Talk:Scoville scale

Red Savina Habanero (TM)

I don't know how to do it, but Red Savina Habanero requires the TM symbol. Per the US Trademark database: http://tess2.uspto.gov/bin/showfield?f=doc&state=5a67l5.2.1 Tina Brooks 21:02, 7 March 2006 (UTC)

As to 16,000,000 vs 15,000,000 and other difficulties with the Scoville scale that should be possibly mentioned

(Lots of thoughts to consider)...

The Scoville heat unit scale is outdated, objective and shouldn't be encouraged as being the way to determine heat in peppers. The official American Spice Trade Association (ASTA) method for determining heat of peppers is the HPLC (High Performance Liquid Chromotography) HPLC determines the amount of capsaicin in parts per million and then this is somehow converted to SHUs. Unfortunately, I have as yet to find how one converts ppm to SHUs if someone can find that source, this fact should be noted as soon as that determination is found.

I have been told by several hot sauce manufacturers that the numbers SHUs cited as being in their hot sauces are pure approximations, because the cost of performing the HPCL is too dear. Hearsay, yes, but if we can get a verifiable source to cite, it would be useful.

Also, SHU tests as well as HPLCs require a base control in order to be reliable. I am having difficulty finding reliable sources for the details of what HPLC testing companies use to determine their ppms. Most of what is on the internet is redundant repetitions of the same false information.

Also, giving specific peppers specific SHUs is dangerous since no two peppers even on the same bush will consistently have the same level of SHUs and these amounts need to be determined in ranges. The idea that a specific type of pepper is going to automatically score a minimum level of SHUs is faulty, because any pepper is capable of not developing capsaicin and some species of habanero have been cultivated specifically because they have no capsaicin.

Another difficulty with SHU tests is that they cannot decipher between the different capsaicinoids. There are five.

According to an article at http://www.foodproductdesign.com/archive/1996/0596DE.html --- Scott Harris, technical service manager for Cal Compack Foods, Santa Ana, CA is quoted as saying "The coefficient of error is 50% for the Scoville method and less than 12% for the HPLC method" -- if this quote is verifiable (verified) I think this fact should be mentioned.

"Verifiable" means that there is a reputable source, not that we have determined the truth of the source, see WP:V. In this case, I think we can use the quote and let the reader judge reputability of the source. Dpbsmith (talk) 14:13, 1 March 2006 (UTC)

http://www.zarc.com/english/cap-stun/tech_info/oc/hplc.html This site cites ASTA analytical methods in determining capsaicin levels, but it's too technical for me to decipher as accurate. It determines capsaicin standard as 15,000,000. It seems to me that ASTA determines that actual value as 15,000,000.

I don't know where Blair Lazar got the count for 16,000,000 but although Guinness accepts that this is the hottest sauce commercially available, there is no mention anywhere on their website that they agree to the "16,000,000" count.

Given that ASTA is the worlds' authority in the spice world I'm inclined to lean on their 15,000,000 and to question the 16,000,000 as the maximum rating on Dave's Gourmet.

http://www.lib.iastate.edu:81/ipac20/ipac.jsp?session=1Y411832466FN.44508&profile=parks&source=~!horizon&view=items&uri=full=3100001~!1063526~!1&ri=1&aspect=basic_search&menu=search&ipp=20&spp=20&staffonly=&term=capsaicin&index=.GW&uindex=&aspect=basic_search&menu=search&ri=1 This link speaks to the determination of capsaicin in capiscums, but it's another member only database.

I believe that AOAC International also uses the HPCL as the determinate for capsaicin in capsicum, I haven't found details yet... they're here: http://www.aoac.org/

More to come...

Tina Brooks 03:37, 1 March 2006 (UTC)

Good luck. I will not sleep happily until this is settled... ;) --njh 06:31, 1 March 2006 (UTC)

According to the article, 15 units is equal to one part per million, this would have to mean that 15,000,000 is the maximum possible rating, would it not? --user:Aja-Oki

If you can do math, then 15 is the maximum... If anyone knows how to add a citation, here is a reputable source for the Asta method I mentioned previously... http://www.zarc.com/english/cap-stun/tech_info/oc/hplc.html Hopefully there will soon be others and we'll stop seeing bad math??? Tina Brooks 21:24, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

http://www.chemistry.org/portal/a/c/s/1/feature_ent.html?id=b90b964c5ade11d7e3d26ed9fe800100 Tina Brooks 21:34, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

Dry or wet?

