Talk:2021 Canadian church burnings

Scope of this event and number of incidents.

The citation for the first sentence of this article, "A series of vandalizations, church arsons, and suspicious fires in June and July 2021 desecrated, damaged, or destroyed 68 Christian churches in Canada." now leads to a 404 error on the True North website.

I gave the title of the original cited article a web search, "A Map of Every Church Burnt or Vandalized Since the Residential School Announcments", to see if it had just been moved and it appears that article was updated with additional occurrences. The title is now "UPDATE: A map of the 83 churches that have been vandalized or burned since the residential schools announcement"

I was scanning through the article and it caught my eye that at least some of the occurrences are from 2023. The title of this wiki article is "2021 Canadian church burnings" and the date in the info box is given as "21 June – 8 July 2021"

Also, while virtually all the occurrences in the True North article properly cite news articles and web pages, a good portion of the linked articles don't reference any connection to the "probable discovery of over 1,000 unmarked graves at Canadian Indian residential school sites." that is mentioned in the wiki article.

I went through every occurrence of "arsoned or burned" and "vandalized" listed on the updated True North article and this is what I found:

10 of the 35 listed "arsoned or burned" occurrences linked to articles that did not mention any connection to the probable discovery of unmarked graves.

18 of the 35 listed "arsoned or burned" occurrences did not occur between 21 June – 8 July 2021.

12 of the 48 listed "vandalism" occurrences linked to articles that did not mention any connection to the probable discovery of unmarked graves.

26 of the 48 listed "vandalism" occurrences did not occur between 21 June – 8 July 2021.

1 of the listed "vandalism" occurrences was an altercation with no vandalism.

1 of the listed "arsoned or burned" occurrences is from April 4, 2021, before the reports emerged in May 2021 of probable the unmarked graves.

1 of the listed "vandalism" occurrences is from April 18, 2021, before the reports emerged in May 2021 of probable the unmarked graves.

I was going to just update the link for the citation and update the number of occurrences, but it doesn't appear that the number is correct, based both on the nature of the events included and the timeframe of the events.

So my question is, what would a reasonable timeframe for events related to this article be? 21 June – 8 July 2021 seems too short as there are events that occurred later into July and earlier into June that are related, even some into August and Sept.

For that matter, should a definitive number even be listed, if the article cited for that number includes 22 occurrences that are not related.

Perhaps there should be a table added that lists each of the occurrences?

I will await others input before I make any edits.

Bussche (talk) 18:26, 21 August 2023 (UTC)

@Bussche: Thank you for your interest in improving the page. If possible, I would encourage you to seek sourcing that comes from an entity other than True North, as they are a partisan political outlet. English Wikipedia doesn't appear to have a standard for dealing with True North as a source, but right-wing political news outlets have a habit of being deprecated as sources (I think their coverage here is reliable, but others might think differently). In order to ensure any improvements you make survive longterm, sourcing from more mainstream news outlets (like the CBC) or government publications/announcements helps. Thank you! ~ Pbritti (talk) 19:25, 21 August 2023 (UTC)

@Bussche Thank you for going through the sources in such detail! The article as it currently stands mentions fires "of all causes", and I'm curious if the number listed is counting confirmed natural causes under "all", eg the June 30, 2021 wildfire that damaged hundreds of buildings in Lytton BC including a church. That fire falls under the time frame, but it would obviously be misleading to count that fire in this article without explicit clarification. Elfangor9 (talk) 18:53, 10 September 2023 (UTC)

@Elfangor9 and Bussche: I asked the same question and apparently it is "bizarre" to think that "stuff burns all the time in BC". By the way I volunteered to help refugees from the Lytton fire and followed it very closely. That fire was started by a train.[1][2][3]That is general knowledge but might be hard to source. The people who saw the train on fire were scattered. But apparently Lytton is confident that the fire started at the tracks[4][5] not at the church. But that is just what several people from Lytton told me; I do not have a source. But the investivation[6] did not attempt to contact any residents either[7] And yes, that fire was right in that period 15:20, 24 June 2024 (UTC)

the United States is not in Canada

The section specifically says there are ties to increased vandalism in Portland. Npthing about those fires is Canadian. If you want to write about them start another article or rename this one Elinruby (talk) 15:11, 24 June 2024 (UTC)

Per COMMONNAME, the relatively few fires in the US that were tied to the Canadian fires can easily fall under this broader heading. There is no basis for removing that information (which reliable sources tied to the Canadian incidents), and continued coverage since 2021 has focused largely on the Canadian incidents. ~ Pbritti (talk) 15:19, 24 June 2024 (UTC)

post your evidence Elinruby (talk) 15:32, 24 June 2024 (UTC)

