Talk:Joaquin Phoenix

Joaquin's Puerto Rican Nationality

People born in Puerto Rico automatically have dual nationality: Puerto Rican and American. Puerto Rico follows the Jus soli law (the right of the soil or the land) meaning that one’s nationality is determined by the place of one's birth.

Therefore, Joaquin is Puerto Rican and American due to the fact that he was born in San Juan, Puerto Rico.

History of Puerto Rican Nationality

On October 25, 2006, the Puerto Rican State Department declared the existence of the Puerto Rican nationality (see: Juan Mari Bras). Puerto Rican nationality was recognized in 1898 after Spain ceded the island to the United States as a result of the Spanish-American War. In 1917, the United States granted Puerto Ricans U.S. citizenship without the requirement that the islanders renounce their PR citizenship. Since then, everyone born in Puerto Rico are both Puerto Ricans and U.S. citizens. There is no need to renounce since Puerto Ricans do not need a passport to go to the mainland and have the same rights and can participate in every activity as U.S. citizens.

There is a common misconception that all Puerto Ricans are of Hispanic background. The confusion stems from people automatically associating the term 'Puerto Rican' (nationality) with the term 'Hispanic' (ethnicity). Even though the primary ethnicity in Puerto Rico is Hispanic, there are numerous other ethnic groups which make up the Puerto Rican nationality. There are many Puerto Ricans of African, Corsican, French, Irish, German, Chinese, Dutch and Lebanese descent, among others.

Laws Concerning Citizenship/Nationality

The modern world is divided up into nations with each nation, at least nominally, exercising control over its own territory and the people who reside within that territory. Among modern nations, citizenship at birth is conveyed in one of two ways; either though Jus soli (the right of the soil or the land) meaning that one’s nationality is determined by the place of one's birth; or through jus sanguinis (the right of blood) where nationality is determined by the nationality of one's descent (parents). Birthright citizenship is the term used for Jus soli as it is applied under US law.

Information mainly provided by: Tony the Marine

Joaquin's Ancestry

Information regarding Joaquin's ancestry can be found here: Arlyn Phoenix

Shoulder and Neck Problems

Many people have noticed the misalignment of Joaquin's left shoulder. However, we cannot state for certain the cause of this; Joaquin has never commented publicly on any problems with his physique, except stating that he's had a "bad neck since [he] was very young" on the Tonight Show with Jay Leno.

Trivia Section

Is the "Trivia" section really necessary? Is it considered encyclopedic? Where are the cited references to these trivia alegations? If the alegations in the trivia section are verifiable facts, shouldn't they be worked into the article itself? Tony the Marine 14:19, 22 February 2007 (UTC)

• Your instincts to delete the trivia section and merge information into the main article, where possible, are right on. Check out the official WP trivia guidelines. For additional guidance, see the essay on trivia and the policy statement "WP is not an indiscriminate collection of information". Be bold and edit away!--Vbd | (talk) 19:32, 22 February 2007 (UTC)

River's Father

There has long been speculation that Joaquin's brother River has a different father than the rest of the Phoenix children. The speculation arises from the differences in physical appearance between the two, as well as his parents' involvement in the Children of God cult where sex was encouraged between members, married or not. However, the Phoenix family has never acknowledged that claim. Officially, River, Rain, Joaquin, Liberty, and Summer are the children of John and Arlyn Phoenix.

Joaquin no longer speaks Spanish

Even though Joaquin spoke Spanish when he was younger, in this interview which was conducted by Goma Espuma in 2006, Joaquin claims he no longer speaks Spanish:

(audio) http://www.savefile.com/files/725674

Excerpt:

A: Naciste en Puerto Rico? (You were born in Puerto Rico?)

J: aha

A: y no te acuerdas nada de espanol? (You don't remember anything in Spanish?)

J: no. Bueno no. (no. Well, no)

A: Poquito? (A little bit?)

J: si poquito (Yes, a little bit)

A: Cuando escuchas espanol entiendes? (When you hear Spanish, do you understand?)