"the hottest chiles, such as habaneros, have a rating of 300,000 or more"

Dry or wet? -- Toytoy 00:23, 21 September 2005 (UTC)

Related scales for other spices?

Is there any related scales for the heat of say Black pepper(piper nigra), Tasmanian pepper(Tasmannia sp.), Vietnamese mint or Berberis?

thai green chilies ?

I noticed Thai green chilies listed at above 500,000 scoville units. I see no mention anywhere else verifying this claim.

It was changed recently - if you can find evidence of the correct name then please do change it! njh 10:24, 13 November 2005 (UTC)

I've tried these, and they're brutal, from my experience they are more hot than the Habanero peppers at my local grovery store. --User:Aja-Oki

Internal Inconsistency

The article states "15 Scoville units is equivalent to one part capsaicin per million." Logically, the maximum value on the scale can then only be 15 * 1 million parts per million = 15.000.000 SCU, no 16 million as the list states. I could only find sources that agree with the 15 * 1 ppm figure, thus I assume the 16 million value is just a marketing gag of Blair Lazard (16 mio reserve). If nobody objects, I'll change the value in the list. --Matthias Bauer 18:45, 4 December 2005 (UTC)

I agree, and have changed it. njh 22:32, 4 December 2005 (UTC)

Pure Capsaicin

I object! Every site I have looked at says pure capsaicin is rated at 16 million SCU, even some wikipedia sites! The sites I'm talking about include:
[1]
[2]
[3]
[4]
[5]
[6]
No sites that I've seen have said pure capsaicin is 15 million SCU.

Quoting wikipedia as a source for wikipedia seems a little dangerous. The logic for why a value greater than 15e6 is is impossible is stated in the text: unless there is an error, in which case we need a primary reference!. Looking through those links I see a rather confused set of values. Here is one attempt to find the upper bound:

One part of chile "heat" per 1,000,000 drops of water rates as only 1.5 Scoville Units. The substance that makes a chili so hot (and therefore so enjoyable to Chili-Heads !), is Capsaicin. Pure Capsaicin rates over 15,000,000 Scoville Units !

Here is another:

At 16,000,000 Scoville Units is Pure Capsaicin.[7]

Both from the same site. None of the other links state a precise value for 1SU in terms of dilution. We seem to have no credible references to show that 15SU = 1ppm, nor that pure Capsaicin is 16e6SU. Perhaps 'Pure chili heat' is not the same as capsaicin. Until we have a definite value I'm going to leave this edit war. I want to see a good primary reference. It is quite plausible that someone made an error somewhere and that error has been copied all over the net.njh 16:54, 22 January 2006 (UTC)

15,000,000 and 16,000,000 are indistinguishable

It seems obvious that this question is meaningless; the measurement processes are too imprecise. It appears that by convention, when the HPLC method is used, the capsaicin concentration in parts per million is multiplied by 15. This is described in the Food Product Design article mentioned above [8]: "The HPLC measures the capsaicinoid(s) in ppm, which can then be converted to Scoville units using a conversion factor of 15, 20 or 30 depending on the capsaicinoid." These round numbers clearly suggest that this is just a rough equivalence. Similarly, the reference, http://www.zarc.com/english/cap-stun/tech_info/oc/hplc.html noted above uses the word "assume," i.e. pure capsaicin is "assumed" to be 15,000,000 units.

The Food Product Design article quotes a technical person as saying "The coefficient of error is 50% for the Scoville method and less than 12% for the HPLC method." Obviously this means that nobody can possibly know whether pure capsaican is "really" 15,000,000 or 16,000,000 on the original organoleptic Scoville scale. In fact, it sounds as if it could easily be anywhere from 10,000,000 to 20,000,000.

Furthermore, even the HPLC method is said to have a 12% error. It's not clear whether that means plus-or-minus 12% or plus-or-minus 6%, but in any case the difference between 15,000,000 and 16,000,000 is only 6.66%.

