Talk:Dalai Lama

No Peace in Kalachakra

„There is something radically wrong, that human beings, highly, so-called highly, civilized, with a great deal of knowledge, both psychological and scientific, a great deal of struggle, wars, tears, misery, man has not been able - human beings have not been able to resolve this problem. That is the outward world, what is happening there. And nobody seems to feel it is worthwhile to forget, or drop their own particular beliefs, dogmas, political opinions, theories, conclusions, beliefs, and say, come together and resolve this problem. No politicians will do it, no priest will do it, no psychologist will do it, and the scientists will not do it either. Right?" · J. Krishnamurti

Reasons for Nobel Prize

Why Dalai Lama was awarded a Nobel Prize for Peace? What are the specific things he has done for world peace? Because he did not lauch terrorist attack against China? This article should provide some explanations on that. --128.118.54.193 (Pennsylvania State University) 02:39, 20 July 2006

The dalai lama represents an oppressive and undemocratic regime. The dalai lama being selected by rolling and cutting lumps of dough!!! If the dalai lama and the Tibetan clergy really cared for the Tibetan people in this day and age, they should dismantle their oppressive and undemocratic system, allow Tibetans to choose which religion they want to follow, install democratic processes and allow the freedon of information so individual Tibetans could make informed choices about their lives; just like what Gorbachov did for the USSR. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 194.60.106.5 (talk • contribs) 20:12, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

HHDL has said more than once that he indeed, felt that while China's invasion was a total disaster for Tibet, it did awake him to the fact that the old feudal system of Tibet desperately needed change. I understand your views of him, but I have to add on the fact that he now prefers democracy to anything else. The Muslims in Tibet too, have lived peacefully (and even inter-marrying) Buddhists in the region for a long time prior to the Chinese invasion, if anything good is to be said in his defense. Besides, that part about cutting dough is actually China's superstitious way of selection - the Tibetans do it via a long test of item recognition etc. I do believe that HHDL won the Nobel for his efforts to campaign for Tibetan freedom above all. --Ajani mgo 21:24, 12 October 2006 (UTC)

Just take a look at past winners of Nobel Peace Prize, and see how many of them have blood on their hands. 25 Oct 06.

NPOV of Article

I do not see any mention in the article of the record of oppression that has been associated with Dalai Lama rule in Tibet by scholars of the societies under the rulership of the Dalai Lamas. Nor do I see any reference to the 14th Dalai Lama's ties to Fascism on either this pageor the Tenzin Gyatso (14th/current Dalai Lama) page. The oppressive and gruesome methods that were used in old Tibet and which have been associated with the rule of Dalai Lamas were in fact condemned by the current Dalai Lama, Tenzin Gyatso. However, to my knowledge he has never condemned the fascists or admitted public regret in his ties to them.

Perhaps these elements could be mentioned under the sub heading of Controversy, or another new sub-heading. Ideas? I believe that the lacking of these elements is an NPOV issue. The article does not give any indication that there was any dissent to the rule of the Dalai Lama line much less any indication that such dissent was based in reasonable reaction to various aspects of oppression. I wish to discuss this. Ma'ath'a'yü (aka: Proofing) 15:40, 29 May 2006 (UTC)^{Talk | @}

Here are some links to information regarding my point:

Michael Parenti

• Friendly Feudalism: The Tibet Myth

Dave Emory

(Real Audio streams of the For The Record (FTR) broadcasts are available in the link under the date of broadcast beneath the header of each summary on the For The Record (Summaries of the Weekly Radio Program by Anti-Fascist Researcher Dave Emory) site pages and can also be found at the Audio Archives for Dave Emory).

• FTR #547 Hell-o Dalai Summary
• FTR #548 Tibet or not Tibet Summary
• FTR #549 The Pan-Turkist Movement, the Underground Reich and the Earth Island Summary
• FTR #550 Going Native Summary

Christopher Hitchens

• His material highness, (Salon.com July 13, 1998)

Furthermore, upon reflection of this research it may be appropriate to start a sub heading called Ties to Fascism. Ideas? Feedback? Anyone? --Ma'ath'a'yü (aka: Proofing) 05:54, 30 May 2006 (UTC)^{Talk | @}

The Tenzin Gyatso page has references to the Parenti and the Hitchens points. I still think some mention should be made in this article concerning the rulership of the Dalai Lamas, and the oppression (ie pulling out of tongues) that had occured. I think that the Fascist ties would be better placed on the 14th Dalai Lama's page but a reference to that might be made here. Ideas, feedback? --Ma'ath'a'yü (aka: Proofing) 15:41, 30 May 2006 (UTC)^{Talk | @}

The article currently lacks any description of what sort of government the various Dalai Lamas had in Tibet. This is an interesting subject and I would heartened if someone were to add information about it. It's important, as usual, that anything added be balanced and factual.

Can you elaborate in a quick summary what the claims are that the Dalai Lama has ties to fascists? I haven't had a chance to read all the sources you give yet, and I'd like to know what to focus on. - Nat Krause^(Talk!) 21:43, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

RESPONSE: The short answer: I would suggest the reading of the Parenti article and FTR#548 - (scroll down to and read section 9) for an overview of the old Tibet, and I would suggest the following for a quick review of some of the fascist ties of the 14th Dalai Lama: FTR#547 sections 2, 4, 6, 8, & 9.

The Michael Perenti article listed above overviews the Old Tibet and demonstrates that it was far from a Shangri-La. The Article is well written and heavily annotated with references to support his statements. The style, form and operation of government, and the life of the people under their rule deserves mention in this Wikipedia article. It is a point as I understand it of the PRC position that they "freed" the people from the oppression of the religious caste. NPOV would require that this be addressed.

Also, that the high priests or other courtiers killed 5 Dalai Lamas during a 170 year span should be mentioned. The article in its present state makes it seem like the successions were always due to the DL dying of natural causes, not even hinting that some were killed by his own people. That such occurred to some 5 DLs is reminiscent of the Roman Emperors and the Praetorian Guard and should be given at least mention here. Parenti draws info in part from The Timely Rain: Travels in New Tibet which seems to hold a sympathetic view of the Chinese occupation as mentioned in the off-site link here provided. I should like to have confirmation from at least one other source regarding the assassinations of the 5 Dalai Lamas. I am still researching it.

The rulership of old Tibet may perhaps better be described as more of an oppressive feudal Theocracy than Fascism in character still, the ties of the 14th Dalai Lama to fascists and fascist organizations prior to and after his exile should also be documented, if not here in detail than mentioned and referenced to a more detailed description on the Tenzin Gyatso page (were such details would also need to be written). The fascists were attracted to Tibet in part because of the tactics used by the ruling class to keep lower classes in line. That the continued affiliation by the 14th Dalai Lama may possibly be an action in support of his mission to help people towards enlightenment and that he may be trying to guide these people in that regard may also be something worth exploring, but citations would be needed.

The following link is a to an off-site page containing a series of links that show some of the difficulties that have been encountered in Buddhist cultures, including Tibet, due to oppression from their rulers and so forth: Critical Links to Buddhism and Lamaism. This is worth a quick perusal to see the scope of supporting materials available.

If I recall correctly, the Emory research (which must be read as well as listened to as he doesn't have everything documented in both medias- though most of it is), during WWII Nazi SS officers made an expedition to Tibet and were impressed with the Tibetan enforcement of rulership. They speculated that the Tibetans were of the Aryan race and proceeded to create a voluminous mass of material to support this. Nazis later convicted of war crimes were associating with the Dalai Lama at this time and later in exile. The DL via direct and circuitous routes has financial and political ties with the Aum Shinrikyo cult, the Hapsburgs, the Uighur rebellion, The Hapsburgs (read Underground Reich) and other elements to numerous to go into here but are available via the links provided in this discussion.

