Talk:FIFA World Cup

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Inclusion

There are about 50 Articles regarding various FIFA World Cups (i.e. FIFA World Cup 2006, FIFA World Cup 1954). It struck me that this article (FIFA World Cup) would be made a lot better if ALL those other articles were included here. This would make a huge article, that could be split into sections, rather that a lot of smaller articles, which would be hard to navigate around. This is worth considering --Will James 03:02, 3 November 2006 (UTC)

Generally wikipedia tries to avoid articles that are very long due to the technical restrictions of some users' internet browsers. --Robdurbar 17:23, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

I think the list of most goals scored in the world cup should regard a single tournament rather than all of them. For example, Just Fontaine holds the record of scoring 13 goals in one tournament. Surely Ronaldo did not beat that.

2022

where on wikipedia can I get info on 2022 ? Palx 13:46, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

Well it would be held at 2022 FIFA World Cup; but as there is no info on something so far ahead, it wouldn't have a Wikipedia article. --Robdurbar 17:23, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

• Unlike the 2022 Winter Olympics or the 2024 Summer Olympics ? Palx 10:17, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

Historical ranking table

I have reverted the recent edits adding a historicak ranking table using 3 points for a win and one for a draw over all World Cup matches, as it is original research. Oldelpaso 18:06, 16 January 2007 (UTC)

Not again! I was involved with this a few months ago. I support your action. --Guinnog 18:10, 16 January 2007 (UTC)

I see we have acquired rankings for the world cups. I will remove them as they are unreferenced original research. --Guinnog 19:59, 27 March 2007 (UTC)

The number of tables of statistics also seems to have increased, some of them should be moved to a daughter article. Oldelpaso 20:47, 27 March 2007 (UTC)

I agree. I have removed the OR and messaged the editor who added it. --Guinnog 20:49, 27 March 2007 (UTC)

May I add that some of the newly added tables in the #Records and statistics section are a bit unimportant, e.g. #Most Goals scored by a Team, #Most Goals in one Tournament, Team and #FIFA World Cup Runner-up and Third Place captains. Chanheigeorge 20:54, 27 March 2007 (UTC)

(deindent) I would support moving these to separate articles or deleting them, as appropriate. I would add the Match officials lists to this category as well. --Guinnog 07:13, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

stupid thing deleted

there was a stupid thing that someone had that said only two continents had hosted games (south america and europe) when south korea and asia hosted one a few years ago and mexico have and the usa has. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 86.136.46.232 (talk) 17:05, 4 May 2007 (UTC).

2030

Well, as it is the 100th anniversary tournament. I would guess Uruguay(1930) will get it if they want it... ^CHANDLER   06:59, 4 June 2007 (UTC)

I would actually think that the UK or England (homeland of football) should bid for a world cup of 64 teams anniversary edition (only this World Cup), or, all the teams ever qualified go to the World Cup -  ¢нαzα93  16:26, 23 June 2007 (UTC)

Should we add a festival section? For example, adding 1980 Mundialito into the festival section. KyleRGiggs 14:40, 21 August 2007 (UTC)

No, because it is a minor tournament which just happens to have been contested by former World Cup winners, and is nothing to do with the World Cup itself. Oldelpaso 16:47, 21 August 2007 (UTC)

Actually, all the teams that enter the World Cup of Champions in Uruguay 1980 brought in their first class teams to the tournament. The reason England declined is because of financial troubles and player irregularities. It should be counted as the tournament is not to see the best like the normal World Cup but to see the best ot the best Gethomas3 22:40, 1 September 2007 (UTC)

England shirts at 1970 World Cup finals

During this tournament England sported three separate shirts, examples of which are White vs Brazil, Sky-blue vs Czechoslovakia and Red vs FR Germany. What was the rationale for having so many strips? Was it because they were the defending world champions? Are England the only international team to have worn three different shirts during ANY major tournament? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.66.45.222 (talk) 23:25, 23 September 2007 (UTC)

2nd & 3rd placers

Could you, please, rearrange the map, where you show former republics, like USSR, East Germany, and Yugoslavia. In the smaller map, you show, that craotia won third place - it was, but, its boundaries are not in those borders. You involved Bosnia and Hercegovina in its bounderies. Thanks Do they receive anything? Like a trophy or medals? --Howard the Duck 05:24, 28 September 2007 (UTC)

3rd place receive bronze medals--Blain Toddi (talk) 19:52, 19 November 2007 (UTC)

2nd and 3rd place receive medals, first place receives the cup and medals. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.79.54.47 (talk) 18:33, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

partners

worth mentioning the everpresent sponsors or "partners" of the tournement the likes of adidas, coca cola, gillete, mastercard, toshiba, philips, mcdonalds, fuji film, -Numberwang 18:36, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

3 times win

If a team win 3 times would that team keep the cup for ever like Brazil in 1970 ? I mean if one of Germany , Italy , Argentina and Brazil win in 2010 ?--Blain Toddi (talk) 19:55, 19 November 2007 (UTC)

