User talk:Flavius Belisarius

Welcome!

Hello, Flavius Belisarius, and welcome to Wikipedia! Thank you for your contributions. I hope you like the place and decide to stay. Here are some pages that you might find helpful:

• The five pillars of Wikipedia
• How to edit a page
• Help pages
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• How to write a great article
• Manual of Style

I hope you enjoy editing here and being a Wikipedian! Please sign your name on talk pages using four tildes (~~~~); this will automatically produce your name and the date. If you need help, check out Wikipedia:Questions, ask me on my talk page, or ask your question and then place {{helpme}} after the question on your talk page. Again, welcome!  --AW 21:14, 27 April 2007 (UTC)

Merhaba, sizin VikiProje Türkiye'ye katılabileceğinizi düşündük. Ayrıca yalnız başınıza ya da diğer kullanıcılarla birlikte Türkiye ile ilgili maddeleri düzenleyip geliştirebilirsiniz. Eğer projemize katılmak istiyorsanız lütfen katılımcılar sayfasını ziyaret edin ve adınızı yazın ya da projenin tartışma sayfasına tıklayın. Eğer herhangi bir sorunuz varsa benimle ya da bir başka VikiProje Türkiye üyesi ile bağlantı kurabilirsiniz. Hello, we were thinking that you may possibly want to join WikiProject Turkey. There you can also find and contact users who are trying to improve Turkey-related articles. If you would like to get involved, just visit the participants page and/or inquire at the project's talk page. If you have any questions, feel free to contact me or any other member of the WikiProject Turkey.

Deniz^T_C 04:20, 28 April 2007 (UTC)

Thank you very much. I'm in :) Flavius Belisarius 22:04, 3 May 2007 (UTC)

Welcome

Hello, Nice to see a user from ancient anatolian history.Happy editing.Must.^{T C} 17:07, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

Aye Captain! :) Flavius Belisarius 17:08, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

Turkish Armed Forces

"Leave it to the Turks"? Please explain this. Hiberniantears 11:30, 21 May 2007 (UTC)

I mean:

Leave it to people who served in the Turkish Army and know the history, structure, equipment and military doctrine of the Turkish Armed Forces better than you do. Is this clear enough?

I'm sure you can do miracles in improving the Irish Armed Forces article, but this one is probably beyond your knowledge and expertise.

I served the Turkish Army as a blue beret mountain commando at Eğirdir Dağ Komando Okulu ve Eğitim Merkezi Komutanlığı, by the way.

Regards. Flavius Belisarius 11:37, 21 May 2007 (UTC)

• Well... that explains your ethnocentric nationlist bias. You really seemed to have potential as a solid editor, with strong knowledge of your topic. Too bad to see you think you need to be discriminatory, and pushy. Please read:

Bias

NPOV requires views to be represented without bias. All editors and all sources have biases. A bias is a prejudice in a general or specific sense, usually in the sense of having a predilection for one particular point of view or ideology. One is said to be biased if one is influenced by one's biases. A bias could, for example, lead one to accept or not accept the truth of a claim, not because of the strength of the claim itself, but because it does or does not correspond to one's own preconceived ideas.

Types of bias include:

Class

bias favoring one social class and bias ignoring social or class divisions;

Commercial

advertising, coverage of political campaigns favoring corporate interests, or reporting favoring media owner interests;

Ethnic or racial

racism, nationalism, regionalism and tribalism;

Geographical

describing a dispute as it is conducted in one country, when the dispute is framed differently elsewhere;

Nationalistic

favoring the interests or views of a particular nation;

Gender

including sexism and heteronormativity;

Political

bias in favor of or against a particular political party, policy or candidate;

Religious

bias for or against religion, faith or beliefs;

Sensationalist

favoring the exceptional over the ordinary. This includes emphasizing, distorting, or fabricating exceptional news to boost commercial ratings;

Scientific

favoring a scientist, inventor, or theory for a non-scientific reason.

Regards. Hiberniantears 11:42, 21 May 2007 (UTC)

And what makes you think that I'm biased?

I think YOU are the biased one.

Even the badge of the Turkish Army contains "209 B.C." at the bottom.

It's the self-definition of the Turkish Armed Forces, not my personal opinion.

I wish Ireland had a proper military and military history so that you could spend some more time on improving that one instead of deleting my edits with your lack of knowledge and abundance of..... bias.

Regards. Flavius Belisarius 11:48, 21 May 2007 (UTC)

• • You are in violation of The Three Revert Rule, and have been warned accordingly. Hiberniantears 12:51, 21 May 2007 (UTC)

With your logic, the History of Greece should start in 1830, as it was in 1830 that the present-day Hellenic Republic gained its independence from the Ottoman Empire. But it's not that way. And logically so.

