Talk:Minoan eruption

"The Santorini Event"

The page mentions "the Santorini event" but previously it had just talked about ashfall in Santorini. Is that what the "event" was? It seems that something is missing. Rodrigo braz 03:16, 15 November 2006 (UTC) 03:10, 15 November 2006 (UTC). I realize now what is missing. At no point the article mentions that Thera is one of the islands of the archipelago of Santorini. For the reader who doesn't know this, it just sounds like Santorini is another island, especially when it is mentioned the first time. Rodrigo braz 03:16, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

VEI

The VEI has been claimed by F. McCoy to be as high as 7. McCoy's claims, however, have not been published in the peer-reviewed literature. This has been discussed recently by many people on e-mail, where it has been pointed out that Keenan (reference cited in the article) presented evidence that the VEI has previously been overestimated (because it included the ash from Crete--this is also discussed in the article). Daphne A 05:03, 8 February 2006 (UTC)

A VEI of 7 and 60 km3 appear to be inconsistent. According to Volcanic Explosivity Index, 7 is greater than 100km3 and constitutes a super volcano. The University of RI source for the 60 km3 comes from:

"Santorini eruption much larger than originally believed". August 23, 2006. {{cite web}}: Unknown parameter |accesdate= ignored (|access-date= suggested) (help)

The McCoy claims of "up to 100 km3... (VEI = 7.0)" are found here:

McCoy, FW, & Dunn, SE (2002). "Modelling the Climatic Effects of the LBA Eruption of Thera: New Calculations of Tephra Volumes May Suggest a Significantly Larger Eruption than Previously Reported" (PDF). Chapman Conference on Volcanism and the Earth's Atmosphere. Thera, Greece: American Geographical Union. Retrieved 2007-05-29. {{cite conference}}: Unknown parameter |booktitle= ignored (|book-title= suggested) (help)CS1 maint: multiple names: authors list (link)

I'm going to make statement consistent and reduce the VEI to 6 per the U. RI reference which is newer than the McCoy Ref. Dspark76 (talk) 10:30, 11 March 2008 (UTC)

1645 BC?

Looking through past edits, it seems clear that whenever someone edits the page to say that the 1645 BC date is "under debate," someone always changes it to "proven incorrect." What is the general consensus? Hammer seems adamant that 1645 BC is correct but Manning on his site accepts the debunking of 1645 BC. I still don't fully understand why Keenan considers aeolian differentiation a non-issue in differences between the Greenland ash and Theran ash; I'd be grateful to have someone explain this to me. Also, does anyone know where in time are the other ash layers in the ice caps that could be Thera candidates? --Pryaltonian 07:04, 21 February 2006 (UTC)

Keenan [2003] treats aeolian differentian in his paragraphs 32-34:

Regarding aeolian differentiation, this would not seem to affect trace constituent abundances per se, and there is no obvious mechanism by which it would substantially affect major constituent abundances, especially for glass. ... Indeed, using the same reasoning [as Hammer], the Greenlandic tephra could be argued to match any (non-Arctic) eruption.

Also, N.J.G. Pearce et al. [Geochemistry Geophysics Geosystems, 2004] demonstrate that the ash from Greenland is much more similar to Aniakchak than to Thera. (Pearce et al. actually claim that the ash is from Aniakchak, but Keenan has a piece on his web site (www.informath.org/G^304aS.pdf) showing how Pearce et al. made errors in their statistics.)

Daphne A 11:21, 21 February 2006 (UTC)

If there was an Aniakchak eruption, then it might be responsible for the 1650 BC climate anomalies which Kuniholm found at Porsuk. That leaves the 1628 BC rings and the 1623 BC ice cores to be filed with the evidence from Thera itself. -- Zimriel 19:32, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

The climate anomalies found at Porsuk, Turkey, are identical with those found in California Bristlecone pines. Its both 1627 BC and some of the following years. --Bender235 23:02, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

There are more scientific studies that indicate that ice core data from both ca. 1645 and the 1629/28 period are not particularly related to this Thera eruption. A <link rel="stylesheet" type="text/css" href="http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User:Lupin/navpop.css&action=raw&ctype=text/css&dontcountme=s">quote from 'Zielinski, G. A. & Germani, M. S., 1998. "New Ice Core Evidence Challenges a 1620s B.C. Age for the Santorini (Minoan) Eruption", Journal of Archaeological Science 25, pp. 279-89.'

The layer of ice in the GISP2 (Greenland) ice core corresponding to 1623 ± 36 BC, which is probably correlative to the 1628/1627 BC event, not only contains a large volcanic-SO 4 2- spike, but it contains volcanic glass. Composition of this glass does not match the composition of glass from the Santorini eruption, thus severely challenging the 1620s BC age for the eruption. Similarly, the GISP2 glass does not match the composition of glass from other eruptions (Aniakchak, Mt. St. Helens, Vesuvius) thought to have occurred in the 17th century BC nor does it match potential Icelandic sources.

(abstract quoted, full abstract available at http://cat.inist.fr/?aModele=afficheN&cpsidt=2460360) On the whole, the archaeological date seems to be of more significance, as the technological dates are disputed. BTW, any works of Manning should be read with a grain of salt, as his eagerness to prove the older date clouds his conclusions. His dates are only after calibration, as before calibration they range well into the 14th century BC. He himself was one of the co-authors of the new calibration curve for c14-dating. Which should give some pause for thought. The archaeological dating method stands.Crusty007 01:15, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

Just to update the discussion.. Manning and others sustainers of Aegean long chronology have definitley admitted that there is no longer reliability on the identification of Theran ashes anywhere in the GRIP cores. Anyway, due to a revision of the sulphuric emissions estimate, it has been thought that the eruption could as well correspond to the 1579 (if i do correctly remember) or to the 1530 peaks (please correct me if you have more precise dates). Note that recently a biomedical researcher has published three articles on "Medical Hypotheses" arguing he can date the precursor phase to 1603 BC and the final event at 1601 BC, august.I am an archaeologist rather than a geophysical scientist and i don't dare give an opinion on radiocarbon dating, but from an archaeological point of view, the plausible reconstruction of interlinked chronology becomes harder and harder to reconcile with a date of 1600BC for the eruption-anyone would be of this opinion given the fact, for example, that we would have the same ceramic class (classic WS I) produced in Cyprus for about 140 yrs. Moreover new dates are to be published soon by W.Kutschera on "Radiocarbon" wich seem to show that Egyptian radiocarbon dating suffers an offset of about 100 yrs, that is entirely compatible with that supposed for the Aegean area by Keenan et al. (Bietak, perss.comm.). When those dates will be finally available we'll be able to push further the analysis on radiocarbon reliability for dating the eruption.