Well, the Catholic News Agency is an RS, and the National Catholic Reporter (which follows standard editorial practices and is wholly independent from the church) also covered the subject. ~ Pbritti (talk) 15:56, 24 June 2024 (UTC)

Does anybody say they are RS besides you? Elinruby (talk) 16:16, 24 June 2024 (UTC)

Does anybody but you say that there is any link at all between the fire in Portland and what happened in Kamloops? Elinruby (talk) 16:24, 24 June 2024 (UTC)

Is there any evidence at all that anyone in Portland can find Kamloops on a map even? Elinruby (talk) 16:19, 24 June 2024 (UTC)

What's with the BATTLEGROUND? Please stick to the content. ~ Pbritti (talk) 17:07, 24 June 2024 (UTC)

Those are serious questions about content. I would like an answer to them. YOU wanted to discuss. Elinruby (talk) 17:28, 24 June 2024 (UTC)

Per the most recent discussion at RSN, there are serious concerns about the Catholic News Agency. I also generally wouldn't trust anything from a .org unless there's broad support for it at RSN. If we're to report that vandalism of U.S. churches is connected to vandalism of Canadian churches, I think we'll need reliable, secondary, independent sources. Woodroar (talk) 16:40, 24 June 2024 (UTC)

You're referencing a discussion that only came to a conclusion about a different subsidiary of the same organization. CNA follows editorial standards, Catholic Culture did not. ~ Pbritti (talk) 17:04, 24 June 2024 (UTC)

The discussion touched on CNA as well. Their About page reads like an advocacy organization, which makes sense as they're "A service of EWTN News". As I mentioned above, I would like to see independent and unquestionably reliable sources make this connection. Woodroar (talk) 17:24, 24 June 2024 (UTC)

Independence is not a requirement for a source to be reliable. In fact, very few if any sources are independent. The Washington Post for example endorsed Joe Biden in the 2020 U.S, presidential election. Do you think they should be removed from the list of rs sources? TFD (talk) 23:26, 6 July 2024 (UTC)

I'm sorry, TFD, but that sounds like a rather bad faith reading of my comments. We're talking about a religious advocacy organization reporting on controversial events involving their religion. They're not the Post. I mean, if the WaPo were the official paper of the Democratic Party and reporting on controversial issues related to Biden, then yes, I'd argue that we wait for WP:INDEPENDENT sources to cite. Woodroar (talk) 23:56, 6 July 2024 (UTC)

I could not find a retraction or editorial policy at 'National Catholic Reporter Elinruby (talk) 17:28, 24 June 2024 (UTC)

I have restored this content. The reality is that there were at least two incidents of vandalism against Catholic churches in the US elicited coverage in reliable sources. These two incidents were tied to the Canadian church fires and the resurgence of interest in the Indigenous gravesites. The removal of other material, like the non-RS publications, are good things. But these are documented incidents of spillover, so they merit inclusion. Discussion elsewhere seems to agree. ~ Pbritti (talk) 20:33, 27 June 2024 (UTC)

Why is this being re-added?

Canada is not the United States, and the topic is "2021 Canadian church burnings" not "2021 North American church burnings". Similarly, stating there is a "connection" would be relevant if the article were "2021 responses to the discovery of unmarked gravesites at former residential schools" and not "2021 Canadian church burnings". I will be removing these as they are irrelevant to the topic, which is again, 2021 Canadian church burnings. Lostsandwich (talk) 23:07, 27 June 2024 (UTC)

The article's scope has, for three years, been the spate of destructive actions targeting Christian churches following the (re)discovery of Indigenous graves. The name of the article does not change that. There's good reason for that scope: Indigenous North American people, the traumas of colonialism, and the Catholic Church are all not limited by national borders. As such, while most incidents were arsons in Canada, a few well-attested events outside of Canada are also relevant. ~ Pbritti (talk) 00:28, 28 June 2024 (UTC)

The article's scope has, for three years, been the spate of destructive actions targeting Christian churches following the (re)discovery of Indigenous graves.

The article is titled "2021 Canadian church burnings", and as one would guess, it is about church burnings in Canada in 2021. It is not an article about "churches being burned across North America for X reason". You are welcome to create a new article on that subject if you feel it is appropriate.