Actually the History and Mission sections of TAF in Wikipedia are substantially "toned done" (here's the official version at TAF's official website):

http://www.tsk.mil.tr/eng/genel_konular/tarihce.htm

Regards. Flavius Belisarius 13:07, 21 May 2007 (UTC)

That is exactly what I am saying. If the Greek page, or any other page lacks such logic, then rest assured that I will turn my focus to these pages next. The History of Greek Peoples extends back prior to 1830, just at the History of Turkish Peoples begins prior to the 1920's. However, the Greek Armed Forces are a modern invention, and have no basis in the Ancient, or even Byzantine world. The Turkish Armed Forces should refer to the armed forces of the Republic of Turkey. I think that a larger page on the history of ethnically Turkish military forces is great, but has no place in this article. The very fact that 209 BC is on a badge for a military representing a country that did not exist until the 1920's should be a red flag as to the objective nature of the Turkish Armed Forces in reporting their own history.

To address your own observation of my ethnicity: I am a third generation Irish American. You will not find me writing articles which attempt to assert the armed forces of either the Republic of Ireland, or the United States of America existed before the founding of either state. The fact that people who founded both states existed, and fought, prior to the existence of either state is moot. For me to do so would be a nationalist POV counter to recorded history. Hiberniantears 13:25, 21 May 2007 (UTC)

Additionally, please accept my appology as the 3RR warning was errant. Hiberniantears 13:46, 21 May 2007 (UTC)

Hey, just a minute...

Shupp, you know you are still officially banned. You were banned not just for that image story but also for your aggressive stance over editing disputes. I silently let you continue editing under your new account on the assumption that you'd make an effort of working peacefully. Now I see you've run into this dispute and there's again quite a bit of aggressive behaviour apparently.

I obviously ought to block you right here and now, under the circumstances. Somehow, I don't know why, I yet hesitate to do so...

Fut.Perf. ☼ 21:50, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

I understand you very well, and would like to thank you for your understanding (I honestly am trying to be more positive) but this person is only "deleting" edits without asking for the permission of others in the Talk sections. It is a civilized form of "vandalism", don't you think so? It took me days of research work to write that information but it takes Hiberniantears a second to delete them all, according to his wishes and personal opinions. This is unfair. Flavius Belisarius 00:04, 24 May 2007 (UTC)

No, it is not vandalism, because he is working form a reasonably argued intention to improve the articles. He also didn't delete content, he said he moved it. Anyway, you are now deep into revert-warring, banned or no banned, and you continued reverting even after my warning, and on several articles, so I really have no choice now but a block. Fut.Perf. ☼ 05:21, 24 May 2007 (UTC)

Then I would advise you to ask him to maintain and update the inventory tables from now on, and create new articles regarding Turkish naval history. Since he's such a knowledgeable person on these issues. Regards. Flavius Belisarius 11:40, 24 May 2007 (UTC)

Just a note

Even though I feel you should be banned for your recent behavior, I just wanted to let you know that your efforts on the Turkish Navy article since yesterday have been a vast improvement to the article, and to your attitude. Clear, objective, focused on the specific topic of the article, and highly informative. It remains to be seen if you can work with other editors, but for now, the integrity of your edits have clearly made a leap forward. Hiberniantears 12:31, 27 May 2007 (UTC)

I've never been a bad editor (ehem ehem) - only a "bad boy" :)

Cheers. Flavius Belisarius 13:32, 27 May 2007 (UTC)

Turkish Air Force

An anon user deleting some material from article.I asked him for reason, no reply.Is it possible what is going in article, I have no any background on these equipments/aircrafts.Regards.Must.^{T C} 18:52, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

Merhaba

Şu web adresinde silahlar hakkında bilgiler var. turkish_pistols, [ http://www.pmulcahy.com/ Main page]. İlgini çekebilir.Kolay gelsin.Must.^{T C} 10:41, 1 June 2007 (UTC)

Çok sağol, bir göz atarım şimdi :) Flavius Belisarius 21:34, 1 June 2007 (UTC)

Istanbul->İstanbul

What is your idea for; Istanbul-->İstanbul. Is it ok.?Must.^{T C} 12:50, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

I think Istanbul is better, because the I at the beginning and l at the end look symmetrical.

Like a heavy metal band's logo :) Flavius Belisarius 16:51, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

What about AnkarA.:)Must.^{T C} 17:04, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

Can you take a look at here.Must.^{T C} 17:06, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

MetallicA :) Flavius Belisarius 17:06, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

take a .

Take a look please. Admin user open a nomination for me, due to Genocide, Unofficial Capital etc. I put my immediate reply there and I will improve later. Due to my languae level I may need help.Regards.Must.^{T C} 22:07, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

O.K. :)

Mosquitoes are everywhere, and they will always come back no matter how much you spray.

Take care bro :) Flavius Belisarius 22:12, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

Duplicate images uploaded

Thanks for uploading Image:Mahmudiye (1829).jpg. A machine-controlled robot account noticed that you also uploaded the same image under the name Image:Mahmudiye (1829) was the world's largest warship for many decades.jpg. The copy called Image:Mahmudiye (1829) was the world's largest warship for many decades.jpg has been marked for speedy deletion since it is redundant. If this sounds okay to you, there is no need for you to take any action.

