Talk:Anonymous (hacker group)

Author here.

Author here. I just wanted to thank everyone who has shown interest in the article, whether they liked what they saw or otherwise. I began writing the article in direct response to the recent Project Chanology protests, but knew of Anonymous' prior existence. I do feel that it is a significant, yet poorly documented presence—if I did not feel it was worthy of inclusion into Wikipedia, I would not have started it.

I knew early on that writing Anonymous was going to be a challenge. Gathering non-news sources was particularly problematic (I hope that the article does not reference only journalistic material). I admit that my first effort was not perfectly written—that's where you all come in. Many of you know a lot more about Anonymous, even if you aren't privy to its underpinnings. You are the ones I expected to expand and improve the article. If not, then people like the ones who proposed this article's deletion will only help spread ignorance. Unlike the generations before us, events that matter to us don't wait for things like academic notability; they happen faster than even we are capable of realizing. — Nahum Reduta [talk|contribs] 09:03, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

Redirect

While the current article text isn't properly sourced the amount of sources on Anonymous is staggering. If you want it deleted follow the procedures and knock off the delete by redirect. BJ^Talk 15:45, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

News sources

Here's a quote another article and it has news sources and stuff. Should be reused here. "January 31, 2008, KTTV Fox 11 News based in Los Angeles, California put out a report about organized cyber-bullying on sites like Stickam by people who call themselves "/b/rothas". The site had previously put out report on July 26, 2007, about a subject that partly featured cyberbullying titled "hackers on steroids"."

Also Project Chanology has tons of news sources. William Ortiz (talk) 17:12, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

Oh and Hal Turner has sources and some bits about Hal Turner need mention here. William Ortiz (talk) 21:44, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

Internet forum vs. Imageboard

I'm not sure about changing it but Anonymous always applies to imageboard users. Comments? BJ^Talk 18:56, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

Not only is it important to note that the "Anonymous" group congregates around imageboards, but that the very nature of this medium has contributed to the rise and development of internet culture, and within internet culture, what I would refer to as an anonymous centric subculture. The constant bombardment of users with images that convey a message as significant as the text, or more so, has created a grassroots viral advertising space. Anonymous is not just to be understood as a group. This group also has a host of esoteric taglines, cliches', injokes, rules and ethical codes of behavior, and a history which is venerated (i.e. Never 4get 7-12-2006!) by long time "anons". Being a combination of multiple mediums, the internet is the only medium that can virally spread these as rapidly. The subculture of Anonymous would not have come into existence if not for imageboards.

The proliferation of these cliches, or cultural viruses referred to as memes, has had an unseen hand in spurring on many of the internet phenomenon documented months later by mainstream media, and never attributed to Anonymous as the source of the "lulz". This will be the greatest problem for this article. I have no doubt that Anonymous deserves a high rating in importance, at the least, but due to a lack of verifiable sources it will never be recognized as anything beyond low (maybe mid, if project chanology goes further in destabilizing Scientology). This is not to say the history of Anonymous is not documented, but we can hardly use oral history and Encyclopedia Dramatica as respectable sources. Personally, I think there should be papers written by sociologists on this phenomenon. As a viral subculture almost exclusively removed from meatspace for the early years of its inception, Anonymous has had an unique development, and it's future will be utterly unpredictable.--Cast (talk) 23:34, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

I made a new section to make note of the potential use of 4chanarchive as a source. Kakama (talk) 16:07, 19 February 2008 (UTC)

Yeah, well, an imageboard is a more specific type of internet forum, and the anonymous feature is not limited to imageboards. It might be best to state that Anonymous' culture developed around imageboards, a type of internet forum that focuses on images more than text, dedicated to the topic "Random".

Anonymous in society

Should we not also add to this article that Anonymous has now grown to encompass more than just forums and Imageboards? That Anonymous has now come to grow into a grassroots activist group, where many of the participators of Project Chanology are not just members of the Anonymous subculture inside the chans; but instead are, for a large part, members of the public as well? Many of whom have made an effort to stay away from the chans. This sort of claim can be evidenced through the participation of the February 10th, 2008 protests at: Wikinews international report: "Anonymous" holds anti-Scientology protests worldwide.

I think it would be beneficial to add this to the article because the group does not seem to be losing interest, but in fact, is gaining. If we are to accurately maintain this article it should be noted that Anonymous now is more than just hackers and 'anonymous' posters on forums and Imageboards. - Joshua McNeil (talk) 04:25, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

• It is also notable that much of partyvan.info can be used to reference members of the general public and their growing role in Anonymous. It is currently maintained by members of the Anonymous chan administrators, primarily of eBaums. Historically accurate and they have often times confessed to whatever negative facts may be associated with them: if the accusations are in fact true.

This is also the main site for organization and participation in Project Chanology. - Joshua McNeil (talk) 04:36, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

-Joshua McNeil (talk) 04:37, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

This thinking is wrong on several points. Anons who are taking part in Project Chanology are hardly making efforts to "stay away from chans". This can be understood on several levels. While perhaps they are not associating Project Chanology with any particular image board, and are often referring to Ebaumsworld as their center of gravity, in an attempt to shift blame from their beloved boards, this is not new behavior. This is standard operating procedure for raids. They've done this since their earliest Habbo raids. Anons, as individuals, are still associating with each other on boards.

Further, they are not avoiding "chan subculture". Many picket signs referenced memes, and a costumed individual dressed as Raptor Jesus made an appearance at the San Francisco protest. The constant use of EFG masks (yes, I know they are V masks, but the meme is tied to EFG) is yet another act of embracing *chan subculture even when in the public sphere. An outreach video calling for the 2-10-08 event did hand out "rules of engagement," amongst which was the insistence that memes not be used, as they would alienate the public. This, obviously, was ignored en masses. Anonymous is not disassociating form the *chans, and never will. The concept of Anon is intrinsic to the *chans. It is, however, true that Anon exists outside of this subculture now.

Further, do not make the mistake of buying into mass media representations of Anonymous. The group was never comprised solely, or by a majority of Hackers. Hackers have always comprised a minority, if not a vast minority. The tactic most often employed by Anonymous during online "Raids" is that of the DDoS (distributed denial of service) attack. This does not involve any hacking whatsoever. It is an act of overwhelming a webserver's bandwidth with massive packets of data. Media outlets simplified this as an act of "hacking."

No actual intrusion of the Scientology websites was executed by the majority of Anonymous. It is possible that a small minority of Anonymous did hack Scientology computers to acquire private documents, but it is highly unlikely this was achieved by hacking websites. I can't imagine why Scientology management would keep confidential documents on their websites. Scientology servers may have been hacked. As it is highly unlikely any Anon will ever step forward, we will never know.