The original FIFA World Cup Trophy cannot be won outright anymore, as the new regulations state that it shall remain FIFA's own possession. [1]. So the answer is no. Chanheigeorge (talk) 20:00, 19 November 2007 (UTC)

204 teams in qualification

This is really question, i know FIFA announced 204 teams will be participating, but few teams withdrew before the qualification start, 2 from Asia and 2 from Africa, so 200 teams are really took part, the question, should we change this in infobox, or keep 204 teams? --Aleenf1 05:39, 1 December 2007 (UTC)

Table of captains and managers

I don't think this belongs in the main world cup article, so I have removed it. However, I think it should have a place somewhere, I'm just not sure where. In the interim, I'm moving it here until deciding where it can go permanently. Oldelpaso (talk) 12:40, 31 December 2007 (UTC)

Year	Captain	Head coach	Team
1930	José Nasazzi	Alberto Suppici	Uruguay
1934	Giampiero Combi	Vittorio Pozzo	Italy
1938	Giuseppe Meazza	Vittorio Pozzo	Italy
1950	Obdulio Varela	Juan López	Uruguay
1954	Fritz Walter	Sepp Herberger	West Germany
1958	Hilderaldo Bellini	Vicente Feola	Brazil
1962	Mauro Ramos	Aymoré Moreira	Brazil
1966	Bobby Moore	Alf Ramsey	England
1970	Carlos Alberto	Mário Zagallo	Brazil
1974	Franz Beckenbauer	Helmut Schön	West Germany
1978	Daniel Passarella	César Luis Menotti	Argentina
1982	Dino Zoff	Enzo Bearzot	Italy
1986	Diego Maradona	Carlos Bilardo	Argentina
1990	Lothar Matthäus	Franz Beckenbauer	West Germany
1994	Dunga	Carlos Alberto Parreira	Brazil
1998	Didier Deschamps	Aimé Jacquet	France
2002	Cafu	Luiz Felipe Scolari	Brazil
2006	Fabio Cannavaro	Marcello Lippi	Italy

Fully protected

Right, had enough of this. Recently this has clogged up my watchlist. Discuss your issues here and now instead of edit-warring. WP:3RR went by a while ago really. This little dispute will endanger the FA status which was only just reaffirmed. Please discuss your problems here and come to a consensus. Seek help from WP:FOOTY if needed. Woody (talk) 20:20, 7 March 2008 (UTC)

Since, I made the last revert, I'll add my tuppence and reason why I reverted. I saw the first change by SuperSonicx1986 and was in two minds whether to undo it, but swayed on the side of not doing so. When another editor agreed with my first thoughts, I made the final revert. I feel SuperSonicx1986's edit, while little wrong with them, added nothing that the list currently didn't. However the final par of his edit "Below is a list of the 24 teams that have finished in the top four in a World Cup" is clearly wrong since there are only 11 teams on the chart. Peanut4 (talk) 20:37, 7 March 2008 (UTC)

Yes, the problem is he's adding back material previously deleted without actually checking whether it matches the new material. The "24 teams" statement does not match the new table, and there were also two same images as a result. Those material were deleted by me (or somebody else?) because of the recent peer review saying that there were too much statistics and trivia in this page. As a compromise, I've put those material in the article FIFA World Cup Finals, which I think is the more appropriate page. Chanheigeorge (talk) 21:39, 7 March 2008 (UTC)

Requested move

The following discussion is an archived discussion of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the proposal was no consensus. JPG-GR (talk) 17:07, 14 April 2008 (UTC)

8 April 2008

Please move this article to the sole name "World Cup". It is a registered name that does not need the additional FIFA acronym. - Camilo Sanchez (talk) 18:53, 8 April 2008 (UTC)

World Cup is a very generic term used to describe the Rugby World Cup, the Hockey World Cup, and a lot of other sports. It wouldn't be feasible to put the football one as the only World Cup usage. The "FIFA" is used for disambiguation purposes. Woody (talk) 18:57, 8 April 2008 (UTC)

• Oppose - "World Cup" could refer to any sport's world championship, not least the Rugby World Cup. There's even the FIFA Club World Cup which could lay a claim to the "World Cup" moniker. – PeeJay 19:02, 8 April 2008 (UTC)

• Oppose as per User:PeeJay2K3 above. - fchd (talk) 19:18, 8 April 2008 (UTC)

• Oppose - One hears the full name regularly enough. - Dudesleeper / Talk 19:19, 8 April 2008 (UTC)

• Oppose - "World Cup" is the most ambiguous name an article could have, when you don't specify what you're referring to. There's at least a basketball World Cup, a volleyball World Cup, a rugby World Cup, and a couple of association football World Cups. --Angelo (talk) 19:20, 8 April 2008 (UTC)

• Oppose - 1st of April is a little outdated. --necronudist (talk) 20:12, 8 April 2008 (UTC)

• Oppose due to the existence of multiple world cups in various sports. пﮟოьεԻ 57 20:44, 8 April 2008 (UTC)

• Oppose pile on/snow etc, bad idea. --Dweller (talk) 21:09, 8 April 2008 (UTC)