This is an automated message- you have not upset or annoyed anyone, and you do not need to respond. In the future, you may save yourself some confusion if you supply a meaningful file name and refer to 'my contributions' to remind yourself exactly which name you chose (file names are case sensitive, including the extension) so that you won't lose track of your uploads. For tips on good file naming, see Wikipedia's image use policy. If you have any questions about this notice, or feel that the deletion is inappropriate, please contact User:Staecker, who operates the robot account. Staeckerbot 20:47, 9 June 2007 (UTC)

Ottoman Empire

I saw you are writing a new history based on the Turkish military!! However there is already established pages for the military history during the Ottoman Empire. Are you going to nominate Ottoman military for the deletion? Because If you create Turkish military people will think these are two different things. My solution was to create [1]] and also [2] which will cover all Turkish military history based on time periods. --Anglepush 23:04, 9 June 2007 (UTC)

I wrote every single word and date on those articles and timeline tables, and created every single Turkish admiral article using Turkish and Italian archives.

My latest additions are according to the additional info that I found in this link:

http://www.dzkk.tsk.mil.tr/turkce/tarihiMiras.asp?strAnaFrame=TarihiMiras&strIFrame=INDEX

Regards. Flavius Belisarius 23:07, 9 June 2007 (UTC)

I do not understand why you responded like that. This does not answer the problem in hand. I can find a link that tells world military history in a single page. The Turkish military has many periods. It is better to organize them in periods. I was just asking question and trying to exchange opinion. I guess you do not work like that. It is very negative. I was hoping to find a friendly answer. I will not ask anymore. Besides you do not own the articles, or are you?? Regards. --Anglepush 23:15, 9 June 2007 (UTC)

I don't. But as the only person who wrote every single word, comma, phrase and date in those articles and timetables, and made the painstaking research in order to fulfill this, I at least deserve a more respectful approach than your first message.

Regards. Flavius Belisarius 23:19, 9 June 2007 (UTC)

By the way, Turkey was called "Turkey" even in the 19th century (actually at least since the 15th century), if you check out the texts of old treaties, or even historic caricatures on Punch magazine. "Turkey" only became a "republic" in 1923. The name "Turkey" wasn't invented in 1923.

Therefore, "Turkey" even covers the treaties of the Ottoman period (some of which Turkey still recognizes).

Regards. Flavius Belisarius 23:24, 9 June 2007 (UTC)

I do not get it; are you claiming that you are here to get "respect?" Do you expect us to use the words "Pasha" or "Commander" when we talk to you? And not voice any opinion?? One for sure I did not threaten you and I had no idea who you were before I got the response. Yes! I did not used the word Pasha in my message but I also have no idea how this communication turned into this ugly form.

you are rude to claim that I do not know anything about military history and ignore the fact that I'm only interested in integration of the already developed content. You need to think about that. Regards. Anglepush 23:32, 9 June 2007 (UTC)

Eat some chocolate :) Flavius Belisarius 23:33, 9 June 2007 (UTC)

The issue is not about the word Turkey or Turkish. All this is about Turkey and Turkish. And you just can not get the idea that it is about improving the Turkish history but NOT pissing off the people or ignoring their "a valid points" (use the periods so that previous articles can be integrated more effectively). How old are you? You can not be old enough. This is all waste of time. You wasted my time. Regards.--Anglepush 23:51, 9 June 2007 (UTC)

And you wasted my private message space. Flavius Belisarius 23:55, 9 June 2007 (UTC)

Two things...

Hi. Two things: I just happened to see your upload Image:Mahmudiye (1829).jpg. I think the claim you make there, of it having been 201m long, must be off by a factor of about three. According to other articles, the largest ship of that sort ever built was French ship Valmy with 64 m, 120 guns, in 1836. A normal three-decker like HMS Victory was 57 m. Error of meters/feet conversion? Also, just look at the image and measure its proportions. If that thing is 200 m long, then each of the gun decks must be 5-6 meters high!

Also, regarding your additions to Names of Istanbul, I find these far too long (and, at first sight, heavily POV). We don't want a POV fork of a "history of Istanbul" article there. Can you please shorten it? I'm largely inactive these days and don't have much time dealing with it. Fut.Perf. ☼ 04:51, 11 June 2007 (UTC)

You're right, I checked it out and it's 62x17x7m Flavius Belisarius 05:18, 11 June 2007 (UTC)

Source of the error (they gave feet as meters):

http://www.hafif.org/yazi/efsunlu-gemi-mahmudiye-kalyonu

http://dilberimmm.blogcu.com/1603242

Correct information:

http://www.dzkk.tsk.mil.tr/muze/English/Koleksiyon/Gemi/Orta.htm

Regards. Flavius Belisarius 05:33, 11 June 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for the quick reaction! --Fut.Perf. ☼ 07:05, 11 June 2007 (UTC)