I also wish to be clear: fascist elements being pointed out in Buddhism or with the DL are not a condemnation of either, but a fact that should not be discounted. That some practitioners of Buddhism may have fascist leanings or ties is not an indictment of Buddhism itself.

Please let me know if this answers your question. Thanks for your interest. --Ma'ath'a'yü (aka: Proofing) 21:33, 31 May 2006 (UTC)^{Talk | @}

Based on the readings upon, it appears that the Dalai Lamas' fascist links consist of 1) Various Nazi German elements took an interest in Tibet before and during the war; 2) The current Dalai Lama (when he was a child) had a personal friendship with Heinrich Harrer, a minor SS official; 3) The exile government made the distasteful decision to include a Nazi war-criminal/Tibetologist, Bruno Beger, in a panel of Westerners who had visited Tibet before the PRC occupation; 4) The current Dalai Lama had some sort of dealings with Shoko Asahara, the Japanese cult leader whose doomsday visions apparently involved some kind of theocratic government. 5) It's not clear what connection the Habsburgs or the Uighurs might have to the issue of fascism. Is there anything else major that I've missed? - Nat Krause^(Talk!) 22:59, 31 May 2006 (UTC)

Why even bother with this junk? Comparing HH to Hitler is like comparing a demon with an dakini. I have met the Dalai Lama in person. People are so ignorant and so careless about what they post and lie. It is sick! Me 20:44, 6 July 2006 (UTC)

External Link : The truth the mainland Chinese government doesn't want you to know

• The truth the mainland Chinese government doesn't want you to know...

Does anybody else think the external link above would be helpful? I have posted it to this article, but it was removed by Hottentot. Please give an opinion. I personally, believe that the link is extremely relavent to the article.--FT in Leeds 02:11, 2 September 2005 (UTC)

The link is a good one, but it belongs on the Panchen Lama page as it concerns the 11th Panchen Lama controversy. technopilgrim 01:04, 3 September 2005 (UTC)

Dalai Lama and the HH title

I noted a disagreement between user 207.74.176.221 and Fuzheado about the use of the title "His Holiness". The fact is that the Government of Tibet in Exile uses this title when refering to the Dalai Lama. However, articles about people in encyclopedias should not use people titles without referencing it. I would suggest to rephrase the intro as the following:

The Dalai Lama (also known as "His Holiness The Dalai Lama" according to buddhists) belongs to the Gelug school of Tibetan Buddhism.

Waiting for your feedback and comments. Svest 13:56, Apr 22, 2005 (UTC)

---- That's tough. Your wording is certainly more NPOV. OTOH, as often in such cases, it is more complicated, and the information gained per word is very little. It seems that people who deny the epiteth tend to generally not believe in religious concepts, so it has less meaning for them anyway.

We have several precedents where Wikipedia or even most of the world adopts the terms used by followers or those close to the subject:

• Holy See
• Church of Scientology – not everyone agrees that this even is a church; yet, in the article it is commonly referred to as "the church" or "The Church".
• the title The Honourable does not mean that Wikipedia endorses the honour of a thus labelled person.
• Democratic People's Republic of Korea

On the other hand, assume a dictator calls himself "benefactor of mankind" and kills everyone who doesn't pay him this honour then i would strongly oppose this here.

So I guess you can find arguments for both sides. Personally, i'd prefer the direct title in this case because most people in the free world would agree that the Dalai Lama is closer to a holy person than to a malevolent dictator. — Sebastian (T) 02:21, 2005 Apr 23 (UTC)

I totally agree with your comment Sebastian. - Svest 18:23, Apr 23, 2005 (UTC)

Not one of those examples serves as a precedent that could parallel the proposed use in this article of "HH" before "DL" (other than in quotes to show how those who use it do so):

• Holy See is a short article principally about the distinctions between the RC Archdiocese of Rome and the state of the Vatican City; while it could be argued that it should be moved to Archdiocese of Rome (leaving the current title as a redirect), it combines the virtues of brevity and clarity, and is not so prominent an article (less so than Vatican City, let alone Pope) as to motivate many of us to worry long about it.
• Church of Scientology is an article about the organization with (not that it matters much) that legal name, separate from the article on Scientology, the belief system that it promotes. The "Church" name is more widely recognized than any other for the organization, and it conforms to the policy that disambiguation of names without using such parenthetic suffixes as (in this case) "(organization)" and "(belief system)" is preferred. (BTW, modern usage is pretty loose about accepting things as churches; the Universal Life Church ordained the Rev. Jefferson F**** Poland of Sexual Freedom League fame, and included the Shiva Fellowship, whose sole sacrament, in honor of Shiva the Destroyer, was the destruction of cannabis in burnt sacrifices.)
• The Honourable is an article that reports on the use of that expression in various settings; it no more advocates anyone by it than the article F*** advocates use of that term in place of sexual intercourse. (IIRC, there are plenty of articles that do apply titles that are at least similar to "The Honourable", to individuals within the British nobility and officialdom. But the persistence of most of them may well reflect giving lower priority to fixing articles on people less prominent than the DL.)
• Democratic People's Republic of Korea is a redirect to North Korea, an article that mentions that long name but always refers to the country by the article's (two-word) title.

And tho it shouldn't need to be said, neither the extremely valid opinion expressed above (viz., that the DL deserves an honorific more than would the hypothetical brutal egomaniacal dictator), nor that opinion's prevalence, is of any interest whatsoever to this discussion.

--Jerzy (t) 04:06, 2005 Apr 24 (UTC)

(still on topic within the same section:) ...Let me count the ways: User:Lulu of the Lotus-Eaters's rv of the insertion of His Holiness obviated that item on my to-do list, but more could be said about the insertion's unsuitability. Not only was the reverted edit in violation of NPoV, it also violates the rules of context that apply to such titles. Have you ever heard the expression "Their Majesties, the 98 Kings of England" or "Their Holinesses, the Popes"? Such titles are applied only to a single person (and if i am not mistaken, only to a living person -- you can't libel a dead person, nor perhaps honor anything but the memory of them), or in a borderline case, to a very specific and small group (i would imagine "Would Your Majesties like a cuppa?" is appropriate to a king and queen) and never to a class of people or to the office itself: e.g. not "and on Tuesday he was crowned His Majesty King of England".
This talk page's article is not about the current DL, whom some refer to (in PoV fashion) as HH or HH the DL. It is about the office and all those who have held it. (-- a fact that i will make less obscure than even the current text does, in the lead 'graph in a moment.)
--Jerzy (t) 04:06, 2005 Apr 24 (UTC)

See the article on His Holiness to understand why its use does not violate NPOV. It is always proper etiquette to refer to the Pope, the Dalai Lama, various patriarchs, etc., as "His Holiness". This usage in no way implies an endorsement of the respective religion or that particular person's claim to his position. It is merely a term of respect and should be used when refering to the person in a formal context. technopilgrim 01:17, 3 September 2005 (UTC)

It is not uncommon for a leader of people or the head of a religious organization, to dictate how they are best addressed. Even among the English peerage there is some lattitude as to how they style their name and form of addresss. Though usually, once decided it's a done deal. I have no difficulty with the inclusiion of HH for the Dalai Lama.Ma'ath'a'yü (aka: Proofing) 15:47, 29 May 2006 (UTC)^{Talk | @}

81.131.92.73 22:26, 28 October 2006 (UTC) There are many people who give themselves self-styled titles. Think of all the (in English trnaslations) HM's, HRH's, Kings, Queens, Princes, Princesses, etc from deposed former European royal houses, all waiting to jump back on the gravy train of hereditary rulership. If hh wants his title, let him have it, let him have his ego trip. Where does the self-styled 'Exiled Government of Tibet' actually govern? 28 Oct 06.

