Talk:Lolicon

That image (or "I don't think you guys get it")

The current image (Image:Lolicon example.jpg) is a terrible example. As one who thinks plenty of inappropriate thoughts while reading loli manga, I can tell you that that thing is hideous and must go. No lolicon would find that thing attractive. 70.129.185.143 14:13, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

No lolicon would find that thing attractive. Why do you think they decided on something that's not at all representative of the subject otherwise? --lucid 14:32, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

It's not a matter if a lolicon will find the image attractive, but whether the image fairly represents the subject of the article. --Farix (Talk) 15:06, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

If you want a better picture, contact a Japanese artist and tell them Wikipedia's constraints and the GFDL requirement. This has been discussed a million billion times. 137.22.97.219 05:50, 19 September 2007 (UTC)

Absolutely. A better image that conforms to GFDL would be quite welcome. Further complaints about the existing picture won't really address the problem. / edg ☺ ★ 06:03, 19 September 2007 (UTC)

Couldn't we just have a photo of a little girl? --SeizureDog 07:24, 10 October 2007 (UTC)

No, since that will open a whole new can of worms (privacy, bluring and God-knows what else). For those wishing to ask Kasuga for a drawing, he won't do it. He stated on his talk page before that he does not wish to draw sexual graphics for the site. (I will also say now that I also refuse to draw an image). User:Zscout370 ^{(Return Fire)} 07:39, 10 October 2007 (UTC)

It doesn't have to be sexual (or even suggestive) to be lolicon though.--SeizureDog 23:35, 10 October 2007 (UTC)

I think that image looks fine... ^^ —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.242.24.243 (talk) 16:51, 28 October 2007 (UTC)

It's about time this article got a decent image. Much more suitable than the last one. --M.W. (talk) 18:21, 21 November 2007 (UTC)

Comment & Suggestion

I just moved this from the preceding heading, since it didn't belong there.

May a non-Wikpedian make a few comments? My background for doing so in part includes having published a number of scholarly articles about manga and sexuality (I included a reference below; for more background see my User Page) and in part for having published a number of scholarly books and articles about human sexuality.

I sympathize with the issues and problems you're all debating -- they're not easy. Furthermore, the Lolicon article and the discussion (above) reflects some very deep differences in beliefs about sexuality, pornography, and the law. These problems interact in messy kinds of ways. Let me try to explain what I mean.

I am NOT trying to reopen any arguments about THAT picture -- the one that was deleted and put back and deleted and put back seemingly endlessly -- but I'd like to try to refocus the entire issue. The article itself does not provide a good definition of lolicon, although it gives examples. This is a "It's THAT kind of thing" approach and assumes that readers all share a set of unspoken agreements about sexuality, children, and pornography. But because there isn’t a clear definition of any of the important words (like lolicon itself), it is also unclear (in my opinion) what the picture shows at all or what it is supposed to show. In fact, I found myself wondering what you all *do* mean by the word lolicon because if that isn’t clear, nothing else is clear.

It’s not enough to speak about “sexualized” images of children. What you mean by the process of sexualization is not obvious. For example, does “sexualization” (or “sexualized”) refer to physiological changes in the child’s body that occur during pubescence? Do these words refer to responses in a **viewer’s** mind that transform an image into something erotic for that viewer? Does it refer to what happens when someone uses Photoshop to change an “innocent” image into something other people might call pornography? If one says “It’s pretty obvious that we mean things happening in the viewer’s mind,” then the article needs to discuss precisely that: how DO people perceive and interpret images in a sexual fashion? And then the article needs a background -- which it doesn’t currently have -- about the psychology of visual pedophilia.

Nor, again in my opinion, have the authors and editors of the article set the cultural framework of lolicon. Yes, there are some references and speculations, but lolicon has a more complicated history than merely Nabokov’s novel. Was Shirley Temple as a little girl a “lolicon” image, of course not called that because the word hadn’t been invented yet, but nonetheless identifiably lolicon in feeling, mood, and in how it was received? Where are the boundaries between lolicon and cute/kawaii? What are the differences between Gothic Lolita and lolicon? An **encyclopedic** article on lolicon should, I think, deal with those issues – and others as well.

Someone now might say that since I am asking these questions, I have to be the one to rewrite the article. But no, I don’t think that’s the case. I think this article has had enough of people making random (and strikingly non-consensual!) changes. Instead, I think the authors and editors need to define the scope and content of the article in ways that *are* encyclopedic. As I said, I’m not a Wikipedian and I don’t know the first thing about editing on Wikipedia. I’m an outside reader with some knowledge of how complex this area really is, who therefore has some hopes for what the article might eventually address.

