevalent at that point in time. I am arguing to sidestep that nitty-gritty and just order alphabetically. Erik (talk | contrib) ^{(ping me)} 14:57, 14 June 2024 (UTC)

Discussion

• Did this really need a RfC? It's a minor change that doesn't impact the meaning of the sentence, and in the discussion leading up to this I see three editors in favor, one mildly against. Feels like there's already a rough consensus and this RfC may be a bit of a waste of time. ––FormalDude (talk) 09:57, 3 June 2024 (UTC)
  • Now I see the length of time that the previous discussion occurred over. After looking into this more, @Nemov, I'm concerned about potential WP:OWN and/or WP:STATUSQUOSTONEWALL issues, especially given edits like this where you're adding a note that implies a consensus that does not exist, followed by rigorous defense of it (1, 2, 3, 4 and more). Numerous editors making essentially the same change to an article, plus the ones supporting it on the talk page, gives us a pretty clear consensus. ––FormalDude (talk) 11:27, 3 June 2024 (UTC)

    Thanks for taking time to comment. In light of there being no policy on this issue and the number of times that section has changed this seemed like a sensible way to get a stronger consensus. Nemov (talk) 12:06, 3 June 2024 (UTC)

    It's been changed so many times because you revert everyone who's tried to change it for at least the past two years, despite no consensus or policy to do so. ––FormalDude (talk) 19:20, 3 June 2024 (UTC)

• Pinging participants of the previous discussion: @Leorabk, JDDJS, and CapnZapp. ––FormalDude (talk) 11:27, 3 June 2024 (UTC)

  Thanks. CapnZapp (talk) 19:10, 4 June 2024 (UTC)

• I see nothing at WP:LEAD or MOS:BIO to cover the order of occupations. Does anyone know of any guidance to follow? I feel like each occupation has plenty of weight behind it. (Do we need to consider "producer" as well?) Why not just order the occupations alphabetically, if there is substantial contribution with each occupation? I alphabetically order names and titles in article bodies often to keep it simple. Keeping it alphabetical would keep relativity out of it, like whether to consider her starting out primarily as an actress, and being known more "now" as a director and writer (which could change later). Remember that whatever non-alphabetical order we go with, passerby editors are bound to change it up later for the aforementioned reasons. Erik (talk | contrib) ^{(ping me)} 12:54, 3 June 2024 (UTC)

  I watch a few different biographies including filmmakers. Clint Eastwood is a good example where producer came up a few months ago, but there are others where the occupation order changes quite a bit. Given there's no guidance is usually comes down to local consensus, but perhaps it would be better to create some guidance? I could workshop it WP:VPI. Nemov (talk) 13:16, 3 June 2024 (UTC)

  Clint Eastwood is actually not a good example because he's very clearly a (very) prominent actor as well as a (very) prominent director. You have been told this already [1]; please stop bringing up Eastwood as a relevant example, Nemov. How about you accepting that local consensus is the best way to handle minor issues like this? Please stop trying to make this a policy issue or shoehorn this article into some inflexible set of rules; please instead allow consensus to form for this article only. CapnZapp (talk) 07:31, 5 June 2024 (UTC)

  @Erik brought up the question of "producer" and I was responding in good faith to their comment. You are not the arbiter of what I can and can't bring up. You don't decide what I consider a minor or major issue. You don't get to officiate my comments. This RFC will end one way or the other and I'll be fine with it. However, I have noticed that occupations is something that changes a lot on other similar articles. Nemov (talk) 12:07, 5 June 2024 (UTC)

With a week since the last edit, I would like to ask you Nemov to consider self-closing this RfD and allow the edit to pass. CapnZapp (talk) 10:22, 12 June 2024 (UTC)

Nemov has responded (see [2]) so I suggest we end the RfC here if no other opinions are forthcoming. As an involved editor, I'd prefer to let an uninvolved editor close & summarize, even though this is not a strict requirement for RfCs. CapnZapp (talk) 10:16, 14 June 2024 (UTC)

Such a strange comment after what I wrote on my TALK. I said let the RFC play out. RFCs take 30 days. There was a comment yesterday. I don't understand your rush, especially after I said I wouldn't use a no consensus close to stonewall that change (which you have accused me of in your comment above). This RFC was created in good faith. My edits on this article are of article watcher's variety. I watch hundreds of them. I'm not the only one who has been making edits on this topic.[3][4] Finding a consensus on this would be better in the long run. Perhaps if you let this RFC run its course, the world wouldn't end. Nemov (talk) 11:58, 14 June 2024 (UTC)

The notion that RfCs "take" 30 days is false. Please read WP:RFCCLOSE, which states "An RfC should last until enough comment has been received that consensus is reached, or until it is apparent that it won't be," and specifically encourages editors not to wait for 30 days, which is only a date when a bot will auto-end the RfC. Thank you CapnZapp (talk) 13:38, 14 June 2024 (UTC)

I'm quite familiar with RFC policy and it seems we have different opinions about what exactly An RfC should last until enough comment has been received that consensus is reached means. I have attempted to discuss this with you in good faith, but your comments appear adversarial in tone. Discussing it with you further doesn't seem productive. Thanks! Nemov (talk) 13:57, 14 June 2024 (UTC)

• I've removed the RFC tags since it's been well over a week since the last comment. While no consensus was found, CapnZapp please feel free to make the change I won't object. Thanks! Nemov (talk) 15:07, 23 June 2024 (UTC)

  Thanks. To avoid possible drama I will hold off to see if an uninvolved wikipedian will edit before I do. Also to give everybody time to digest Nemov's response first. CapnZapp (talk) 16:27, 23 June 2024 (UTC)