Pictures

I was wondering if you can balance the amount of images that you added to the Ottoman Empire page. It is very hard to read the content after you added left and right aligned images; the number of images is tripled. I use an old PC, these image sizes makes the text impossible to follow. With every image, I have to scroll down a huge amount. I'm sure you value the content. Some of these valuable images can be integrated to the articles that explains these topics in detail. It would be enough to have a link from the main page to these articles, as many users use these links. Thanks for your efforts. --OttomanReference 20:21, 11 June 2007 (UTC)

I was wondering, if it is possible to tell us what you want to do with the Ottoman Empire page. Your edit turned the article into a catalog of pictures(some are irrelevant to topic). The wikipedia articles are not catalogs of pictures. There is a (another) project that you can develop catalog of pictures, if you are interested I can help you. The Ottoman Empire page is a "good article" for a long time. If it is possible, please, just for the betterment of the Turkish related articles, do not engage edit wars and communicate with other editors. Thnks. --OttomanReference 22:30, 12 June 2007 (UTC)

I added very few pictures, all of which fall within the topics in terms of dates (e.g. the Battle of Zonchio falls within the topic year (Rise of the Ottoman Empire, 1453-1566), the Battle of Mohacs falls within the topic year, etc.)

Better than the humiliating picture of British occupation forces in Istanbul which you added (and without my image description, you didn't even know that it was the port of Karaköy and not a train station).

Regards. Flavius Belisarius 19:36, 13 June 2007 (UTC)

You do not have to insult "me" in your responses. The occupation of Istanbul is a major event. The history is about facts, not propaganda. The "military and political" history of every period has its own page. Don't you think you should add your images to the period articles. Thanks --OttomanReference 22:01, 13 June 2007 (UTC)

And when did I insult you? Flavius Belisarius 22:02, 13 June 2007 (UTC)

First and most, do not think anyone who talks to you is at your level (Flavius Belisarius says "and without my image description, you didn't even know"). That is not true. There is a big difference between a trivia and fact which shapes an event. I'm not against neither you or anyone else adding bits and pieces. However, there is a concept of quality, which is universal and applied to differentiate between good and bad writing. You added the picture with the text "King Charles XII of Sweden escaped to the Ottoman Empire.." this is a trivia for the main page. However, it would be totally cool if you have added the same information under the Stagnation of the Ottoman Empire. You do not make such judgments. Also, you performed this deletion [3] which you claim that the incomplete list is not worth to keep and with your own words "you should have helped us Turks in paying the Ottoman debts." It is an important quality of the Ottoman Empire that many nations emerged under it. Telling this information improves the quality of the article. However, you claim that Republic of Turkey is the only one to keep in this list. And with your misinformed knowledge, you claim that Republic of Turkey is the sole dept payer. This information is wrong. Ottoman dept was distributed based on the region and what ever nation occupied that region. Ismet Inonu worked hard not to become the sole dept payer, or even they argued; "Republic should not pay anything". But only way to recognition was passing from taking over some part of the dept. YOU need to understand that people that talk to you are talking with good faith. That does not make them stupid. Thnks. --OttomanReference 22:46, 13 June 2007 (UTC)

If you list only 10 countries in the infobox, it will give the wrong impression to Joe Average that 10 countries succeeded the Ottoman Empire, which is not true. The real figure is close to 40, but if we add all of them, the infobox will have to go way way way down. Therefore, it's better not to do it.

Besides, where were they when Turkey payed for the Ottoman debts (again)?

It was Turkey which inherited the Ottoman institutions, surviving Ottoman military hardware, and yes, the Ottoman debts.

Because Turkey is the only legal successor state. Actually the Ottoman Empire itself was called "Turkey".

Regards. Flavius Belisarius 23:09, 13 June 2007 (UTC)

• Ottoman dept was distributed based on the region and what ever nation occupied that region.

This is hilarious. You obviously never read the Sevres and Lausanne treaties.

And how much debt (it's debt by the way, not dept) did the Arab states pay?

Here's the answer: ZERO.

Flavius Belisarius 23:13, 13 June 2007 (UTC)

I do not know how to respond to you. It seems nothing is passing to you. Generally people approach cautiously and try to learn. Especially when someone points out a factual problem in their thinking. You do not. I'm telling you; "you are wrong." You were wrong to delete the list. You are wrong regarding the dept. You even use "Sevres" as an argument (Giving the fact that "Sevres" was keeping the Ottoman Empire (Sultan), and does not include the issue of who is going to own the dept) that does not hold reality to defend your position. This behavior is very troublesome. I do not know how to communicate to you, and this is not something that you can be proud of. Thanks. --OttomanReference 23:37, 13 June 2007 (UTC)

Look! You messed up the Istanbul, page. You claimed that you will make Istanbul a featured article, but you could not even pass it from Good Article stage. I'm still waiting for you to make that article a Featured Article. I guess you give it up that goal and moving forward to mess up articles that even passed Good Article level. --OttomanReference 23:43, 13 June 2007 (UTC)

Mr. Reference, could you please show me a reference on the Ottoman debts payed by countries other than Turkey?

