Talk:Ottoman Empire

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Former good article Ottoman Empire was one of the good articles, but it has been removed from the list. There are suggestions below for improving the article to meet the good article criteria. Once these issues have been addressed, the article can be renominated. Editors may also seek a reassessment of the decision if they believe there was a mistake.


THE MAP[edit]

The map can not disclude YEMEN, since Yemen Eyalet and Yemen Vilayet has been a part of Ottomans until the end of empire. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.44.9.189 (talk) 21:53, 2 December 2016 (UTC)

The Ottoman Empire lost control of Yemen in 1636 and did not regain it until the 19th century. Chamboz (talk) 22:24, 2 December 2016 (UTC)

It still makes 179 years control, isn't 179 years sufficient to show it on the map ? --92.44.9.189 (talk) 00:21, 5 December 2016 (UTC)

That logic doesn't work on its own. For example, the empire lost Yemen in 1636, but gained Crete in 1645. It held Crete for over 300 years, much longer than it held Yemen. Why should Yemen be privileged over Crete? And we can't use a map that shows both, because they weren't both held at the same time until the 19th century. Chamboz (talk) 00:48, 5 December 2016 (UTC)

Then isn't it better if we use the older map which clearly shows all the territories with their conquest time ? --193.255.135.1 (talk) 16:00, 6 December 2016 (UTC)

The problem is that the older map is full of errors, so the consensus is not to use it. Chamboz (talk) 16:11, 6 December 2016 (UTC)

Ottoman empire.svg

, This detailed map doesn't look like having errors. Thanks. --92.44.9.189 (talk) 19:04, 6 December 2016 (UTC)

I was referring to a different map which used to be used, this one is somewhat better but still problematic. Just some examples: it gives totally wrong dates for the conquests in Iran and North Africa, shows the coasts of Arabia with the wrong color, doesn't depict direct Ottoman control over the southern cities of the Crimea, wrongly depicts all of Bosnia as Ottoman in 1481, and has numerous other mistakes in Ottoman Hungary. More importantly, it doesn't depict the full extent of the empire to the west and south, leaving out Algeria and Yemen. Ultimately it's just an anachronistic map. No one can look at this map and get an accurate picture of what the empire looked like at any single point in time. The current 1683 map at least gives people a definitive look at what the empire's borders were in a particular year, and doesn't have any errors (to my knowledge). Chamboz (talk) 19:40, 6 December 2016 (UTC)

The map should have all of the once conquered lands. Not just the greatest extend in Europe witch makes it confusing and shows a lot of missing parts in Asia/Middle east. The current new one shows perfectly the times it was once (wheter several year or centuries) conquered and under witch Sultans rule MAMODIVIC (talk) 14:50, 14 December 2016 (UTC)

The current map is better then the one before it. It atleast shows the once captured lands and by witch Sultans. Indeed, there are some innacurate things in it however, till now all maps had innacurate things. I think that there needs to be done more work on the current one like fixing the parts of Podolia and Yemen (as that was captured later again as well). MAMODIVIC (talk) 15:49, 14 December 2016 (UTC)

The Latest Map[edit]

The current map clearly has an ulterior motive, Ottomans had control over Yemen, Western Iran, Azerbaijan, Dagestan, parts of Sudan, and the Gulf Arabia which all lacks on the insisted 1683 Map, maybe they all entered under control in different times okay, but it's like showing the Byzantine Empire in 1452 in it's main map, people insisting on changing the map clearly has a hidden agenda, i will be reporting this on wikipedia administrators immediately.--176.232.93.45 (talk) 14:08, 2 February 2017 (UTC)

Found a far more accurate map, please do not change it. Thank you. --176.232.93.45 (talk) 14:14, 2 February 2017 (UTC)

Perhaps we must acknowledge the "4th dimension" known as time. Clearly, there can be no "map of the ottoman empire", or indeed of any empire which changed borders over it's existence... Perhaps a GIF, or some kind of interactive map with the ability to change the date?