Perper, Timothy and Martha Cornog 2002 Eroticism for the masses: Japanese manga comics and their assimilation into the U.S. Sexuality & Culture, Volume 6, Number 1, pages 3-126 (Special Issue).

Timothy Perper 08:44, 1 September 2007 (UTC)

Thank you so much, Timothy Perper, for bringing some rational sense into this over-emotional debate. "A set of unspoken agreements" have no place in a true encyclopedic article. Unless it's precisely an article ABOUT them.
About “sexualized” images of children, I've researched some established lolicon material and can give you a few examples of the wide spectrum it covers:
- Plain child rape by an adult. (Hello public uproar!) Extreme but rare stuff.
- Youngsters (i.e. children and/or teens) having a consensual sexual experience together. A sexualized mind of the character. Sometimes with overly mature physical attributes.
- Porn involving adults that look like youngsters. For instance, the sex life of furry toons like Mickey Mouse or Sonic the Hedgehog. Essentially in the viewer's mind.
- Specific fetishes not exactly pornographic, like youngsters getting a bare spanking, coaxed into a bath, having diapers changed while markedly over toddler age, etc.
- Or just classic but erotically-perceived tickling. (The other extreme of the spectrum.) What I called higher up "the kinky stuff". Ecchi.
"Where are the boundaries between lolicon and cute/kawaii?" They're as blurry and subjective as the boundaries between thin and fat, or short and tall. Most of the time, you'll face stuff that's infuriatingly borderline, drawing very contrasted judgements depending on the viewer. Such is the fate of sexuality topics. A bare-headed adult women is obscene porn to a taliban. Full frontal nudity is completely decent to a naturist. And law-makers are fond of over-cautiousness, for political motivations.
"And then the article needs a background -- which it doesn’t currently have -- about the psychology of visual pedophilia." Is there even such an article about the psychology of visual conventional PORN? An essential issue, I'm all with you there. And another guaranteed emotionally-charged controversy, I'll bet. Setting the cultural framework of lolicon is precisely what I am struggling to initiate. I think you could legitimately propose changes/additions in this talk page, and perhaps they'll eventually draw a majority's approval. As someone who's already published printed quality articles, you'd be very qualified for formulating things, I believe, and that's all that really counts. Anybody can insert your lines in the article if they're adopted.
Issar El-Aksab 03:49, 15 September 2007 (UTC)

Thanks! I appreciate your kind words. Right now, I'm working with some other folks on a revision of the Manga entry, and that's going to take a while. After that, though, maybe I'll try some edits on manga and sexuality.

You've given some good examples of lolicon/rorikon. My concern is to create, well, if not a *boundary*, then a border zone between genuine "rorikon hentai" with more or less explicit sexual involvement between a child and another person, and images/narratives that may offend, outrage, or worry a sensitive American but are *not* pornographic. An example of the latter is the common and accepted practice in Japan of nude adults and children bathing together, for example, the scene in My Neighbor Totoro. Such bathing is customary (or has been) in Japan, part of what I mean by the "cultural backdrop" of lolicon in manga and anime.

I'm also trying to get away from the "we know it when we see it" assessment. That view is widespread indeed, and even Supreme Court Justice Potter used the phrase. But it's no help if we're trying to think clearly. What YOU see and what I see can be very different.

For example, the much-debated image on this entry of the girl with her lollipop holding a bucket and shovel at the beach.

Person A: "Yup, no question -- clear cut lolicon. Look at that penile lollipop and her nearly naked body!"

Person B: "She looks so unhappy. Maybe some boys came by and kicked down her sandcastle. She's about to cry."

To Person A, the image IS lolicon; to Person B it is NOT. There us no common ground of understanding or communication between Person A and Person B. All they can do is disagree and very likely fight about it.

This is a MAJOR issue in the present discussion and in most discussions of visual depictions of sexuality. There is literally no way that Person B can tell Person A that A is upset about something Person A is making up in his own head. To use a fancy word, we ATTRIBUTE sexuality to images.

Even this statement can elicit angry responses. "Do you mean to tell me that a picture of a naked woman with six men ejaculating on her is NOT sexual? Whadda you, crazy?" This person is missing the point. In most of the discussion on this talk page and in the lolicon article itself, we are NOT discussing explicit depictions of bukkake or pedophilic oral penetration. We are discussing images that have many readings -- to use abother fancy word, these images are "polysemic."