9 April 2008

• Oppose because although the soccer World Cup is the biggest by far in the world, it's a bit disrespectful to other World Cups and is sort of saying the soccer World Cup is THE World Cup, which isn't correct. Normy 05:29, 9 April 2008 (UTC)

Despite the overwhelming opposition I actually think this is a reasonable request per WP:COMMON. What were the recent worldwide television viewing figures for the World Cup, as opposed to the cricket or rugby world cups? And official name isn't necessarily the common name. I think this is a case of officiousness, protectionism and vanity over common sense. As if a particular reader has the reasonable expectation to get to Volleyball World Cup from World Cup. Daftness. MickMacNee (talk) 03:35, 9 April 2008 (UTC)

Do you think you can remain civil, please? I don't appreciate being called officious, protectionist, vain or daft and I certainly don't want to be called all four. There's no need for name-calling. Play the ball, not the man. --Dweller (talk) 07:16, 9 April 2008 (UTC)

I did play the ball, the words are toward the action, not the voters, and I don't appreciate your 'formal warning' for something so obviously meant as such. MickMacNee (talk) 12:05, 9 April 2008 (UTC)

Mick's point is perfectly valid. COMMON SENSE. Seems lacking at times. Look at any football resources, people talk of the World Cup. Given it's the largest global sport... I mean, comparing Volleyball World Cup? Given people seem to get their knickers in a twist over this, why not have a World Cup page redirecting to the FIFA World Cup, which might appease sensitive souls. Minkythecat (talk) 07:24, 9 April 2008 (UTC)

• Nah plenty of world cups, the World Cup page should be a dab and this should be the FIFA World Cup regardless of shouting and incivility. The Rambling Man (talk) 07:38, 9 April 2008 (UTC)
• Yes, Move it - why on earth do we make things so hard for our readers?. The great majority of readers typing in "World Cup" are looking for the FIFA tournament. They are certainly NOT looking for the existing article at World cup, which is effectively nothing more than a dicdef and provides practically no useful information at all. So we've already sent them to the wrong place. Even worse, unless the reader sees the link to FIFA World Cup, they then have to visit the dab page (if they even see the hard-to-see link to that!) and then click again to find the right article. Why make it so hard for people? Even if the few people that are looking for World Cups in other sports end up at the wrong page, that's still better than EVERYONE ending up at the wrong page! So -
  • Move World cup to World cup (sports)
  • Alter World cup to be a redirect to FIFA World Cup
  • put an {{otheruses}} template on the top of FIFA World Cup leading to the dab page
• I don't see a single good Oppose above that gives a good reason why this move would not help the great majority of our readers, and in the end that is the only reason to move a page or not. At the very least, World cup should be a dab with a link to the FIFA tournament in bold at the top. Black Kite 07:53, 9 April 2008 (UTC)
  • Dude, people aren't stupid. If they type in "World Cup" and come across a page they weren't expecting, they'll either click on a link on the page they find, or they'll try another search term. Anyway, I'm not surprised that you guys see the football World Cup as being the World Cup, seeing as most of you are probably football fans yourselves. I would be willing to bet money that if you asked a rugby fan about the World Cup, they'd assume you were talking about the Rugby World Cup. Does that mean that the Rugby World Cup deserves to be located at World Cup? No, of course not. Basically, the situation we have now is the best one available to us, and all World Cup articles should remain where they are. – PeeJay 09:05, 9 April 2008 (UTC)
    • Ironically PeeJay, actually most of those opposing are members of WP:FOOTY. --Dweller (talk) 09:16, 9 April 2008 (UTC)
      • This is true. In fact, I'm also one of them ;) – PeeJay 10:54, 9 April 2008 (UTC)
    • People aren't stupid, but they often aren't familiar with wikipedia or how the links system works, and this arrangement is plain confusing. It is clearly not the best option available when the majority of people looking for a certain article are sent to the wrong one, with no obvious link to the correct one. It's common sense - what are most people looking for when they type "World Cup" into the search box? Answer = FIFA World Cup. As I said, even if we don't move FIFA World Cup, then World cup definitely needs to be the dab page with an obvious link to it. The current arrangement helps no-one at all, especially inexperienced readers. Incidentally, I'm more of a cricket fan than a football fan, FWIW. Black Kite 10:26, 9 April 2008 (UTC)

• Oppose - as above, 'FIFA' acts as a disambiguation, making sure people know we are referring to football and not rugby, cricket etc. GiantSnowman (talk) 11:57, 9 April 2008 (UTC)
• Oppose after some thought (and move the current World cup page to somewhere like World cups, making World cup a disambiguation page). People looking for other world cups might well type in "World Cup" in the search box, to save on typing or because they're not sure exactly what the article they're looking for is called. They expect to find themselves immediately on a disamb page from which they can select the world cup of their preference. Those (admittedly probably the majority) typing in "World Cup" to get to the football world cup probably won't be too surprised to find themselves on that disamb page too.--Kotniski (talk) 12:24, 9 April 2008 (UTC)