(Note: not all radiocarbon date suggest a calibrated range of 1630-1600 BC: for example one of three dates obtained from the tsunami deposit at Palaikastro (Bruins et al. 2008) allows a date as late as 1509 BC, or even in the XV century, with lesser probability.Again, dates from Golisar lake, Turkey, of the base of the tephra deposit gives possible calibrated ranges ending as late as cca 1480 BC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.211.246.211 (talk) 14:47, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

Somebody posted a link to the full-text Manning update below. Should be added. But regarding "Keenan et al"? Lest we forget, Keenan's contribution (statistics) to the study of this subject (i.e. the Minoan eruption), is rather limited: He applied the t-test on the data and thus reached the conclusion that the fragments were not from the Minoan eruption. But as pointed out by Pearce et al., and also by Manning, that statistical method is not appropriate for the type of data in question because it enhances the apparent differences between samples (which is probably why Keenan is seldom cited and almost never mentioned at all except in relation to Pearce, who helped him with subject expertise when he was putting together his journal article, according to Keenan's own article introduction). What the experts seem to be saying, in a nicer way, is that Keenan got lucky in this particular case because the method was applied to a material about which Pearce et al., albeit through the use of more appropriate methods, have also come to conclude was not from the Minoan eruption. For somebody who has no research experience in this field, a hobbyist with no university or other research facility affiliation, and with limited subject expertise (seems he's a former Wall Street trader with an M.Math degree from University of Waterloo and an academic publication count of 5 or so), being mentioned by scholars on this level, and getting an article in the subject published in a peer-reviewed journal to boot, is not bad, at all. Hats off to him for that. But does that make him an authoritative source for this article? I think not! The other sources you mention would seem valid additions though. 64.60.143.110 (talk) 07:43, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

LM What?

The section on "Impact on Minoan civilization" uses the abbreviations LM I and LM II, but they are niether explained nor linked to an explanatory article. At least one or the other ought to be done, for the benefit of those of us who have no idea what they refer to. [68.98.251.239 20:49, 29 May 2006]

Sorry. I've explained what "LM" means and why I'm using it as the master baseline; check under the "Dating the volcanic eruption" section. (Zimriel 18:21, 30 May 2006 (UTC))

Greek + Biblical "records" from 1600 BC

The legendary accounts from Greece and Israel do not count as contemporary records in the way of Egypt or even China. I've labeled them "traditions" and moved them to the end. - Zimriel 15:26, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

Thera eruption was bigger still

See BBC News article.--JyriL ^talk 23:08, 27 August 2006 (UTC)

Thanks! The full reference is

H. SIGURDSSON, S. CAREY, M. ALEXANDRI, G. VOUGIOUKALAKIS, K. CROFF, C. ROMAN, D. SAKELLARIOU, C. ANAGNOSTOU, G. ROUSAKIS, C. IOAKIM, A. GOGOU, D. BALLAS, T. MISARIDIS, and P. NOMIKOU.

"Marine Investigations of Greece’s Santorini Volcanic Field",

Eos 87 (34): 337,342,348 [22 August 2006].

Here is a quote (DRE = Dense-Rock Equivalent):

This young, widespread sequence is likely to be related to the 3600 year B.P. Minoan eruption of Santorini and may have been generated as a result of massive pyroclastic flow discharge into the sea. If the sequence consists of dominantly juvenile material from the Minoan eruption, then this would increase the total volume of erupted material estimated for this event. Volumetrically, the Minoan eruption deposit consists of four components: plinian ash fall from the main eruption column (2 cubic kilometers DRE), ash fall associated with pyroclastic flows (17 cubic kilometers [Watkins et al., 1978]), pyroclastic flow deposits on land on Santorini (1.5 cubic kilometers), and the newly mapped marine pyroclastic deposits around the volcano (41 cubic kilometers). Thus, the total volume of the event could be as high as 60 cubic kilometers DRE, nearly twice the previous estimate.

The estimate from Watkins et al. is an overestimate, but that does not make a large difference to the total.

(The two lead authors, Sigurdsson and Carey, are at the School of Oceanography, University of Rhode Island, in case anyone wants to mention it in the article.)

—Daphne A 10:12, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

It isn't clear how much of the new finds are from the Minoan eruption. To judge by the quote, the investigators don't seem to be extremely confident (?).  —Daphne A 19:05, 28 August 2006 (UTC) hi

Rename the article

This article should rather be named "Minoan eruption", since there have been numerous eruptions of Thera within the last 4000 years alone. "Minoan eruption" is more specific than "Thera eruption". --Bender235 23:05, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

I will rename it now. --Bender235 13:37, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

I don't know that this was a good idea. While it may be true that Thera eruption is vague, is there any evidence that Minoan eruption is even used in the scholarly world? This also presumes that this eruption caused the fall of the minoan civilization, which is not certain. I think it should probably be moved back. Thanatosimii 17:45, 28 February 2007 (UTC)

