Talk:David Hicks/Archive 3

Article still a defamation risk

While some parts of the article have improved in recent days, I feel that other parts are still a defamation risk. I think this is an article where writers should take extreme care, and probably attribute the facts to where they came from. Eg, "The US government claimed..." or "David Hicks' lawyers claimed..."

Many of the references used have been very weak. For example, the use of a quote from his father to verify some other fact about Hicks. Does his father really know? Ask yourselves, did the news organisation actually say the fact about Hicks, or did the news report use quotes from other people saying it?

We really need to be very careful what we say. I notice a new statement in the article that says Hicks undertook al Qaeda-sponsored military training. The word "sponsored" makes it sound like there was money or financial funding involved, but I can't find any suggestion from the reference used.

Controversial facts probably should have more than one recent reference to back them up.--Lester2 06:31, 3 October 2007 (UTC)

I've refined the wording in the lead about "al Qaeda-sponsored" to "undertook military training in al Qaeda-linked camps", on the basis that the sources do support that wording (from the US allegations to David Hicks' comments about meeting Osama bin Laden at the camps). --Brendan [ contribs ] 13:12, 3 October 2007 (UTC)

The Case That Never Dies

Here is an article in the Sydney Morning Herald about some of the details of the legal process which are beginning to surface: Richard Ackland, If it looks and smells like a corrupted legal process …, Sydney Morning Herald, 2007-10-26. I'm not suggesting that it is time to add this material to the article, as I think the official postmortem is only just beginning, one reference is not sufficient and the article is written during an election campaign. I'm putting this on the talk page so others can start building a body of evidence over the coming months, as more emerges. John Dalton 22:05, 25 October 2007 (UTC)

Richard Ackland is not the first one to write that the Hicks case was a miscarriage of justice fraught with political interference. There is already a considerable body of opinion along these lines. That's why it's always good to state both sides of the issue, including what the US and Australian governments claimed (attributed to them) as well as what the opponents claim (attributed to them). --Lester 22:24, 25 October 2007 (UTC)

I agree there are lots of opinions floating around, which is why I am suggesting that editors should wait for the opinions to dissipate, and facts to come to the fore, before going too mad with including things in the article. I don't think it is sufficient to add two conflicting opinions to an article and call it balanced. Better to remove the layer of opinion and lay the facts bare. Here I am guessing that the facts will take some time to appear in the face of obstruction from those who would rather they not be known. John Dalton 02:21, 26 October 2007 (UTC)

Good call, John. The facts need to be reliably established, re: political interference, and that may not quite have happened yet as far as exactly who did/said what. The source piece reporting political interference in the Hicks case, on which most other recent reportage appears to be based, was an October 2007 article At Gitmo, No Room for Justice in Harper's Magazine by Scott Horton, who wrote also an article The Plea Bargain of David Hicks in April 2007 when the plea bargain was made public. Both articles link Judge Susan Crawford to Cheney (verifiable fact) and assert that John Howard sought Cheney's assistance in expediting the Hicks case (not verifiable so far as I can tell). This most recent article quotes an unnamed US Military officer as confirming political interference, which Chief Prosecutor Moe Davis also cited as reasons for his own recent resignation. --Brendan [ contribs ] 15:13, 27 October 2007 (UTC)

Prester John deleted the abovementioned information from the article lead in November 2007 citing style grounds. I have reinstated a minimal version of it in the lead and shifted the bulk of the original referenced content into the article body, positioned appropriately with the resignation of Moe Davis under an appropriately renamed subsection title "Allegations of political manipulation". --Brendan [ contribs ] 03:58, 16 December 2007 (UTC)

Point of View

This is an interesting issue to deal with, as far as POV goes. I've made a few changes that point out mass media reproduced articles that cite his legal team stating that he accepted a plea bargain to get out of 'this hell' of Guantanamo bay which have been reverted, even though they haven't been POV in any way. However, I've come to a bit of a moral dilemma as to how to proceed with what POV is with this issue.

I do not believe that any educated person can, prima facie, induce any evidence that Hicks is guilty of any crime. Not one member of the judiciary anywhere, apart from his prosecutors, have ever even joked that a conviction could be attained given the circumstances, and the invention of the crime post facto would have been a major point of contention and further the ability of the court to even have jurisdiction was farcically driven and would come undone under minor scrutiny.