• You can do a simple thought experiment. Think of any region on Earth where they probably assign World Cup to something else. Then in a miracle of quantum physics, split yourself and walk in all directions, stopping every mile or so and asking them what they thought of the World Cup? I guarantee that you could start anywhere on Earth, you will always get to a person that thinks you mean the FIFA World Cup before you stop meeting people who think you mean the Rugby/Cricket/Volleyball/Tiddleywinks World Cup. It is quite clear that maintaining the ambiguity is to uphold minority local interest views. As opposed to all the other Cups, who in normal conversation ever calls it the Football World Cup? No one, and for good reason, there is a reason why it is talked about as the Rugby World Cup. FIFA adds the fifa part for commercial trademark reasons only, it is in no way meant as a aid to common disambiguation in their eyes. MickMacNee (talk) 12:14, 9 April 2008 (UTC)

10 April 2008

• • I'm not sure I agree. I think in Australia, NZ, SA, and even the UK/Ireland or Carribean (possibly even the US, I'm not sure), if the rugby or cricket world cup has taken place recently, then that may well be on more people's minds than the footy version.--Kotniski (talk) 12:29, 9 April 2008 (UTC)
    • Doubtful. In the US there is only 1 World Cup. Anything else is a Super Bowl, Stanley Cup, World Championship or similar. In the UK I think we probably put a qualifier on the "Cricket World Cup" just in case anyone thought we were talking batty about a Football World Cup featuring Sri Lanka. Not that I support the move, but I've seen disambiguations given for lesser things.--Koncorde (talk) 20:46, 9 April 2008 (UTC)
• Support I suspect we are getting a swamp load of oppose votes from people from the United States where football means Peyton Manning and not David Beckham. If you look at the World cup article which lists a ton of World Cups it says "There are a number of notable world cups in popular sports, but it is the FIFA World Cup (a football tournament, first held in 1930) that is widely known simply as 'the World Cup'." If you look at the FIFA World Cup article it says it is "usually referred to simply as the World Cup." If you look at traffic stats you can see that the FIFA World Cup is by far and away the primary usage:
  • World Cup viewed 15094 times
  • FIFA World Cup viewed 97966 times
  • IFAF World Cup viewed 524 times
  • Cricket World Cup viewed 15869 times
  • Rugby World Cup viewed 16233 times
  • Rugby League World Cup viewed 4000 times
  • IAAF World Cup in Athletics viewed 474 times
  • FINA Swimming World Cup viewed 351 times
  • Baseball World Cup viewed 2241 times
  • Volleyball World Cup viewed 1261 times
  • World Cup (men's golf) viewed 545 times
  • Women's World Cup of Golf viewed 420 times
  • Alpine Skiing World Cup viewed 5256 times
  • Nordic combined World Cup viewed 265 times

199.125.109.88 (talk) 01:31, 10 April 2008 (UTC)

This is the most convincing argument as far as I'm concerned. Looking at those figures it's overwhelming, and just reflects the common sense and common name view that everyone refers to the only two realistic alternatives as the Cricket World Cup and Rugby World Cup for a very good reason. Even if you look at the official FIFA site[2], they don't bother to put football in their logo, whereas Rugby feels the need[3]. The cricket world cup appears not to even have a website. MickMacNee (talk) 01:59, 10 April 2008 (UTC)

I think you need to check your facts concerning the editors in this debate. The vast majority are "soccer" fans, primarily involved in Premier League articles. Most are football fans who see FIFA World Cup as the correct term for this. Bringing nationalities into this is smoke and mirrors. Woody (talk) 15:57, 12 April 2008 (UTC)

Oppose: It might be a convincing argument if the number of views on simply "World Cup" were of a similar order to those to "FIFA World Cup", which would suggest that people are navigating from one to the other. As it stands, it may be that many people are following internal links which have been added with {{subst:wc}} (or, I least, I hope it's been subst:ed). A factor that is also significant is that sticking "World Cup" into Google throws up our article "FIFA World Cup" as the third result. So, on the whole, the case for a move is not all that compelling, since it can't be demonstrated that the current situation is broken. In fact, it would appear that most people are getting to where they want to go. We don't move pages for the convenience of a small number of editors that have inserted links to World Cup when they meant FIFA World Cup. 217.36.107.9 (talk) 15:47, 10 April 2008 (UTC)

Or in this case where they really mean World Cup (read the articles, that is what it is called). The number of hits to World Cup is a similar order of magnitude (within 1:10 or 10:1) and clearly shows that people are typing in World Cup when they really want "World Cup", which we currently have as "FIFA World Cup". Google will for a while after the move still show FIFA World Cup as the #3 result, which will be a redirect to World Cup. See for example Prohibition which was recently moved to Prohibition of alcohol.[4] We will not "lose our place" on Google as a result of the move. About 70% of people get to articles from links and search results, and none of them would be affected, other than the ones that got sent to the wrong place, which would after the move be sent to the right place (there are dozens of links to World Cup that are intended to be links to this article). We aren't moving FIFA World Cup to World Cup because it's broken, we are moving it because it is incorrect. 199.125.109.98 (talk) 18:33, 10 April 2008 (UTC)