Too bad Scoville didn't propose a logarithmic scale. Dpbsmith (talk) 14:44, 1 March 2006 (UTC)

Schmidt Sting Pain Index

See also: Schmidt Sting Pain Index to compare the overall pain of insect stings

How is this relevant? It's a scale?--I hope that's not the extent of it. -Tedpennings 09:08, 22 March 2006 (UTC)

It's pain too :) Seriously, I agree it's not relevant -- 12.116.162.162 17:59, 19 July 2007 (UTC)

Parking unsourced entries here until sources can be provided

Well, these been tagged as unsourced for some time now and no sources have been provied. I'm removing them from the article and parking them here. They can be reinserted when source citations are provided. In case anyone isn't familiar with Wikipedia's verifiability policy, which is linked at the bottom of every edit box, in brief it states that 1. Articles should contain only material that has been published by reputable sources. 2. Editors adding new material to an article should cite a reputable source, or it may be removed by any editor. 3. The obligation to provide a reputable source lies with the editors wishing to include the material, not on those seeking to remove it.

I have little doubt that most of this information has in fact been published, but before putting it into an article it is necessary to include the published source from which it was obtained. Dpbsmith (talk) 00:51, 2 May 2006 (UTC)

P. S. In cases where the item has a Wikipedia article which gives a Scoville rating, it is still necessary to find where that article got its Scoville rating and copy the reference here into this article, as Wikipedia articles are not acceptable references for other articles (WP:RS). Dpbsmith (talk) 00:54, 2 May 2006 (UTC)

1. This is the only interesting bit of this article. Stop being a complete loner and put it back.#

Well, please help me find source(s). The policy says "The obligation to provide a reputable source lies with the editors wishing to include the material." I will be looking for sources myself, as I have elsewhere in this article. I suspect most of this material can be sourced, but it shouldn't go back into the article until it is.

A lot of commercial websites, e.g. http://www.thescarms.com/hotstuff/HotSauces.htm have a lot of this, but it's not clear where they got it from—I suspect they've copied it from each other—I don't think they really qualify as reliable sources, and copying large amounts of material, particularly from a commercial website, raises copyright problems. Dpbsmith (talk) 18:01, 3 May 2006 (UTC)

Police grade is not 5 mill. Most agencies operate around 1 mill. The tough ones are considered two mill. Trust me I was sprayed with BodyGuard LE-1O (rated at 2 million) about 6 hours ago for training and certification to carry OC spray. I did a bit of research and between our instructors telling us so and about 10 companies that sell LE-10 that claim it to be one of the strongest I'm pretty sure police grade doesnt go much higher. There may be 5 mill pepper sprays out there, but you'll be hard pressed to find a police agency that approves their use, thus shouldnt the cap be brought down, because if the police dont use it, it's obviously not police grade...  ? Thoughts ? thekingbeav 09:29, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

Scoville rating	Type of pepper
7,100,000	"The Source" hot sauce
5,300,000	Police grade Pepper spray
2,000,000	Common pepper spray or Pepper Bomb
350,000 - 580,000	Red Savina habanero
100,000 - 350,000	Habanero chile
100,000 - 325,000	Scotch bonnet
100,000 - 225,000	African birdseye (aka "African Devil", "Piri-Piri")
100,000 - 200,000	Jamaican hot pepper
100,000 - 125,000	Carolina cayenne pepper
95,000 - 110,000	Bahamian pepper
85,000 - 115,000	Tabiche pepper
50,000 - 100,000	Chiltepin pepper
50,000 - 100,000	Rocoto
40,000 - 58,000	Pequin pepper
40,000 - 50,000	Super chile pepper
40,000 - 50,000	Santaka pepper
30,000 - 50,000	Cayenne pepper
30,000 - 50,000	Tabasco pepper
15,000 - 30,000	de Arbol pepper
12,000 - 30,000	Manzano pepper, Ají
5,000 - 23,000	Serrano pepper
5,000 - 10,000	Hot wax pepper
5,000 - 10,000	Chipotle
2,500 - 8,000	Jalapeño
2,500 - 8,000	Santaka pepper
2,500 - 5,000	Guajilla pepper
2,500	Tabasco Sauce
1,500 - 2,500	Rocotilla pepper
1,000 - 2,000	Pasilla pepper
1,000 - 2,000	Ancho pepper
1,000 - 2,000	Poblano pepper
700 - 1,000	Coronado pepper
500 - 2,500	Anaheim pepper
500 - 1,000	New Mexico pepper
500 - 700	Santa Fe Grande pepper
100 - 500	Pepperoncini pepper
100 - 500	Pimento
0	Bell pepper

