Talk:Portuguese phonology/Archive 1

Introduction

The introduction needs some work. The criticism of foreign misinterpretation of the vowel distinction needs to be toned down quite a bit. Peter Isotalo 11:51, Mar 18, 2005 (UTC)

Not only that. Phonology, allophones and dialectal differences are all mish-mashed into one big issue of "having many vowels". --Pablo D. Flores 12:50, 2 May 2005 (UTC)

Rodizio

Hi, I was working the article rodizio and I was thinking it might be nice to put it in IPA. Unfortunately, I don't speak Portuguese. The article says the pronunciation is "ro-DEE-zhyoo". This seems to conflict with the note in the orthography section here that "z" between vowels is pronounced [z]. Any advice? Lesgles (talk) 05:41, 26 February 2006 (UTC)

Leave it to me... Ciacchi 16:45, 17 March 2006 (UTC)

Thanks! Lesgles (talk) 04:04, 24 March 2006 (UTC)

Edits to the paragraphs on diphthongs

I've made some considerable changes to the paragraphs on oral and nasal diphthongs:

I deleted all the increasing diphthongs because I don't think they're usually counted as diphthongs per se, and because increasing diphthongs in Portuguese can be treated as hiatuses.

I deleted the statement "[ej] is only pronounced as [ɐj] in Lisbon. In the rest of Portugal, it is pronounced like common [ej]", because it's not accurate. This pronunciation is quite common in Portugal, nowadays.

I moved up and expanded a note on the pronunciation of the digraph ou which was at the bottom of the page. 30 Mar. 2006.

â ân

i've never seen a circunflex accent on a. only on e and o. can anyone give examples? --itaj 11:26, 26 May 2006 (UTC)

Câmara, gândara, tâmara, trâmite, Cândido, Tâmega. Joaopais 16:45, 26 May 2006 (UTC)

is it like that in BP too or just EP? --itaj 14:57, 27 May 2006 (UTC)

The examples that Joaopais gave are written the same way in BP and EP. Are you sure you haven't seen the word câmara before? FilipeS 17:58, 27 May 2006 (UTC)

P.S. Or how about Bethânia? :) FilipeS

OK, thanks for the answers. well i have been in brasil six months and i speak portuguese quite fluently for day to day conversations, and pretty much i can write (correctly) everything i can say. but i've really never seen that before. every day is good for something new...

i only once heard the name tâmara of the fruit, but never seen it written, so i supposed it was támara. actually i think my brasilian friend pronounced it like á.

the other words i don't know at all. are most of them names?

is tâmara imported to portuguese? i know it's an old semitic word. is there some "original" or common vocabulary with â?

how common is â in general? --itaj 19:25, 27 May 2006 (UTC)

The word câmara (city hall) is quite common. (I'm not sure the same term is used in Brazil, though.) The others are indeed uncommon, and the two last ones that Joaopais wrote are proper nouns. For the origin of tâmara, see here. All words with orthographic â are proparoxytones, and since Portuguese words are usually stressed on their last syllable, or on the one before the last, it's not surprising that you haven't noticed them yet.

On another note, I took a peak at your website, and I think here's a little incorrection in it. I would rather say página de capoeira. ;-) Regards. FilipeS 20:17, 27 May 2006 (UTC)

thanks. and then it's not just prepatoxytone. i know many prepaxoytones in portuguese, but they use á é í ó ú ê ô - like página :) it's just â that are too rare to have crossed my way until now.

and thanks for helping with the site. i need to ask something then: i wanted to specify that it is "the Capoeira" not just "capoeira", thus i wrote "página da capoeira" does it make no sense?

Why would you want to say "the Capoeira"? Isn't the site devoted to capoeira in general? FilipeS 21:51, 27 May 2006 (UTC)

oh, got you. thanks. --itaj 11:13, 28 May 2006 (UTC)

Incidentally, aren't the stressed vowels in "página" and "câmara" two different phonemes in Brazilian Portuguese ? At least, my English/Brazilian Portuguese dictionary gives two different transcriptions for them. 161.24.19.82 21:02, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

Yes, the former is an oral vowel, and the latter is nasal. FilipeS 16:15, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

all â examples given above are nasal vowels (come before m or n). does â exist as oral vowel (non-nasal)? examples? --itaj 15:45, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

Only in European Portuguese, as far as I know. FilipeS 15:50, 20 June 2006 (UTC).

what is only in EP (as far as you know)? which of the following are true:

1. â comes only before m or n and pronounced nasal in BP but oral in EP. as in the above examples: Câmara, gândara, tâmara, trâmite, Cândido, Tâmega.
2. there are words with â that is not before m or n (thus never nasal), but there words are used only in EP. anyone has examples?