Neither of these titles is accurate. The Bronze Age Eruptions of Thera/Santorini would cover the bases adequately for archaeologists. Alternatively, The Eruptions of Thera/Santorini: 2nd Millennium BCE would cover geology, seismology, vulcanology, etc., as well. "Minoan eruption" is neither geographically precise -- it did not take place on Crete -- nor culturally accurate -- the eruption affected the entire Aegean and beyond, consisting of many Bronze Age cultures other than the Minoan. Is there any reason to privilege the Minoan civilization above all the others? --unsigned comment by It'sWhom (talk) 19:24, 24 March 2007 (UTC)

I believe the logic is that this explosion presumably ended the minoan civilization. However, as I have said, that is not certain. Thanatosimii 22:47, 24 March 2007 (UTC)

The article should almost certainly be renamed. As stated, the Minoans lived on Crete. The Bronze Age Therans tend to be considered Cycladic, although certainly influenced by Minoans. Either way, the eruption did not immediately end Minoan culture. It may have caused a decline, but the real end came at the end of the Bronze Age. See Bronze Age collapse. This would be like calling the eruption of Vesuvius the "Roman eruption".--SkiDragon 09:01, 23 September 2007 (UTC)

Essay entry

There are several points at which this becomes tendentious, presenting one editor's opinion of the right version. I do not claim that Galanopoulos is correct, but this is not the WP way to deal with a clear theory. I am not sure what more needs revision, but please read WP:NPOV; we're not here to argue for or against any version, even the right version. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 21:04, 31 January 2007 (UTC)

Size

In the paragraph "physical effects of the eruption" it states that only tambora released more material than this euption. My first point is yellowstone and toba's biggest eruptions released many times more material than this eruption and my second point is that there's conflicting arguments over the size of the taupo eruption in around 181 a.d. Supposedly that eruption released as much as 150 cubic km which would surpass even that of tambora in 1815. Wiki235 18:34, 3 May 2007 (UTC)

Wikipedia:WikiProject Paranormal

Why is this article, which deals with archeology, geology and other natural sciences, a part of the Paranormal project? The Atlantis connection? That's a stretch. Orangemarlin 00:51, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

I agree. Now removed. Verisimilus T 20:28, 18 May 2007 (UTC)

Buried bodies

First of all, the bodies at Herculaneum were not buried by ash, at least not in the same manner as at Pompeii. Secondly, during the excavation of Herculaneum, very few if any bodies were found, and it was thought that the town successfully evacuated.

To quote the article on Herculaneum: "It was long thought that nearly all of the inhabitants managed to escape because initial excavations revealed only a few skeletons. It wasn't until 1982 when the excavations reached boat houses on the beach area that this view changed. In 12 boat houses archaeologists discovered 250 skeletons huddled close together."

I think the article should be more clear in mentioning the possibility that a similar discovery could be made at Akrotiri, near the ancient shoreline.--SkiDragon 22:24, 19 May 2007 (UTC)

The article does state there is a possibility. However, it is not encylopedic to speculate broadly based on what happened at another location. Orangemarlin 00:14, 20 May 2007 (UTC)

Minoan Civilization subsection

The last line of this subsec (under "Historical impact") has an associated ref, and currently reads:

• "For instance, the palaces adopted a "Kouros"-god from the hills in addition to the Minoan goddess."

I read through the ref and found the relevant info near the bottom of p.6; I am not sure that the text we have now accurately reflects that provided in the ref. Based on how I read it, it seems that the Kouros statues were a standard (but perhaps recent) feature of the cult shrines in the LM I period, but they were torn down immediately before (or during, or after) the eruption, whereas our text indicates that they were a later addition to the shrines. Would someone else take a look at this and give their opinion? The relevant portion of the ref includes the last half of page 6 and first part of page 7. Doc Tropics 20:43, 22 May 2007 (UTC)

I guess I have to be serious for a moment. This article has undergone a large amount of revision over the past couple of months as we moved from a poorly written original research article to its current state. My guess is that one or more editors kept that statement longer than necessary. I like the article because it makes numerous references to the crisis in the civilization as a result of the Thera eruption. For example, there are references to pumice offerings. I say we delete the Kouros reference, because it would take a lot to discuss it. But the pumice offerings are a real volcanic rock that is related to the eruption. Maybe we should add back in something about pumice? Orangemarlin 20:56, 22 May 2007 (UTC)

That sounds good to me. I leaned towards deleting the "kouros" sentence, but didn't want to step on toes, especially since it did contain some salvageable content. I would definitely support including some good info about the pumice offerings; will you take that one since you seem to be familiar with it? FWIW - I haven't made many substantive changes yet because I haven't seen the need for many. All jesting aside, you did a good job on this piece before I got here. I think that with a more thorough polishing it would be reasonable to resubmit this and try to restore it's GA status. I'm also curious about what it would take to turn this into a Featured article...it certainly has the potential. Doc Tropics 21:22, 22 May 2007 (UTC)

Biblical traditions

OK, where do I start? I'm not opposed to having this section in the article, but it needs some serious work to meet even minimal standards for inclusion. Ref #28 doesn't actually say, or even imply, what our text currently asserts. As for ref #29, it frankly seems too poorly organized to qualify as a reliable source for anything. Since it seems possible that there might be some kind of biblical correlation with the eruption, I'd be interested in trying to find stronger refs, if there are any published refs that seem more reliable. I lack the ambition to tackle this issue immediately, but I'm interested in thoughts or suggestions. Doc Tropics 22:01, 22 May 2007 (UTC)

And I thought it was a good idea to ask your opinions on this? Remind me how to get you blocked again? LOL. Let me read those references. Orangemarlin 22:56, 22 May 2007 (UTC)

Despite the fact that you are a major pain in the tush, I think that you make some valid points. I believe that #28 should be used, because there is an interesting case to be made. If the author's date for the Thera eruption is correct, then the Exodus doesn't correlate well with the eruption, unless you push events around. But what if the eruption is correctly dated for early 1600 BCE (I'm not sure if 1620 BCE is early 1600 BCE or late...hard to reference a negative number), then Exodus makes more sense, as the Egyptians did not control Canaan then. Then again, it could be a huge myth with no historical basis. I'm starting to wonder if the whole chronology of the Mediterranean is messed up by 100 years, if the radiometric dating is accurate. It's hard to imagine that THAT many different radiometric measurements of the date of the eruption is off by so much--maybe archeologists got it wrong! BTW, #29 is useless. But I have a better one I'm going to add. Orangemarlin 23:08, 22 May 2007 (UTC)