The one thing it is not is incorrect. Also, how do you know what anyone else "means" when they type a term into a search engine or anywhere else? - fchd (talk) 18:53, 10 April 2008 (UTC)

Well they don't mean the current article named World cup, because there is no content there, and they don't mean rugby or cricket, because those cups are not called the World Cup. Only one cup is called the World Cup. By incorrect I mean it is not the correct title of the article based on Wikipedia guidelines for naming articles. 199.125.109.96 (talk) 20:26, 10 April 2008 (UTC)

11 April 2008

According to the IRB and the ICC, those competitions are called World Cup. I would say your argument was full of holes, but it doesn't have any substance in which to make them. No move - as someone said above, the traffic numbers don't support it. You can't claim that most people coming to World Cup are looking for FIFA World Cup on the basis that it's where most clickthroughs are going when it has more views than the page that's supposedly taking them there. Moves are inherently disruptive, since they change the order of things, so you should have a good reason for moving things around. As has been said, you stick "World Cup" into Google, the first Wikipedia result you get is for FIFA World Cup - mission accomplished, need to cause problems by replacing the head subject at World Cup. 81.110.106.169 (talk) 21:28, 11 April 2008 (UTC)

Really? IRB call it world cup, eh? http://www.irb.com/tournaments/index.html. ICC? http://icc-cricket.yahoo.com/icc-events/cricket-world-cup.html. Well, clearly no substance there whatsoever, which less than 2 minutes googling found. So, based upon the official websites of the main rugby and cricket prefixing "World cup" with the actual sport, can people point out how they know more than the governing bodies of those sports? Minkythecat (talk) 21:33, 11 April 2008 (UTC)

You know what I just found? Wikipedia:Civility and Wikipedia:No personal attacks. Quite interesting really... Woody (talk) 21:36, 11 April 2008 (UTC)

Yup, quite interesting indeed. Assume you're referring to the anon whose false point was destroyed? Found WP:OR... Minkythecat (talk) 21:40, 11 April 2008 (UTC)

It was a specific reminder to the IP, but also a general reminder, can we keep this civil please. We all have our own opinions and thoughts. No need to turn this into a warzone, or worse, a courtroom. Woody (talk) 21:54, 11 April 2008 (UTC)

WP:NLT ;) Minkythecat (talk) 22:13, 11 April 2008 (UTC)

This discussion is ridiculous.(With all due respect) The term World Cup is a registered trademark of FIFA. Simple as that.So please, move this article to the sole name World Cup. For any other sport World Cup please add a term accordingly. Ok?..Thanks.Camilo Sanchez (talk) 01:46, 12 April 2008 (UTC)

12 April 2008

Guys, I give you until May 8, 2008 to quickly come to a resolution. (This is taking too long and I don't really want this to look like a senatorial decision)Camilo Sanchez (talk) 01:54, 12 April 2008 (UTC)

Or else what pray tell? MickMacNee (talk) 01:58, 12 April 2008 (UTC)

Or else..nothing, we simply move it according to the opinion of everybody. If there is more people opposing than supporting the move , we leave it the way it is, otherwise, we will move it. It's a nobrainer.Camilo Sanchez (talk) 02:08, 12 April 2008 (UTC)

Wikipedia doesn't operate on votes. It operates on what makes sense. 199.125.109.88 (talk) 03:27, 12 April 2008 (UTC)

Please don't take a fanatic stand point. We are doing it on the world's common sense of calling the World Cup World Cup, or in other languages Copa del Mundo or Copa do mundo. Thanks.Camilo Sanchez (talk) 04:57, 12 April 2008 (UTC)

The title of the official homepage for the tournament is titled FIFA World Cup. 81.110.106.169 (talk) 12:23, 12 April 2008 (UTC)

And www.worldcup.com redirects to FIFA.com. The FIFA addition to the name is a commercial protection, not a disambiguation, and is done precisely because the term World Cup has enormous worldwide recognition for one thing. MickMacNee (talk) 15:24, 12 April 2008 (UTC)

Do you propose Do it yourself should redirect to B&Q, owners of www.diy.com? There is no precedent and no policy support for moving this article to World Cup, especially since it will not make the article significantly easier to find. 81.110.106.169 (talk) 15:39, 12 April 2008 (UTC)

Of course not, the cases are not even comparable. MickMacNee (talk) 15:51, 12 April 2008 (UTC)

• Oppose I'm a big football fan, If i hear someone say "the World Cup" (and the equivalent in Swedish "VM") the thing i think about is this world cup. But seriously FIFA World Cup is a really good name, escpecially when there are so many other World Cups for other sports. I think it's more helpful to get to a dab page when writing in World Cup, I know I used it to find the Rugby WC article once. We got away from Soccer in the Football article title that was good, this is unnecessary. You'd also have to think about all the YYYY World Cup articles. Chandlertalk 16:24, 12 April 2008 (UTC)