Lama, Reincarnations, and the Dalai Lama

Rephrased slightly. Lama is someone who teaches, a guru. While those who reincarnate are called tulku. - ExitControl

Someone removed the list of previous Dalai Lamas with the argument that it could also be gotten from the Reference. While this is true, it is no reason to remove the information from the Wiki. As can be seen at meta:When should I link externally, Wikipedia is not meant to provide links to information, but the information itself. Providing information through links is a very useful thing to do, but it is something that is done on other sites.Andre Engels

HH Dalai Lama is not the leader of the Gelug tradition, this is associated with the so called Ganden Tripa that is usually selected for a 2-4 year position amongst the former abbots of the two Gelug tantric colleges (Gyoto and Gyome). However, HH Dalai Lama is trained under the Gelug tradition, Lharampa Geshe Degree, and also is considered a master of the four main Tibetan Buddhist traditions. Kent Sandvik

---

None of the Dalai Lamas seems to have taken over in the same year as the previous one died. This makes me suspicious of the dates -- could we have some explanation of the interregnums? Mswake 19:48 Mar 18, 2003 (UTC)

Yes. Just added why there is a gap.

---

The reincarnation manifests himself by signs such as being familiar with the possessions of the previous Dalai Lama.

The above assumes the truth of reincarnation. I'd prefer for the article not to take a stand one way or another on reincarnation. So how about:

The people searching for the new Dalai Lama believe that the previous one will manifiest himself in the new one...

Or:

The searchers consider familiarity with the possesions, etc., as signs of the reincarnation.

--Uncle Ed

I think the existing text has been made neutral enough.

-- Zack 19:38, 2 Sep 2003 (UTC)

It's not neutral and it's not sensical. Why would memories of physical objects be preserved through reincarnation but not the tenets of the religion? If that's true, and the spiritual wisdom of the Dalai Lama is merely the result of re-education every time, what's the use of "finding" him at all? Oh, right, to preserve political lineage.

—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 24.18.245.16 (talk) 02:55, 28 December 2006 (UTC).

---

How did the idea of having a Dalai Lama begin? Why is the first one in 1391? Why didn't it begin earlier or later? Meelar 04:40, 14 Jan 2004 (UTC)

The fact is that the title "Dalai Lama" was given by third Dalai Lama 's disciple and powerful Mongol ruler Altan Khan in 1578. The third Dalai Lama was the incarnation of the first two Dalai Lama but they weren't called by that title in their time.

This may not anser you, but the idea of incarnation was not so old. The Geluk school borrowed this idea from another sect. That new school needed a strong leader. The Geluk school actively preached their ideas to the Mongols and reunified Tibet by their force.--Nanshu 00:36, 15 Jan 2004 (UTC)

---

The word "passing" in reference to what I will call the "death" of the Dalai Lama seems needlessly euphamistic to my western eyes. Would it be acceptable to use the word "death" to describe the future state of the current Dalai Lama? It would make the article clearer to me. -- Ke4roh 16:26, 27 Jan 2004 (UTC)

I couldn't agree more. :) Since no-one objected, I've gone ahead and changed it. Markalexander100 08:58, 17 Mar 2004 (UTC)

---

• Every other Buddhist sect in Tibet recognises the Dalai Lama as the religious ... leader of all Tibet.
• In fact, the Panchen Lama has a higher religious status than the Dalai Lama

I don't quite see how these can both be right. Markalexander100 06:58, 16 Apr 2004 (UTC)

• I suggest replace "in Tibet" with "Tibetan". That's because in Chinese Tibet no Budhist sect recognizes Dalai Lama, at least officially (there is risk of getting a lengthy prison term for this offence).

The dalai lama represents an oppressive and undemocratic regime. The dalai lama being selected by rolling and cutting lumps of dough!!! If the dalai lama and the Tibetan clergy really cared for the Tibetan people in this day and age, they should dismantle their oppressive and undemocratic system, allow Tibetans to choose which religion they want to follow, install democratic processes and allow the freedon of information so individual Tibetans could make informed choices about their lives; just like what Gorbachov did for the USSR.

194.60.106.5 13:31, 3 November 2006 (UTC) Do any other Buddhist leaders in eg Sri Lanka, Cambodia, Burma, India etc. recognise dl as a leading Buddhist?

Enlightenment

I deleted "Bodhisattvas are enlightened beings who have postponed their own nirvana and chosen to take rebirth to serve humanity" and linked the previous sentence to "Bodhisattva" instead. Quite apart from the contradiction (surely enlightened beings are those who have attained nirvana?) the whole idea of postponement is fraught with problems. See e.g. Paul Williams, Mahayana Buddhism, pp.52-3 Shantavira 08:01, 9 Jun 2004 (UTC)

The fact is that there are different levels of Enlightenment. So there are Enlightened beings who can reach Nirvana after death, reach Nirvana after several lives, those who reached "Nirvana in this life". As to boddhisattvas, they are not necessarily enlightened. Boddhisattva is the one that helps others at the expense of his own enlightenment, so he may not achieve it in one life. You may read about it in jatakas: Shakyamuni reincarnating as rabbit and in hell. What distinguishes Boddhisattva is his desire to help the others, so he practices for others, not himselt and did not achieve Enlightenment yet.

There are no "levels of Enlightenment" in Buddhism. Perhaps anon is thinking of the bhumis? Shantavira 11:22, 23 Apr 2005 (UTC)

I removed the phrase:
...,though Tenzin Gyatso (brtan 'dzin rgya mtsho) denies claims of his Buddhahood.
As the Dalai Lama is believed to be the incarnation of a Bodhisattva, I would think he has no right to claim any buddhahood? If you want to put the sentence back in, please add on what grounds he can claim.
BTW: I feel "incarnation" might be a better word instead of "manifestation", but I'll leave the verdict to the experts.
This is quite a large discussion. With so many active writers interested in the subject, maybe the articles for Panchen Lama and for Bodhisattva could be improved.
--BjKa 09:32, 2 Jun 2005 (UTC)

---

What does Gyatso mean? It appeared in most of the Dalai Lamas' names. --Menchi 08:06, 9 Jun 2004 (UTC)

Ocean. Markalexander100 08:09, 9 Jun 2004 (UTC)

I thought it was Dalai that means "ocean". --Menchi 08:38, 9 Jun 2004 (UTC)

Dalai in Mongolian. Gyato in Tibetan. Different languages, different words. ;-) Markalexander100 01:54, 10 Jun 2004 (UTC)

That makes sense! --Menchi 01:55, 10 Jun 2004 (UTC)

The only enlightenment that is real is the enlightenment begun in 17century Europe, and continues today. This enlightenment aimed to sort out reality from fantasy, and requires a lot of work and intellect from many people. 81.155.103.36 10:50, 3 July 2007 (UTC)

China's Cancer Religion.

If Buddhism isn't a religion then why can't the followers of the knowledge of Buddhism exist in proper Chinese society? If Buddhism isn't a religion, then why do they have monks? Are Buddhist monks, greedy? Monks are using others' donations and work so as to have more time for the seeking enlightenment? Workers can't afford to pray all day if they want to eat, so are monks in bad karma if they are leeching off others? Tibet region is racially Chinese, so way are some westerners causing China strife by supporting a Tibetan Government? Does Buddhism make people into zombies, tolerant of anything. The teaching of weakness? If so then China has a right to squash this religion that is a cancer of the mind. As far as I can see, Buddism is a religon and it's trying to be too political.