--itaj 02:05, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

Nr. 2 is not true. Nr. 1 is half right, and half wrong: â does always come before m or n, and is always pronounced nasal in BP (as far as I know). In EP, â is not nasal if the m/n is followed by a vowel, but it is nasal if the m/n is followed by a consonant. This is explained in the article, if you read closely. FilipeS 14:11, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

thanks much for your help. you mean what's written after the table in the section of nasal monophthongs? i've seen it but could not derive that â never comes without a following n or m. also because â is listed with the oral monophthongs with no special comment. --itaj 18:00, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

It's true that the article does not state that â always occurs before m or n. However, I think it does make clear that, whenever it occurs before m or n, it is nasal in BP. Given the written form of a word, this should be enough information to know how to pronounce it. On the other hand, given the spoken form of a word, you already know whether it's nasal or not. FilipeS 21:47, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

exactly that i understood. but i was curious to know about the always part because then i can think of â as the nasal allophone of á. so they're much like the regular tonic oral/nasal a which differ in pronunciation about the same way. though as writing now i realise that i actually also need to know that á never comes before m or n. --itaj 22:41, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

Fricative allophones of the plosives in EP: citation needed

I'm going to rephrase the article, and ask for a citation for the statement that the plosives [b], [k], [g] have the fricative allophones [β], [ð], and [ɣ], respectively, in European Portuguese. The reasons are as follows:

• While I have heard people pronounce words with these allophones, in my experience it is not that common, and most people do not use them consistently. They seem to be used only in some regions, or in high registers, and in songs like the fado. I would venture to say that in their everyday life even the people of Lisbon do not use these allophones consistently. I may be wrong, but if so I am not the only native speaker who has this impression. See this earlier discussion.
• Mateus and d'Andrade (see references) state that there is no difference between the pronunciation of the plosives in Portugal and Brazil. FilipeS 13:40, 27 May 2006 (UTC)

Actually, they do. Footnote 2 to page 11. FilipeS

e in BP

sometimes unstressed e is pronounced /i/ (i think). like berimbau, tesoura. in tesoura it also palatalizes t like usualy i does, for being pronounced /i/.

is that correct? are there rules to know by the spelling of the word when e pronounced like that? --itaj 10:46, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

Your observations are correct. The Wikipedia article just gives general guidelines. For more specific information regarding the phonology and other linguistic aspects of Portuguese, you should consult the literature, or specialized websites. ;-) FilipeS 21:15, 3 June 2006 (UTC)

BTw, unstressed "o" is also sometimes pronounced /u/ in Brazil like in Portugal, e.g. in words like "dormir", "cobrir", "bonita", "João", "doente", etc...

Palatalization of /t/ and /d/ before /i/

A user changed the comparison of this phenomenon of Brazilian Portuguese with the very similar one in Quebec French into an analogy with Japanese, claiming that Japanese is a better analogy. I would like to know why, before accepting the change. FilipeS 21:19, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

i think you should keep both comments even if you accept the new one. french is closer to portuguese so it makes it interesting in a different way. also someone with interest in portuguese is more likely to know some french than japanese. --itaj 22:36, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

Both comparisons are indeed interesting, although neither of them coincides completely with the palatalization seen in Brazilian Portuguese: Japanese palatalizes all consonants before /i/, not just /t/ and /d/; and while Quebec French palatalizes only the consonants /t/ and /d/, it does so not just before /i/, but also before /y/ and /u/.

In any event, there's already a reference to Japanese at Brazilian Portuguese. FilipeS 12:18, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

I reverted changes made by Ciacchi, asserting that idade, sorte, etc. are palatalized rather than affricated; this is simply wrong. It is contrary to numerous sources (e.g. Routledge's "The Romance Languages") and is contrary to what my ears tell me. Benwing 07:13, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

I strongly agree with Benwing. 13:16, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

Please note that "palatalized" and "palatal" are two separate things. FilipeS

and neither of them are correct. "palatalization" is ok as a general description of the process which produced the affricates, but not as a description of their phonological manifestation. Benwing 06:36, 24 August 2006 (UTC)

delete the section on phonotactics?

someone recently added a section on "phonotactics". i see little point in the section as-is -- there is really no purpose in all the examples, and the basic idea could be summarized in a couple of sentences, but even then i don't see what is gained by the section. a real section on the phonotactics of portuguese would not try to reduce its phonotactics down to CCVC and such but would describe the actual restrictions. i.e. yes you can say "frustrar" but not "rfusrtar", nor "ftustrar", nor (in BP) "frustrac". also, EP and BP differ -- EP allows "advogado" but BP wants "ad/i/vogado". descriptions in terms of CCVC and such only work for languages like arabic, where the phonotactics actually work based on number rather than type of consonants. Benwing 07:24, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

• I agree with you. José San Martin 13:16, 20 August 2006 (UTC)
• I agree as well. The section is not informative in its current form, and it is unnecessary. FilipeS

incorrect BP pronunciation

Discussed at Talk: Portuguese Language.

Pronunciation of "ou"

The following has recently been added to the article.

