Talk:Tibet

GA delist

I see this was once a Good Article, then delisted. Why was it delisted? What do we need to do to regain GA status? Bertport (talk) 13:50, 1 August 2008 (UTC)

According to the archived notice, it was delisted due to lack of inline citations on controversial claims. Since every claim about Tibet is controversial, I suppose the way to get back to GA status is to get a good citation for every sentence. --Gimme danger (talk) 01:49, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

Republic of China represention of Tibet

it has come to my knowledge that the government of the republic of china had a "Tibet area" which is consiribly smaller than the present day TAR of the people's republic of china. this is due to the fact that Xikang is now been absorbed into neighbouring Tibet and sichaun provinces. so therefore i must advice Wikipedians to change the map of tibet on the top of the article to show the KMT defination of tibet.Antalope (talk) 19:06, 1 August 2008 (UTC) xikang province is rel and tibet is smaller!!!!!!!!! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.13.175.78 (talk) 11:03, 8 August 2008 (UTC)

The area ruled from Lhasa in the 1920s and 1930s was approximately the same as Tibet Autonomous Region. Xikang was a province that existed only on maps. The Tibetan name for the region is Kham. Kauffner (talk) 06:03, 13 August 2008 (UTC)

Kham / Xikang more or less consisted of a number of Tibetan principalities with their own rulers i.e. not really controlled by the Ganden Phodrang Govenment in Lhasa or by China. - Getting into details of that could be a whole other can of worms. Chris Fynn (talk) 14:28, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

The eastern part of Khams was ruled by principalities (Derge, etc.) but the western part in the 20s and 30s was ruled from Lhasa, no? Chamdo is in Kham and the Ganden Phodrang would send a zhabpä there as governor-general.—Nat Krause^{(Talk!·What have I done?)} 18:26, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

tags on leading paragraphs

Someone just added a lot of citation tags to the leading paragraphs. Do we really need citations in the lead? Everything in the lead should be elaborated, with citations provided, in the body of the article. Bertport (talk) 22:35, 5 August 2008 (UTC)

Citations should be included everywhere there is a statement, including the introduction, and especially on such a contentious article. "Tibet was once an independent kingdom" is a statement, and needs a citation. You can find out how to link to references already given further down the page at WP:Cite, as well as read about Wikipedia's policy requiring citing of challengable material. --Joowwww (talk) 13:44, 6 August 2008 (UTC)

Dear Joowwww: I certainly don't want to start and edit war with you - so I will add a reference as you requested. It does seem to me, however, unnecessary here as I don't think anyone, even the most ardent PRC supporter, would try to argue that Tibet has never been an independent kingdom. This is a completely untenable position considering the many wars between Tibet and China and the fact that at one point Tibet actually captured the Chinese capital of Chang'an. Anyway - enough time wasted on this - please see the reference I have added. Cheers, John Hill (talk) 23:45, 6 August 2008 (UTC)

I never said it was or it wasn't, I only requested a reference on a statement. --Joowwww (talk) 09:42, 7 August 2008 (UTC)

Tibet under The People's Republic of China

This sentence: "Chinese sources claim rapid progress for prosperous, free, and happy Tibetans participating in democratic reforms, although nothing like a free and open election has ever occurred in Tibet under Chinese rule.

is biased in its wording. To take the point further, some people may not consider the American electoral system completely free and open considering that the president is elected by electoral college rather than directly by the voters. It should be changed to something like this:

"Although Chinese sources present rapid progress for prosperous, free, and happy Tibetans participating in democratic reforms (find a reference), these claims are highly disputed by Tibetans themselves (source 53)."

Do you mean by some Tibetans or by all Tibetans? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.155.102.52 (talk) 23:21, 13 August 2008 (UTC)

The wording accurately characterizes the content of the source cited. Bertport (talk) 02:15, 9 August 2008 (UTC)

The wording may accurately characterize the content of the source, but the point of the article is not to present a single source as the final word on a subject. If the sentence is to be left alone it needs to be made clear that the entire wording is paraphrased from that single source. Goldste7 05:26, 9 August 2008 (EST)

NPOV

In the name section, the article states:

"PRC scholars favor the theory that "Tibet" is derived from tǔbō."

This sentence contains many implications, assumptions and may not necessarily be true. Could someone please change it to

"Some scholars favor the theory that "Tibet" is derived from tǔbō."

? Thank you very much. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 124.176.195.218 (talk) 05:04, 10 August 2008 (UTC)

Identifying the source of a theory or claim is the key to neutrality. If anything, the sentence should be more specific, rather than less. "Some scholars" is what we call a weasel word. --Gimme danger (talk) 01:45, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

Grunfeld as "Unreliable Source"?

I deleted the unreliable source next to the quotation from A. Tom Grunfeld's The Making of Modern Tibet. Grunfeld certainly isn't unreliable. The NY Council of Humanities describes him here: "A. Tom Grunfeld is SUNY Distinguished Teaching Professor at Empire State College of the State University of New York. He is a historian who specializes in the teaching of modern East Asian history with an emphasis on China and Tibet. He has been traveling and living in that region since 1966. He has published several books and over 150 articles and book reviews including The Making of Modern Tibet. He has lectured and presented papers at academic conferences in numerous countries around the world." I think that means he's pretty established. And after checking Google Books, the page number is correct, and the passage is identical. I really don't know why someone tagged him as unreliable. If we start politicizing citations, we've kind of lost the war. If someone would like to challenge this, I'd be more than happy to discuss it rationally. There's so much disinformation about Tibet that scholarship is really are only hope. Let's not ruin that. Icetitan17 (talk) 19:34, 10 August 2008 (UTC)