If this is how react to Tibetan Buddhism I can only imagine what Falun Gong must do to your blood pressure. Calm down, everything is going to be OK. technopilgrim 01:35, 3 September 2005 (UTC)

Dalai, gyatso, ocean- whatever, but Tibet is land locked, so how would the Tibetans of bygone age imagine what this title meant?

Buddhism is officially sanctioned by the Chinese government as one of the five approved faith groups (2 Christian groups, Islam, Daoism, Buddhim). Beijing itself says that Buddhism is OK and that the quest for enlightenment is suitable for the Chinese people.

82.34.112.4 14:55, 22 August 2006 (UTC)

194.120.163.5 12:42, 27 October 2006 (UTC) Buddhism is officially sanctioned by the Chinese Government. However 'lama Buddhism' is not true 'Buddhism'. The Tibetan religion is animism with some buddhism added. An analogy is Mormonism and main stream Christianity. Although Mormons claim they are Christians, their version of Christ is not accepted by the main stream Christians.

Perhaps you should first learn a bit about Tibetan Buddhism before criticising it.... rudy 20:06, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

81.131.92.73 21:32, 28 October 2006 (UTC) I have not criticised lama Buddism at all. I have simply stated the facts and gave the analogy of Mormonism and main stream Christianity. As for learning, perhaps you should learn a bit about science before jumping on the band wagon of lama Buddism. Science may be a bit more difficult, but a lot more rewarding. 28 Oct 06

194.60.106.5 09:20, 1 November 2006 (UTC) In fact science goes some way into answering, explaining and finding solutions to the questions the Buddha asked that drove him into a life of asceticism in the first place. 1 Nov 06.

Religion in present China is another subject matter. Beijing consider itself the God of Gods. Religion is fine as long as almighty reports to Beijing. Regligious schools are run by the government and future monks/priests etc are taught to be faithful to communism instead of the Budda or Vatican. Hence there are the offical sanctioned religions and the underground religions. Ex only the Pope can appoint Cardinals (hope I got this right; but the point is the same) but Beijing appoints it's own Cardinal w/o approval of the Pope.

Who is the Pope? Does he represent Protestants? Don't Catholics treat every other religion (Christian or otherwise) as heretics? Does Beijing appoint Cardinals? Who is Buddha? 'Beijing consider itself God of Gods' is a phrase invented by you because God is not a required communist belief. Discussion within these pages must surely be based on intelligent discussions of facts and not fictitious personal inventions. 17 Nov 06 — Preceding unsigned comment added by 194.60.106.5 (talk)

The Pope won't even allow the man in the link below to have a funeral of his choice. The government of China allows more religious freedom than the Vatican government. http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/6207857.stm

Dalai Lama as reincarnates

Are the Dalai Lamas believed to be reincarnates of Avalokiteshvara? If so, why no mention in the article proper? Mandel 07:02, July 21, 2005 (UTC)

Yes, this definitely is important. I've added it to the first paragraph. technopilgrim 01:50, 3 September 2005 (UTC)

Dalai is not a reincarnation of anybody. He was developed by the fusion of an egg cell and a sperm cell. He suffers diseases in the same way as everyone; links here even say he is a HepB carrier. He needed glasses from an early age. If he were the reincarnation of some spiritual or god-like being, why would he not have perfect eye vision without the help of a human invention?

The Dalai Lama is believed to be the manifestation of the karmic connection of Chenrizi (Avalokiteshvara). The 14th is not the reincarnation of the 13th, nor the 13th a reincarnation of the 12th, and so on. This is the common confused idea that has been adopted in the West. The Dalai Lama is not the reincarnation of Chenrizi, he is the manifestation of Chenrizi's karma, of his compassion. The Dalai Lama as a human individual is separate from the Dalai Lama as a manifestation of Chenrizi. *It should also be noted that the 14th himself has said that some Dalai Lamas in fact were the manifestions of Manjushri. --Bentonia School 09:14, 11 May 2007 (UTC)

The Dalai Lama is believed to be the manifestation of the karmic connection .... Believed by whom? Is it believed by anyone with a NPOV? It sounds rather POV. I should think the workings of the Universe is a bit more complicated than 'karmic connections'. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.154.200.219 (talk) 19:29, 12 May 2007 (UTC)

You should think? You don't find karma complicated? How interesting. It is believed by the Dalai Lama. See The Story of Tibet: Conversations with the Dalai Lama by Thomas Laird, ch. 1, pps. 22-26. From the text:

"When someone asks me if I am the Dalai Lama, or reincarnation of the Dalai Lama, then without hesitation I say yes. If they ask me if I am the reincarnation of the 13th Dalai Lama, then I say I don't know."

Surprised at the turn of the conversation, I carried on. "So the 13th Dalai Lama as a human being is separate from the 13th Dalai Lama as a manifestation of Chenrizi?"

"Yes," he answered..."But the Chenrizi in you," I asked, "is the same Chenrizi that was in the 13th Dalai Lama?"

"No, not Chenrizi," he said, gently correcting me. "It's some kind of special connection or blessing from Chenrizi in the 13th Dalai Lama. Or in my case, yes, perhaps a special blessing from Chenrizi. Whereas with the 13th Dalai Lama, maybe he was a true reincarnation of Chenrizi. But these things are very mysterious."

"Yes, mysterioius," I added...

"Yes," he said, nodding his head, "mysterious. But some people can understand this, if they have developed certain power of mind. It is very rare... So, you see at the spiritual level there is a connection, a lot of connection, a lot of karmic forces or spiritual forces."

So, again, the manifestation of the karmic connection or spiritual blessing or what have you, not of Chenrizi himself. But, these things are very mysertious;) Oh, and sign your posts next time. --Bentonia School 15:21, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

81.158.47.214 20:39, 30 May 2007 (UTC) Strange how this explanation does not match the explanation given of how he was first recognised as the reincarnation when he was discovered as a little boy.

Are you referring to how the Dalai Lama is chosen, by selecting articles that belonged to the previous Dalai Lama? If so, this doesn't seem contradictory. Read the passage from the book again. The key point is the karma. (Sign your posts, please) --Bentonia School 00:11, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

81.158.47.214 00:12, 1 June 2007 (UTC) A very interesting explanation. May be there is a karma-meter, which can measure the presence and direction of these karmic forces you describe.

• Rolls eyes* The fact that you don't sign your posts indicates distinctly that you're a troll. --Bentonia School 06:14, 1 June 2007 (UTC)

81.155.103.36 22:59, 1 June 2007 (UTC) Everything is signed with the 4 tildas.

Just so you know, the typical way of signing is to put the four tildes at the end of your comments rather than the beginning. Which is why Bentonia School keeps thinking you aren't signing. -- Jonel | Speak 03:41, 2 June 2007 (UTC)

I have more faith in Einstein than 'karmic connections'. 81.155.103.36 00:51, 9 June 2007 (UTC)

Good for you. --Bentonia School 17:07, 9 June 2007 (UTC)

The start could be better

I think the first sentence and paragraph here could be improved. It's quite technical, invoking 2 specialist terms (tulku and Gelugpa). For the average reader who knows nothing about Buddhism, it could be a little off-putting. Maybe there could be a sentence before it saying something about the Dalai Lama being the traditional spiritual leader of the Tibetan people. Just a suggestion. 62.231.39.150 09:21, 14 October 2005 (UTC)

Dalai Lama translation

Would be good to put the two translations together, "Ocean (of) wisdom", or something like that, instead of completely leaving the reader in the dark. Just a thought...