There's good reason for that scope: Indigenous North American people, the traumas of colonialism, and the Catholic Church are all not limited by national borders.

Then by all means, make an article which does not specifically mention national borders.

As such, while most incidents were arsons in Canada, a few well-attested events outside of Canada are also relevant

As the article is "2021 Canadian church burnings" then activities taking place outside of Canada are not. More importantly, we can use the very basic wikipedia guideline of asking "does this improve the article?" To which the answer is most certainly not. An act of vandalism 1,500km in another country- especially when the linked material states that the "motive is unclear" and several others are listed as the result of vandalism tied to *covid 19*.

If there were some real indication of a significant level of say... copycat crimes, or crimes committed in "solidarity" then that might warrant inclusion. Some "anti-colonial" vandalism in another country does not. Lostsandwich (talk) 00:49, 28 June 2024 (UTC)

You have repeatedly suggested new names. Perhaps a consensus solution could be found through a move discussion? ~ Pbritti (talk) 01:30, 28 June 2024 (UTC)

I am not opposed to a move discussion. Elinruby (talk) 02:24, 28 June 2024 (UTC)

I think we need something that establishes the scope as pertaining to 2021 incidents of vandalism (not necessarily arson, but we could specify that) at churches in response to the Indigenous gravesites. If anyone has a name that they think fulfills that or wants to alter those parameters, I'm game to hear input. ~ Pbritti (talk) 03:51, 28 June 2024 (UTC)

I have noticed but not yet addressed the inclusion of red handprints in this list. I would like to see some evidence that this is in fact notable, or that there is a tie between any given fire and the graves in Kamloops. I think that is SYNTH. Cited synth but nonetheless synth. Otherwise we might as well title the article "unsupported speculation about 2021 fires in Canada" Elinruby (talk) 07:22, 28 June 2024 (UTC)

Which event are you discussing? ~ Pbritti (talk) 11:59, 28 June 2024 (UTC)

according to my gadget, you wrote this article Elinruby (talk) 20:55, 28 June 2024 (UTC)

Yes, I wrote major portions of it, but which content does this comment pertain to? I'm not seeing reference to red handprints in the article. ~ Pbritti (talk) 22:49, 28 June 2024 (UTC)

Given the widespread RS coverage at the time most churches burned reported the fires in connection to the (re)discovery of graves (eg NYT, 2021) and the recent independent investigation by the CBC, I don't believe SYNTH is at play. I would appreciate clarification on your position regarding an important element of this article: do you believe that there were a series of fires and defacing at churches in North America during 2021 that occurred in response to renewed interest in the Indigenous school gravesites? ~ Pbritti (talk) 23:12, 28 June 2024 (UTC)

But none of them actually present the stuff in the US in this context unless I'm missing something... That would be SYNTH. I would also note that this page is about church burnings in Canada... Not defacements anywhere or church burnings in any other country. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 22:04, 6 July 2024 (UTC)

Perhaps you missed the cited CNA article about the Denver vandalism, which clearly states that "The incident follows several weeks of Catholic churches in Canada being vandalized or discovered on fire", further directly relating that incident to the other acts of arson and vandalism in Canada. Not sure how you are claiming SYNTH when it's explicitly in the sources. ~ Pbritti (talk) 23:14, 6 July 2024 (UTC)

The criterion for inclusion should be whether connections have been made in rs. This article should report opinions, not evaluate them. Some editors seem to be confusing the presentations of opinions and analysis reported in reliable sources with original research by editors. TFD (talk) 23:33, 6 July 2024 (UTC)

Article now at Neutral Point of View noticeboard

courtesy notice Elinruby (talk) 15:33, 24 June 2024 (UTC)

RSN is not a first step. You also are edit-warring to enforce your BOLD changes. I recommend slowing down. ~ Pbritti (talk) 15:44, 24 June 2024 (UTC)

• This has been copiously discussed at Canadian Indian residential school gravesites already
• I question whether the Catholic Standard is a BESTSOURCE for this material
• Portland is still not in Canada
• These fires were probably not set by Canadians
• I need you to explain to me in what way that fire in Portland is "Canadian"

WP:ONUS is on you Elinruby (talk) 16:09, 24 June 2024 (UTC)

PS I am also not edit-warring. Please look up the definition of that, and strike your untrue aspersions above. Correct the noticeboard while you are at it. Elinruby (talk) 16:13, 24 June 2024 (UTC)

No, that's edit warring. 3RR is a limit, not an absolute. ~ Pbritti (talk) 17:06, 24 June 2024 (UTC)