In the meantime, a simpler solution would be to simply show more than one map. As I said, there can be no one, single, "THE map of the ottoman empire". Not in a conventional sense, anyway...

                       ...there Are a few ways to make it work "good enough", if you are for some reason against having: A) multiple maps, one for each territorial gain/loss/both, or B) an interactive map, or C) a gif;

If the border changes are minimal, you can show a single map, using dotted lines as the borders of gained/lost territories, and use a small notation stating the date and whether it was gained or lost territories.

For the Ottoman empire, this may not be the best choice, however... Let's see what else we can think of... I've seen maps that are specifically titled "Map of all the lands that were ever a part of the XXXXXX Empire" , showing, as you may have suspected, all of the territories Ever owned by the empire in question. Then perhaps you might have a map Legend, or some other area off to the side used for helpful and useful information, listing some dates and stuff regarding the conquests and whatnot.

Another option would be to have a map titled "XXXXX Empire in the year ____ (the time when it was at it's largest)", which would show the empire whenever it had the most land. It's understood that this map will not necessarily show every piece of territory ever part of the empire, but is a "snapshot" of the empire at a specific year/date or range of years/dates in which the borders of the empire did not change, and this specific timeframe is understood to be that in which the empire in question held the greatest amount of territory.

There are also a few different ways you can alter this concept. You can have different definitions for "the empire at its greatest". Instead of simply "square mileage of territory owned", you could try "the time at which the empire ruled the most people", since some nations, like the modern Russian Federation, are vast in their territorial exlanse, whereas modern day China, while not nearly as large as Russia, has a much, much greater population. So, which is the greater accomplishment? Conquering the most land? Or the most people?

The empire at the time it had the most territory may not look the same as the empire at the time it had the most people.

Or what about the most resources? They most money, wealth, value? Or the time when the empire, the WHOLE empire, including the common people(its up to you if you include slaves, foreigners, prisoners or other "non-citizens" staying within the borders of the empire), was the most prosperous?

Anyway, If a single map is used rather than a series of maps showing the progression of the empires gains and losses, then, the reason for choosing that map over others should be obvious, or otherwise should be explained in an indirect way via captioning or titling of said map.

Now that I've said my piece, given my two cents, or at least As much of it As I care to give (frankly i feel I've devoted a more than adequate/reasonable/deserved amount of time to this matter), I'll leave it to you fine ladies and gentlemen. Enigmato (talk) 00:39, 26 June 2017 (UTC)

We had this discussion back in October and November last year (by the way, I just realized the archives for this talk page are not in order for some inexplicable reason). Consensus was that having more than one map in the infobox would be too much. The option of having an animated map (which there is precedent for over at Mongol Empire) was also brought up. The end result of the discussion was that the 1683 map currently used was chosen for inclusion in the infobox. TompaDompa (talk) 02:14, 26 June 2017 (UTC)

Legacy section?[edit]

I see a lot of wikipedia pages have a section for the legacy of the subject. Or, I believe I have seen other similar headings for similar sections.

Anyway, my point is, I cannot believe there is not a Single mention of the "Ottoman-style sofa/couch" or sometimes called simply an "Ottoman". Is this another one of those things where we pretend like certain connections don't exist? There's not even an ambiguation link at the top of the page! Enigmato (talk) 22:50, 25 June 2017 (UTC)

Ottomans and Turkish identity[edit]