194.60.106.5 11:21, 25 October 2006 (UTC) Of course you could give whatever title you wish. Simply calling oneself 'Ocean of Wisdom' does not actually imply that one's wisdom is in fact as large as an ocean.

Links to CIA

Someone has added notes about CIA links back in late 1950's. I guess I don't see the point. Does it really belong? Csbodine 08:35, 24 November 2005 (UTC)

It's not about the Dalai Lama as an office, so no. Mark¹ 14:05, 24 November 2005 (UTC)

Hi, I added the CIA info, why was it taken out? I see it as a relevant point and even an historical info, and as something that could add more that one dimension about political/terrenal issues about the Dalai Lama/Tibet .

Acrilico 01:39, 26 November 2005 (UTC)

This article is about the office of the Dalai Lama, not what the government led by a particular Dalai Lama did in the 1950s. Mark¹ 02:16, 26 November 2005 (UTC)

I think the CIA links are quite properly placed on the page of the 14th/current Dalai Lama article but may also be something that should be placed here perhaps in a new sub-heading called Controversy or some such (see the NPOV concern which I will be placing above). Tenzin Gyatso has admitted to receiving money from the US through the CIA and the training of resistance fighters in a Colorado facility all taking place back in the 1960's. See the article on Tenzin Gyatso as well as the links in that article for further details regarding the CIA connection.

Ma'ath'a'yü (aka: Proofing) 15:27, 29 May 2006 (UTC)^{Talk | @}

CIA Links?

OH, great. Now this article just went into the CIA leaks. Who do we think we are, detectives? Please remove this article.

Please sign articles in the future as it helps to follow the flow of dialogue. You can do this easily by adding 4 tildas (~~~~) after your comment on the edit screen. Thanks.

See my entry above in "Links to CIA" regarding this. It is not a matter of personal knowledge from playing detective in the bushes (which would be a violation of Wikipedia content guidelines). Such a connection between the CIA and the 14th Dalai Lama having occurred is not in dispute as it has been admitted to by the 14th Dalai Lama. The question is where that factual information should be placed. Not including it would likely violate the NPOV as it has probable bearing on some of the PRC position as regards the Dalai Lama and Tibet. Hope that clarifies it. --Ma'ath'a'yü (aka: Proofing) 08:06, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

Dalai Lama and Panchen Lama

Can someone please explain the relationship between Dalai Lama and Panchen Lama? Also, as for the lottery selection system in front of the Chinese Emperor, does it only apply to Panchen Lama? or it applies to Dalai Lama as well? Every new Panchen/Dalai Lama must be officially recognized by current Chinese Emperor? When did this tradition begin?
thanks—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 216.163.94.3 (talk • contribs) 00:29, 22 December 2005.

The Imperial Ordinance promulgated by Qianlong Emperor in 1793 stated that the selection of the Dalai Lama, the Panchen Lama and other high-rank lamas shall be made by means of the Golden Urn lottery[M.C. Goldstein, 'A history of modern Tibet', p44, n13].--219.79.166.53 02:16, 8 February 2006 (UTC)

Great, and what does this emperor have to do with that? rudy 20:10, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

194.60.106.5 13:36, 3 November 2006 (UTC) Nothing. The whole of China isn't going back to the rule of the emperors and the regional Tibet isn't going back to the rule of the lamas.

Can any one tell me how Dalai gains the power to select Panchen?

So far as I know they are the leaders of different branches of Lamaism. And why can I see Tibet as part of China on maps published by the government of ROC on Taiwan? My friend told me Buddhists are not allow to kill, but why can lamas kill slaves? Ain't they Buddhists? Or their religion is quite different from other Buddhisms? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 88.106.114.254 (talk • contribs) 15:32, 28 December 2005.

Well, just for clarity for anyone else who might be reading this, the Panchen Lama is not the leader of a different branch of Tibetan Buddhism. Rather the Dalai Lama and the Panchen Lama are both part of the Gelug sect, and they are traditionally involved in finding the replacement for the other. You might be thinking of the controversy over the recognition of the Karmapa, who is the leader of a different sect, and which the Dalai Lama has involved himself in. However, note that, in that case, the Dalai Lama and the Chinese government are on the same side. - Nat Krause^(Talk!) 03:17, 11 April 2006 (UTC)

Protected with vandalism

Please note that this protected page still shows traces of vandalism. RexNL 20:33, 11 January 2006 (UTC)

Just took out some vandalism - "doosh bag" was found at the end of the list of lamas. 68.197.193.247 23:21, 8 February 2006 (UTC)

Since the dalai lamas are reincarnations of previous dl's should living dl's be charged with the crimes they committed in their previous lifes?

International law is secular and so does not recognize reincarnation, and neither do the laws of most modern countries, so the answer would be no. The current and previous Lama are counted as seperate individuals in law regardless of their status within Buddhism.

The Office of the Lama however could probably be found culpable of certain crimes, but this would most likely be done by making it responsible for the actions of its members in the same way that a company can be held responsible for the action of a past chairman.

82.34.112.4 15:01, 22 August 2006 (UTC)

Very interesting legal position. Does it mean that legally speaking, the claim of reincarnation made by the dl and adherents are unlawful, and as such, false and misleading? As the dl claims reincarnation, could the dl be brought before a Court and made to prove his claim, or otherwise to stop misleading others? Is such legal protection enshrined in for example the UK's Trade Description Act? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 194.60.106.5 (talk • contribs) 18:51, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

I think you are getting stuff confused: one is what the law says, and that relates to living persons, not related to reincarnations. The other point is one may recognise a person as the reincarnation of another dead person, but the two persons are different persons, dying and being reborn is different from getting a haircut :-) rudy 20:13, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

81.131.92.73 21:38, 28 October 2006 (UTC) Really? I wonder who is confused? 28 Oct 06.

194.60.106.5 12:03, 31 October 2006 (UTC) ', dying and being reborn is different from getting a haircut'? Of course it is; in fact dying and rebirth are very different from each other too. I think what people want to know is what is the difference between 'reborn' and 'born', not whether it is the same as getting a haircut or not. 31 Oct 06

194.60.106.5 10:02, 6 November 2006 (UTC) 'The other point is one may recognise a person as the reincarnation of another dead person, but the two persons are different persons,'... You should apply statistics and genetics analyses to this point of yours. Given the Tibetan culture of polyandry, add a bit of infidelity, add a few travellers (pilgrims and travelling salesmen), and add the traditional Himalayan and Mongolian hospitality, are you surprised that there are 'strangers' who are recognised as reincarnation of another dead person, but are two different persons?

Unqualified Use of "incarnation"

It seems to me that use of the word "incarnation" without qualification creates some major baggage. When we say that the current Dalai Lama is an "incarnation" of past Dalai Lamas, we're making some pretty specific metaphysical claims, are we not?

194.60.106.5 09:08, 1 November 2006 (UTC) I think you are right, but some metaphysical concepts get corrupted into physical concepts, which then start all sorts of arguments and hatred between peoples that could ultimately lead to wars and the horrific deaths of millions. This appears to be a fact of life in the history of human civilisations and is still happening today. 1 Nov 06

where to add this article link ?

Tibet's Contribution to World Culture Ramashray 11:31, 20 March 2006 (UTC)

Tibet was conquered my the Mongols, Not the PRC

It was conquered by the mongol empire, not a recent conquest of PRC, Tibet was then integrated with the Ming Dynansty. There was never a question of the PRC "invading" Tibet As it was stated int he article. You would think the United States would have acted, seeing all the fancy stuff they're doing with Taiwan. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 75.2.171.43 (talk • contribs) 02:46, 11 April 2006.