OK, I saw the tweak to the first ref (#28), and that actually makes sense now. I suppose I might have found that myself if I had read further. As for asking my opinion, I just assumed you were having a senior moment. Regarding the dating issues, I would lean towards accepting the radiometric dating as more accurate, not that we need to make a distinction in the article. And now the next archeologist to read this is going to flay me alive, so it's probably not worth the effort of having me banned. Doc Tropics 23:15, 22 May 2007 (UTC)

This is really fascinating. Another author is stating that there several eruptions, although I doubt that the volcano could build a whole new caldera in 150 years (maybe, but I don't think so). So the catastrophic eruption may well have been 1450 BCE. Orangemarlin 23:35, 22 May 2007 (UTC)

Lead

I disagree with the edits of Drieakko for the following reasons:

1. The date is in dispute and it's not 50 years, but closer to 150 years.
2. If the date of eruption as shown by radiometric studies and tree-ring analysis differs from the archeological estimates by 150 years, that's a significant change to historical and archeological analysis of the area. That should be in the lead.
3. The lead should be sync with what is written in the rest of the article. The changes would have made the lead in opposition to the article.
4. If you don't understand the comments in the edits, why would you revert without pursuing an answer that you did understand?

Those are my opinions. Orangemarlin 19:48, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

I was reviewing the article for GA and immediately stopped at the lead that sounded difficult for an average reader that just wanted to know what this is about. I give my review comments and move forward. --Drieakko 20:02, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

Ah. A couple of us editing wanted to add more information about the dating issue in the lead because it was interesting and notable. You disagree? And if it is too confusing for the average reader, I'd rather have a reviewer make it more readable than not. Orangemarlin 20:11, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

(edit conflict):OK, there are 3 of us working here now, and I'd definitely prefer to avoid edit warring; I was really enjoying some peaceful and productive work on the article. Regarding the last portion of the first paragraph, I think it was better in the original form (before Drieakko's changes). The info was accurate and it seems important enough to warrant an early mention with more details to follow in the body. However, regarding the date "around 1600", I do think this is also good info to include in the intro. Maybe a compromise would satisfy everyone; since the earliest (generally accepted) date is 1650 BCE, and the latest is around 1550, what if we express it like this:

• The Bronze Age Minoan eruption of Thera (or Santorini), around 1600 BC (+/- 50 years), is considered to be..."

This makes the general figure immediately available, while providing an "accuray range" to indicate the possible variance. I'd also be open to rewriting the end of the paragraph for clarity, as long as we keep the info. Doc Tropics 20:14, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

Take a look at the reviewers comments below. I particularly enjoy the remarks about Atlantis, which always bothered me about this article. I used a good reference on global climate changes, which I need to incorporate in the article. Orangemarlin 20:22, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

Speculation?

In "physical effects of the eruption", the end of the third para reads thus:

• Further archeological excavations at the site may eventually result in finding bodies similar to those found at Pompeii that were buried by the ash of the catastrophic eruption of Mount Vesuvius in 79 AD.

While it is an intersting comparison, the specualtive nature of this statement makes me a little uneasy. Would it be better to rewrite this, delete it, or am I being too sensitive and we should leave it as-is? Doc Tropics 21:30, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

I think it should be left, or perhaps rewritten. Certainly, the sites of Pompeii/Herculaneum and Akrotiri are very similar, both being buried by volcanic eruption, and both being very well preserved, especially wall paintings. Certainly a comparison should be made. What is more speculative, I think, is that all the inhabitants made it out safely. Just because no bodies have yet been found does not mean that nobody died. See my earlier comment on Herculaneum.--SkiDragon 23:41, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

But speculation is not our job. Is there perhaps a reference we could use that does indeed speculate? Orangemarlin 23:51, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

(edit conflict) I agree that the similarities are there, and as I said, I do think the comparison is interesting. My hesitation is because I'm not sure that it's proper for us to draw the comparison ourselves...that is what seems to border on original research. If only we had a ref that showed someone else making the comparison, it wouldn't be a problem. As it stands, I'm still on the fence about including it without a ref. Doc Tropics 23:56, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

Heh. It seems that OM and I are "on the same page" with this: A proper ref for the text would make it bulletproof, but without one we should probably err on the side of exclusion. Doc Tropics 23:59, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

Here is a source, although not exactly scholarly: http://www.vrsantorini.com/ It is pretty similar to what I have already said.--SkiDragon 00:19, 24 May 2007 (UTC)

While it doesn't look like a scholarly website (too attractive and well designed), the article itself certainly sounds scholarly; ie, it was clearly written by an academic. As a ref, this is stronger than many things I've seen included in other articles, and I'm willing to accept it. Thaks for finding it, that was good work : ) Doc Tropics 00:51, 24 May 2007 (UTC)

• Um, we may have an issue here. Initially, I only read through the first half of the ref to verify its content and quality. After posting the above I went back and read the rest of it. In the latter half of the linked site, there are several pieces of text that match ours...word for word. If this site was used for research on our article then it's a fairly simple fix: we just need to rewrite our text to avoid any possible copyvio. On the other hand, if the site copied their content from WP, then we can't use it at all because we can't use ourselves as a ref. Please review the linked site and share your thoughts on this. Doc Tropics 00:58, 24 May 2007 (UTC)

That reference used to be in the article a few months ago. I took it out because I was convinced that it mirrored the article here. In addition, there are so many outstanding references for this eruption, I think we can find a better one. You should look through Thera Foundation Articles. I did a search a while ago, and found nothing. I'm inclined to delete the sentence until we have references. Orangemarlin 01:20, 24 May 2007 (UTC)