I think this article can't just refer to Anonymous' interaction with society. It also has to address their subculture, explain how the concept of "anonymous" developed, and why. We'll eventually have to pull up the code of Anonymous, and explain each. The hard part of all this, as I noted above, will be finding verifiable sources. You note that partyvan.info can be used, but this is already known of and rejected. The problem is this is a wiki, and unacceptable as a source.--Cast (talk) 05:24, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

You seem to have missed my point. I wasn't solely referring to the Anonymous of the chans. I was referring to the general public and people who have simply adopted the pseudonym Anonymous as an umbrella name for a new activist group. You've also assumed that I'm unfamiliar with the chans and that I'm "buying into mass media". This is not the case. I know well that many of Anonymous, while 'channers', have little to no experience in "hacking". I suppose though that I was rather unclear as to what I meant. So my apologies, I've now clarified. Forgive me for suggesting partyvan.info be used. I hadn't realized. Summarily, I never said that this article refer to just Anonymous' interaction with society. But instead it should be noted that Anonymous has grown past the chans, even if the chans are still a fact hitherto synonymous with Anonymous. - Joshua McNeil (talk) 09:27, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

Use of the Partyvan Wiki is to facilitate a perment source of knowledge, just as ED and Wikichan exist; it is just the /i/ part of that. Our general reactions and actions within society are not an action of growing past the chans at all. Anonymous is not an activist group or some sort of hacking clan, as the article notes well. Anonymous are imageboard users who upon occasion do things in real life or on other forums. Is not the eBaums World user who raids a website (like they so often do) still an eBaumber?

Formation of Anonymous - 4chan, 7chan etc PLEASE USE THESE SOURCES

"Anonymous is less an organization than a loose confederation of Internet message board readers and IRC chat network users. Sites like 4chan.org (warning: content may not be work-safe) brought together thousands of Internet users with a variety of interests and vocations. Anonymous seldom meet physically in large numbers outside of their message boards and chat channels. The February 10 "raids" presented one of the first examples of major Anonymous movement outside of the Internet." cnet.com

"Anonymous – a loose coalition of Internet denizens and so-called “hackers” who tend to congregate at Web sites such as 4chan.org..." [statenews.com

"#4chan group “Anonymous” has published a definitive attack on what is known as the Church of Scientology." blog

"Immediately the IRC chat room hosted on 7chan.org (currently down) was filled with calls to stop using the program, and the 900 people in the chat room returned to their disorderly conversation about whether they should be flooding Digg with anti-Scientology links or making harassing phone calls to local Scientology branches." wired.com

"Anonymous congregates on the net at various hangouts such as 7chan.org (NSFW) and partyvan.info and sundry IRC channels. The group usually amuses itself by stealing passwords to downloading sites and finding ways to harass online communities that its members disdain. They were last seen on THREAT LEVEL when a Los Angeles Fox News affiliate ran a story that hilariously implied the group's arsenal included exploding vans." wired.com

Hopefully those can be used in the article. 202.161.71.161 (talk) 10:14, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

Members of anonymous message boards known collectively as Anonymous have gathered together in an effort to thwart the Church of Scientology from carrying about their usual business. These message boards are typically dominated by pornographic images, gross-out pictures and inside jokes about computers or video games diamondbackonline.com202.161.71.161 (talk) 11:18, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

Isn't the internet great? Anyway, this is an important point to note: that Anonymous culture is rife with dark humor. I've found a citation for this. Two (former?) anons dropped their dox and took part in a dual interview with CBC, and comment on the race bating, homophobia, shock humor, and also the past behavior of Anonymous in pranks, like Habbo Raids. It's the first time Anonymous has addressed these issues frankly with the media, to my knowledge. The audio is available here.--Cast (talk) 16:12, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

I'm hoping you are reading this, the links provided can lead to problems from the CoS(Church Of Scientology) I do not care if they are posted in the ladder but they can try to take these sites over(by illegal "hacker" groups) and input scripts to log IP's or reroute the page to one of their sites and trace any one in this group. With this stated let me explain a bit more, this church has put out a payment for IP of internet critics before, and I have no single blacked thought in my head that they are planning this again. Show being that let me show you what they will do; 1. They hire a "hacker group". 2. The "Hackers" reroute the page to Scientology.org 3. Scientologists trace said IP's 4. They try to ruin the lifes of these people.

Remove the links, add them when the protests and all are over. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.127.16.150 (talk) 22:20, 28 February 2008 (UTC)

Previous notability - PLEASE USE to improve article

Global news report on Forcand, mentioning Anonymous's involvement. youtube.com

Fox11 new report on Anonymous, the "internet hate machine" from 2007. youtube.com - also mentions Harry Potter raids and HabboHotel raids. 202.161.71.161 (talk) 11:00, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

This story also may be relevant, but I can't access it w/o paying. torontosun.com 202.161.71.161 (talk) 11:29, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

Fair use rationale for Image:AnonymousDemotivator.jpg

Image:AnonymousDemotivator.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Wikipedia:Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to insure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.

If there is other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images lacking such an explanation can be deleted one week after being tagged, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.

BetacommandBot (talk) 18:49, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

Someone needs to contact the author of the "Oh F---, the internet is here" photo and get it in here, possibly without the caption. http://img219.imageshack.us/img219/259/1202666100024xy5.jpg Z00r (talk) 10:03, 19 February 2008 (UTC)

There are already plenty of images with V masks freely available for use, if that's all you want.--Cast (talk) 10:08, 19 February 2008 (UTC)

No no, the "Oh F--,..." has looooongcat and the afroguy, which are much more representative of Anonymous the group as compared to generic photos of the chanology protests. EDIT, it's got sad panda meme as well. Z00r (talk) 10:31, 19 February 2008 (UTC)

Well I suppose I can't argue with the unusually concentrated appearance of memes in that photo. I stand corrected.--Cast (talk) 11:13, 19 February 2008 (UTC)

Please don't delete

Hey guys my username is Floridanon. I'm a noob here as far as editing and I just signed up to be a Wikipedia editor. I really don't know how to edit yet but this is important to me: Please do not delete this "Anonymous" article. I was involved in the Chanology Project's "Anonymous" Church of Scientolgy protests here in Clearwater, Florida. I saw some of the things that were written on the Wikipedia.org "Anonymous" site and they're just not all true. This group was concieved as a result of The Church forcing YouTube to delete the now-infamous internal CoS video where Tom Cruise said "only a $cientologist will help a car accident victim." When Co$ found out, they immediately threatened YouTube with legal action and YT removed it. At that point, what is known as the group "Anonymous" was concieved. We put out top-rated and viewed videos on YT calling for worldwide protests against Co$ and last Sunday, the 10th of February, they happened. All over the world. Nearly 10,000 of us strong. Some wearing Guy Fawkes masks, some wearing bandanas, some wearing smiles only. This is big. We're going out again on 3/15 again to protest the celebration of Church founder L. Ron Hubbard's birthday. I myself am in Clearwater, FL...not too far from Jimbo Wales in St. Pete. This is the "spiritual HQ" of The Church. Now there are plenty of "Anonymous" sites everywhere from YouTube to the Insurgent Wiki to Encyclopedia Dramatica. But this Wikipedia is the only place where one can get ubaised information. I've been using this for years, I just never tried to edit or anything and I'd rather be silent than screw anything up. But hear me out: we will not go away from our cause. We really belive that The Church is an evil cult and want to bring it down. Look at the facts: not one "Anonymous" was ticketed or arrested in the protests worldwide, from what I know. I have references and sources and all that but I don't know how to do this and I'm just so tired from fighting this cult. Can somebody help me please? OH SHIT now wikipedia wants to delete the Project Chanology page! I just opened another browser and saw it. I just get the sinking feeling that the Church of $cientology is behind all this. Well I've made my case. Sorry I rambled on but like I said I'm a newbie. Feel free to email me @ floridanon@live.com later. Right now I need to sleep. Thank you for your time. Floridanon (talk)