Yeah, well, according to the government-in-exile, Tibet was a sovereign state prior 1951, which had a very close diplomatic relationship to Qing China as well as a traditional religious relationship between the successive Dalai Lamas and the successive Aisin-Gioro emperors. The fact that the U.S. acted in the case of Taiwan but not Tibet probably has a lot to do with their capabilities: the U.S. is a major naval power, but Tibet is a landlocked place. In any event, Wikipedia is not a debate site. You may wish to take this sort of argumentation to www.politicalcrossfire.com or some similar site. - Nat Krause^(Talk!) 02:57, 11 April 2006 (UTC)

Nat Krause was the one treating this site as a debate site. The previous person was merely stating a fact.

Tibet became independent from China, and was then reconqured by the PRC. As the PRC and the ofrmer government are two different entities and two seperate armies were used, they count as seperate invasions.

Taiwan was accessible and strategically important, Tibet wasn't. America did try to act through the CIA, but that came to very little in the end.

82.34.112.4 15:05, 22 August 2006 (UTC)

Yes, we are very aware of PRC re-writing history to whatever suits them at the moment. rudy 20:16, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

81.131.92.73 22:35, 28 October 2006 (UTC) And yes, we are all also very aware that exiled Tibetan are doing exactly the same thing. 28 Oct 06.

link

[Editors who remove non-vandalistic talk, e.g, the following, w/o explanation, are candidates for being blocked, regardless of the merits of the deleted material. --Jerzy•t 11:33, 15 April 2006 (UTC)]

Please see the incident report linked to below for explanation of why this link has been removed. --He:ah? 21:02, 15 April 2006 (UTC)

Hi, I would like to add an external link to the World of Biography entry probably the most famous portal of biography to this article. Does anybody have any objections?—The preceding unsigned comment was added by Jameswatt (talk • contribs) Revision as of 09:16, 15 April 2006 (UTC)

please do not add this to the article, and please read the incident report before giving the go-ahead. This is spam and not link-worthy under WP:EL; the articles contain many distortions, lack citations, and contain nothing that wouldn't fit directly in the wiki article. a link to worldofbiography has been placed on over 70 talk pages by User:Jameswatt. thanks. --He:ah? 21:02, 15 April 2006 (UTC)

Spelling of the names of the Dalai Lamas

Note that the spellings on the list of previous and currents Dalais Lama was recently changed; the new spelling is according to the official PRC romanisation of Tibetan. The matter is being discussed at Wikipedia_talk:Naming conventions (Tibetan), because it relates directly to the recently proposals for Wikipedia:Naming conventions (Tibetan). - Nat Krause^(Talk!) 23:18, 16 April 2006 (UTC)

The changes by the anonymous user 138.110.75.90 (Mount Holyoke College) didn't make sense. He/she should have looked at the column headings. But I've changed the table again. I've removed the links from the official spellings and put them into the right column. —Babelfisch 01:54, 18 April 2006 (UTC)

Chinese

I just want to say, the openning page of this site. The name of "Dalai Lama" written in Chinese two times, one in simplied Chinese and the other is traditional Chinese. I think it is irrelevant to write his name in Chinese. The original name is conferred on by Mongolian Altan Khan and it was in Mongolian. It is more suitable to write "Dalai Lama" in Mongolian language than in Chinese. The Chinese word "Dalai Lama" does not reflect anything and it does not have actual meaning of the title itself. I think this online database is invaded by colonial terms. -- 71.31.30.125 22:18, 5 June 2006

You make a reasonable point. I'm not sure why the Chinese should be included. - Nat Krause^(Talk!) 17:59, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

It makes sense to include the Chinese because Tibet is today de facto a part of China and it is a useful piece of information. —Babelfisch 07:44, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

Writing in Mongolian is making much more sense than in Chinese because Tibet-Mongolian relation which was termed as "Priest-Pratron Relation" or "Choe-Yon-Dral-Wa" is still alive since Mongolian kings and public adopted Buddhism as way of life. For example, Even before China occupied Tibet, there were Mongolian monks studying in the three great monateries of Tibet. Upon completion of study, they go back home and preach to the public. Even, today Mongolian public and monasteries have been sending monks to study in the replicas of three great monasteries of Tibet which are in India. Dalai Lama has been invited and greeted with much devotion as Tibetans have devotion in him. In this context, where does Chinese name fit? Isn't mongolian more suitable than Chinese?

Palden Kyab

In which case don't write it in English either because Dalai Lama has no meaning in English. JC 8 Sep 06 —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 194.60.106.5 (talk • contribs) 18:56, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

194.60.106.5 13:42, 3 November 2006 (UTC) I should think most Mongolians have never seen an ocean (gyatso, dalai) and wouldn't know what it really is.

What are you trying to prove with your silly questions and comments? If you want to learn something about Buddhism go to a Buddhist discussion forum. We are trying to make an encyclopedia here. rudy 20:51, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

No thank you. Go and brainwash someone else. This is the discussion part of Wikipedia- the online Encyclopedia, where facts and truths may be discussed and challenged, so that the contents are balanced and correct to give the NPOV. By the way you don't own Wikipedia, so don't tell others what to do here. If you don't like it don't join in, because other people may find your comments extremely silly and naive. Is your attitude an example of lama buddhist 'tolerance'? 17 Nov 06.— Preceding unsigned comment added by 194.60.106.5 (talk)

Selecting the new Dalai Lama

What happens if the declared Dalai Lama's parents do not wish to let their child become Dalai Lama? Or this has never happened? --A Sunshade Lust 01:10, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

I don't know the details, but I doubt this has ever happened. Generally, the search party would research all the details of the child's life, including his family, and so they would know if the family is religious. From a secular perspective, it would be foolish for them to choose a child whose parents would resist the idea. From a religious perspective, I imagine that it is assumed that the deceased lama will himself choose to be born into a family that believes in reincarnated lamas.—Nat Krause^(Talk!) 07:00, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

Question, are the chosen Dalai Lamas taken from their families forever, never to be seen again? Are they allowed to see their birth parents and still treat them as family, or do they cut off all contact with them whatsoever? Help me out here with this one, guys, please, it's bugging me like crazy. --Jonathan.Bruce 11:46, 25 November 2006 (UTC)

If you look at the links here you will find that the current dl's brother and sister are also high up in the organisation. So yes the family (in this current birth-cycle) is in contact, probably very close contact, as it seems to be a family business. Of course contact also depends on whether the dl's parents are still alive or not (or presumably whether they have been reborn into someone else after they died in the last life-cycle), and it would also depend on what you mean by birth parents because although the mother is defined, not all fathers are defined as in your tradition given the Tibetan system of polyandry. 27 Nov 06

Died Young

Why did so many of the Dalai Lamas die young? Is the spirit of Dalai Lama suicidal?

This is purely speculative of course, but some people say that intrigues tended to be very widespread in the highest circles in Tibet, and the use of poison was unfortunately well-known... rudy 22:30, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

Vegetarian

Is the Dalai Lama a vegetarian?