OK, if it's a mirror-site, that at least relieves my copyvio concerns, but does rule it out as a ref. Since I still agree that the text has potential to be useful and informative, let me suggest a compromise: we can copy the text into this section while deleting it from the article. That way it remains easily available when a ref is found, and then we can copy it back in. Any objections? Doc Tropics 01:38, 24 May 2007 (UTC)

Go for it before you're permanently banned for vandalism of my user page.  :) Orangemarlin 01:43, 24 May 2007 (UTC)

OM, you can't vandalize a vandal...those were official warnings that you removed! I'll wait to hear from SkiDragon before acting, but I do think this is a good short-term solution. Doc Tropics 01:48, 24 May 2007 (UTC)

Conversions

I had previously started adding conversions in parenthesis (metric to English) because it seemed like a good idea at the time. Looking at it now though, I really rather dislike the appearance of the page with so many parenthetical inserts. Since no policy actually requires the conversions (at least, that I know of), I'm now second-guessing myself. I'd appreciate any input on whether I should finish adding the conversions, or remove the ones I've already put in. Thanks. Doc Tropics 18:09, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

Really, we put in the conversions for the dumb Americans (I think I'm taking Canadian citizenship temporarily), so maybe they are unnecessary. Orangemarlin 19:41, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

OK, I've decided to adopt a funny accent and tell people I'm Australian. G'day mate! Doc Tropics 19:55, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

Dormancy

Dormancy is not something that occured once, this last cycle. It's simply a non-eruptive stage in the life cycle of a volcano. The prior volcanos had periods of dormancy. I'm not really sure what you are trying to say about the ignimbrite. A volcano explodes, cools, there is rock at the surface, and a magma chamber below. The magma chamber explodes violently, emptying completely, and collapses, the rock at the surface, in the cone, collapses into the emptyied magma chamber, this is a caldera. So, what about the ignimbrite? Maybe if you quoted the book here on the talk page I could see where you are going. KP Botany 18:34, 26 May 2007 (UTC)

I appreciate the clarification. The reference stated that the caldera slowly filled with ash from the growing volcano displacing the seawater. I think that's where the ignimbrite was referenced. I think I might have given more weight to that particular part of the cycle than was critical. In fact, it's probably not relevant to the Minoan eruption itself. I read your edits, and it sounds much better. Orangemarlin 05:35, 27 May 2007 (UTC)

Minoa?

What is meant by this sentence in the "Historical impact" section? "Earlier historians and archaeologists assumed that the effect on Minoa was more substantial because of the depth of pumice found on the sea floor." I do not know of this "Minoa". Is Thera or Crete meant? --Akhilleus (talk) 05:55, 2 June 2007 (UTC)

Thera is the volcano, which has erupted numerous times over the past few hundred thousand years. The eruption is called the Minoan eruption to refer to the fact that it probably destroyed the Minoan Civilization of Crete. Minoa is the culture, people, and/or civilization extant on Crete at the time of the eruption of Thera. Orangemarlin 06:44, 2 June 2007 (UTC)

I've never seen the term "Minoa" used to describe the Minoan civilization, so I'm changing "Minoa" to "Crete" in that sentence. --Akhilleus (talk) 17:10, 2 June 2007 (UTC)

Bietak shows the eruption happened around 1450-1500 BCE

This theory is not supported by current archaeological evidence which show no pumice layers at Avaris or elsewhere in Lower Egypt during the reigns of Ahmose I and Thutmosis III.

That is simply false. The recent excavations at ancient Avaris led by Professor Manfred Bietak showed that Theran pumice was found in an early D18 layer (between Ahmose I and Thutmose III). Bietak dismissed the C14 and dendro dates because it would require an eruption in early Hyksos times.

Can we change this sentence in the article ? --Squallgreg 09:09, 20 June 2007 (UTC)

Provide sources, using WP:CITET (trying to keep this GA), make sure it's a verifiable and peer-reviewed source, and we'll get it right. We want to get this article to FA status during the summer, so anything that makes it better helps. However, I still think C14 and dendro dates are going to prove accurate someday, and we'll be changing the chronology of Egypt. This could be very interesting. Orangemarlin 16:55, 20 June 2007 (UTC)

The chronological disagreement is between what is described elsewhere in WP as "Relative" dating methods (archeological) and "Absolute" dating methods (radio, dendro). WP needs to lean to the Absolute, objective, scientific date. The rather flexible assumptions of the sequential pottery-based timelines cannot trump the physics.

Just because Egyptologists don't want to re-write their history does not mean they get to ignore the new research. Further, there is far more dispute within Egyptology over the validity of various chronologies (three or more!) than there is in physics or dendro about the validity of the radio and dendro dates. That alone indicates that Egyptian archeology is a substantially less exact discipline, and one more prone to subjective evaluation.

Additionally, the methods and findings of radio and dendro have been independently corroborated many times before in other historical contexts. Egyptology is largely a self-contained system with few outside checks. Which is, after all, central problem: Egyptian chronology suffers from a severe lack of hard synchronisms with the surrounding civilizations, especially in this period. It seems foolish to reject such strong evidence for such a major event.