Reincerted above statement to allow understanding of below conversationCoffeepusher (talk) 20:23, 21 February 2008 (UTC)

As you said, WP is a source for unbiased information. As such, the best way you can help (IMHO) is to help find sources to back up claims of previous anonymous actions (Hal Turner raid, Stickman raid), etc. Any past media coverage. You erroneously stated that Anonymous was formed in response to the Co$, and that is not true, based on available sources that predate the conflict. In addition, as a member of Anonymous, it would help the articles and your cause to increase media awareness of 3/15 events.121.44.227.79 (talk) 23:24, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

This anon speaks true things. Find sources and contribute. And don't be afraid of messing up. Be bold, and if any editors get on you, just remind them not to bite. And yes, learning the history of Anon would be good. Anonymous, as a phenomenon, goes back to about '03, and picked up in '04. That's when the green cartoon characature was created, and the motto "Anonymous Does Not Forgive" was coined. Also, don't worry about the article actually being deleted. I'm not even bothering to weigh in, because the discussion is obviously in favor of keeping the article. The nomination for deletion wasn't even that serious to begin with.--Cast (talk) 23:46, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

Floridanon - you clearly know NOTHING about Anonymous if you think it began as a protest against Scientology. Kindly GTFO and LURK MOAR —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.152.101.240 (talk) 11:09, 14 February 2008(UTC)

^He's right. Anon has been around for years...are you even vaguely familiar with the Hal, Habbo, 'V would never do it', or Second Life raids (plus tons of others)? 65.81.133.214 (talk) 05:41, 17 February 2008 (UTC)

and you guys know NOTHING about Wikipedia baced on these comments...so mabie you should kindly verce yourselves on wikipedia policies, not quote encyclopedia dramatica jargen, and pay attention rather than WP:BITE seeing as how you are both newcomers yourselves. No personal attacks, it dosn't help anything.

Floridanon, Welcome! its already been said, but go through the policys of wikipedia and start editing. The most important thing I can tell you is look for WP:VS for ALL your edits and you will save yourself a lot of trouble. Glad to have youCoffeepusher (talk) 06:19, 19 February 2008 (UTC)

Hummmmm...you both seem to be vandals as well...go figureCoffeepusher (talk) 06:30, 19 February 2008 (UTC)

What happened to the article?

The article was much longer. What happened to all the content which was deleted without saying anything on the talk page? Titanium Dragon (talk) 06:46, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

If you check the History tab, you can see past edits, and notes an editor might leave to explain the change. Seems someone felt the information provided didn't deserve to stay for various reasons. I agree that large edits should be discussed, but everything that is done can be quickly undone, so there usually isn't a problem to jump the gun and make a change without discussion. It's all a question of context. This article is new enough that nothing editors slaved over for hours upon hours was lost, and it can all still be accessed if we need to retrieve it. For now, I want to focus on getting more sources and then adding information as we go. That way, there can be no argument against additions. (Also, to easily make a new topic, hit the + tab, next to History.)--Cast (talk) 06:52, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

Hell, I just checked your user page. You seem to be more experienced than I was led to believe. This article has been receiving a lot of attention from new editors, so I jumped to conclusions.--Cast (talk) 06:59, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

I was more curious why User:Sceptre didn't say anything on the talk page about it. I don't mind that he removed a bunch of it, as a lot of it was poorly sourced (Wikichan is NOT a RS, nor is YouTube) but there's currently a deletion discussion going on and there was a lot of rescuable information. Its alright, probably a good way to get it sourced; I already found good sources for what Anonymous is and why they wore masks (though I'm currently looking for a site to source the V for Vendetta connection). Titanium Dragon (talk) 07:13, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

Would it be acceptable to source an image? Because Anonymous used screen captures from the final scene of the V for Vendetta film in fliers advertising the 2-10-08 event. You could simply say Anonymous encouraged the connection by including the imagery in their advertisements.--Cast (talk) 07:54, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

/b/ tards

can all the b tards stop stop vandalizing this page all the content keeps getting deleted. All the links, eg http://www.asyd.org was gone and was a very informative site, I learnt a lot from it. Why is the only link 4chan? /b/ tards are constantly destorying this article Unclekev (talk) 22:31, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

You have no idea how unwise it is to make a request for restraint from a 'tard. You're irritation only brings them pleasure.--Cast (talk) 04:14, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

/b/tards ARE anonymous. all edits by them are evidence to the organization's disruptiveness. This article Should not be on wikipedia, it has exactly the same problems as the GNAA article, if not more. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.134.64.195 (talk) 21:39, 17 February 2008 (UTC)

What needs to be said about Anonymous?

This is a rather brief article currently, and I think there's more information about them out there beyond project chanology (such as the Fox report, though its reliability is probably more dubious than Wikichan's, sadly). What needs to be included in this article?

• Imageboards traditionally taken to be a part of anonymous?
• Past controversy? (The Fox thing, maybe, maybe some of the other stuff they've been involved with which has made newspapers?)
• Culture?
• Demographics?

Not sure what all we want/need. Titanium Dragon (talk) 03:39, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

I think that list covers it just fine, though not in that order. One distinction is that the image boards are not "part of Anonymous". Anonymous was birthed by them, makes up the majority of their users, and the subculture has expanded thanks to them, but they now exist outside of them easily thanks to saturation of user content in Web 2.0. An example of the relationship is that Project Chanology came into existence on an imageboard, but was moved off it and is now handled on wikis, a forum, and youtube. From my posts it should be obvious I want to talk about culture, which is really two things: Anonymous subculture, and its Impact on internet culture. That's a distinction that needs to be made because Anonymous has always shunned exposure into the limelight before Project Chanology, and must now work to rehabilitate its image by explaining its members are ordinary people.

Rules 1 & 2; shifting blame to eBaumsWorld; telling others to xenophobically "LURKMOAR!" rather than explain things; the in-joke that projects the image of a cryptic and mysteries entity, rather than to explain the when-who-what-where-why-how's of the group; the end result of all this is that they have their own subculture within the internet that is easily misunderstood. Since Anonymous wouldn't speak for itself, outsiders would and we get descriptions of "hackers on steroids" or "cyber terrorists". Only now is Anonymous stepping forward to talk about itself on radio and television interviews.