No.—Nat Krause^(Talk!) 07:00, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

Hyperlink in article stated that dl has to eat meat because he became infected with hepatitis B. If this is true did he contract the disease during tantric activities (which other hyperlinks said is a part of lamaism)? 26 Oct 06 81.131.27.191 19:36, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

One gets hepatitis A usually from eating infected food or infected water; who knows if that was food or drink taken during a tantric practice or ceremony. If you think of sex, NO, a monk like the Dalai Lama is celibate. rudy 20:16, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

The site said hepB not hepA. 194.60.106.5 12:06, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

Links from references here certainly stated Tibetan lamas were/are very far from being celibate. See references to June Campbell. 194.60.106.5 12:33, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

People claim all kinds of things, and perhaps some have not been celibate, but were they monks? By definition in the monks vows, when they would have sex they are not monks anymore. Please don't try to project this kind of slander onto the Dalai Lama. rudy 20:20, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

But you still haven't answered the original question. The links here said dalai was told to eat meat (presumably to keep his body strong) because he had contracted hepB (not hepA). So how did he contract hepB? If this is not true, or if you don't actually know, why don't you say so? True Buddhist monks are not supposed to eat meat either, so is a meat eating Buddhist monk not a Buddist monk any more (like your example of sexually active monks)? In this day and age no public figure is beyond being questioned. Not answering a reasonable question serves only to implicate intrigue and conspiracy. Clinton had to answer for his personal activities whilst in office, so why should this be different for the dalai? 81.131.92.73 21:22, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

I heard that the dalai lama isn't allowed to kill animals. But if he eats meat, isn't it a kind of dissaccord, because when somebody eats meat he kills indirect animals. Because of his demand somebody kills animals to accomodate the demand of animally food.

Well it is a common practice for Tibetan buddhist and monks to eat meat because in many places in Tibet is nearly impossible to live off the meager crop system. They take a vow to eat whatever they can collect from the townspeople and if that inclues meat then they will eat it. 216.145.194.156 00:53, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

The argument against eating meat is it aids in suffering. But if the animal is already killed then are you heling with suffering? The debate ensues.

So it's OK to be a vulture in buddhism? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.155.103.36 (talk • contribs) 23:01, 12 June 2007 (UTC)

Let me quote the Venerable Dhammika in his book titled, Good Questions, Good Answers,

"Devadatta (the cousin of the Buddha) told the Buddha there should be five more rules added to the fledgling code of conduct for bhikkhus. One of these five was that monks should no longer be permitted to eat meat or fish. The Buddha turned down this demand, stating monks should eat whatever is offered by the lay community. He said the only time they should refuse meat or fish from the laity was when it was killed for them; neither should they desire to kill for food themselves. The refusal of the Buddha to concede these demands led not only to the first schism in the sangha, but also led Devadatta, in his frustration at not being successful in starting his own sangha, to try to take the life of the Buddha."

Yes; and it's OK for Buddhist clergy to have sex too? Why because the Buddha himself had plenty of sex because he had many children. 81.158.47.214 16:55, 20 May 2007 (UTC)

If you haven't realised, the Buddha had one child and it was before he set out for enlightenment Jmlee369 22:17, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

It perhaps should be noted - for this discussion only, not in the article - that in the modern Korean tradition, some sects of Buddhist monks are allowed to marry, though it is preferred that both husband and wife are monk and nun. There are some temples throughout Korea that are seen over by monastic families - monk/nun father and mother, and their monk/nun childern. Some of these temples have some of the oldest Buddhist relics left in the country, especially around the northern areas of Jirisan. --Bentonia School 18:21, 2 June 2007 (UTC)

But they're not monks and nuns in the sense that they are bikshus/bikshunis. No matter how hard some may claim, they are not upholding the Vinaya and therefore have no status as 'monks and nuns' as the term is used in Buddhism. It is like in Japan where the term priest is used instead. Jmlee369 06:39, 4 June 2007 (UTC)

Just proves that they are all ordinary human beings, like everyone else.81.155.103.36 12:01, 9 June 2007 (UTC)

Reverted after vandalism.

Reverted after vandalism making false claims. The only reason I could see against this would be if, in fact, he is the world's "Foremost authority on the Rubik's cube" and can "Solve it in under 20 seconds"

--ReviewDude 18:16, 20 October 2006 (UTC)

Divination

In a documentary about Tibetan oracles by David Cherniack (click here for high-bandwidth) it is shown how the Dalai Lama uses common sense, personal opinions, oracles and divination for dicision making purposes. Could something be added to this page? Wiki-uk 12:59, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

Doesn't 'common sense', 'oracles' and 'divination' seem to contradict each other? 4 Dec 06.— Preceding unsigned comment added by 194.60.106.5 (talk)

Right, in this documentary the Dalai Lama states that he only uses these methods when there is a dilemma. He follows the 'middle way': he does not want to abolish the oracles completely (as they belong to the Tibetan culture), as this would be extreme, nor does he want rely totally on them, as this would be extreme as well. Wiki-uk 13:34, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

This guy is a leader? Life is full of dilemmas. Personally for example: Do I walk to work today or do I take the bus, or should I walk half the way and take the bus for the other half? So this guy must spend all his days consulting oracles to 'help' him make decisions with his dilemmas. Executives in the rest of the world, please learn from this guy, unmuddle the world. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 194.60.106.5 (talk)

In fact, doesnt a deity, via oracle, 'sit' in the parliament-equivalent of tibetan goverment in exile? This community seems to give a great importance to oracles, now what one might think of this is quite irrelevant for an encyclopedia. Not that this comment is itself any more helpfull for the actual purpose of the discussion page - creating a better encyclopedia article...--83.131.147.153 00:38, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

What deity are you talking about?

The Head of Tibettan Buddhis or The (ex-)Head of Tibet?

Intro says, "The Dalai Lama is considered the supreme head of Tibetan Buddhism, and the leaders of all four schools consider the Dalai Lama to be the highest lama of the Tibetan traditions." As I understand it, he used to be the political head of state before the Chinese takeover. But he is not even the head of his own school. The above statement is highly suspicious so I added {{}}. If no verifiable source turns up, then, it will be deleted. Vapour

Minor Vandalism

I just stopped a minor vandalism in History, can somebody with more skill please revert this? 62.251.15.186 16:58, 19 January 2007 (UTC) LCV

Where is the vandalism? Khoikhoi 07:16, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

Measure against vandalism

I took the liberty to sprotect this article against vandalism by people who are unregistered, as this page is vandalised several times per week; hope it helps...rudy 22:03, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

I don't understand

Having read the article, I haven't a clue what the Dalai Lama is. I need this for a school project, and to me the language uses her is jibberish. It needs a good edit.

I second your motion. This article is surprisingly unencyclopedic. If I didn't have a broad background on the Dalai Lama, I wouldn't understand this article as it is a mere list of facts. --SvenGodo 19:20, 6 April 2007 (UTC)

Incarnation

The present Dalai Lama has said himself (see The Story of Tibet, ch. 1) that some Dalai Lamas were in fact manifestations of Manjushri and not Chenrizi. Furthermore, the explanation that the 14th gives on the position of the Dalai Lama regarding the thread of manifestations is contrary to common belief, and the explanations given here in this article. I believe this article in total is very unaccomodating in the actuality of the Dalai Lama; that is, it is far too "Western minded". --Bentonia School 02:21, 12 April 2007 (UTC)

Belief and existence are two different things. Just because some Stone-Age people believe they came to being from some mumbo-jumbo, does not mean that the mumbo-jumbo actually existed. In fact, it would demonstrate that this mumbo-jumbo is far from true. Are you suggesting that people with a good understanding of modern knowledge should believe what a primitive Stone-Age people tell them? 81.155.103.36 11:03, 22 July 2007 (UTC)

Bodyguards

I heard up until the 20th century the various Dalai Lamas had a team of martial artist bodyguards that were actually bred specifically for the task. Does this have some truth or is it a myth? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Exander (talk • contribs) 08:11, 4 May 2007 (UTC).