I have now reinstated the table as it is the most important content on this page. The tags indicate the need for references. Better spend your time on finding those references in the scientific literature... :-) Cacycle 08:25, 12 May 2006 (UTC)

The verifiability policy is perfectly clear: "3. The obligation to provide a reputable source lies with the editors wishing to include the material, not on those seeking to remove it." Those fact tags have been there for a very long line. I did spend some time trying to find a good reference for some of these items, and I've put in a few. If you want the others in the article, you need to find some references. There's no requirement that the references be from the scientific literature; I'm perfectly happy with the Guinness Records website, for example; but they do need to meet the reliable source guidelines.

Since a source is cited for the Dorset Naga value, I've put it back. I've removed the claim that it's the world's hottest pepper, although the cited source does make that claim; I'm just quoting the reported Scoville value and let the reader draw his or her own conclusions.

I've removed the material on "Disputed, unverified or erroneous claims of SHU values:

855,000 Naga Jolokia pepper

900,000/923,000 Dorset Naga."

In the case of the Dorset Naga, if we are to say it is disputed, we need to say who disputes it (and cite a reference). In the case of the Naga Jolokia pepper, no reference is given either for its Scoville value, or for that value being disputted or erroneous. Dpbsmith (talk) 16:31, 21 May 2006 (UTC)

Scoville units are imprecise ???

The article's sentence "Scoville units are imprecise" is itself imprecise and should be replaced by a precise statement of what is imprecise. The modern Scoville unit *per se* is not imprecise at all. t is defined by 1 Scoville unit = 1 part of capsaicinoids per 15 million, and it is now determined precisely by a chemical test called high performance liquid chromatography -- and these facts appear in the article. (Except for a mild error: the article says "1 part of capsaicin per 15 million" where it should say "capsaicinoids" in place of "capsaicin". This should be corrected.)

What is imprecise should be made precise: It is mentioned that the original "organoleptic" test is subjective and therefore imprecise, but the sentence "Scoville units are imprecise" doesn't make clear what version of "Scoville units" it refers to. And what is implied but not stated explicitlly is that using the liquid chromatography method, what is imprecise is the assignment of a fixed number of Scoville units to a given variety of capsicum. (And this rarely happens; in almost all such tables, one finds a *range* of Scoville units assigned to a given variety.) Daqu 15:01, 24 May 2006 (UTC)

• Actually, the article says that the results of HPLC can vary by plus-or-minus 12%, which is not what I would call "precise." And, the HPLC test does _not_ yield "Scoville units." Scoville units are by definition the results of the organoleptic test. The HPLC test yields ASTA pungency units, which are then given a rough equivalent in Scoville units. Dpbsmith (talk) 16:30, 24 May 2006 (UTC)

A few additions and citations here and there. Any more will be greatly recieved. ~ Pyoro

Scoville heat units?

How official is this term? Most sources I've seen simply refer to them as Scoville units. If "Scoville heat unit" is correct, it certainly has an unscientific ring to it, as it's not a unit of temperature but pungency. This goes too for the article itself, as it uses the words "heat" or "hotness" while referring to pungency.

Scoville value for non-hot pepper

The way I read the definition of Scoville values in the second paragraph, a completely non-hot pepper would have a value of 1, i.e. a 1:1 dilution of the pepper has no detectable heat. Yet in the chart of values, bell peppers are given a value of 0. I believe this to be inconsistent.