We want to explain that, and those things you list, and could have had them already. The knowledge is documented, screen capped, and posted on their own wikis, some of which are more reliable than others. It's just a question of citation. We can't cite wikis, even the reliable ones. And the media is unreliable. An example of this convoluted problem would be cyber bullying. We've got the Fox11 report, but that was sensationalist. A better article would be one on internet bullying that references the Patriotic Nigras, a tiny group within Anonymous that struck out at Habbo. Any citation of that article would need to explain the connection, but there is no mention of it. You get better information from history essays on lurkmore.com and encyclopedia dramatica. At any rate, you can't get verification for it, so Anonymous can't be said to be involved even though we know it is. I'll give you another example: Chocolate Rain. When the artist of that song says he thinks 4chan is responsible for his success, we know that's because of Anonymous – but we can't say it because the media doesn't understand enough to report it. As you mention, this is why wikichan is more reliable than Fox11.

If we restrict ourselves to just "respectable" sources, we are left with either inaccurate articles; maybe less than 5 useful Anon interviews written post-Project Chanology; or articles about different subjects that talks about the repercussions of Anonymous without acknowledging the relationship to Anonymous. Wikipedia's rules, mainstream ignorance, and Anonymous's desire to be an incoherent hate machine conspire to shoot this article in the foot.--Cast (talk) 05:02, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

4chan is a cult like Scientology is. it has its own jargon and memes like scientology does. But at least it's FREE! 128.6.175.21 (talk) 06:27, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

Anonymous is not a cult, fgt. The term cult implies all kinds of things, but I think we can all agree that a mass of people who all choose to act together voluntarily without the need of a leader of demogouge a cult. Also you missed the point entirely. This is an article about Anonymous not 4chan. If you were to ask the avereage veteran anon what he thinks about 4chan, you normally get a reply that raged from average disgust to full blown hatred.

It is thus my conclusion that you sir, are a moron. Cheers,
124.40.47.163 (talk) 06:36, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

Oh, and cast, as a member of the PN, I can tell you that we have preciseley jack shit to do with Habbo. The group you're thinking of is poolsclosed.us... The PN are active in Second Life. Cheers,
124.40.47.163 (talk) 06:38, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

Oh, right, the boxes with the flags on them is from second life. Thanks for the correction.--Cast (talk) 06:57, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

Anonymous is merely people who want free information, as it should be. Co$ and the Phelps clan in Topeka, now those are cults. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Lordshadovar (talk • contribs) 08:45, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

Hi all, I've never done anything on here before, but I had a thought. Anon is an collective that is very different from anything else that would be covered. Let me assure you, the only accurate sources of information that you will get will be from Wikichan on a lot of Anon's exploits. Encyclopedia Dramatica works to some extent as well, but Wikichan is better for pure information. These places are repositories of information put out by Anonymous itself. I would suggest a special section to the article dedicated to supposed exploits of Anonymous that cannot be truly confirmed under which Wikichan and maybe even ED would be allowable sources. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 138.87.161.222 (talk) 23:03, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

I'm afraid a section like that would go against wiki policy, though I wish they could make an exception for it here, since I'm in total agreement with you. We'll both just have to learn to live with disappointment.--Cast (talk) 04:26, 16 February 2008 (UTC)

I see. I apologize, I'm not really that familiar with the specifics of the policy. How about talking about Wikichan itself? The article already states that Anonymous has connections to the *chans, so what if there was a section that said something like, "The unusual nature of Anonymous and the secretivity and xenophobia of its members, it is extremely difficult to document the history of the organization through conventional methods. Wikichan [with a link] is a repository of information that generally has to do with Anonymous, although it does not conform to the same rules of conduct of Wikipedia, and therefore the information is questionable." Regardless of how questionable it is, however, the information on Wikichan is essentially Anonymous describing what Anonymous is, and it is very accurate even though it is not verifiable. —Preceding unsigned comment added by ZenGOSM (talk • contribs) 21:30, 16 February 2008 (UTC)

If you review the history of the article, you'll see something like that was written in the earlier incarnations of the article, but this was removed because this statement could not be verified. You can't say "this place describes the article topic better than we can" without giving proof of that fact. Maybe you can get away with putting it in the External links section. Not sure about that. I'd have to review the policy on external links. (and read the talk header at the top of this page to learn how to do a few things on this talk page. this article is attracting a lot of new blood, so it'll help you and others)--Cast (talk) 01:28, 17 February 2008 (UTC)

V for Vendetta masks - source

Not sure if this should go in the Chanology wiki or here. source202.161.71.161 (talk) 10:36, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

It's just fine for this article, but under the chanology sub-section. If there is eventually a source on the importance of the mask from an "Anon" perspective -- that is, one that talks about its status as a meme -- then you can add that to a section on Anon-culture.--Cast (talk) 04:23, 16 February 2008 (UTC)

Some minor corrections

• Firstly, the "v masks" are Guy Fawks masks.
• Not all of Annon are hackers. If you wish to discuss the militant elements of Anonymous, they have a name the /i/nsurgency

A word of warning to any trigger happy Admins as well, don't drop the Banhammer on those of us who edit this article, because Anon and Wikipedians come from the exact same stock.

Tennekis^(rant) 23:22, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

Addendum: I personally keep Wikipedia inviolate, and am proud to take part but requests to hold off will probably be met with the phrase "Your resistance only makes my penis harder"

Tennekis^(rant) 23:27, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

While the V masks are indeed Guy Fawkes masks, if you watch the overture compilation video, it is obvious that they are not only Guy Fawkes masks, but symbols of V. 202.161.71.161 (talk) 03:49, 16 February 2008 (UTC)

Another possible source

SOURCE202.161.71.161 (talk) 06:28, 16 February 2008 (UTC)

Need sources related to PN

We know that Patriotic Nigras (PN) are an /i/nvasion subgroup of Anonymous, but are there any secondary sources that confirm this? Their webpage links the two, but a WP:RS would be great.

• Good source related to /b/tards, goons, and PNs - but no mention of Anonymous to link them all together.
• And possibly another one, if someone has access to newscientist 202.161.71.161 (talk) 02:02, 17 February 2008 (UTC)

This article has a couple of paragraphs on them. Also, you can list their website in the external links. And don't forget this site.--Cast (talk) 04:05, 17 February 2008 (UTC)

The link that the OP posted is hideously outdated. patrioticnigras.org is our current site. Cheers, --219.101.199.54 (talk) 04:47, 17 February 2008 (UTC)

PN has nothing to do with the "Anonymous" documented in this article. - Carbon ^[Nyan?] 11:57, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

Yes, yes it does. PN came from 7's /i/ board and still is on Partyvan IRC. And this article is throwing rules 1 and 2 out the window really. We need a new scapegoat. Kakama (talk) 18:25, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

PN is a hierarchical structure with defined leaders, operations, a process to join, etc. Simply being from /i/ does not mean they are relevant to the article as it stands now. - Carbon ^[Nyan?] 04:46, 19 February 2008 (UTC)