Agreed. --Gimme danger (talk) 01:46, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

I'd describe what Grunfeld does as a clever imitation of scholarship. I once looked up about 30 of his citations at random. I found that about 50 percent of time, he seriously misrepresented his source. His version almost always makes China look better and Tibet look worse, compared to what his "source" says. The guy gets fawning coverage in the Chinese media, so the communists seem to be in on whatever it is he's doing. Kauffner (talk) 05:37, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

It's trivial to find citations from notable experts saying that Grunfeld is unreliable. Can't we find some other source to include in the article instead of Grunfeld?—Nat Krause^{(Talk!·What have I done?)} 12:18, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

Kauffner you seem to be making a lot of conjectures without offering much in the way of proof. Grunfeld's book is not self-published, nor is he an acknowledged fringe source. He doesn't seem to violate any of the criteria on the Reliable Sources page, so it would seem that any conclusions drawn upon the merit of Grunfeld's scholarship are based on original research. It seems to me that in order to present a Neutral Point of View in the article, China's side of the Tibetan argument must be argued as well as the Tibetan side. If anyone feels that Grunfeld's conclusions are biased or a secret communist conspiracy (as you seem to imply), then find a source to counter the argument. We can't choose to ignore a source simply because we don't like what it says. Icetitan17 (talk) 17:05, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

I don't think that anyone ought to object to including Grunfeld as an example of a particular POV. The question is (or should be) whether he is a reliable source of facts. The section of the article in question in this case has bigger problems than that, which I had been meaning to bring up on the talk page.—Nat Krause^{(Talk!·What have I done?)} 18:37, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

I'm willing to concede my position on Grunfeld. I finally found a Historiographical study of Tibetan/Chinese modern propaganda, and Grunfeld is listed as one of the main offenders. I'm not exactly sure how to include this without making it seem like we're singling out Grunfeld. Any ideas? Icetitan17 (talk) 20:06, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

Powers 2004, pp. 8-12 discusses Grunfeld's strengths and weaknesses, who supports his work or objects to it and why. Throughout the rest of the book, Powers calls out specific fallacies in Grunfeld's work. This is briefly summarized in Serfdom in Tibet controversy. Basically, he's a Sinologist who has accepted the Chinese point of view and consistently ignores or rejects Tibetan sources, and has extended his publishing to include Tibetan topics, without having the same level of relevant expertise as a Tibetologist. I would qualify any Grunfeld citations in a Tibet-related topic with something like "according to Sinologist Tom Grunfeld..." He is significant as a western scholar who supports, pretty much without reservation, the Chinese point of view. Bertport (talk) 21:03, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

Sounds like the best solution to me. Icetitan17 (talk) 02:20, 13 August 2008 (UTC)

Forced sterilization and other abuses

• There was a 2002 UN report on the forced sterilization, forced abortions and monitoring of menstrual cycles of ethnic Tibetans, despite China's claims that the One Child policy doesn't apply in Tibet.

• Business cannot legally be conducted in Tibetan, putting ethnic Tibetans at a disadvantage.

• Flooding of homes for hydro electricity without warning citizens.

• Security officers interrogate monks regularly, and arrest anyone found with writing of the dalai lama.

• Citizens are be given 3 years of imprisonment for having a "Free Tibet" booklet.

These are some of the things that are well documented and aren't currently mentioned in the article under the human rights abuses.

Channel 4 interviews of Tibetans on these issues: Undercover in Tibet

These issues are still not mentioned in the article. Does anyone have some other good sources? Of course it is difficult when the Tibetan people are literally risking their lives by talking about the issues. —Pengo 23:55, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

It's very easy to document that these claims are made by pro-Tibet groups. Due to the nature of the press in PRC territories though, it's difficult to get sources about human rights violations that would be considered reliable by all parties here. Phayul is one such news site; I know at least one other English-language Tibetan newspaper, but its name has slipped my mind. The United Nations has published several other reports on the Tibet situation, as has the US Department of State. Amnesty International, and Human Rights Watch all publish reports, as do various Tibet independence organizations, but, again, these sources will be vigorously disputed.

With respect to reproductive issues, I was unable to find the UN report you mentioned with a preliminary search; if you could give any more details it might be easier to find. Gimme danger (talk) 00:57, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

Since it is supposed to be 'undercover', it is impossible to verify whether the claims are true or otherwise. And given all the problems with the honesty of UK made television programmes (both BBC and independents) recently, it will be below Wiki standards to include in article. 81.155.102.52 (talk) 01:02, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

Clearly we can do better than a television program, given the amount of literature that's been written on human rights in Tibet. Each of the claims Pengo mentions have been documented elsewhere.Gimme danger (talk) 01:06, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

Further Reading

Could the folks who are able to edit Further Reading please decide whether Tibet and the United States of America: An Annotated Chronology of Relations Since 1900 is appropriate as a new link under that section. Though my guide was originally supported in the early 1990s as an educational effort at lobbying Congress on MFN status for China, I have since created this web edition for the public at large. Thank you. Krherold (talk) 17:58, 15 August 2008 (UTC)

Ecology

I'd like to see a section on the ecology of the region - biodiversity, climate (monsoon) and so on... but I know next to nothing about them. However, Tibet keeps cropping up in stuff I read about environmental issues and on TV programs about monsoons and so on. I'd like to understand why. So I'm hoping there's someone who could start such a section? Dakinijones (talk) 11:54, 16 August 2008 (UTC)

spelling mistake

under the section independence proclaimed privileges is spelt wrong