The value of 0 is correct: they need zero (not 1:1) dilution to become undetectably hot. --User:Taejo|대조 09:00, 22 April 2007 (UTC)

New Hottest Pepper: Bhut Jholokia

1. See here: http://www.nmsu.edu/~ucomm/Releases/2007/february/hottest_chile.htm Should probably be incorporated into the scoville scale somehow.

2. Also, the top picture and its caption should be removed and replaced with the new record holder, or the caption should be changed to second hottest for the Naga Jolokia.

---

—The preceding unsigned comment was added by Omglazers (talk • contribs) 04:44, 22 February 2007 (UTC).

Ho-hum, the bhut jolokia is the same pepper as the naga jolokia. Please do some research before telling us what should be done. Skopp (Talk) 15:06, 22 February 2007 (UTC)

hitandrun83@hotmail.com

Naga Morich is the hottest pepper raiting at 1.6 million scovilles. Atleast that what the guy selling "snake bite" hot sauce. If naga morich and naga jolokia and bhut or bih jolokia are the same, why are there differeces listed for their heat?

Calculating the resulting SHU for mixed solutions

Why can't this section be included in the article? Isn't it possible to calculate SHU this way?

The resulting hotness for a mix of solutions with known volumes $V$ and known concentrations of capsaicin $C$, measured in SHU, is described by the formula: $C={\frac {C_{1}V_{1}+C_{2}V_{2}}{V_{1}+V_{2}}},$ or by using $k$ as the quantity of volume between solution 1 relative to 2: $C={\frac {kC_{1}+C_{2}}{k+1}}.$ E.g. mixing 2 parts of 10 000 SHU with 1 part of 100 000 SHU results in 40 000 SHU.

Libido 15:42, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

• Pray tell us why your speculations are worthy of inclusion? This looks to me like complex vandalism. Skopp (Talk) 15:53, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

• • This is the kind of answer I expected from Skopp, but the main question remains unanswered. Is it possible to calculate SHU this way? My assumption to do this calculation is based on logic thinking and is currently of interest for me to be verified or falsified. Another example that seems rational: Mixing 1 part of 10 000 SHU with 1 part of 0 SHU gives a 5 000 SHU mix, right? I don't see the flaw in my formulae. Libido 14:09, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

Tear Gas

I think I read somewhere that tear gas is in the range of thirty to fifty million scovilles. Is this a fact? Can non-capsaicin chemicals be properly rated on the Scoville Scale? --Alx xlA 03:02, 3 August 2007 (UTC)

As I believe the Scoville Scale is essentially subjective to the human experience, it's reasonable to assume that it can be rated on the same scale. Really, the scale doesn't measure the amount of capsaicin in the fruit (or substance, in processed varieties) it just measures heat. The more acurate HPLC form certainly can't be used to rate tear gas, as it would not contain any capsaicin. --Puellanivis 19:22, 22 October 2007 (UTC)

Anaheim? New Mexico Chile? Peppers?

I'm having some trouble figuring some of this stuff out. I grew up in New Mexico and only knew the chiles in that area as "Chiles". It wasn't until I got to Seattle that I learned that there were different types. (Sure we knew of "Jalapenos" and "Habeneros" but those weren't included in what was meant when one said chiles in New Mexico.)

So, now I find out that the "Anaheim Chile Pepper" is the more common term for the New Mexican Chile Pepper. The problem I'm having to reconcil, is that New Mexico Chile Peppers are typically much hotter (say 4000-5000) than Anaheim Chile Peppers, (250-500) and in particular, Anaheim Chile Peppers are described as being less hot than Poblanos. New Mexico Chile Peppers are typically much hotter than Poblanos. Now, while I'm aware that they are the same species, they are different genetic branches of the same tree, where New Mexico Chiles are still bred for high heat for native dishes, even if they're bred for lower heat for the consumption outside of New Mexico.

So, should this list mention "most Anaheim Chiles", and "New Mexican strains of Anaheim Chiles"? Or should they be properly refered to as different, but point to the same thing. --Puellanivis 19:23, 22 October 2007 (UTC)

Da Bomb Chilli Sauce

There is a chill sauce called Da Bomb which as been tested to 1,500,000 by a third party lab. Can we add this to the table?

http://www.chilliworld.com/SP6.asp?p_id=101

Tim