There is significant reasonable doubt on all facts involved, so we can deduce from this that of the crimes he is innocent. Whether he is innocent or not is irrelivant, but as far as the law goes he would have been found innocent had he not pled guilty.

I've had much experience with prosecutors in the past and plea bargaining is a way of life. Prosecutors, as well as all law enforcement, work on conviction basis. To attain a budget, one must show X amount of convictions to prove the 'system is working', which is unfortunate because it's not about justice but about production line convictions. Plea bargains are a way of life, and getting someone who has been wrongfully imprisoned for a crime that didn't exist until you invented it well afterwards to explain away their imprisonment without trial or charge, only to then get them to plead to 'time served' in an attempt to justify what has gone on is a massive success for the prosecution. It brings legitimacy to their actions for many of the uneducated public, whilst simultaniously preventing potential reparations and damages suits.

However, this article reads as though matter-of-factly David Hicks is a terrorist and was convicted fairly of such a crime, which is not supported by the evidence presented in any way, shape or form.

So we have the fact that he could not be convicted by any reasonable court and the fact under duress, as stated by him and his defence, he accepted a plea to get back to Australia and out of a cage to deal with. That being said, I do not believe that this article currently reflects the truth of the matter but represents what the prosecution were intending the world to percieve which is not in any way substantiated by evidence or fact.

I don't wish to flag this article NPOV or start such drama, as I'm sure we have people very passionate from both sides of the fence here who believe that presenting him in X or Y fashion is important to their political existance, however to us people who don't really give a toss about agenda and just kind of have more interest in the facts and neutrality it poses quite a paradox.

Any suggestions on how to proceed with this? Jachin (talk) 14:51, 30 December 2007 (UTC)

Thoughts

My thoughts on this are mixed. He was captured unarmed so no evidence there and also all they had were some blurred pictures of him. He either pleaded guilty or they falsely accused him. Those pictures were extremely blurred so I dont know. I would like to hear your opinions.Smallkid620 (talk) 01:49, 8 January 2008 (UTC)

Criminal Info box

A 'criminal' infobox has been placed in this article and removed as "POV" by another editor. Does a criminal info box improve this article? Is Hicks' criminality in need of more weight in this article? Convictiion of a criminal offense doesnt automatically mean that a criminal info box is or should be used. Rudolph Hess, Nelson Mandela, Ned Kelly, Jesus Christ and Mahatma Ghandi were all convicted criminals whose articles do not have criminal info boxes - presumably because their articles are better without them. I lean towards no info box as the amount and quality of sources casting doubt on the method of Hicks conviction is substantial and not reflected in the summary provided by an info box.

Others thoughts? SmithBlue (talk) 05:51, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

My thought is a "Criminal Infobox" has no place on Wikipedia and should be removed from every article. "Criminal" is a subjective judgement. Wikipedia articles should state the facts and let the reader make their own judgement about criminality. John Dalton (talk) 10:08, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

As the removing editor, I agree SmithBlue & John Dalton. No Criminal infobox. It's little more than a POV sticker. Let the article tell the full story. --Brendan [ contribs ] 13:06, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

SMH Afganistan allegations

The article http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2004/06/11/1086749867034.html "The US charges David Hicks" SMH. repeatedly makes clear that these are "allegations". To state these allegations as fact solely from this source does not seem comply with WP:BLP. Please discuss here why you might think WP:BLP does not apply to this material. SmithBlue (talk) 02:24, 13 January 2008 (UTC)

There are multiple references that cite Hick's as training at these camps, the SMH is not the be all and end all of wikipedia writing style, common sense at some point has to prevail. Hicks wrote many letters to family members detailing his training in these camps, multiple witnesses place Hicks at the camps, Hick's father claims he was at the camps. The only absence here is the claim from anyone that Hicks did not attend these camps. SmithBlue indicated that we needed a reference that placed him in the camps, I provided it with reference number 6 (among many) that states