Feel free to report my two reverts at the edit warring noticeboard and let me know how that turns out. Tellng you you are wrong is not edit warring. Nor is it a personal attack, btw. Do you want to discuss the article or not? Elinruby (talk)

It's been two hours since you complained I wasn't discussing whether Portland is Canadian, and I don't see a rationale. I think I has given enough of my attention for now to the proposition that a fire in Portland is "Canadian". Let's see what other people say. I will check back in later, I have stuff to do. Elinruby (talk) 17:43, 24 June 2024 (UTC)

crickets Elinruby (talk) 22:46, 25 June 2024 (UTC)

I have a day job. I'll respond once I have some time and the patience. ~ Pbritti (talk) 00:45, 26 June 2024 (UTC)

That's fine. I promise not to report you to ANI for refusal to discuss. By the way your Catholic source says that people lit a puddle of gasoline on fire, not that there was a fire at the church. What is with all the Catholic sources, btw? Elinruby (talk) 00:57, 26 June 2024 (UTC)

The concern with CNA is unfounded, as their reporting is regularly picked up by other RSs like the NYT (eg CNA breaking the priests with invalid baptisms story a couple years back) and almost all editors either immediately accepting CNA as an RS or eventually conceding to considering it one in the last RSN discussion. Diocesan Catholic newspapers have to be treated with a little more caution (and any speculation they perform should be attributed when included), but generally are of a higher caliber than your typical college newspaper or local small town paper. ~ Pbritti (talk) 02:18, 26 June 2024 (UTC)

We should probably see what RSN says Elinruby (talk) 14:44, 26 June 2024 (UTC)

The overwhelming number of individual sections and RSN discussions is going to reduce our ability to address these concerns. In the future, please consider consolidating concerns and bulleting or numbering them. Obviously, too late now, so we can wait on the RSNs (though I don't think more than a couple of them are going to prove definitive on the sources). Recent conversation indicates Western Standard should be deprecated on this subject, so at least there'll be that consensus. ~ Pbritti (talk) 16:21, 26 June 2024 (UTC)

I tried grouping them at RSN. Got feedback saying that that was confusing and convoluted and they couldn't figure out what was going on. And that was at WikiProject Canada, where there's a presumption that people know that graves were found. Elinruby (talk) 22:11, 26 June 2024 (UTC)

This can partially be explained by your use of discussion boards and WikiProjects as what amounts to a first step. In this situation, you first posted to RSN fewer than 15 minutes after opening discussion here. Most issues should be first hashed out in a discussion on an article talk page. Persistent problems, unresolved disputes, and project-wide concerns are the purview of things like RSN. ~ Pbritti (talk) 22:21, 26 June 2024 (UTC)

Given your proclivity for perceiving and reporting content discussion as personal attacks [8] I think it is uderstandable that I think that the more eyes on this the better. Especially since you seem to think (above) that reverting you is a breach of policy. Elinruby (talk) 02:45, 28 June 2024 (UTC)

The Pillar

Getting a 404 error on this source Elinruby (talk) 17:01, 24 June 2024 (UTC)

Western Standard as a source for Canadian residential schools

there is a thread at RSN with the above title. Last I look I looked the consensus was LOL. Therefore removing, but here is the text in case another source can be found Another Catholic church in Peace River suffered minor damage on July 3; the RCMP confirmed the cause was arson.

References

Elinruby (talk) 17:09, 24 June 2024 (UTC))

Aleteia

Never heard of it. Need someone to explain to me how it is RS. The link does not work in my browser, but that may be my browser. Elinruby (talk) 17:23, 24 June 2024 (UTC)

See Aleteia

Their site says Aleteia (aleteia.org) is an online publication distributed in five languages (English, French, Spanish, Polish and Slovenian). അദ്വൈതൻ (talk) 16:44, 25 June 2024 (UTC)

A .org domain and the publisher is the "Foundation for Evangelization through the Media". Someone really needs to demonstrate how this is reliable before we should be using it. Woodroar (talk) 21:50, 25 June 2024 (UTC)

Now at RSN Elinruby (talk) 09:54, 26 June 2024 (UTC)

Three year old tweet

Is this DUE? Elinruby (talk) 17:30, 24 June 2024 (UTC)

Georgia Strait

Is this RS for this topic? Elinruby (talk) 17:35, 24 June 2024 (UTC)

I can't find this in the article right now. Possibly gone. In any event, it was the source for the Coptic church, which is really out of scope anyway. Elinruby (talk) 09:51, 26 June 2024 (UTC)