It becomes important at times like this to note that Anonymous is more than just its own group. It is also a subculture. PN is a small organization within that subculture. It does not take on all of the aspects of Anonymous, but takes on their attitude of dark comedy. They may be briefly mentioned in a section (on Anonymous controversies or culture -- I'm leaning towards culture) as a sub/spin-off group that has gained some media attention. Really, it shouldn't require more than 1 or 2 sentences.--Cast (talk) 05:21, 19 February 2008 (UTC)

Lead

The lead makes absolutely no sense at all. "The self-styled Anonymous (used as a mass noun) are the multitude of visitors to various imageboards." Huh? Isn't Anonymous the name of a hacker group? It reads like someone combined the definition of Anonymous with the group identity. I was trying to re-write it, but I don't even know where to start because I have no idea what the original authors where trying to say. It is in serious need of a rewrite. Arzel (talk) 16:37, 17 February 2008 (UTC)

It's probably for the best, since you don't know what Anonymous is. Reading this talk page, you'd get a better idea than reading the actual article. Anonymous is not a group of hackers. There are hackers within Anonymous, but though we don't have statistics, the fraction of them is mostly likely very, very small. I'd guess nowhere bigger than 1% or 2%. And yes, Anonymous was originated on imageboards, and this is where you still find them congregating in large numbers, and where the dynamics of imageboards give rise to all of their memes. And if you want to know what the original authors were shooting for, just look back in the history logs. The description has yet to be changed by anyone and has remained consistent.--Cast (talk) 18:05, 17 February 2008 (UTC)

Point taken, but how is the average reader to understand? You are right, I don't know what Anonymous is, and after reading the article I still don't know. The average reader shouldn't have to read the talk archives to figure out what the article is supposed to be telling them. Arzel (talk) 18:15, 17 February 2008 (UTC)

This is a rather chaotic article. We can't cite some of the best "sources" on the subject, because they are not verifiable, and the majority of verifiable sources give information we know to be incorrect, but we can't put up counter information as it barely exists. What we need to find are sources that are accurate on the subject. We have a few now on this talk page, but we've yet to incorporate them into the article. I don't have the time now -- maybe soon. If you want to pitch in, check a few subtopics in the talk page, bring yourself up to speed, confirm any sources given, and get cracking.--Cast (talk) 18:31, 17 February 2008 (UTC)

It makes perfect sense if you don't have preconceptions about what Anonymous is before you read the article. In fact, it's a much better summary than I've seen elsewhere. - Carbon ^[Nyan?] 12:04, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

The article is a heck of a lot better than it was previously. Strong work editors! DigitalC (talk) 05:44, 19 February 2008 (UTC)

Rename

I have no objections to completely deleting this article, but if it is kept, it should be renamed "Anonymous Internet posts". 199.125.109.87 (talk) 20:18, 17 February 2008 (UTC)

Not a group

Anonymous is not a group or organization any more than punks or nerds are. It could more accurately be referred to as a cultural movement or as a symbolic concept. --206.116.115.120 (talk) 20:39, 17 February 2008 (UTC)

And yet how many symbolic concepts have members? How many Anons have a goal they agree their "cultural movement" is progressing towards? Don't get me wrong, I agree that Anonymous is at times more than just a group. It is also a subculture and a symbolic concept; and when Anonymous rarely decides to embark on a project, it also becomes a tactic and a (temporary) agenda driven movement. This article has to cover all of these facets of Anonymous.--Cast (talk) 18:45, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

Canadian medal of freedom

There should be a section about the canadian pedophile that got caught with the help of Anonymous [1] the toronto sun link is no longer accessible for free, there is only the incipit. too bad. You can see the entire article here: [2] It's a blog post that reports the entire article, I found it googling the first sentence of the Toronto Sun article ( [3] ) 130.251.167.59 (talk) 14:44, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

But does it make any reference to the group "Anonymous"? It only uses the term "cyber-vigilantes", which is far too generic. Ayla (talk) 11:11, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

No, the TV broadcast specifically state the group was Anonymous. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Kakama5 (talk • contribs) 18:16, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

Which TV broadcast? The above post mentioned a Toronto Sun article. Ayla (talk) 19:01, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

Once again, Encyclopedia Dramatica provides us with the information. Global News report by Gus Kim (work safe); Toronto Police Press Release (work safe); archive of Chris Forcand thread on /b/ (not worksafe)--Cast (talk) 19:00, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

The first source looks great (although the link probably shouldn't be included in the article if there is a potential copyright infringement by the uploader). For reference: the reporter's corporate biography is found here. Ayla (talk) 19:10, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

Agreed. Just provide the citation information.--Cast (talk) 19:17, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

Done. Also used another legitimate source for the Toronto Star article [4]. Found no references to the "Canadian medal of freedom" though. Ayla (talk) 11:23, 19 February 2008 (UTC)

I think that was a joke about the medal Tom Crouse got in the scientology video--Alastor85 (talk) 20:43, 20 February 2008 (UTC)

Ayla, thankyou for impelmenting this information & source into the article. Good work. DigitalC (talk) 01:05, 21 February 2008 (UTC)

Merge proposal

Is this allowed? I thought the issue of merging was also settled in the AFD discussion closed today. I'm sorry, but this feels akin to a veiled premature renomination to me. Ayla (talk) 12:36, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

Yes. Consensus was not to delete, and that's it. Will ^(talk) 12:42, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

Considering that you are in favour of removing the "KTTV Fox 11 news report" section, and that the "Project Chanology" section is practically just a heavily condensed summary of the Project Chanology article, then there would be nothing to merge save two trivial sentences from the lead. The net effect would be identical to deletion, thus my earlier mention of a veiled premature renomination.

Note to other editors: The removal of the "KTTV Fox 11 news report" section is presently being discussed at WP:RS/N. Feel free to contribute. Ayla (talk) 13:42, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

This is an argument that frequently makes its rounds in the WP:EPISODE area - deletion, in terms of Wikipedia, is an administrative action that removes the page's history from view. Seeing as a merge does not do this, it isn't deletion. Will ^(talk) 15:27, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

The consensus expressed in the AFD was to retain the article, not to retain the article's page history. Participants could easily have !voted "merge" or "redirect" (as happens regularly in other AFDs) if they were solely interested in preserving the history. It is clear that the prevailing opinion at the AFD was against a merge as well. Ayla (talk) 16:05, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

• Oppose merge, keep article. -- I agree with Ayla (talk · contribs), consensus from the AfD was to Keep the article, a merge discussion this soon afterwards is pointless and skirting disruption. Cirt (talk) 16:11, 18 February 2008 (UTC)
• The AFD established that the subject is notable. However, it hasn't established that the subject is independently notable. I don't think we need 8KB page as a sub-article of a 40KB page when we can do exactly the same with 41KB page. Will ^(talk) 16:27, 18 February 2008 (UTC)
  • Will: That is your interpretation. People were well-aware of the existence of the Project Chanology article during the Anonymous (group) AFD – in fact, the nomination itself stated: "The article was created in response to Project Chanology not having enough context to really understand who the group is." To proceed with the merge, you would have to gather enough consensus to overturn the AFD result – and that should only be attempted after "allow[ing] a reasonable amount of time to pass". Provided that no other editor objects, I am closing the merge proposal here, since proceeding with the !vote would be in violation of the deletion policy unless its scope can be demonstrated to be distinct from the AFD. Ayla (talk) 16:49, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