I am eagerly waiting, knowing that you can't :)

I apologize if I shattered your Ottomanist feelings :)

Regards. Flavius Belisarius 23:46, 13 June 2007 (UTC)

As for the Istanbul article, it was full of grammar errors and devoid of facts before I contributed.

But I don't expect a person like you to accept this (the difference between you and me is that when you see the picture of the port of Karaköy, you think it's a train station. I, on the other hand, can even tell you the architect and construction date of the Türkiye Denizcilik İşletmeleri Building in the background. I know almost every single famous building in Istanbul, memorized in my mind, including their architects and construction dates.)

Regards. Flavius Belisarius 23:51, 13 June 2007 (UTC)

Did you finish your edits with the Istanbul page? Because I did not see you improving the article in the improvement scale. There will be a lot of people who will give you positive feedback to improve that article, if you have guts to do it. I think, I gave my best shot with you, and it went to no-where. It is easy to go to an article and add your opinions Flavius Belisarius. But it is not that easy to get approval that your editions are improvements (pass through FA stages). It is also not an achivement to turn an article into a propaganda material. Look at Armenian Genocide page. What is the difference between your edits at Istanbul and this page. People simple do not read it Thanks --OttomanReference 23:58, 13 June 2007 (UTC)

I hope you can cure your complexes one day. Flavius Belisarius 23:59, 13 June 2007 (UTC)

BTW, the only really "unreadable" article that I know is the Atatürk article, thanks to your grammar skills. Flavius Belisarius 00:03, 14 June 2007 (UTC)

Before attacking at me (by the way the Ottoman Empire is GA), just look at yourself. It is a failure on your side that you can not bring the Istanbul FA status. What does it say say about yourself. Thanks --OttomanReference 00:07, 14 June 2007 (UTC)

I didn't know I had such a duty - LOL :)

Anyway, I am certain that I know many things about Istanbul that you don't. At least I can tell the port of Karaköy when I see it, while you think it's a train station. That's the difference between us. Flavius Belisarius 00:15, 14 June 2007 (UTC)

This is not about me putting you down. This not about how far you can pee. However, you can tell about the color of the stones in Istanbul, a lot of trivia, but that does not make it good. Do you have the guts to ask people and learn what they think on something that you spend hours to create (see the history of Istanbul page). I think you are scared to face the fact that it is not a good article. That is what I think, no depth in the content. You are doing the something with the Ottoman Empire page. And most disturbing thing is that you perceive me (people that talk to you) as enemies. OttomanReference 00:34, 14 June 2007 (UTC)

After seeing your great success in the Atatürk article and witnessing how people protested you for it, I really don't care about your opinions, to tell the truth. If you remove the content that I added to Istanbul, 3/4 of the article will disappear. Feel free to add anything new if it ever comes to your mind. Noone is stopping you. I don't own any articles. I may, however, correct your grammar errors. Or description errors (e.g. Karaköy port and train station). Flavius Belisarius 00:41, 14 June 2007 (UTC)

This is not about me! Do you have the gut to carry Istanbul to FA status. I promise, I will not be part of this process. I can turn that thing into a hell to you. You say: "the content that I added to Istanbul." No one is denying that you added bunch of text. The question is: did it become a "better" article. There is a universal way to judge. Ask other people. That is where the "quality" comes from, writing an article that other people find things which they are interested in (not just interesting to you). I'm sure you can not handle criticisms that will arise from this process. You can not handle my points, which I'm only against how you do it. Also be true to yourself. You say "I don't own any articles." that is not true. You have been banned, your sockets have been banned, but here today you try to continue to add/delete information to Istanbul. That is the perfect description of owning an article. I wish you have gut to take it to peer review and try to cover what other positions will arrive to your face. Thanks. --OttomanReference 17:54, 14 June 2007 (UTC)

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Crusade of Nicopolis

Don't make me laugh - are you saying these are in Italian: ?

http://www.theottomans.org/turkce/osmanli_ordu/savaslar2.asp http://www.dallog.com/savaslar/nigbolu.htm

Only three websites are used and none are in English so they are in fact quite useless for analysis if you only speak English as a European Language. You see my friend, I have nothing against you or Turkish or Italian, I have something against using sources that are inacessible linguistically speaking, and being Turkic will no doubt have some bias, its almost unavoidable. English sources meanwhile won't be as much (Hungarian might, nothing personal) but you might find that your horizons of knowledge and pool of resources will instantly become greater when you realize that 2 out of 3 websites are not in Italian. Please be, what was it you said, more polyglot?