DEBBIE WHITMONT: From the start, David Hicks has co-operated with all his interrogators. He's openly admitted he trained with al-Qaeda and saw Osama bin Laden about eight times. Four Corners can confirm, that in Guantanamo, Hicks signed a statement written by American military investigators that includes the following, "I believe that al-Qaeda camps provided a great opportunity for Muslims like myself from all over the world to train for military operations and jihad. I knew after six months that I was receiving training from al-Qaeda, who had declared war on numerous countries and peoples." That statement, signed after 15 months detention, and apparently not based on tape-recorded interviews, will certainly be challenged. But almost a year earlier, also at Guantanamo, Australian Federal Police tape-recorded a revealing, and seemingly voluntary, five hour interview with David Hicks. In it, Hicks tells his story. And tonight, for the first time, Four Corners is making that story public. It begins in 1998 with an ad in an Adelaide newspaper. Horse trainers wanted to work in Japan. Hicks spent three months in Japan as a horse trainer. When he got back to Adelaide, he found the trip had changed him.

He reverted back under his policy of WP:IDONTLIKEIT. Prester John ^{-(Talk to the Hand)} 02:34, 13 January 2008 (UTC)

Poorly evidenced "theory of mind" there. I reverted back because the source does not support the "facts" you use it to support (ie - "learning guerilla warfare, weapons training, including landmines, kidnapping techniques and assassination methods.") It is very important that your edits are based on what is actually in the source. SmithBlue (talk) 02:54, 13 January 2008 (UTC)

(Clarifying that discusion above is about ABC Four Corners http://www.abc.net.au/4corners/content/2005/s1494795.htm "The Case of David Hicks) SmithBlue (talk) 03:04, 13 January 2008 (UTC)

I included the ABC source as it better reflects reality. Let's call a spade a spade. I challenge you to find ONE single person who denies that Hick's trained at these camps. And go. Prester John ^{-(Talk to the Hand)} 04:18, 13 January 2008 (UTC)

The challenge here is to provide accurate sources for material we present in Wikipedia. I would be surprised if you can't find a reputable source. And you can legitimately include what you find with a reputable source.SmithBlue (talk) 05:42, 13 January 2008 (UTC)

So in essence you deny that the ABC is a reliable source. Here it is again

DEBBIE WHITMONT: From the start, David Hicks has co-operated with all his interrogators. He's openly admitted he trained with al-Qaeda and saw Osama bin Laden about eight times. Four Corners can confirm, that in Guantanamo, Hicks signed a statement written by American military investigators that includes the following, "I believe that al-Qaeda camps provided a great opportunity for Muslims like myself from all over the world to train for military operations and jihad. I knew after six months that I was receiving training from al-Qaeda, who had declared war on numerous countries and peoples." That statement, signed after 15 months detention, and apparently not based on tape-recorded interviews, will certainly be challenged. But almost a year earlier, also at Guantanamo, Australian Federal Police tape-recorded a revealing, and seemingly voluntary, five hour interview with David Hicks. In it, Hicks tells his story. And tonight, for the first time, Four Corners is making that story public. It begins in 1998 with an ad in an Adelaide newspaper. Horse trainers wanted to work in Japan. Hicks spent three months in Japan as a horse trainer. When he got back to Adelaide, he found the trip had changed him.

Prester John ^{-(Talk to the Hand)} 18:59, 13 January 2008 (UTC)

This discusion is about accurately reflecting the content of sources. I have replied further on your talk page. SmithBlue (talk) 01:26, 14 January 2008 (UTC)

Agreed, SmithBlue. Prester, handwaving won't change the fact that your ABC quote above says nothing of "learning guerilla warfare, weapons training, including landmines, kidnapping techniques and assassination methods." These were allegations by U.S. military prosecutors. The sources that mention those activities all attribute them thusly. Please refrain from rewriting history. --Brendan [ contribs ] 12:26, 15 January 2008 (UTC)

Terry Hicks reads poetry in video

I watched the video to see this, and I can't find it anywhere in the video. Any thoughts?--Lopakhin (talk) 12:53, 14 January 2008 (UTC)

The plots of the Jews

"He denounces the plots of the Jews to divide Muslims ..." - can someone who has watched the video re-word this so that we're describing, rather than promoting, Hicks' POV? Andjam (talk) 02:43, 15 January 2008 (UTC)