I didn't invent these problems. But they are central to any analysis of sexual imagery that goes beyond "I know it when I see it." And, as I indicated, I don't think the Lolicon article deals with these sorts of issue.

Timothy Perper 08:29, 15 September 2007 (UTC)

"My concern is to create, well, if not a *boundary*, then a border zone between genuine "rorikon hentai" with more or less explicit sexual involvement between a child and another person, and images/narratives that may offend, outrage, or worry a sensitive American but are *not* pornographic."

It's a pleasure meeting someone both informed and analytic. It's definitely difficult at times to put one's sensitivity backstage and leave it there. I for one find the average american public's attitude waaay oversensitive (they're definitely near the high end of the spectrum), but my feelings have no place on Wikipedia. They're completely off-topic for a wikipedian. All I would have the deontological right to do, is objectively contribute to articles dealing with such social issues, by bringing facts like social and historical backround, or mention of current events. While avoiding adding my personal biases.

The "we know it when we see it" assessment is linked to the hip with another article that several debaters seem oblivious of: the Miller test. Which basically brings us back to your summary: sexuality, eroticism, obscenity, art, beauty, etc are in the viewer's eye, and highly dependant on subjective "contemporary community standards". These criteriae change with place and time. In an encyclopedia they have to be stated, not judged. Not because "you or I" think so, but because such are the guidelines. The existence of such tense discussions in itself is a very interesting and revealing phenomenon. Perhaps deserving a Wikipedia article? ;-)

"Do you mean to tell me that a picture of a naked woman with six men ejaculating on her is NOT sexual? Whadda you, crazy?"

Well, to a seasoned porno producer, it's just routine work. Might leave him perfectly neutral, thinking only about the scene composition. To the cleaning lady, it's also work awaiting her when the shooting (no pun intended) is over. I recently read a science article where human coitus was studied live by MRI. The photo felt quite peculiar: a couple in the missionary position in the backdrop, positioned on an MRI moving plate halfway inside the machine; and a doctor in the front examining some of the image plates. Sexual, sure. Technically. But neither titillating nor pornographic. In reality it was just a scientific study, both viewpoints being necessarily separated. The couple certainly must've had a hard time keeping their focus in that noisy machine.

I studied everything about human reproduction in Med School. Everybody in class was focused and taking notes. And that's in the Middle-East! There's simply a proper time for everything. Similarly, I've "unlearned" several social reflexes, like thinking about sex at any sight of nudity, or feeling disgust when witnessing vomiting (now I feel clinical, purely analytic). Much more than what we believe is actually the pure doing of the mind, applying a pre-existing set of taught reactions.

I get the feeling your presence and contribution might help bring this whole article back on the track of the Wiki spirit, Mr Perper. Time will tell.Issar El-Aksab 01:47, 17 September 2007 (UTC)

I think that lolicon is just FINE.69.248.110.188 (talk) 23:37, 25 November 2007 (UTC)

Deletion of half the lead paragraph

To User:CyberGhostface - The paragraph refers to contradictory positions which are commonly held about lolicon. Please note that these positions are presented with citations in the article itself. The lead paragraph need not be footnoted when the relevant footnotes are included in the article. The language for this paragraph was agreed upon on this talk page after considerable debate. Thanks. -Jmh123 21:47, 22 September 2007 (UTC)

list of Lolicon Anime?

I want to know from you people is Lolicon a genre? If so do ya see ANY GOOD REASON not to create a List of Lolicon Anime?--Hoshi no hate 14:27, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

I think that would be crossing the line into promotion and should be avoided. I also really don't see a need for such a list either. --21:43, 9 October 2007 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by TheFarix (talk • contribs)

I don't see the need either, but some examples within the text would be helpful. -Jmh123 01:13, 10 October 2007 (UTC)

How about a category? User:Zscout370 ^{(Return Fire)} 07:40, 10 October 2007 (UTC)

Catagory?--Hoshi no hate 17:18, 10 October 2007 (UTC)

A category may be an alternative, but I'm afraid that will serve as a "hit list" for the anti-pedo patrolers. I also question if there are any lolicon works that are truly notable, outside of Kodomo no Jikan. --Farix (Talk) 20:40, 10 October 2007 (UTC)