Anyways, now that my blood has cooled down, and apologies if the above seemed personal - on to the main point. I wish to adjust the article to include those sources:

• Philip Sherrard, Great Ages of Man Byzantium, Time-Life Books
• Madden, Thomas F. Crusades the Illustrated History. 1st ed. Ann Arbor: University of Michigan P, 2005
• Parker, Geoffrey. Compact History of the World. 4th ed. London: Times Books, 2005
• Mango, Cyril. The Oxford History of Byzantium. 1st ed. New York: Oxford UP, 2002
• Grant, R G. Battle a Visual Journey Through 5000 Years of Combat. London: Dorling Kindersley, 2005

Because I believe that they are more reliable because as you can imagine, it takes greater professionalism to write a book by Oxford or by Dorling Kindersley then it is to write a website.

Let me know if you have a supported objection, else I intend to do what you intend to do - improve the article. Good day!Tourskin 09:53, 16 June 2007 (UTC)

Please do so :) Flavius Belisarius 13:21, 16 June 2007 (UTC)

Hi, maybe this[4] (see also p. 352) can help a little for the troop numbers. Lysandros 00:52, 19 June 2007 (UTC)

Those figures (like 200,000) are grossly exaggerated. Even Napoleon seldomly commanded such a large army, centuries later. Moving 200,000 troops would also be a logistic disaster. Most Turkish resources put the Ottoman Army figure at 60,000.

The losing side (i.e. the French knights who returned back home) obviously attempted to save face by exaggerating the number of the Ottomans.

Modern resources actually further reduce the numbers, to the level of 20,000 - never mind 200,000. Flavius Belisarius 01:01, 19 June 2007 (UTC)

You misunderstood me, i do not support the number of 200,000. If you look at the p. 352[5], you can see many other estimations, including modern ones. Lysandros 09:50, 19 June 2007 (UTC)

Good find. Let's add these data to the existing ones, but among so many estimates, which ones should we choose for the infobox? Perhaps it's better to write "possibly between 20,000 to 120,000" and give the resources. It's almost impossible to find a real figure as both sides have attempted to exaggerate the numbers of the adversary and minimize their own, in order to add some value into their deeds and heroism in the battle. In other words, medieval myths. Flavius Belisarius 12:04, 19 June 2007 (UTC)

Battle of Preveza

Can you please take one good look at this article and make sure that its correct because the following book:

Turnbull, Stephen. The Ottoman Empire 1326 - 1699. New York: Osprey, 2003.

On page 52 says that the battle was indecisive. Furthermoore, there are numbers with out citations and no references or citations to cover anything. I find it hard to imagine how 300 Christian ships could lose to 130 Ottoman ships, particularly following Charles V's victory at Tunis. I know you already had a look. Thanks, much appreciated.Tourskin 16:07, 18 June 2007 (UTC)

Reason why I ask is cos I'm working of Ottoman-Habsburg wars. Feel free to lend a hand.

Actually now I found alot of websites loosley saying that a victory for teh Ottomans did happen but I wonder whether the just copied Wikipedia, some of which do so.Tourskin 16:10, 18 June 2007 (UTC)

Even the Italians accept Preveza as a major defeat (I'm living in Italy) and you can actually check it out from Encyclopedia Britannica if you want.

As someone who has access to Italian marine archives (I wrote most of the articles regarding Turkish admirals using Italian sources, as you may have noticed) I have to tell you that such "general" books regarding the Ottoman Empire in English (e.g. Ottoman Centuries: The Rise and Fall of the Turkish Empire by Lord Kinross) usually have very few or no details at all regarding the statistics of such battles. You should also bear in mind that history is largely a narration, and the losing side always tries to cover the defeat story with details which might make the defeat seem like a partial victory instead (a bit like the football coach of a losing team at the press conference after the game) so I don't expect topics like the Battle of Nicopolis (1396) or Preveza (1538) to be among the favourites of Christian Europe. Europeans have always prefered to paint the pictures of Lepanto (1571) and Battle of Vienna (1683-99) instead.

And naturally so.

Regards. Flavius Belisarius 17:08, 18 June 2007 (UTC)

Thanks. I'll keep in mind that we like to win. Especially me. I never knew about Otranto in 1480 until less than a year ago. So much for British High School Education. Thanks again.Tourskin 18:31, 19 June 2007 (UTC)

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Ottoman Empire - shorth lived possessions

Hello Flavius Belisarius. I see you have reverted my edits to the article Ottoman Empire, regarding the statement about "temporary acquisitions like those of Lanzarote (1585), Madeira (1617), Vestmannaeyjar (1627) and Lundy (1655)", saying that "in 1585 Lanzarote was taken, including its governor who was later ransomed. Lundy remained under Ottoman control for 5 years between 1655 and 1660. Vestmannaeyjar was held for only 26 days though.)" Ok. And what about Madeira? I have never heard of such temporary acquisition (of course that can be my ignorance...)! Could you tell me some more on the story? And source it? Meanwhile, and given your rationale for the revert, I believe it would be better in the artcile to call it temporary occupations. I'm doimg so. And also tagging Madeira for a source. Thank you and looking forward to hearing from you! The Ogre 13:13, 3 July 2007 (UTC)

There you go (from the official website of the Turkish Navy)

http://www.dzkk.tsk.mil.tr/TURKCE/TarihiMiras/AtlantikteTurkDenizciligi.asp

The source is the book of Admiral Büyüktuğrul, who cites a letter written by the British Ambassador in Spain, Sir Francis Toone, to the Duke of Buckingham that in 1616 the Turks landed on the coastline between Cadiz and Lisbon, and landed on Madeira in 1617.