• Oppose merge The Anonymous article was created as a seperate article because the editiors on Project Chanology felt that there was too much off topic stuff involved to create a sub section. I am currently confused about why to merge other than the fact that it can be done. This is the first time I have heard of a topic beeing notable but not independantly notable. "ok, ok, everyone agrees it is notable...but is it independantly notable?" Right now it does look like a sub-article, but the potential scope of this article goes way beyond Project Chanology. Merging will cause the project chanology page to become cluttered with off topic information.Coffeepusher (talk) 16:46, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

  There really isn't. Apart from the FOX report, whose suitability is question, there's only two sentences that deal with anything about Project Chanology. Will ^(talk) 16:59, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

there really isn't...what? mabie I am having a stupid moment, but could you clarify your last statement. I can't seem to make sence of what you are talking about.Coffeepusher (talk) 17:23, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

There really isn't enough off-topic content to justify an article. Also, I doubt that including the FOX report (which pertains directly to 4chan) is suitable for an article about Project Chanology - it'd be like calling Adventists and Seventh Day Adventists the same group. Will ^(talk) 17:30, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

Whether an article is justified was discussed – and concluded – at the AFD. Please don't take it personally, but I've closed the merge proposal since I feel that its merits had already been addressed by the AFD consensus. If you feel that the consensus is being misinterpreted, feel free to open a case at WP:DELREV. Regards, Ayla (talk) 18:29, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

• Oppose merge, keep articles separate. I agree with Coffeepusher it would be too cluttered, I don't fully understand the fox thing though please elaborate. -- Vdub49 (talk) 19:01, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

Just read it had been closed, never mind. -- Vdub49 (talk) 19:02, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

• The issue surrounding the Fox report concerns whether it should be mentioned in the article (i.e. whether the "KTTV Fox 11 news report" section should be removed). That discussion is still open, and you may participate at this WP:RS/N thread. Consensus presently appears to be more or less equally divided. Ayla (talk) 19:16, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

• Oppose Merge The suggestion to merge does not meet any of the "several good reasons to merge a page." Furthermore, User:Sceptre's involvement in this issue is becoming rather pointy. It should be apparent by now that there is a wide consensus that this group is worthy of an article. If we were to merge anything, it would be Project Chanology into this one, not vice-versa. I believe his reasoning behind his antipathy towards the article is the group's association with Encyclopedia Dramatica, a site which maintains a scathing article on him. Eleven Special (talk) 19:22, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

• There's no violation of WP:POINT at all here. Don't be so quick to assume such things (given the lack of disruption, for one) simply because you hold a different opinion. -- Ned Scott 05:57, 21 February 2008 (UTC)

• Oppose merge, keep article. There is no room in the Project Chanology article, and there are valid sources available on THIS TALK PAGE that can be used to improve the article. DigitalC (talk) 02:22, 19 February 2008 (UTC)
• Oppose merge, keep article. This article has significant potential for expansion-- future actions are likely and it is equally likely that we haven't adequately scoured the available resources. This seems rather premature. --Kajerm (talk) 06:22, 20 February 2008 (UTC)
• Comment The merge preposal has been closed Coffeepusher (talk) 15:44, 20 February 2008 (UTC)

• Uh, no it's not. You don't have a merge discussion for only two days. -- Ned Scott 05:55, 21 February 2008 (UTC)

• The merge proposal was closed as soon as it was demonstrated that it was violating the deletion policy by seeking to challenge the AFD result prematurely. Challenging the AFD result's interpretation should have been done at WP:DELREV, not through a merge proposal. Ayla (talk) 19:55, 21 February 2008 (UTC)

Semi-protected status

Why is the talk page on semi-protected status? I can understand the point of making the article semi-protected, but just because some users don't wish to register does not mean they should not have input to the formation of the page. For example, several good sources have been posted on the talk page which were posted by an unregistered user. DigitalC (talk) 02:24, 19 February 2008 (UTC)

Anonymous is a highly controversial topic which has been and will be receiving all kinds of defacement, spam and unproductive insight. It is best to keep all these pages as locked down as possible while still allowing legitimate edits to be made. --HockeyInJune (talk) 04:00, 19 February 2008 (UTC)

However, I've only seen defacement take place on the actual article, whereas the talk page has been a constant source of anonymous contribution. I think we can safely wait for actual defacement to begin before we lock it down.--Cast (talk) 04:25, 19 February 2008 (UTC)

I haven't seen any vandalism of the talk page, and pages are not supposed to be preemptively protected. DigitalC (talk) 09:35, 19 February 2008 (UTC)

Talk page vandalism: [5], [6] (from yesterday). Page was rendered unnavigable. Ayla (talk) 12:53, 19 February 2008 (UTC)

Reworking article - unwikipedian attempt

Anonymous has been reported as a group of “hackers" by the media, but is not a group or person at all. Anonymous is an idea — a concept. [a]. The concept is simple, in that any person can be Anonymous[b]. There is no member list, or application [citation needed] as this would result in a lack of anonymity. Anonymous claims that they are “everyone, and no one”.[c] Anonymous lacks hierarchical structure and leaders, instead relying on individuals to contribute to the group on their own.[2]

The origins of Anonymous are various [imageboards], such as 4chan.org, and 711chan.org and 420chan.org [b][d][e][f][g][h]. The messages on these boards cover a broad variety of topics, and are posted anonymously [a][i]. Anonymous are united by this namelessness [a], which gives them the power to do and say what they would not do in regular society [c]. As such, the messages may include sexism, racism, and pornographic content [i]. In the past, anonymous has conducted “raids” intended on harassing others, known as [griefing] in the online world[g]. Such “raids” include spoiling the ending to the latest [Harry Potter] book, as well as causing chaos in the online world [Habbo Hotel] [c][j].

The general public's introduction to the group began with Project Chanology, a protest against the Church of Scientology. The most visible element of the protest was mass protests of many Church sites worldwide on 10 February 2008.[1] Project Chanology marked a change in the tactics of Anonymous, as it was no longer done solely for laughs [c]

[a] http://www.collegiatetimes.com/stories/2008/02/15/column__scientology_angers_internet;_but_internet_strikes_back [b] http://blogs.techrepublic.com.com/tech-news/?p=2051 The Internet and IRL (In Real Life) — have the lines blurred? [c] CBC Search Engine, 7/02/2008. http://www.cbc.ca/searchengine/blog/2008/02/this_weeks_show_feb708_1.html#more [d] http://crave.cnet.com/8301-1_105-9869003-1.html [e] http://www.statenews.com/index.php/blog/entertainment/2008/02/internet_group [f] http://blog.wired.com/27bstroke6/2008/01/anonymous-hacke.html [g] http://blog.wired.com/27bstroke6/2008/01/anonymous-attac.html [h] http://blog.wired.com/27bstroke6/2007/07/investigative-r.html [I] http://media.www.diamondbackonline.com/media/storage/paper873/news/2008/02/08/Opinion/Rhodes.Hacker.Anarchy-3196491.shtml [J] Fox11 news report —Preceding unsigned comment added by DigitalC (talk • contribs) 09:40, 19 February 2008 (UTC)

It's a decent attempt which could be developed to expand the lead. However, you need to be careful about the sources. In previous discussions, blogs and "opinion" columns have generally been avoided either on grounds of not being secondary (having been written by someone involved in Anonymous) or of not being reliable (their merits were only attested by the credibility of the author/blogger as an individual). There are cases where a blog may be demonstrated to have been well-researched and/or endorsed by an established news corporation, thus still eligible as reliable, but that's not the general case.