There were a group of monastic police/security guards called dhob dhob. They typically were the largest monks and they even wore padding under their robes to enhance the appearance of their bulk. They protected the Dalai Lama and Lhasa in general (there is a scene in Seven Years in Tibet where there are four dhob dhob guarding the main gate into Lhasa). They were "warrior monks" in the loosest sense of the term, but they likely were not like the Shaolin monks. As far as being bred for the job, I don't know about that, it sounds suspect, but they were required to take the vows of the vinayasutra, that is, the disciplines of a monk. --Bentonia School 09:23, 11 May 2007 (UTC)

(Just as an interesting note,) The Dalai Lama still has a team of body guards trained in martial arts. I had the chance to briefly meet his former bodyguard, Wangda, at my school through a project organised by a teacher. Despite his age, he still looked like a guy you wouldn't mess with. And he managed to look like a sage at the same time --Dandin1 03:21, 3 June 2007 (UTC)

That's interesting. A great experience, I'm sure. I would suppose that the Dalai Lama's bodyguards are still the dhob dhob and that they likely follow the same routines they did in times past. --Bentonia School 04:27, 3 June 2007 (UTC)

Actually, the institution of dhob dhobs were abolished in Old Tibet by an abbot of Sera monastery. They weren't really monks and they murdered a previous abbot for supporting one regent over another during the intermediate years between the 13th and the 14th Dalai Lama. It got too political. If you haven't noticed, HHDL's body guards are those professional looking ones with the suits and sunglasses. Either them or Western martial arts experts. Jmlee369 06:27, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

I see. However, are you suggesting that the dhob dhob didn't take the vows of the vinayasutra? --Bentonia School 14:09, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

They probably received the vows but probably didn't keep them too well. They didn't study at the monasteries and reluctantly participated in the pujas. Also, they were known to grow a plait of hair as long as they could. Jmlee369 22:05, 8 June 2007 (UTC)

Very interesting. Can you recommend a book that illustrates all this info? Thanks for sharing, by the way. --Bentonia School 16:55, 9 June 2007 (UTC)

There is this book about a former dob dob recounting his experiences. I forget what it was called though.Jmlee369 10:40, 15 June 2007 (UTC)

Okay, well, I'll see if I can dig it up anywhere. Thanks. --Bentonia School 15:41, 20 June 2007 (UTC)

Dobdob (in Tibetan: ལྡོབ་ལྡོབ། or དོབ་དོབ།) were a caste of monks, not just guards of the Dalai Lama. They didn't follow monastic vows (to put it politely), they protected the monasteries and terrorised the population. There are many references to them in books on Tibet, e.g. in Melvyn C. Goldstein, A History of Modern Tibet, 1913-1951, p. 89f., 424ff. etc. and in Alexandra David Neel, Magic and Mystery in Tibet, p. 109f.

Tashi Tsering describes in his autobiography, The Struggle for Modern Tibet, how young boys in Lhasa feared the dobdob because they sexually abused children; his experiences are quite horrific. Geoffrey Samuel writes in Civilized Shamans that 10 to 15 per cent of the monks in the great Gêlug monasteries around Lhasa were dobdob. Just one of the facts the propaganda pap of the exiles doesn't mention and their Western followers usually are not aware of.

Sorry for this deviation, this discussion doesn't really have anything to do with the article. —Babelfisch 03:34, 21 June 2007 (UTC)

It's all good - that's why it's in the discussion page and not in the article. --Bentonia School 15:54, 21 June 2007 (UTC)

Requested move

The following discussion is an archived discussion of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Dalai Lama → (Not this article, but the individual Dalai Lama articles) — Each article presently is int he form of Firstname Lastname, Xth Dalai Lama. I am suggesting for consistency with other articles and to conform to naming conventions that the "Xth Dalai Lama" portion be cut. For instance, see John Paul II, rather than John Paul II, 256th Pope of the Roman Catholic Church. —-Justin (koavf)·T·C·M 18:59, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

Survey

Feel free to state your position on the renaming proposal by beginning a new line in this section with *'''Support''' or *'''Oppose''', then sign your comment with ~~~~. Since polling is not a substitute for discussion, please explain your reasons, taking into account Wikipedia's naming conventions.

• Oppose. See below for reasoning. Stwalkerster talk review 19:27, 6 June 2007 (UTC)
• Oppose - I agree. --Tλε Rαnδоm Eδιτоr 21:56, 6 June 2007 (UTC)
• support moves per koavf, each article _does_ give the details mentioned below, but like the pope examples above, we really need to revert to name only as per WP:MoS about honorifics-Elizabeth II of the United Kingdom doesn't have her queenly title, and Akihito isn't referred to imperially in his namespace. Titles don't belong in article names. Chris 22:30, 6 June 2007 (UTC)
• oppose; if anything, we should eliminate the name portion and just have the articles at 14th Dalai Lama, 13th Dalai Lama, 12th Dalai Lama, etc., since this is overwhelmingly the way they are most commonly known. I am particularly opposed to removing the title from Tenzin Gyatso, since he is famous throughout the world almost exclusively as simply "the Dalai Lama". Also, it might be worth noting that Tibetan names are susceptible to frequent reuse, so there might be a case for pre-emptive disambiguation, just as with western monarchs and religious hierarchs. (Incidentally, koavf's example is a bit odd, since John Paul II is actually located at Pope John Paul II, i.e. it is an example of an article title that does include the person's title).—Nat Krause^{(Talk!·What have I done?)} 03:29, 7 June 2007 (UTC)
• Oppose There is no comparison with the Pope as the naming conventions of the two are totally different. It is perfectly acceptable and most common to call a Dalai Lama by their "number" such as the 13th Dalai Lama. Whereas the Popes do not seem to have this, certainly not as far as I am aware. This should be left "as is". ♦Tangerines BFC ♦·Talk 01:07, 9 June 2007 (UTC)

• Oppose The title "Dalai Lama" should be included in the article title; this is how they are known. Noel S McFerran 03:00, 9 June 2007 (UTC)
• Oppose How many names of individual Dalai Lamas can most people name? When searching for information on, say, the Great Fifth Dalai Lama, who is going to know what his name was if they are new to the subject? Most people don't even know the name of the current Dalai Lama. Articles should be accessed simply, not in a scholarly form to please those who know all there is to know about the Dalai Lama. What service would that provide? Wikipedia is a resource for all people, not for those who already know all about said topic. --Bentonia School 17:04, 9 June 2007 (UTC)
• Oppose I agree with Nat Krause; most Western books, including those in English, say 5th or 14th Dalai Lama; we should move there, if anywhere. Bentonia School's questions remain unanswered. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 21:27, 10 June 2007 (UTC)

Discussion

Any additional comments:

• I oppose this because this article gives (or should give) details about the Dalai Lama(s) in general, and each separate page about each Dalai Lama give info about each individual Dalai Lama. eg.

Dalai Lama: The dalai lama is...

Dalai Lama the Xth: This Dalai Lama was born on ...

Thanks, Stwalkerster talk review 19:31, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

Okay The pages should give this information, but why in the title? The pages should also list when they were born, but pages shouldn't be title "Firsname Lastname, Xth Dalai Lama, born in XXXX." And why are they titled, for instance, "Tenzin Gyatso, 14th Dalai Lama" instead of "Tenzin Gyatso, Fourteenth Dalai Lama?" I have no objection to the title "Dalai Lama" in the name per se, but the arbitrary fashion in which it has been added. What about "Tenzin Gyatso, Dalai Lama" or "Tenzin Gyatso (Dalai Lama)"? -Justin (koavf)·T·C·M 15:12, 7 June 2007 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

It was requested that this article be renamed but there was no consensus for it be moved. --Stemonitis 20:48, 11 June 2007 (UTC)