Flavius Belisarius 03:11, 4 July 2007 (UTC)

Please Flavius Belisarius, let us continue this talk at Talk:Ottoman_Empire#Ottoman_Empire_-_shorth_lived_possessions. Thanks. The Ogre 13:40, 4 July 2007 (UTC)

Hı Flavius, there is these hard line greek nationalısts pushing theır POV relentlessly in a kurdish related article, and there is only me and Garnett who are reverting theır edits, can you come and help to revert them when you have some time?

[[6]]--laertes d 14:43, 5 July 2007 (UTC)

Sure bro :)

Flavius Belisarius 04:37, 6 July 2007 (UTC)

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Anadol

Have you read Wikipedia's policy on the inclusion of non-free content yet? MER-C 10:24, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

A company which does not exist for decades will not sue Wikipedia for its images. Flavius Belisarius 10:26, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

Regardless, all non-free images MUST comply with the policy. It is non-negotiable. MER-C 10:28, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

Image sources and fair use rationales added. Flavius Belisarius 12:42, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

To the detail specified at Wikipedia:Fair use rationale guideline? Note that galleries of fair use images are expressly forbidden by WP:NFCC #3a. As for Anadol A1 advertisement x.jpg, they are corrupt images.MER-C 12:59, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

They are extremely small images, barely viewable, which belong to a company that no longer exists.

And the source is explicitly shown. Flavius Belisarius 13:01, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

Are you sure you even need fair use images? Your rationales need to address how replaceable the images are and what purpose the images serve. Note that I found these images, whose licensing allows them to be uploaded to Wikipedia. Also, if these cars are still on the road, are you able to photograph one and upload the photo to Wikipedia? If so, you don't need a fair use image. MER-C 13:16, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

Executions on Hat Law

You know it very well that many were executed for not wearing hat. OnurtheAgha 13:10, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

I knew the Islamists love to create myths for bashing Atatürk, but this is way beyond hilarious. Flavius Belisarius 13:34, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

You can't hide the truth by continually saying 'this is hilarius'. You know he ordered to kill masses for his secular regime but you do not accept this for the reasons I do not know. OnurtheAgha 13:50, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

Islamist brains are like rotten chestnuts, therefore I don't expect you to think otherwise.

But the information you are spreading on most articles are simply untrue myths.

Islamists are also trying to brand Demokrat Parti as "anti Kemalism" which is not true.

Two of my family members were in DP (one was the Deputy Prime Minister, other was an MP) and they were both die hard Kemalists.

Islamists today are trying to create the myth that DP was Islamist.

In reality, no such concept/ideology existed back then.

So keep DP out of your sick rhetoric.

Last but not least: I feel great pleasure in informing you that my great-grandfather, who was the commander of the Turkish forces in Yemen during WWI, was also the commander who put down the Sheikh Said Revolt. There's an avenue in Istanbul for his name just because of this. Flavius Belisarius 14:00, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

Why do you keep on saying 'myths' about things you do not want to accept? Is this a tradition in Kemalist Ideology? OnurtheAgha 14:12, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

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Orphaned non-free image (Image:Anadol STC-16 2.jpg)

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Orphaned non-free image (Image:Anadol STC-16 5.jpg)

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Orphaned non-free image (Image:Anadol STC-16 6.jpg)

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Orphaned non-free image (Image:Anadol STC-16 7.jpg)

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Orphaned non-free image (Image:Anadol STC-16 8.jpg)

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Orphaned non-free image (Image:Anadol STC-16 9.jpg)

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Allom Bosphorus

Thankyou for adding and correcting the details for Image:Allum Bosphorus.jpg (which I had written down and then misplaced). (I don't understand why you moved it to the bottom of Bosporus in favour of low-quality photos of two current bridges.) Srnec 23:53, 12 July 2007 (UTC)

Since it's a historic image from the Ottoman period, I moved it to the "Ancient Greece, Byzantine Empire and Ottoman Empire" section. Flavius Belisarius 00:23, 13 July 2007 (UTC)

Replaceable fair use Image:BEKO_plasma_HD_TV.jpg

Replaceable fair use

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Replaceable fair use Image:General_Faruk_Cömert.jpg

Replaceable fair use

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Replaceable fair use Image:Galatasaray_Lisesi_Istanbul.jpg

Replaceable fair use

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The "replaceable" image was taken from a zeppelin hired by Galatasaray Lisesi, so I don't think it can easily be replaced. Technically, yes, it's possible. Effectively, I don't think so. Unless someone is rich enough to hire a zeppelin, then have it fly over Galatasaray Lisesi, just to take a photo which is already available in the school's official website. Flavius Belisarius 23:32, 20 July 2007 (UTC)

It fails Wikipedia:Non-free content criteria. I deleted the image again, if you want the image restored, do not upload it again but take it to Wikipedia:Deletion review. Garion96 (talk) 23:55, 20 July 2007 (UTC)

Hi!