I've watched the video again and it's not there, so I've commented it out. If someone's got the right citation, please provide it.--Lopakhin (talk) 11:59, 15 January 2008 (UTC)

detention: "without valid charge by the US gov under suspicion of involvement" or "by the US gov for involvement"

Pls discuss here what is better included in the article lead about circumstances of detention. SmithBlue (talk) 02:14, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

Unless we can show a competent court dismissing the charges, then we cannot say that they were invalid. Legal opinion, untested in court, is not fact, and we should not mislead our readers. --Pete (talk) 02:56, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

I think that quoting legal opinion is valid. Yes, the United States convicted him for terrorism. However, I think it is reasonable to quote the myriad of legal heavyweights that say the Military Commission system is flawed, unjust and invalid. It's such a controversial case that both sides must be given space in the article, especially in the intro. Sentence #3 should briefly outline the gist of that criticism, relating to the considerable legal opinion that the charges and conviction were unjust.Lester 03:06, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

Opinion must be clearly labelled as such. It's just like a legal opinion that someone is innocent - it carries no legal weight, and the fact of innocence or guilt lies on judge and jury. Or the defendant, if he pleads guilty to the charges. You do understand this, don't you? --Pete (talk) 04:26, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

Great to see that this issue is so easily resolved. 2006 "the Supreme Court of the United States held that military commissions set up by the Bush administration to try detainees at Guantanamo Bay lack "the power to proceed because its structures and procedures violate both the Uniform Code of Military Justice and the four Geneva Conventions signed in 1949." cite [Hamdan v. Rumsfeld, Supreme Court Syllabus, pg. 4., point 4.] SmithBlue (talk) 04:33, 23 January 2008 (UTC) That makes no sense. If the charges were invalid then they would not have proceeded to the stage where Hicks entered a guilty plea. --Pete (talk) 18:27, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

As it explains in the article, after the first charges were found unlawful (see Hamdan v. Rumsfeld) a new law was passed and new charges were brought in Feb 2007 under the Military Commissions Act of 2006. Hicks pleaded guilty and was convicted under this new law. So from his time of imprisonment in 17 December 2001 till February 3, 2007 makes 5 years without valid charge. I suggest that continuing to edit the article is disruptive if you have not yet read the it. The lead especially summarises the content of the article. Please read then article discuss your concerns here and then edit if you see fit from a place of knowledge. SmithBlue (talk) 23:19, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

I see from your latest edit summ that you consider something to be "opinion". Please detail here exactly what that is. The Hamdan source you removed shows that no valid charges were made against Hicks before July 2006 because the set-up was unlawful. Hicks as the article shows was not charged again until Feb 2007. Where is the opinion in this? SmithBlue (talk) 23:27, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

The line which was added by user:SmithBlue (and quickly deleted) about Hicks being held for years without a valid charge was useful information. Maybe the sentence structure could have been reworded, but the information was factual, referenced and important, and should be included somewhere in the intro. Lester 19:44, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

OK, I agree with that. But giving our readers the impression that he was just an innocent swept up by the military and tortured into confessing is giving an incorrect impression, and SmithBlue's wording leans towards that. A reader might think that he was held for five years without any charge at all. It's important to note that the original system was thrown out by the court, but how to summarise this in the lead? --Pete (talk) 00:53, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

How about "after five years detention without valid charge[1] by the United States government as an illegal enemy combatant," —Preceding unsigned comment added by SmithBlue (talk • contribs) 02:00, 24 January 2008 (UTC) I don't think you quite see the problem. Having a confusing lead isn't a good thing. I'll restore it to the last consensual version and we can discuss the wording here and find a good way of saying it. I think that the length of detention and the fact that the process was thrown out by the court are both very important here, but misleading or confusing our readers is not what we should be doing. --Pete (talk) 20:55, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

lead: explicitly state the charge on which he was convicted?

I think it would improve the lead if it explicitly stated the charge that he was convicted of. Other ideas? SmithBlue (talk) 05:05, 23 January 2008 (UTC) Also "suspicion of terrorism" does not describe the US govs mind/stated purpose/beliefs. (As in the US government did not? hold him on "suspision of terrorism") Memory says that he was being held as an "illegal enemy combatant". What would be better from the sources available? SmithBlue (talk) 23:32, 23 January 2008 (UTC)