IP user(s) from Iran: it seems you still haven't bothered to read the section you're trying to expand. The second paragraph already covers the use of the term Turk. This is the most high-level article about the Ottoman empire. Aside from the redundancy of the added content, expanding on these details here any further is undue. Eperoton (talk) 17:39, 2 July 2017 (UTC)

it is additional info about how ottomans used the term "turk". the current text above my new section says:"The Turkish word for "Ottoman" (Osmanlı) originally referred to the tribal followers of Osman in the fourteenth century, and subsequently came to be used to refer to the empire's military-administrative elite. In contrast, the term "Turk" (Türk) was used to refer to the Anatolian peasant and tribal population, and was seen as a disparaging term when applied to urban, educated individuals." and my text says:"As a sophisticated ruling class, the Ottomans looked down upon the Turkish peasantry, calling them Eşek Turk (the donkey Turk) and Kaba Turk (stupid Turk). Expressions like "Turk-head" and "Turk-person" were contemptuously used by Ottomans when they wanted to denigrate each other." neither redundant nor already covered. 3 legit books and direct quote. what's your problem??? if the new section is your problem, i'll remove it and move the whole paragaraph to above section. and you can't delete it because you don't like it. and remember this is not your article. you don't own it. everyone can edit it. avoid using false edit summaries. good that you have realized your mistake and opened this discussion.nothing is wrong about my addition.188.158.115.255 (talk) 03:36, 3 July 2017 (UTC)
First, please see WP:ONUS. Just because something appears in a book, doesn't mean we have to include it here. You need to convince others that its inclusion improves the article. The section is called "Name" and not "Name calling", and it is about the name of the Ottoman empire. Class consciousness, the range of uses of the word "Turk" by various groups, Turkish identity, and ethnic identity of the Ottoman elites (the non-anachronistic variant of the previous topic) are all different subjects, which belong elsewhere. The relevant part of your addition -- the derogatory connotations and use of the term "Turk" among Ottoman elites -- was already covered, and is redundant. The rest of your addition doesn't reflect how the body of RSs treat the subject of this section; rather, it reflects a Google search for books containing the phrase "donkey Turk", and the inventory of insults cobbled together from them is out of place here. We can include an example, following discussions of the topic in some of the relevant sources, but the rest is plainly undue. Eperoton (talk) 00:25, 4 July 2017 (UTC)
Just chiming in to say that I am in complete agreement with Eperoton here. Chamboz (talk) 05:29, 4 July 2017 (UTC)
sorry but you just try to censor historical facts. you write something in your edit summaries but your edits are something else. 2 edits by you and both of them are misleading. false edit summary in the 1st edit as i explained it, and trying to remove referenced text and replacing it with your own text in the 2nd edit. ottomans used those terms and they didn't identify as turk. i don't read your comments anymore because you are not neutral. my edit should remain in the article. you can edit it but you can't delete/censor/falsify it. ask for the 3rd opinions if you can't deal with it in a neutral way. 94.176.85.70 (talk) 06:11, 4 July 2017 (UTC)
We already have a third opinion from Chamboz above. Again, per WP:ONUS "The onus to achieve consensus for inclusion is on those seeking to include disputed content." Calling others "not neutral" won't convince anyone. Unless you address objections and get consensus, your addition will be removed. Eperoton (talk) 15:24, 4 July 2017 (UTC)
lol chamboz is not a 3rd-opinion because he tried to remove my edits and shares similar goals with you and stop your fake edits.since when we had a consensus or i have accepted your changes? ask some good users to come here. i ignore you due to your biased edits and false edit summaries.as much as i try to improve this article you just try to own it.nor more discussion with you.other editors are welcome.188.158.119.166 (talk) 05:22, 12 July 2017 (UTC)
This article keeps popping up on my recent changes list because of this edit war, still unresolved. Firstly i'm obliged to say that Eperoton's arguments are reasonable and very well put, and in response to them i see mostly ad hominems from the IP editor. His/her original intention was to have a section named "Ottomans and Turkish identity" with this material. AFAIK there is no coverage of this topic in any article and these would be relevant facts to such a topic, but creating a section just to mention them alone, without a proper contextualization, is not even a halfway decent attempt at covering the subject. Therefore, i, also, disagree with the addition of the IP editor in the two ways that have been demonstrated so far.--GroGaBa (talk) 14:10, 12 July 2017 (UTC)