Heh, this article is a joke anyway. Just look at the picture. There are lots of better of examples, but asking a Japanese artist for permission to use a picture isn't so simple. Since the people who insist on labelling all lolicons as pedophiles are killing this article, here's a better article on lolicon (it's short, but it doesn't have any of the biases of the Wikipedia article): [1] For the record, apart from moe type material, lolicon is a genre of hentai, but I don't think a list of lolicon anime will ever be created. --M.W. 11:00, 13 October 2007 (UTC)

Since we don't know what to list at lolicon. I personally don't. As for the image, my suggestion is to maybe give Flickr a whirl. User:Zscout370 ^{(Return Fire)} 06:28, 14 October 2007 (UTC)

On second though, maybe Flickr isn't (NSFW) the best choice. User:Zscout370 ^{(Return Fire)} 06:30, 14 October 2007 (UTC)

My eyes, gouging out they are. Kyaa the Catlord 07:36, 14 October 2007 (UTC)

That was my reaction. The reason why I tried to look at Flickr is that there could have been some art, already there, we could just ask to use and not having to ask one of us here to draw it. User:Zscout370 ^{(Return Fire)} 07:39, 14 October 2007 (UTC)

Lolicon is not a genre of hentai! Its a genre! There are Lolicon as Ecchi, Hentai, and Even Eroguro so I dont know what you mean by its hentai! and besides a list is a good Idea! You have List of orther genres of anime so why not Lolicon? It could be a good sorce for future info and help those looking for lolicon anime to watch!--Anime Expo 15:29, 22 October 2007 (UTC)

Then we get into an issue of what is lolicon, which is the source of edit wars we are experiencing now. That needs to be settled before we do anything else. User:Zscout370 ^{(Return Fire)} 18:18, 22 October 2007 (UTC)

How would you consider lolicon a genre, anyway? Care to cite some instances where it is being treated as such? Also, this couldn't be limited to anime. Other Japanese media have this as well. --Animeronin (talk) 16:18, 24 November 2007 (UTC)

legal status in US?

this section seems very contradictory of itself, can anyone tell me if lolicon is illegal or not? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.115.79.222 (talk) 01:22, 4 November 2007 (UTC)

According to http://www.news.com/2100-1038_3-6216660.html?tag=cnetfd.mt it depends. --Startcover 02:00, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

Besides that, wikipedians and wikipedia can't and don't give legal advice. If you're looking for legal advice, you should consult a lawyer. Bear in mind it's often difficult for even a lawyer to know if something is illegal or not since ultimately it depends how judges intepret the various laws involved (which likely includes the constitution) Nil Einne (talk) 17:59, 17 November 2007 (UTC)

New image

• Old image Image:Lolicon example.jpg
• New image Image:Lolicon Sample.png

A new image for lolicon was added by Nihonjoe today. The new image isn't as suggestive as the previous, but the quality of art is much higher. Also, the image is a free-use image. On the latter two points alone, I think I would be able to support this new image as the illustration for this article, even if it is not a perfect fit IMO. So what say the rest of you? --Farix (Talk) 00:16, 5 November 2007 (UTC)

The image was drawn by Kasuga, so there was a discussion on his talk page about it. This was as most suggestive as he wishes to go. We do have a dedicated license and if there is a need for clarification, we just ask him directly. But regardless of what image we choose, people will not be happy, as we saw by the first edit after the new image was added. I still support the new image. User:Zscout370 ^{(Return Fire)} 00:32, 5 November 2007 (UTC)

I strongly support the new image as the other one was butt ugly. That's my main reason for supporting it. That, and GFDL/CC-SA. ···日本穣^{? · Talk to Nihonjoe} 00:35, 5 November 2007 (UTC)

I'm no expert on the form, but it looks fine to me. I don't think the previous artist ever filed a persistent free use declaration with WP:OTRS; having a proper GFDL from the artist is an improvement. I see no downsides. Strong support. / edg ☺ ★ 01:27, 5 November 2007 (UTC)

This looks like a quality image, and it's good that it clearly fits the free-use criteria. It also helps that it's less suggestive, and thus will hopefully upset less users. As such, I support the use of the new image for the illustration of this article. ~ Homologeo 02:38, 5 November 2007 (UTC)

God bless you Kasuga Shii (tock) 08:45, 5 November 2007 (UTC)

This image looks unobjectionable and an improvement on the previous image. Thanks to the artist for contributing it. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 00:13, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

It is certainly an improvement. Thanks, SqueakBox 00:14, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

Less suggestive? I think it's way MORE suggestive, lol. I personally like the other one better, but this one is fine. Anchoress 02:06, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