Finally, there is the dog that doesn't bark. Thera was a HUGE eruption. It's impact in the rest of the ANE seems to fit quite well into all the existing timelines save Egypt. Yet there is as yet no counter-narrative from Egyptologists that explains how the signals and evidence from Thera can be otherwise explained (aside from attempts to assert that it didn't happen at all!), or how the rest of the ANE could be wrong about such a major event! Where is the support for the Egytian Chronology in Greece, Anatolia, or Mesopotamia? Why is there no fierce resistance from scholars in those sub-disciplines to the proposed radio and dendro dates? In fact, despite the dispute between some radio and some dendro dates, they disagree by merely 25 years; the Conventional Egyptian Chronology disagrees by 100+ years, and places Thera in a period rejected by BOTH 'hard science' methods. We may not know which is 100% right. But we can easily see which is 100% wrong. 65.207.2.2 20:23, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

I did not make that last edit but I think it should remain "story". Saying it's a story does not make any judgement on truth, but saying it's a myth implies it's false, which I think is more a point of view than the simple fact that it's a story.--SkiDragon 04:20, 18 September 2007 (UTC)

Change of name of article

I am not opposed to changing the name of the article to better reflect the eruption. Santorini eruption of course may refer to any number of eruptions in both the historical and prehistorical periods. Any name we choose must be supported by academic references. IMHO, Minoan eruption is used academically. However, not being a vulcanologist, Egyptologist or Santorini-ologist, and not playing one one TV either, I would suggest we change it to what is commonly used! OrangeMarlin ^{Talk• Contributions} 17:54, 24 September 2007 (UTC)

As the one who renamed the article in Dec. 2006 I strongly oppose. Minoan eruption is much more specific than Thera eruption, since Thera erupted multiple times. --Bender235 (talk) 01:36, 12 March 2008 (UTC)

Oppose, same reason. However, I think it would be valuable in the intro sentence to mention something like "The Minoan Eruption, also referred to as the Thera Eruption or Santorini Eruption, was..." Dspark76 (talk) 00:57, 13 March 2008 (UTC)

Oppose as well - I understand that you are aiming for less ambiguity, Orangemarlin, and that's to be commended, but if you can cite where another term is more commonly used by the academic community than, say Thera eruption, I would find it a far more compelling reason to consider changing the name of the article. The redirects seem to be in place. - Arcayne (^{cast a spell}) 04:55, 13 March 2008 (UTC)

As another example, see the articles for the Hatepe eruption and the Oruanui eruption at Lake Taupo. Dspark76 (talk) 14:32, 15 March 2008 (UTC)

Not a bad example. Thoughts? - Arcayne (^{cast a spell}) 14:58, 15 March 2008 (UTC)

Since I haven't seen any objection, I will add the "...also referred to as the Thera Eruption or Santorini Eruption" bit to the intro... But if someone would rather not or do it a different way, say so here and I'll fix it. Dspark76 (talk) 20:03, 16 March 2008 (UTC)

Major Eruptions during the History of Civilization

The article mentions:

Only the Mount Tambora volcanic eruption of 1815 CE released more material into the atmosphere during historic times.

Mount Tambora is estimated at ~160 km3 (VEI = 7).

It seems that the Hatepe eruption of Lake Taupo circa 180 CE would then rank as #2 at 120 km3 (VEI = 7). The estimates for the Minoan eruption range from 60-100 km3 placing it at third. Dspark76 (talk) 08:27, 16 March 2008 (UTC)

Can you make sure that this is cited? I haven't looked at your edits, so if you have, excellent! OrangeMarlin ^{Talk• Contributions} 08:32, 16 March 2008 (UTC)

I haven't added this to the article yet. I am still looking over the references and if everything checks out, I'll make the change with citations. Thanks for the feedback. Dspark76 (talk) 08:46, 16 March 2008 (UTC)

Found this reference for 120km2 VEI=7: http://www.volcano.si.edu/world/volcano.cfm?vnum=0401-07=&volpage=erupt Dspark76 (talk) 09:22, 16 March 2008 (UTC)

The Tianchi eruption of Baekdu around 1000 CE was probably also bigger, although there is some uncertainty about this. The Smithsonian volcanism program website gives a tephra volume range of 76-116 km3 for that eruption. -- Avenue (talk) 09:19, 16 March 2008 (UTC)

This link gives 96 +/- 19 km3 for Baekdu: http://www.springerlink.com/content/1x63hxtlyt0yajfj/. Also this table: http://books.google.com/books?id=EZXj87n_mJgC&pg=PA277&dq=Taupo+VEI&sig=w6cXdgOH_8eLgrbnNYWqyZj7gzo#PPA275,M1 also rates Baekdu as VEI=7.

I think that the statement (above) relating the Minoan eruption to Tambora may be misleading. I would suggest that we soften the statement a little such as:

The minoan eruption was amongst the largest eruptions during the history of civilization, comparable to the 180 CE Hatepe eruption of Lake Taupo and the 1000 CE Tianchi eruption of Baekdu and surpased by the 1815 CE eruption of Mount Tambora. -- Dspark76 (talk) 10:11, 16 March 2008 (UTC)

Proposals for new sections

I would like to propose / suggest the addition of 2 new sections:

• Atlantis

The Atlantis legend and its link to this eruption deserves some mention, at least briefly. It is currently mentioned in the intro, but nowhere in the body (which is discouraged by the guidlines for a good intro)... I would suggest expanding it to at a few sentences under either the historical impact section or as a new section. Text can be transcribed from Location_hypotheses_of_Atlantis#Crete_and_Santorini.

• Thera Today

Some mention should be made about ongoing volcanic/geothermal activity and possibility of furture erruptions. Some good starting points can be found at:

• http://www.uri.edu/endeavor/thera/hydrothermal.html
• http://www.uri.edu/endeavor/thera/kolumbo.html

Anyway, I might start working on this (but not today) after I do a little more checking of the references. If anyone has any ideas or comments, please post them here. Thanks --Dspark76 (talk) 11:52, 16 March 2008 (UTC)

Atlantis was deleted from this article long ago. Atlantis is a pseudoscientific concept, and any information about it should be placed in an article about the legend. Let's keep this article based on science and verified information. I agree that current volcanic activity would be interesting, since I was wondering about that.OrangeMarlin ^{Talk• Contributions} 16:48, 16 March 2008 (UTC)

Let me revise my opinion about Atlantis. It's still pseudoscience and pseudoarcheology. However, it rate a couple of sentences in "Greek Traditions." But let's not give undue weight to a legend. In other words, let's stick with verified sources that Plato actually meant the Minoan eruption in his legend of Atlantis. Let's not add speculation that Atlantis existed someplace. It didn't. OrangeMarlin ^{Talk• Contributions} 17:32, 16 March 2008 (UTC)