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"Persianate"[edit]

Could the anonymous editor, with quotes, explain how his sources support the claim, which he is trying to place at the very top of the lead paragraph, that the Ottoman Empire was "Persianate"? It's one thing to note the existence of certain aspects of Persianate culture in the empire in the appropriate sub-sections, but you're making an extremely generalized claim about the entire empire, across its entire 600-year history, which can very easily give readers a highly misleading impression.Chamboz (talk) 17:10, 19 September 2017 (UTC)

The organization, bureaucracy, hictorical accounts, traditions, poetry, court system of the Ottomans belongs to the Persiante society. Nearly all Ottoman sultans were master in Persian poetry. The official name of the empire, "Devlet-i Aliyye-i Osmaniyye" is in Persian Grammar. Ottoman Empire contributed more to Persian culture than many Iranian dynasties.
So.. no quotes from sources? No historians who refer to the empire as Persianate? Just your interpretation, which seeks to characterize the entire empire unreservedly as Persianate, in the process ignoring all the other cultural influences that existed? Nope, not getting added. Chamboz (talk) 17:49, 19 September 2017 (UTC)
I added the reliable sources. You are free to read it. Also you just asked 3 questions but nothing on facts and sources.
No, it's your job to demonstrate how your sources support the claim you want to make, especially considering the extremely general nature of your claim, and the prominent place you want it to have in the article. Chamboz (talk) 17:57, 19 September 2017 (UTC)
My job is done. I placed the reliable sources in the article. Now your turn! Just read the sources. You act like you own this article. You can't ignore the reliable sources. Please be honest.
That's not how it works and you know it. Just because you've cited sources doesn't mean that everyone else has to take hours out of their lives to locate and read them all if they want to challenge you, otherwise I could write anything I want while citing several hard-to-access books and tell people that they can't challenge me until they've tracked down and read them all. You want to make an inclusion to the article, so you have to justify it. Supposedly you've read these sources, so can you please provide quotations from them demonstrating how they support the claim you want to make. Chamboz (talk) 18:25, 19 September 2017 (UTC)
Please gain consensus here before making such a radical change to the opening sentence of the article. You have added sources, but they are all from a single POV that is not supported in the rest of the article. Per WP:BRD, the burden is on the editor adding new material to gain consensus, and we revert to the status ante during the discussion. Please stop adding content that you know is under dispute and current discussion. Laszlo Panaflex (talk) 22:10, 19 September 2017 (UTC)

──────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────── @ Mr. IP (194.135.154.224 (talk · contribs)), you need to understand that, no matter whether you're actually right or wrong, edit-warring is never the solution. From what I can see, you initiated it, so please pay attention in the future. Having said that, WP:GF assumed, this matter is taken far too light for a really long time now. Though I concur with Chamboz's revert, the leading culture of the Ottoman Empire, represented by the Ottoman dynasty, was definitely Persianate for centuries. In fact, the whole basis of the empire is shrouded in this particular air. Organization, bureaucracy, poetry, hictorical accounts, traditions, miniatures, court system, the language of the elite/court, are just some points and defining "pillars" that come to mind. This is something that can't overlooked, and a plethora of sources are out there to remember us of that;