• Oppose. I understand the alternative arguments, but "FIFA World Cup" is a good way to disambiguate. Many pro-soccer editors seem OK keeping it here, so I do not think it would trouble readers too much; alternatively, moving it so the presumption is made that readers want the soccer article may rankle the thousands who do not. Compulsions70 (talk) 18:10, 12 April 2008 (UTC)

13 April 2008

• FYIImportant! A big opposition comes from users from the United States where football soccer is an unpopular sport.^{citation needed}Thanks.Camilo Sanchez (talk) 05:37, 13 April 2008 (UTC)

On what evidence do you base that statement on? From looking at the debate above (and it is not a simple vote), several of the 'oppose' opinions are from British contributors. And even if it were true, the opinions of American contributors are as valid as yours or mine. - fchd (talk) 06:40, 13 April 2008 (UTC)

I will repeat what I said above: I think you need to check your facts concerning the editors in this debate. The vast majority are English "soccer" fans, primarily involved in Premier League articles. Most are football fans who see FIFA World Cup as the correct term for this. Bringing nationalities into this is smoke and mirrors. Keep the discussion on topic. Woody (talk) 11:00, 13 April 2008 (UTC)

Voting table removed, because article matters are decided primarily through discussion, not polling. Also, the general lead time on requested moves is around a week, not a month. 81.110.106.169 (talk) 11:34, 13 April 2008 (UTC)

Move to close - it's fast becoming evident that there is enough opposition to suggest no firm consensus for this move. 81.110.106.169 (talk) 11:34, 13 April 2008 (UTC)

Oppose What, there's a world cup besides rugby? --Relata refero (disp.) 18:41, 13 April 2008 (UTC)

14 April 2008

Sorry guys. The discussion is becoming the subject of vandalism with unregistered users deleting the voting box. Please , do not remove it. Cast a vote and give your opinion respectfully. It would be great if some users didn't hide their identity behind an IP number and like ME, would have a way to contact them when an editing occur. If you don't want to vote, fine, but please be respectful to other wikipedians. Especially the registered ones...and please for the love of God. World Cup is a registered trademark of FIFA. It is so simple that they can perfectly sue anyone else who uses it. So please, use the right copyrighted registered trademark World Cup. Thanks! Camilo Sanchez (talk) 01:24, 14 April 2008 (UTC)

What is the matter with you guys??? what part of registered copyrighted trademark don't you understand? World Cup is a registered trademark by FIFA. This article's correct and official name is World Cup. Why in the world are you making it so difficult?. Please do move this article to World Cup, for any other use of world cup add a term accordingly. Camilo Sanchez (talk) 01:51, 14 April 2008 (UTC)

Look if nobody believes what i say, and how much FIFA has struggle for the protection of the term World Cup, then go and read this article: http://english.gov.cn/special/2006-06/21/content_317805.htm Camilo Sanchez (talk) 02:01, 14 April 2008 (UTC)

That article refers to the protection of FIFA and World Cup logos to prevent the manufacture of pirate FIFA World Cup merchandise - not the words "World Cup" themselves. - fchd (talk) 05:28, 14 April 2008 (UTC)

Camilo is right. If you look here (scroll down to 4.2) it confirms that "World Cup" is a FIFA trademark. Considering FIFAs history of litigation regarding its trademarks I'm suprised they haven't tried to take Wikipedia to court for daring to suggest that World Cup could mean something other than theirs. josh (talk) 13:47, 14 April 2008 (UTC)

• Oppose. List of world cups and world championships shws that even within football (soccer) there are 3 World Cups. Leave World Cup as a disambig page. Anthony Appleyard (talk) 14:33, 14 April 2008 (UTC)

There are dozens of "world series", yet only one is known only as the World Series. Same with the world cup. 199.125.109.64 (talk) 15:09, 14 April 2008 (UTC)

Wrong. In a rugby context, people refer to their world cup in everyday speak as "The World Cup". In a cricket context, the same. In a biathlon context - the same. See a pattern emerging? While the FIFA World Cup is far and away the biggest World Cup, it is not the only World Cup. Therefore, the current set up of article naming is the best way to handle the situation. - fchd (talk) 15:53, 14 April 2008 (UTC)

Even wronger. taken a look at the official sites for rugby and cricket? What's that? They refer to "Rugby World Cup" and "Cricket World Cup"... see a pattern emerging? Minkythecat (talk) 15:58, 14 April 2008 (UTC)

That's why I said in "everyday speak". Even so, following your reasoning, on virtually every reference on the FIFA site, the competition is explicitly named "FIFA World Cup". Either way, there still seems to me to be no sensible reason for this page move. - fchd (talk) 16:32, 14 April 2008 (UTC)

Requested move optional

Since there seems to be no consensus for this move, what do people think about moving the dab page to World cup, and the existing page to something like World cup (sports)?. At least then, people searching for the primary term (FIFA World Cup) by typing in "World Cup" will not be presented with an irrelevant page, and will easily be able to find their objective, whilst not establishing the primacy of any particular sport. Black Kite 12:11, 9 April 2008 (UTC)