Nice work with the figures for the Armenian Genocide. One thing I wanted to caution you about was the use of "Armenian" as an ethnic identifier for the assertion of the dead as "upwards of 1 million". I know what you're saying, and I find it to be relevant and helpful, but this "Armenian" might better be rendered as "the Armenian state", or "Armenian-sympathetic sources" (the article you reference notes "some Armenians" for one of the figures); otherwise we risk rendering the opinion as somehow ethnically approved, as though there could be uniformity of opinion where there is uniformity of ancestry. Know what I mean? Same problem as stating that "Turks say X", when the Turkish people exist, perceive, think and speak as individuals.

I hope you find more time for the article, you seem like precisely what the article needs. I'm quite sick of it myself, at this point. DBaba 19:22, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

Some Armenian sources are from the diaspora though (such as Aram Andonian) therefore it's not simply the "Armenian state's" resources. That would be a narrow definition which doesn't encompass the wider reality. Flavius Belisarius 19:26, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

Brother, you responded so quickly. I already furnished you with two solutions to that objection in my original message, which you may have overlooked. I find your work on the opening to have made the article unreadable, and your response here isn't really addressing my concern that what you've contributed reflects the view that ethnic "Armenians" somehow have their own sources, apart from people like Toynbee. You seemed to bend the opening to a passive-aggressive attack on ethnic Armenians, while drawing out the article's first sentence to nearly 80 words. What's more, did you notice, you didn't actually change what the sentence was already saying.

Hi

Hi Flavius, when you have some time can you check this article please, Alexiuscomnenus is alwasy making the same POV edits, for instance he is changing already existing "turkish massacres of christians" section to "Turkish policy of massacring christians" and also spends utmost efforts to make the massacres committed by Greeks against Turkish civilians as invisible as possible..there isn't much person in there to protect the article against such POV edits..--laertes d 16:04, 23 July 2007 (UTC)

I'm not going to participate in a revert war with you. I'll deliver these comments to the talk page, for others to discuss.DBaba 20:30, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

Sorry, but your "comments" are merely your "opinions" and are not true. Flavius Belisarius 20:32, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

Do you know who Flavor Flav is? If not, you should. That man's funny.DBaba 20:52, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

The Greco-Turkish War of 1919-1922

Hi Flavius, when you have some time can you check this article please, Alexiuscomnenus is alwasy making the same POV edits, for instance he is changing already existing "turkish massacres of christians" section to "Turkish policy of massacring christians" and also spends utmost efforts to make the massacres committed by Greeks against Turkish civilians as invisible as possible..there isn't much person in there to protect the article against such POV edits..regards..--laertes d 16:04, 23 July 2007 (UTC)

Sure bro. Flavius Belisarius 21:28, 23 July 2007 (UTC)

Orphaned non-free image (Image:Galatasaray New Stadium.jpg)

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Orphaned non-free image (Image:Galatasaray new stadium 1.jpg)

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Orphaned non-free image (Image:Galatasaray new stadium 2.jpg)

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Orphaned non-free image (Image:Galatasaray new stadium 3.jpg)

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Orphaned non-free image (Image:Galatasaray new stadium 4.jpg)

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Orphaned non-free image (Image:Galatasaray new stadium 5.jpg)

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Turkish Army

Dear Flavius, noticed the edits you did after I split away the equipment list. Couple of minor queries; do you want to remove the equipment page from the template if you want to keep the eq list in the main page? And what's your reasoning for changing the title of the branches section back to 'Branch Insignia' when there are no insignias shown? Cheers, Buckshot06 05:34, 26 July 2007 (UTC)

1. Because I believe that all branches of the Turkish Armed Forces should have a common format, and all of them contain an inventory list at the bottom of their main page.

2. The inventory link which you added to the template at right is completely invisible among the "red links". Noone will click on it.

Flavius Belisarius 21:31, 26 July 2007 (UTC)

3RR

• You are in violation of The Three Revert Rule in the Ottoman Armenian casualties page, and have been warned accordingly. VartanM 04:38, 29 July 2007 (UTC)

Is it because I am writing the inconvenient truth?

Or is it because I am destroying an important chain of the Armenian propaganda machine, which aims to extend the events until 1923 in order to create a non-existant link with the present-day Republic of Turkey?

I can only assure you this: I am not leaving. Flavius Belisarius 04:43, 29 July 2007 (UTC)