  • "The Ottomans, Safawids and Mughals were steeped in the same Persianate-Islamic culture and shared Persian as their common language." -- Wink, Andre. In "India and Indonesia, during the Ancien Regime". Marshall & van Niel, et al. BRILL. p. 50.
  • "(...) and became one of the most influential handbooks of Islamic teachings in the Persianate world, from the Ottoman Empire through Iran, India, and Central Asia." -- The Sage Learning of Liu Zhi: Islamic Thought in Confucian Terms. (2009). Murata et al., Harvard University Asia Center . p. 4
  • "(...) and the attraction of this renaissance of Persian culture under Turkish political hegemony strongly influenced the Ottoman court, with echoes of that influence felt up to the 19th century. --The Encyclopaedia of Islam, Vol. VIII, page 211.
  • "Throughout the 16th century, then, Ottoman literature and culture was still considerably influenced by the Turco-Persian literature flourishing in the courts of Khurasan and Samarkand, while themes from everyday life inevitably crept into them as well; furthermore, Ottoman society, was beginning to be influenced by the West, without being fully aware of it." -- The Encyclopaedia of Islam, Vol VIII, page 214, Gonul Alpay Tekin.
  • "In contrast, the interesting thing about Ottoman written culture is that although Ottoman Turkish was intimately linked with Persian throughout its existence, although Ottoman scribes based their organization and culture on that of Persian scribes, and although Persian literature and documents formed the most important models for those of the Ottomans, the Ottoman written language was not at all stable or unchanging." -- Ottoman Turkish: Written language and Scribal Practice, 13th to 20th Centuries, Linda T. Darling, Literacy in the Persianate World:Writing and the Social Order, ed. Brian Spooner and William L. Hanaway, page 171,
  • "In a way, Ottoman resembled Latin as used in medieval or early modern Europe. It supplanted Persian, which had served as the literary language of the cultured upper classes during the first three centuries of the empire. The style of the poetry also resembled that of Persian." -- M. Sukru Hanioglu, A Brief History of the Late Ottoman Empire, page 35
  • "The bond deepened despite the fact that the foundations of Ottoman society seemed so Asiatic (Turkoman, Persianate, and Arab)."" -- Goffman, Daniel (2002). Cambridge University Press. pp 64-65
  • "However, Persian maintained its position also during the early Ottoman period in the composition of histories, and even Sultan Salim I(r.1512-20), a bitter enemy of Iran and the Shi'ites, wrote poetry in Persian." -- Bertold Spuler, Persian Historiography & Geography, page 68-69.

- LouisAragon (talk) 21:24, 28 September 2017 (UTC)

Oh, I absolutely agree that the (very significant) influence of Persian culture on the Ottomans deserves mention, but this sort of thing is easy to overstate. Persian was a major literary language within the empire, but was never the only such language, and it gave way to Turkish over the course of the 16th century. Ottoman rulers and the elite spoke Turkish, not Persian. Ottoman bureaucracy and administration, while it certainly drew on Persian antecedents to a significant degree, also drew on other antecedents and developed its own synthesis. The situation is not comparable to, say, the Mughal Empire, in which Persian was the primary court language and the language of administration throughout its entire existence. In the Ottoman Empire, the language spoken at court was Turkish and administrative documents were written in Turkish. Persian culture had a major role in Ottoman history, but it should be emphasized in context and not through generalizations, with attention paid to change over time. Chamboz (talk) 23:53, 28 September 2017 (UTC)
@Chamboz: Sorry, had completely forgotten about this talk page section. I agree with basically everything you said. The only point I believe is not entirely correct, is your statement that "Ottoman rulers and the elite spoke Turkish, not Persian". Though Persian was indeed not a majority language of the elite/court, they did speak and use it, at least for a considerable amount of time;
  • "Persian served as a minority prestige language of culture at the largely Turcophone Ottoman court." -- Yarshater, Ehsan, ed. (2012). A history of Persian literature (Vol. X). Chapter; Persian historiography. I.B.Tauris. p. 438
  • "With the rise of the Ottoman state, Persian gave way to Ottoman Turkish as the primary language of the literate classes in Anatolia, and it spread with the conquests into the Balkans. Nonetheless, Persian remained in vogue in the Ottoman court well into the sixteenth century." -- Masters, Bruce. (2013). The Arabs of the Ottoman Empire, 1516–1918: A Social and Cultural History. Cambridge University Press. p. 107
Now, having settled the matter; would you perhaps be willing to propose a line that we could add to the lede, that would summarize the entire thing? - LouisAragon (talk) 14:35, 16 October 2017 (UTC)