• I was pretty sure that World Cup had the FIFA link in db text at the top anyway, somebody must have removed it. MickMacNee (talk) 12:15, 9 April 2008 (UTC)

The hat-note is indeed there. You may have missed it because of the maintenance tag that accompanies it. I thought the wording was rather confusing so I just edited it. Happy for others to tinker with what I put. --Dweller (talk) 12:32, 9 April 2008 (UTC)

No, the FIFA World Cup link used to be there specifically. MickMacNee (talk) 12:37, 9 April 2008 (UTC)

Yep, it was in this revision [5], and was removed for no apparent reason in this diff. Black Kite 12:46, 9 April 2008 (UTC)

Ah, I see. My mistake. --Dweller (talk) 12:55, 9 April 2008 (UTC)

And it was this nice bit of work that made the dablink a nonsense. --Dweller (talk) 12:59, 9 April 2008 (UTC)

I've put the explicit link to the FIFA World Cup back in. Hopefully that's a reasonable compromise, though I'd still like to see the dab moved. Black Kite 13:07, 9 April 2008 (UTC)

I've gone even further and put in a list of other links to major(ish) world cups (which can probably be improved). I also agree that World cup should be a dab page, but I'm not sure what you mean by "see the dab moved", because I couldn't find an existing dab (World cup (disambiguation) redirects to List of world cups and world championships).--Kotniski (talk) 18:54, 10 April 2008 (UTC)

OK, I've now moved the previous World Cup page to World cup competition, and made World Cup into a disamb page (to which more world cups could probably be added). If this move proposal is accepted, then of course this disamb page would need to be renamed World Cup (disambiguation).--Kotniski (talk) 11:07, 12 April 2008 (UTC)

Option 2

On further examination, the text content of World Cup and World Championship would appear to be duplication (describing participinats, formats, relative prestige etc). I suggest the text content of both be merged into a lead few paragraphs of List of world cups and world championships, and both World Cup and World Championship become some sort of db page for each term. And the partial list in World Championships seems redundant. MickMacNee (talk) 13:12, 9 April 2008 (UTC)

Sounds reasonable.--Kotniski (talk) 18:54, 10 April 2008 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Above Discussion

I notice that the discussion above can't be modified, so, is it over? are they gonna leave this article as FIFA World Cup? This is really disappointing that a bunch of users are acting with this lack of common sense and respect for a name that is actually protected. Why are you guys doing it? In so many other articles on Wikipedia when something is well known it remains as the first article and above you place an other uses redirecting link. Why can't we do it here?. Imagine for a second a user goes online. This is an unschooled, uneducated user. Let say for the sake of argument he doesn't speak english as his first language, but his first language does not have a Wikipedia with +1000.000 articles. Let's say he wants o find out football soccer's World Cup. But he has no idea about the existence of FIFA, in fact he doesn't even know what it is, all he knows is that there is a worldwide known thing that takes place every four years where even the poorest person in this world knows about and that is World Cup. Now, this guy, goes online and he is in the db page, then he has to face a bunch of terms with additional terms. He doesn't know anything about FIFA, so how is he gonna know which one is the right one?? Now. This is an extreme example, but come on. If we know we have the power to making it easy on him, then why don't we? Why is it so hard to name an article the way it REALLY is. Look, if World Cup wasn't a protected name, I probably wouldn't care. If I had the slightest doubt about this , I wouldn't be so stuborn. But this is really wrong. Having a db page called World Cup is a big mistake. World Cup should at least redirect to FIFA World Cup and then it should have an other uses link. Please someone help me out here. Thanks Camilo Sanchez (talk) 20:13, 14 April 2008 (UTC)

Well.. right now at the World Cup dab page (didn't bother looking at the history, so it might have been added very recently) it says "FIFA World Cup (men's football; widely known as "the World Cup")"... That should probably guide them through сʜʌɴɒʟєʀ ♠ тʌʟκ 20:20, 14 April 2008 (UTC)

(E/C)In terms of your hypothetical argument: it is highly flawed and it doesn't need responding to. The consensus of editors is that we do need to have a dab page for World Cup. Try and put your effort into developing that page instead of flogging a dead horse. This discussion has been archived, the majority of people did not agree with you. Woody (talk) 20:26, 14 April 2008 (UTC)

Dead Horse? Let me tell you something you disrespectful user.This little mafia that you have here with your friends trying to make things the way you want and not the way they should be is what makes this Wikipedia lose its credibility. Camilo Sanchez (talk) 20:38, 14 April 2008 (UTC)

It's understandable you feel strongly about this; it's always been a difficult decision. But if you read through the above discussion, you'll see that there were very good arguments made on both sides, and it just has to be accepted that there isn't a consensus among the community in favour of a move (and it's hardly likely that all those opposing are each other's friends). Let's put this discussion aside (though I fear it will come up again as 2010 approaches) and move on to more important things.--Kotniski (talk) 20:58, 14 April 2008 (UTC)