On a technical note: It would be helpful if you format the citations in advance using the {{cite web}} or {{cite news}} templates (instructions on their pages); however, only do this for sources which you are fairly confident can be used, so as not to have wasted time if they are rejected. Ayla (talk) 10:31, 19 February 2008 (UTC)

Potential Supersource and memes

It appears that there is much arguing over what classifies as a valid source. I note that in many articles, however, the target site or subject itself is quoted or shown. While Encyclopedia Dramatica and even Wikichan are not considered legit sources, would the 4chanarchive be? That information is from the source. It can confirm several things that are noted in other articles such as cat macros, Tay Zonday's fame and relation to Anon, rickrolling, and more.

On another note, while some argue that Anonymous has evolved beyond message boards, I would like to point out that this is not usually the case beyond other non-Anonymous lifestyles lived on other forums. The Partyvan Wiki that is so often pointed to is just a subjunct of the imageboard, and is not for the most part used to argue or make any decisions. IRC makes up only a fragment of Anonymous. Forums are not related at all, and their use in Chanology is just a front to the public. Kakama (talk) 16:07, 19 February 2008 (UTC)

EPIC PAGE

Anonymous approves for this article. —Preceding unsigned comment added by M0rtanius X (talk • contribs) 18:26, 20 February 2008 (UTC)

No they don't. 125.237.195.86 (talk) 10:20, 29 February 2008 (UTC)

Importance Scale Assessment (ISA) for Anonymous

The Importance Scale Assessment for Anonymous should be raised to the highest possible. Anonymous has been a crucial element in bringing the Intellectual Community together, on the Internet, to fight for what matters most. Hopefully, as time progresses, Anonymous' Projects will grow in size and significance, eventually enlightening the entire Internet Community of the true evils of our Society. Anonymous seems to be the most important thing on the Internet these days, and it should be the most important thing on Wikipedia:WikiProject_Internet_culture. HockeyInJune (talk) 21:40, 20 February 2008 (UTC)

Potential source for slogan: "We are Legion, We do not forgive, We do not forget."

source. DigitalC (talk) 23:11, 20 February 2008 (UTC)

• Actually, on further reading, this looks like it could be a good source for the article in general. While it talks about project chanology, it also goes into the structure of anonymous. DigitalC (talk) 23:30, 20 February 2008 (UTC)

Sources versus page size

While it is a noble attempt to get Anon as well known as possible through the use of legitamate means, the problem I'm seeing with the article is that there may be too many sources compared to the amount of content in the article. InsaneZeroG (talk) 02:59, 21 February 2008 (UTC)

That isn't really considered a problem on Wikipedia – in fact, it is the norm for controversial articles. The "Sources" section is located at the bottom of the page, and can always be ignored by the reader. Ayla (talk) 18:53, 21 February 2008 (UTC)

Mentioning it here just so as to avoid starting a new thread. The YouTube video for the Today Tonight broadcast mentioned in the article can be found here. It should not be linked from the article itself due to potential copyright infringement (unless demonstrated otherwise). Ayla (talk) 19:36, 21 February 2008 (UTC)

Not really a group

"Anonymous" really isn't a group. Nothing is really organized, and often the "group" is just defined by who is interested at a certain time over a certain thing. I'd call it a concept more than a group. Certainly recent events with Scientology has made "Anonymous" seem more like a group, simply because it's the first time such a large number of us went in on the same thing, but over-all it's still mostly a concept. Ideas are thrown out, some catch on, some don't. Or maybe you could call it a demographic on the internet. Granted it's hard to define this without going into original research, but given that our published sources are often half-informed news reports, it kind of paints a false picture of what really happens. -- Ned Scott 05:52, 21 February 2008 (UTC)

This brings up one of the big (and probably unsolvable) problems with Wikipedia, which is the distinction between "objective truth", and "verifiable truth". When the "reliable" sources don't exist for a notable topic, or worse when they get it wrong, it is hard to justify adding the correct info to WP in light of the No Origional Research policy. One might invoke the Ignore All Rules policy, though with a controvertial article such as this it would be very difficult for that to reach concensus here. Z00r (talk) 08:15, 21 February 2008 (UTC)

This analogy might draw fire, but I'll risk it. I will compare Anonymous to the Animal Liberation Front (ALF). The ALF's membership is comprised entirely of those who voluntarily associate with it in secret. There are no member lists, no centralized organization. There are a few magazines that publish and encourage the behavior, but there certainly are no leaders. To be a member of ALF, you take part in an action ALF would approve of and state you did it in the group's name. After the action, you are no longer a member of ALF. Now all of that said, ALF is still an organization. I would say Anonymous strives even more so not to be an organization, but the generic term "group" still applies, because Anonymous admits that at any given time there is more than one Anonymous. Anonymous is legion. Legion implies a group. That all said, I agree that Anonymous is a concept; I just think this article can serve to explain all of the faces of Anonymous; that of the group, the culture, the tactic, and the idea.--Cast (talk) 10:37, 21 February 2008 (UTC)

A very good way to put it. -- Ned Scott 17:39, 25 February 2008 (UTC)

From what I've heard, Anonymous was really just a amorphous collection of Channers and Encyclopedia Dramatica users (I think many of them are now tied to E.D., as it provides info for Anonymous, but I'm not too sure). I know they've allegedly attacked the womensspace forum. The motives revolved around the moderator BitingBeaver after she wished she aborted her teenage son once witnessing him view and masturbate to pornography. This whole conflict is noted on E.D., so if you want more info, just key in either "BitingBeaver" or "TheBitingBeaver." Can't quite remember. 24.250.58.113 (talk) 14:26, 26 February 2008 (UTC)

Ignore all rules

I invoke Wikipedia:Ignore_all_rules. In order to improve the Anonymous page to a point where it is useful to the Internet Community, the "objective truth" must be incorporated.