Most speakers nowadays pronounce the digraph ou as a monophthong [o] when there's no possibility of confusion, although in some regions of Brazil and northern Portugal it is still pronounced as the falling diphthong [ou̯].

It's not clear to me what this "danger of confusion" might be. There are a few minimal pairs for the diphthong versus the monophthong, true, but most people in Portugal get along fine pronouncing both the same way. Context clears any doubts. Moreover, this pronunciation "to avoid danger of confusion" seems to be only done in Brazil (perhaps out of linguistic purism). Unless this is clarified, I am going to remove the remark from the article. FilipeS 14:44, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

Placement of Diphthongs section

This is not a big deal, but just for the record the reason why I had moved the Diphthongs section down was that they are not phonemes. I thought it was neater to discuss all phonemes first, and then list the diphthongs (which have a very straightforward correspondence with spelling, anyway, so they could just as well be listed at Portuguese orthography). FilipeS 15:25, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

New reference

What is the author, title, etc., of the newly added reference? FilipeS 19:20, 22 February 2007 (UTC)

Right, sorry, I should have clarified it. It is an excerpt from The Phonology of Portuguese , Maria Helena Mateus and Ernesto d'Andrade, published by Oxford University press. See it here on Google Books. Macgreco 23:52, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

I suspected as much, but didn't have the time to check. Thanks. FilipeS 12:41, 27 April 2007 (UTC)

Occitan influence

Before this escalates anymore, and since User:AnPrionsaBeag seems to be a newcomer to Wikipedia, I should perhaps give my reasons for reverting his edits, which were the following:

Palatal lateral approximant. In some Brazilian dialects, this phoneme is realized as palatal approximant [j], but this is not as widespread as yeísmo in Spanish. It came to Portuguese through Occitan in 1047, just like nh [1]. See also this and that.

[...] See lh for origin.

This edit is nonsensical. It's true that the digraphs "lh" and "nh" were adopted from Occitan, and that fact is mentioned at the Portuguese alphabet article, but this article is about phonology, not orthography. The phonemes /ʎ/ and /ɲ/ were not "borrowed" from any language; they developed in parallel in several Romance languages. User:AnPrionsaBeag has confused phonology and orthography completely, as I have already pointed out in one of my edit summaries.

With as much respect as I can muster, I have to say that it's particularly grating to be allegedly "corrected" and accused of "vandalism" by someone who is so clearly and utterly misguided. FilipeS 20:34, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

Learning Portuguese

To user FilipeS, I am an American female college student. If I ever learn Portuguese, it will be my second language. Should I rely on Wikipedia to get started? Which version will I be learning? I want to learn both European and Brazilian Portuguese if I can so I can be most effectively understood throughout the Portuguese-speaking world. I listen to bbcbrasil.com and bbcparaafrica.com, which are both media in Portuguese. I want to be a radio journalist.

Should this article be expanded further? I wouldn't know what to say 'cause I'm not a native speaker like you. Do you speak EP or BP or both? Does it help to know both versions to be understood in the Portuguese-speaking world?

learnportuguese 20:47, 23 August 2007 (UTC)

Hello. I've replied to you in your UserTalk page. :-) FilipeS 22:23, 25 August 2007 (UTC)

[s] vs. [ʃ] dialects?

Portuguese phonology#Sibilants says:

As was mentioned above, the dialects of Portuguese can be divided into two groups, according to whether syllable-final sibilants are pronounced as alveolar /s/, /z/, or as postalveolar consonants /ʃ/, /ʒ/.

But it isn't mentioned anywhere above!--Imz 00:08, 6 October 2007 (UTC)

I think I've addressed the issue now. For future reference, comments within the article should be hidden like this <!-- hidden comment-->. Ƶ§œš¹ _{[aɪm ˈfɻɛ̃ⁿdˡi]} 01:13, 6 October 2007 (UTC)

Hmm, I think that above reference was reasonable in that that this information doesn't belong to Portuguese phonology#Connected speech section, at least in a straightforward understanding of what connected speech is. So, I thought someone could give full details about this fact in a right section.

As for how to format comments: I didn't want to hide that comment. Some editorial comments are admitted in articles, like those asking for references and factual accuracy. There are special templates for them. My comment was of that kind. It brought attention of a reader to an inconsistency in the article, which could be fixed by a reader with enough knowledge. So, I wouldn't use <!-- hidden comment--> for that. Thank you for your reaction!--Imz 17:57, 23 October 2007 (UTC)

Lenition of b, d, and g in European Portuguese

Several sources state that a recent sound change in European Portuguese as lenition for b, d, and g similar to what occurs in Spanish. Yet, there is no mention of this in the article. Anyone want to chime in? Azalea pomp 01:57, 9 November 2007 (UTC)

Yes, there is. Read it more carefully. FilipeS 21:27, 11 November 2007 (UTC)

The table at "unstressed vowels is a total mess, some things are right but some others are false (either in portuguese portuguese or in brazilian portuguese). A correction would be welcome.