Hey guys check this link out. This is what we have here.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Systemic_bias Camilo Sanchez (talk) 03:52, 15 April 2008 (UTC)

How on earth is a decision by consensus an application of Systemic Bias? - fchd (talk) 05:04, 15 April 2008 (UTC)

I'll tell you why Ricky. Because there is a bunch of users here that have been working together on English football articles and are basically owning this area of the wikipedia to fit it the best way they like. If this was about real consensus we would probably have to add a note on every article that includes the term World Cup around this Wikipedia. Too bad a few ones are really disrespectful towards some well protected names. This is really sad and dissapointing. Call me what you want.Idgaf. Camilo Sanchez (talk) 09:02, 15 April 2008 (UTC)

I don't know why anyone has such a hard time accepting that people don't think the Volleyball World Cup deserves the same status as the World Cup, to the extent they feel they are justified in dismissing it as 'not needing a response'. It's been shown quite clearly above that there are barely two reasonable alternative intended targets that a non-expert reader might want when clicking 'Go', which is well within the scope of the db hatnote policy, with all other less notable articles in a (disambiguation) page, well within the disambiguation policy. It really isn't rocket science from where I'm standing. MickMacNee (talk) 12:33, 15 April 2008 (UTC)

Well, I am telling you. This little club they have here man. They arrange these articles how they please. This is basically their notebook, we are only mere spectators. I guarantee you that if we make an edit on any part of this article we will have fchd, or Woody deleting it right away. I had proposed an extended period of time for the discussion and they just closed it. I wish there was a topmost authority paying attention to people who have at least a good argument , but apparently here, saying that World Cup is a protected name is a flawed argument. Walob. Camilo Sanchez (talk) 18:09, 15 April 2008 (UTC)

Excuse me, what have I deleted of yours? I think it is clear from the above posts that you have a difficult time with the concept of consensus. Oh, and by the way "FIFA World Cup" is also a registered trademark. - fchd (talk) 18:18, 15 April 2008 (UTC)

Consensus??? Your buddies' consensus, that's what it is. k.m.a. Consensus, go ask and african kid about World Cup to see what he tells you!!!Camilo Sanchez (talk) 19:49, 15 April 2008 (UTC)

tl;dr version: None of your arguments were sufficient to convince people that removing "FIFA" from the title was a good idea. 81.110.106.169 (talk) 23:24, 15 April 2008 (UTC)

Just because one kid in Africa hasn't heard about other World Cup's, doesn't mean they don't exist. And no one (i think) i saying the FIFA World Cup isnt the most notable and most known under the name "World Cup". But to have the article on "FIFA World Cup" is very good for distinguishing it from the other World Cups. сʜʌɴɒʟєʀ ♠ тʌʟκ 23:36, 15 April 2008 (UTC)

To wit, the whole "protected mark" issue is moot for two reasons. Wikipedia could not care less about trademarks, though on the other hand we are making a direct association between FIFA and their "World Cup" mark. If you check their own website, you rarely find one without the other. 81.110.106.169 (talk) 23:44, 15 April 2008 (UTC)

And there is a very good reason why you won't, and it has absolutely nothing to do with Wikipedia disambiguation, or that readers of fifa.com (which incidentally as said before, worldcup.com redirects to) might suddenly get confused while reading their site and forget which world cup site they are on. To use this fact as a reason as to what to name the article on Wikipedia doesn't stand up to any logical test at all. MickMacNee (talk) 00:33, 16 April 2008 (UTC)

I assume you missed the tl;dr summary then. Accept it, and move on. 81.110.106.169 (talk) 00:50, 16 April 2008 (UTC)

Yes, people should accept it. After all, an encyclopedia ( or something billing itself as such ) shouldn't strive for facts or accuracy; as long as consensus is allegedly met, facts are irrelevant. Minkythecat (talk) 07:11, 16 April 2008 (UTC)

Um, yes we should strive for facts and accuracy - the official name of the competition we are talking about is the "FIFA World Cup" and that is where the article is situated. What facts are irrelevent or inaccurate here? - fchd (talk) 07:24, 16 April 2008 (UTC)

The only accurate fact here is that SOME users feel like they have the right to end a discussion whenever the hell they want. If this was about consensus then this discussion would continue until a middle point had been reached (read that as eliminating the db page we have right now) At least this humble User of yours is willing to accept some middle points. On the other hand, what do I get? A bunch of senseless disrespectful users, that think this is the place where they can decide what has to be done and when it can be done (referring here to the closing of the above discussion) you guys probably do it because this is the only area of knowledge where you feel brave enough to behave in such a way.(Except for Ricky who is a master in the area of corn). So, the conclusion here is that if you guys had at least a little bit of common sense at least, just at least would reconsider this whole issue. Look, you gotta thank god you can hide behind a computer of else I would have provided you with a beautiful Colombian necktie. My apologies for that last remark. I am just frustrated with the lack of common sense of the overwhelming majority of rugby players in here. Ygs!.68.197.6.70 (talk) 09:53, 16 April 2008 (UTC)