Both are good ideas. I have just been told in another context though that you can't copy and paste someone else's text as it belongs to them, so something new will have to be written.--Doug Weller (talk) 12:54, 16 March 2008 (UTC)

I figured that his topic had come up before.  :) I'm ok with keeping the atlantis bit short, maybe 2 or 3 sentences. The association between the Atlantis legend and the Minoan eruption is certainly notable based on the number of sources (and entire books) written on the subject. We shouldn't claim that the legend is real or imply that Thera or Crete are confirmed locations, but simply note that the connection has been made. The statement however, can not be maintained in the intro paragraph (the article would never pass FA in that condition). I would actually suggest that it doesnt need to be there at all if it was included somewhere in the body. Finally, I'm not sure what you mean by "verified sources that Plato actually meant the Minoan eruption in his legend of Atlantis". No such reference is really plausable or should be considered valid. Noone with certainty can say what Plato's story is based on. What I'm proposing is to state 1) a connection has been proposed, 2) give one or two points of the connections (ie tsunami = swallowed by the sea), and 3) cite two or three sources that have proposed such connections. Please let me know if you think this is not appropriate. Thanks -- Dspark76 (talk) 19:35, 16 March 2008 (UTC)

Super Volcano?

Wasn't there some talk about how the Minoan eruption was the result of a supervolcano? I haven't cites for it, but if someone else has heard the same sort of thing,I'll look around for it. - Arcayne (^{cast a spell}) 16:41, 16 March 2008 (UTC)

Please see the VEI topic above. Talk:Minoan_eruption#VEI -- Dspark76 (talk) 13:46, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

Please tell me this is an attempt at humour

Exodus mentions that the Israelites were guided by a "pillar of smoke" during the day and a "pillar of fire" at night, which many scholars have speculated that it refers to volcanic activity.

The Israelites could have seen the pillar of smoke and fire from Thera, almost a thousand kilometres away? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.251.121.117 (talk) 15:21, 1 May 2008 (UTC)

Good point. Anyway, I hate to see 'many scholars'. And pillar of smoke? Don't people read the Bible before telling us what it says? It's 'cloud', not 'smoke'. Actually, the article here: [1] has this in Google "canic ash spread upward as a pillar of fire and clouds into. the atmosphere and blocked out the ..... dence Could Link Volcano to Biblical Exodus."" "Science and the Miracles of Exodus Colin Humphreys,Department of Materials Science & Metallurgy, University of Cambridge,[2] says "Here is what the book of Exodus says:“By day the Lord went ahead of them in a pillar of cloud to guide them on their way and by night in a pil- lar of fire to give them light, so that they could travel by day or night. Neither the pillar of cloud by day nor the pillar of fire by night left its place in front of the people”(Exodus 13: 20-22). The traditional interpretation of the pillars of cloud and fire is that these pillars were just in front of the Israelites and that they moved with them as they marched, rather like tour group leaders holding up a rolled umbrella and walking at the head of the group. But the book of Exodus does not imply that the pillars of cloud and fire were just in front of the Israelites, and neither does it state that they were moving pillars; they could have been a con- siderable distance ahead and fixed, like a beacon on a hill giving light. There is, in fact, a natural event that fits perfectly the descrip- tion “pillar of cloud by day and pillar of fire by night”: a volcanic eruption. Why does a volcano often appear to emit cloud by day and fire by night? Physics provides the answer.In a volcanic erup- tion huge towering flames leap out of a volcano surrounded by thick clouds of vapour. By day, often only the surrounding cloud is visible, reflecting the light of the sun. But by night the cloud is invisible and the volcanic fire becomes visible. Similarly in a smoky bonfire seen from a distance, by day you see mainly the smoke and by night mainly the flames. Figures 3 and 4 show a typical pillar of fire by night and pillar of cloud by day emitted by a volcano." He seems to have written a book on it, and his website is here: [3]. --Doug Weller (talk) 16:31, 1 May 2008 (UTC)

Coordinates.

I am not sure how useful coordinates are for an event that had far-reaching effects and happened so long ago, but in any case, shouldn't they be in the center of the island, at Nea Kameni? Unless the eruption was actually centered on one of the modern towns on the island, but I doubt it.--SkiDragon (talk) 01:48, 5 May 2008 (UTC)

Manning clarification

Could consider adding a reference for the more recent Manning clarification of his position http://dendro.cornell.edu/articles/manning2007a.pdf Ploversegg (talk) 23:54, 19 May 2008 (UTC)ploversegg

Geochemistry

Wikipedia should cite relevant peer-reviewed literature on the subject of the article. The paper by Keenan (2003) was published in the geochemistry journal with the highest impact factor, is entirely about the tephra, and has not been rebutted by any other work in the peer-reviewed literature (that I could find). Hence it should be cited. (The argument given against citing it, that the author is a "statistician with minimal and peripheral involvement in the subject", is ad homenim, hence meritless.) None of this implies that Keenan's paper is right or wrong: the criterion for Wikipedia is not truth, but WP:verifiability.  217.42.16.203 (talk) 05:43, 1 June 2008 (UTC)