See Not Really A Group--HockeyInJune (talk) 22:54, 21 February 2008 (UTC)

You don't invoke IAR. It's one of the sure-fire ways to lose an argument. Will ^(talk) 22:58, 21 February 2008 (UTC)

What rule exactly would you be ignoring? ≈ The Haunted Angel 23:15, 21 February 2008 (UTC)

I presume WP:V (including WP:RS). I agree with Will on this one. After Chanology, there have been over 100 secondary sources cited in the various Anonymous-related articles on Wikipedia (68 in the Feb 10 template alone). Surely, with some dedicated effort, you can find one which gets the facts right? Just to give you an example, for the very last source (already cited in article) I happened to come across: "Anonymous as it exists today [...] is an international community that is bound together by a common goal: the reform of the Church of Scientology." Find the sources, and we'll make the addition. Ayla (talk) 23:28, 21 February 2008 (UTC)

These things about Project Chanology and Scientology are only half the story. That source you quoted "...international community that is bound together by a common goal: the reform of the Church of Scientology." is wrong. Anonymous has been around much longer than Project Chanology, and Anonymous is about much more than just the demise of Scientology. These type of things, like the metaphorical basis of Anonymous' existence, need to elaborated on. This can only be done through the "objective truth", and not the "verifiable truth". We are ignoring Wikipedia:No original research. --HockeyInJune (talk) 03:29, 22 February 2008 (UTC)

How about the lead now? Is it any better? Ayla (talk) 13:34, 22 February 2008 (UTC)

@Ayla - Great work on the intro and incorporating the parral source. @HockeyInJune - Normally IAR would be invoked in regards to a specific edit with specific justifications. I don't think it is used broadly over a whole article. For a related example where IAR was invoked successfully, see the discussion of the google Lisa McPherson image on the chanology talk page. Z00r (talk) 14:15, 22 February 2008 (UTC)

Various websites and forums such as... eBaum's World

What's the source on this? ;) - Carbon ^[Nyan?] 01:32, 23 February 2008 (UTC)

eBaum's World is a bit of a pariah, I'd assume. Will ^(talk) 01:37, 23 February 2008 (UTC)

Removed. Honestly people, eBaum's is a meme. BJ^Talk 01:38, 23 February 2008 (UTC)

The source is given two sentences down.

• Jessica Parral and James Clark (2008-02-21). "Internet Group Takes Action Against Scientology". City on a Hill Press (student newspaper). University of California, Santa Cruz. Retrieved 2008-02-21.

If it's unclear, we could cite it against each sentence, but that would be superfluous. I don't understand what you mean by "meme". Even if the source is mistaken (which, being a "student newspaper of record", should not be too likely), there is still this court filing (from the case of Hal Turner vs. 4chan) which gives EBAUMSWORLD.COM as a defendant (along with 4CHAN.ORG, 7CHAN.ORG, etc.). Ayla (talk) 09:53, 23 February 2008 (UTC)

...and this court filing does not mention Anonymous in name, or at all. Just because a bunch of sites got sued doesn't lump them together in this regard. Would we consider Abjects part of Anonymous? Of course not. I think we can exercise editorial discretion here and being aware of both the dubious veracity of the source and the "blame eBaums" rule safely remove that mention. - Carbon ^[Nyan?] 11:10, 23 February 2008 (UTC)

The Hal Turner controversy (and court filing) is presently not mentioned in the article precisely because there is no reliable secondary source which associates it with the name "Anonymous"; however, the court filing proves that eBaum's has been involved in litigation in the past. As a temporary compromise, I have qualified the mention with "according to some sources", which should deflect responsibility for a meme/hoax from Wikipedia to the source. I performed a Google search for the "blame eBaum's" rule, and results were not convincing enough (see also [7] and [8]). Do you have any evidence of this meme? If it turns out to be true, then I feel it still deserves a mention to be acknowledged as a meme. Ayla (talk) 13:26, 23 February 2008 (UTC)

I have reread a few other sources mentioning the composition of Anonymous, and none of them made any reference to eBaum's. Thus, it seems like you were right. I've removed the mention from the article. Ayla (talk) 22:27, 23 February 2008 (UTC)

Please read this DigitalC (talk) 00:42, 25 February 2008 (UTC)

Yes, thanks for the pointer, I'm convinced now. I was sceptical in the beginning because I didn't think the campaign would be so successful as to get the site implicated in the Hal Turner lawsuit. Ayla (talk) 09:30, 25 February 2008 (UTC)

Illegal activities?

Any sources showing the numerous illegal activities that people from this group seem to regularly engage in on a day-to-day basis? 85.17.231.67 (talk) 21:57, 25 February 2008 (UTC)

I haven't seen any. Keep your eye out for some. DigitalC (talk) 22:04, 25 February 2008 (UTC)

Are you referring to the KTTV Fox 11 news report? It's already in the article. Mentioning which, there was a follow-up video made by Fox when Anonymous "invaded" MySpace (YouTube video), if anyone comes across it on Fox's site, please link it here. Ayla (talk) 00:27, 26 February 2008 (UTC)

Clarification

Anonymous is not a concrete group. It's a frame of mind, a collective name that many people use to refer to themselves. And the actions of one Anonymous do not affect or determine actions of other Anonymous.

Anonymous did not begin on 4chan, nor is it confined to there. Anonymous is present on almost every forum, imageboard, IRC network, and site. The Faildozer (as the Anonymous presence on 4chan, 7chan, 12chan, 420chan, 711chan, Raidchan, Partyvan, Lulznet, ED, the Internet, and real life is collectively referred to) is frequently used by people identifying with Anonymous, but the Dozer and Anonymous are separate entities. They have a large degree of intersection, however, anyone may call themselves Anonymous, and there are frequently disagreements within the group. Raids (invasions, DDoSing, trolling, flooding, and other hostilities toward external sites) are suggested by one person on a Dozer affiliate, and others may agree, disagree, or ignore the suggestion. If someone agrees with the raid, they carry it out, and if someone doesn't agree with the raid, they stand by.

You would be surprised if you saw what the Faildozer was like on the inside. To external observers, Anonymous may seem like a single, somewhat discrete entity, but it is really quite diverse. Users of 420chan in general look down on users of 7chan, who in turn look down on 4chan (which is considered by many experienced Anons to be an immature wasteland). Even with these distinctions between *chans, there may also be disagreements within a single imageboard, between the individual boards (for example, /i/ users consider /b/ users to be inexperienced). Looking further, individual posts can have conflicts. Within a single thread, several different viewpoints may be represented, and the personalities of each Anon can be vastly different. From this great variety in opinions and alliances, it may seem a wonder that the Faildozer can operate at all. This is not true.

When a particularly important, "epic", or popular raid is enacted, it is not because the forces of Anonymous cooperate or follow orders. It is simply because word of the raid is spread to every board, IRC channel, and forum of the Faildozer. For example, a raid that starts on 711chan may be posted on 4chan and 7chan as well, and this way many people learn about it. Many people agree with the raid. Inevitably, some people oppose it, and they don't participate. But the majority of the people agree with the raid, and this is why it is strong.

And thus, the Faildozer trudges on.

Ziggy Sawdust 17:39, 26 February 2008 (UTC)

I've never heard it called the Faildozer. Proof? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.210.33.219 (talk) 16:26, 28 February 2008 (UTC)