It doesn't look like a lizard, that's all I care about. - 71.84.195.131 (talk) 13:58, 24 November 2007 (UTC)

I for one agree with the replacement, though this new image reflects the article more closely. --Animeronin (talk) 16:16, 24 November 2007 (UTC)

Discrepancy between two sections

At the beginning of the "In Japan" section, part reads "Kodomo no Jikan is an example of a series that, while not pornographic, draws on lolicon themes for its plot." Then later in the same section (under the controversy sub-heading), it reads "There are some female mangaka who draw lolicon, notably Kaworu Watashiya, author of the most controversial lolicon innuendo manga known in the west, Kodomo no Jikan...."

These seem to conflict with each other; if it's not pornographic and merely "draws on themes" then it does not make sense to say that it is "lolicon" later on, especially given that the article also claims that the word "lolicon" is used in the West to describe pornographic content. Furthermore, the Wikipedia page on Kodomo no Jikan seems to have quite the lively debate over whether or not it should be considered inappropriate, so it's wrong to claim one or the other on this page. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 131.216.102.86 (talk) 02:31, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

I don't see the contradiction. Kodomo no Jikan is definitely lolicon, though not pornographic (meaning no graphic (or non-graphic) sex or nudity. Even the bath scenes are pretty tame (pretty much what was shown in My Neighbor Totoro)). It's definitely a case of putting adult words into a child's mouth in the series, as the children in the series are far too knowledgeable and world-savvy for their ages. ···日本穣^{? · Talk to Nihonjoe} 03:43, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

still not sure about the legal status

I think the article is really vague in the legality in the US section, do you think it could just say if it is illegal on the bottom or not like with all the other countries? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.115.79.222 (talk) 03:50, 9 November 2007 (UTC)

The article can't say if sexually explicit lolicon artwork is legal or not because different courts have said vastly different and contradictory things about its legality. --Farix (Talk) 03:56, 9 November 2007 (UTC)

TOC float left

From Template:TOC float left:

Do not use this template to just force word wrap around the TOC, as this is inappropriate method of achieving this. Instead add a CSS class to your monobook.css file which will apply site wide.

This template should not be used when the result is to place the TOC in a visually poor location. A TOC that crosses a section division is probably a poor idea, if that can be avoided.

Unless the section in which the {{TOCleft}} is placed is long enough, the result may well be undesirable. Note particularly that if the TOC is floated left of a bulleted list, the bullets will be hidden.

It should only be used in cases where the TOC gets in the way of other content or is detrimental to the layout of the page; it should not simply be used for aesthetics since it tampers with the standard appearance of articles. See Help:Section#Floating the TOC the TOC for further guidelines.

I think that there's no overwhelming reason to float the TOC by these guidelines. —Disavian (^talk/_contribs) 17:28, 11 November 2007 (UTC)

Other than that it looks like crap to have that much blank space at the top of the article. ···日本穣^{? · Talk to Nihonjoe} 06:09, 15 November 2007 (UTC)

That's just the way Wikipedia articles look, and that's the way that the relevant guidelines suggest that we format them. This way reduces clutter, and emphasizes the lead section, something (I assume) important to illustrate the overall encyclopedic meaning of the topic to the average user without overwhelming them with information. —Disavian (^talk/_contribs) 06:22, 15 November 2007 (UTC)

Suggestion for another image replacement

While Kasuga's drawing certainly is an improvement from the previous one, I suggest replacing it with a better image. These images may or may not be copyrighted, but they are hosted in multiple websites already, and I think that a fair-use rationale is strong since it is using it like a quotation or excerpt. I think that the advantage of being a free-use image does not matter if both usages are legal anyways. I do not think that the current image is representative of lolicon. I do think that while this image is certainly improvement, that it certainly is of not enough quality, and I think my suggestions would also be less objectionable. Here are my suggestions: this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, and this. Again, I think that the present image is not much of a problem, but I think that it is not representative of lolicon, and I think that at least one of these images are better.--24.62.236.10 (talk) 01:29, 27 November 2007 (UTC)

The problem with this is copyright; per Wikipedia's free content rules, we absolutely cannot use an image here that isn't under a "free license", even if it's better, because a free alternative exists. So if you give us a list of images uploaded to Wikimedia Commons under free licenses, then your proposal will be more likely to succeed. —Disavian (^talk/_contribs) 01:32, 27 November 2007 (UTC)

All right, I'll look for free images.