Since Keenan's only contribution to this subject is one low-impact article (=one not widely cited, and, when it does show up somewhere, as in Manning, mentioned primarily as a footnote when Pearce's contributions are discussed), it would not appear to meet even the above user's own "highest impact factor" requirement. It also fails Wikipedia's requirement for WP:Reliable_sources#Scholarship. The problem is two-fold: the use of such a limited source (=a source in which a non-scholar reached a conclusion through questionable or tiny-minority methods/methodology, in a field where he has no expertise, and where mainstream scholars do not endorse his findings due to the way they were established), violates WP:UNDUE#Undue_weight as spelled out in the policy entry for Reliable sources - scholarship: "To give undue weight to a significant-minority view, or to include a tiny-minority view, might be misleading as to the shape of the dispute." Several sentences attributed to Keenan are unrelated to his controversial application of a certain statistical method to the data, such as the sentence "''The ash found on Crete is now known to have been from a precursory phase of the eruption, some weeks or months before the main eruptive phases, and would have had little impact on the island...''".<ref name="Keenan"/>. This is certainly not "known" through any of the mentioned author's "contributions" - there is no reason whatsoever to attribute such information to someone who has no published field research, and who appears to have no first-hand knowledge of archeological impact studies undertaken on Crete. To have this person appearing as an authority on the subject by attributing categorical statements to him, such as "at one time, it was believed that...", that he "demonstrated that this was not...", his finds "leading to the conclusion that...", etc., etc., in a high-profile scholarly dispute like this one, gives an almost comical impression. As per Wikipedia:Reliable_sources#Scholarship: "The scholarly credentials of a source can be established by verifying the degree to which the source has entered mainstream academic discourse, for example by checking the number of scholarly citations it has received in google scholar or other citation indexes." Such a search renders extremely meager results for this author whose main claim to fame instead appears to be related to a series of sensational fraud accusations in different fields, forwarded mainly on blogs (apart from the "fame" of a lot of Google hits generated by having his personal web site listed as a source on Wikipedia in a variety of subjects). The second part of the problem is the removal of researchers with opposing views regarding the ice core data: there is no consensus among scholars on this issue - the attempt to imply that this is so in order to promote a certain low-impact article is inappropriate. In addition, the eagerness by which this name and web site is promoted with the help of a very small group of user names/IPs on Wikipedia does not inspire much confidence in my eyes. Sorry, can't agree with the use of Keenan as an authority in this subject. 64.60.143.110 (talk) 11:41, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

The impact factor is for the journal; it does not apply to articles. Keenan's article has appeared in the geochemistry journal with the highest impact factor and has not be contradicted anywhere in the peer-reviewed literature (as far as I could tell). It is Keenan's paper that is important here; I do not understand why you think that it fails WP:Reliable_sources#Scholarship ("this means published in peer-reviewed sources, and reviewed and judged acceptable scholarship by the academic journals"). On the other hand, have you read this review by Manfred Bietak?--the scholarship of Manning is disputed there.

I am also curious about your comment regarding "archeological impact studies undertaken on Crete". Would you elaborate on that? There is solid evidence of a tsunami, but the Minoans nonetheless continued for some years. How does this affect the argument?

217.42.16.203 (talk) 12:21, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

What does the scholarly dispute between Bietak and Manning have to do with your use of Kennan as an authority on this subject?? Only one of them appears to have a brief footnote in passing on Keenan (ie. on his problematic use of a certain statistical method on the ice core data). I don't see this name appearing in Bietak's text. Would you mind pointing out the page number where he is mentioned by Bietak? Manning and Bietak are authoritative sources, bona fide scholars with PhD degrees and tenured positions, with research and credentials endorsed by universities and research institutions, who are extensively published and extensively cited by the academic community at large. They continuously contribute and they have documented impact on each other and on other researchers who have continuously revised their conclusions based on various contributions throughout the years. Kennan is none of these things and has ONE SOLE article published on the subject in a peer-reviewed journal, in which he used methods that have been rebutted by Pearce and Manning. I have not been able to locate anybody who actually endorses the way he used a certain method on this data to reach a certain conclusion. Please point them out so that we may perceive what "impact" he has had on the subject and if that is indeed enough to warrant mention (perhaps in relation to Pearce's research). Also: Please explain why a non-academic with no independent research, with one article published, should be cited as an authority, rather than a combination of scholars with different views who have decades of research experience and/or research projects that have been scrutinized through vetting procedures for PhD theses, and who between themselves have a very large amount of peer-reviewed articles published in well-renowned academic journals? Regarding the request that I elaborate on impact studies: The reason I brought up the subject of field research is that Keenan is quoted by 217.42.16.203 as an authority on how the island was impacted ("The ash found on Crete is now known to have been from a precursory phase of the eruption, some weeks or months before the main eruptive phases, and would have had little impact on the island."<ref name="Keenan"/>''). The subject under discussion is the use of Keenan as an authority on various aspects of the Minoan eruption. My point is that he has not contributed research or anything else to the study of how the island was impacted, and thus cannot be attributed as an authority on this issue. 64.60.143.110 (talk) 22:21, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

The same individual has been heavily promoted and repeatedly inserted into a host of articles and article talk pages related to global warming and dendrochronology (including being used as a source for the article Maşat Höyük through the use of an unpublished essay on a personal site). In my opinion it is important to stay with mainstream and authoritative sources in order to avoid having Wikipedia become a vehicle for politically motivated agendas that normally lie outside the scope of academic pursuits. Although there is of course no guarantee that the collaborations and disputes developing within the mainstream scientific community will lead to unbiased results, the main aim and interest among scholars can still be more generally assumed to be to contribute to the growth of scientific knowledge in a particular field in a NPOV way. That aim normally excludes creating blogs regarding unsubstantiated fraud allegations when one's theories do not pass peer-review and remain unpublished. 71.107.2.244 (talk) 02:51, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

You do not seem to be understanding. First,scientific publication is much preferred to be in a peer-reviewed journal, according to Wikipedia policy. Second, in judging scientific journals, the journal's impact factor is widely considered. Third, there is no "impact factor" for a particular paper. Fourth, did you find a rebuttal of Keenan in a peer-reviewed journal?

(It would be nicer if you could use paragraphs in your writing.)

This looks to be about statistics. You said that Keenan is a statistician (though I cannot see this from a quick look at Keenan's web site). Why are you claimng that Manning knows more about statistics than a statistian? I just googled a bit, and found this comment from Keenan claiming that Manning does not understand the concept of standard deviation, and citing his own peer-reviewed paper: has Manning rebutted that anywhere?

You say "point is that he has not contributed research or anything else to the study of how the island was impacted, and thus cannot be attributed as an authority on this issue" makes no sense. This is about geochemistry.

217.42.16.203 (talk) 03:10, 3 June 2008 (UTC)