The statement in the body about the Coptic church, for which this was a reference, was removed by someone. It was still being used as a reference in an image caption for the idea that these fires where retaliation for Kamloops, which it manifestly does not support, since the Coptic church is the fire that was started by a woman who was mad at her boyfriend. Elinruby (talk) 03:33, 28 June 2024 (UTC)

to be clear I removed the reference in the image caption, and since the source is no longer used in the article, it is no longer of any particular urgency to debate the reliability of this Vancouver alternative publication. Elinruby (talk) 03:35, 28 June 2024 (UTC)

True North

I have started a discussion at RSN about using this source at this article. Elinruby (talk) 17:55, 24 June 2024 (UTC

Someone has removed it from the article saying that it is never a reliable source. Elinruby (talk) 09:53, 26 June 2024 (UTC)

Synth

Why does this article include the Coptic Church burned down by a mentally ill woman? Elinruby (talk) 20:44, 24 June 2024 (UTC)

Agreed, the section itself states it is not connected. I don't see why it should be included. The article is about some spate of specifically targeted arson events, driven by some specific motive. It isn't an article about "every church burned down during this time frame". Whether it was a copycat event, inspired by the perception of other churches being burned down etc might be logical to deduce, but that would constitute original research and/or synthesis. I will remove it Lostsandwich (talk) 21:12, 24 June 2024 (UTC)

I am uncertain that the targeting even existed. It is possible but as the article says, speculation. At from three years out with no followup. If when the article is updated somebody has been found guilty and they did it because of the graves in Kamloops, there might be a basis for the article. But this is not that.Afaict this Coptic church was included because somebody went to jail. Elinruby (talk) 03:20, 25 June 2024 (UTC)

List of fires in Canada in June 2021

I still question the entire premise here, but ok, we can have a list of fire if we must, but we really need to demonstrate notability in that case. Elinruby (talk) 21:48, 29 June 2024 (UTC)

Due you mean notability in regards to WP:N or in regards to encyclopedic relevancy? If the latter, I would encourage you to suggest a minimum standard. I think the current standard—an RS verifying that a fire occurred and that it was connected to the broader series of fires—is suitable. ~ Pbritti (talk) 21:53, 29 June 2024 (UTC)

The article doesn't meet that in most of these cases. it's a list of random fires with zero followup as to outcome, interspersed with quotes saying that people are mad. Oh and let's not forget the schools getting renamed. What do they have to do with anything? Elinruby (talk) 22:26, 29 June 2024 (UTC)

Reliable sources report that these fires may be a reaction to deaths at the residential schools. Therefore any fire can be included if a possible connection is reported in reliable sources. We of course may never know how many if any of the fires are related unless culprits are found. Policy and guidelines however say they should be mentioned. I don't understand your complaint. Notability is about whether articles should exist, not what their content should be. TFD (talk) 22:51, 29 June 2024 (UTC)

Reliable sources report that some people say they could understand if they were. One of these things is not like the other. Three years out with no convictions except for a non-indigenous woman who was mad at her boyfriend. Seriously? Elinruby (talk) 18:26, 1 July 2024 (UTC)

Elinruby, reliable sources have consistently associated these fires as a collective series of events for three years. They have also almost universally drawn a tie between the residential school gravesites and the fires. Are you saying that you deny that you reject the consensus of reliable sources? ~ Pbritti (talk) 18:32, 1 July 2024 (UTC)

Are you saying that the article reflects anything in reliable sources but three-year-old-speculation? Elinruby (talk) 18:38, 1 July 2024 (UTC)

Considering that every news story on this between 2021 and 2024 has identified a link between the gravesites and the fires, no. Furthermore, the Indigenous people and government who have commented on the fires in these sources all agree that there is a connection. At this point, it sounds like you're denying criminal acts in the face of all evidence. Why? ~ Pbritti (talk) 18:44, 1 July 2024 (UTC)

Massive undiscussed changes on national holiday

Stop. You know the article is contentious. Elinruby (talk) 18:23, 1 July 2024 (UTC)

Oh shoot it is Canada Day. It also happens to be my first full day off in a while. Hopefully other editors are like you are on-project for the holiday, I guess. What changes do you have complaints about? I've focused on the tag you added about updating things regarding charges. ~ Pbritti (talk) 18:28, 1 July 2024 (UTC)

original research

There is now a post about this article at WP:NORN Elinruby (talk) 18:36, 1 July 2024 (UTC)