J: Poco pero ustedes hablan muy rapido. (A little bit, but you speak too fast)

I sometimes have trouble understanding Spanish speakers from Spain too, and this is where this certain interview took place. Joaquin grew up in Latin America and lived in Mexico for a while. Spanish in Mexico is ,I think, easier to understand. And if you listen to Joaquin's interview he most certainly has a more "modern" Spanish accent. His father lives in Costa Rica. If Joaq visits him he probably sometimes speaks Spanish. Besides visits to his father I don't think Spanish is in his daily life. 75.170.101.163 (talk) 19:20, 14 May 2008 (UTC)

GA drive?

I just finished reviewing the article for the first time in some time and it has really improved. Mimi C has added references to the majority of the text and its prose is clean, so it's quite close to what is expected of a Good Article Candidate. The issues that might need some attention are the lead, which requires an expansion to make it at least two paragraphs long (WP:LEAD), the reference format which is something really easy to fix, the external links in the text should be turned into references and there is a {{Fact}} tag left but that is probably easy to source, but besides those points this is pretty close to GA quality. - Caribbean~H.Q. 23:58, 21 August 2007 (UTC)

Although I agree that it has improved, I am concerned by the things that you have mentioned, Caribbean, as well as the choppy prose and the use of several fansites as references. It should not be difficult to find more interviews and other reliable, secondary sources to verify the information.

I also stepped in and fixed a couple technical issues, and added the fact that he is American to the lead; as Tony the Marine pointed out above, he has dual citizenship, and therefore it's misleading to only refer to him as a Puerto Rican in the lead. María (críticame) 22:13, 26 August 2007 (UTC)

The issue here would be that referering to him as "Puerto Rican-American" or "Puerto Rican born American" would be nonsense since all Puerto Ricans are American. - Caribbean~H.Q. 22:16, 26 August 2007 (UTC)

If it were an individual who was born in PR and spent a majority, if not all, of their life there, I wouldn't think twice about having just "Puerto Rican," but because Phoenix only lived there until he was two, I think it's necessary to point out his American roots and upbringing (his parents are American, he was raised in America, etc), if that makes sense. If someone else has a better idea of how to have it, that would be great, but I think it's inaccurate to just say Puerto Rican. María (críticame) 22:22, 26 August 2007 (UTC)

Well I once proposed this solution how about it? - Caribbean~H.Q. 22:27, 26 August 2007 (UTC)

Ethnicity (ie, Jewish, African American) does not belong in the lead as per MOS guidelines, and it is explained that his parents are American. Could we just ditch the American in the lead, but keep Puerto Rican-born, so people do not assume from the lead that he is of Puerto Rican ethnicity? María (críticame) 22:33, 26 August 2007 (UTC)

Puerto Rican is a nationality not an ethnicity. - Caribbean~H.Q. 22:35, 26 August 2007 (UTC)

Okay. I was referring to "Anglo-American," which is an ethnicity. María (críticame) 22:38, 26 August 2007 (UTC)

I was refering to the last part of that sentence: so people do not assume from the lead that he is of Puerto Rican ethnicity? - Caribbean~H.Q. 22:42, 26 August 2007 (UTC)

Heritage, then. Back to the topic at hand? Puerto Rican-born? María (críticame) 22:47, 26 August 2007 (UTC)

Born to American parents? - Caribbean~H.Q. 22:53, 26 August 2007 (UTC)

That may work, since it will sum up what's already stated in the article. Perhaps we should wait until more people weigh in first, though. María (críticame) 23:02, 26 August 2007 (UTC)

Again, I still think "Puerto Rican-American" would clarify it. It is an accepted term by Wikipedia standards and there is a list of "Puerto Rican-American Actors" on Wikipedia. It's not repeating that he is "American-American": It simply states what type of American he is, similar to Asian-American, African-American etc... etc except it's by birth place, not ethnicity. We should put the term American in the first paragraph to end this dispute.--Mimi C. 16:27, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

I agree with you, Mimi C., but I'm sensitive to resistance from others who may think it's redundant and/or unnecessary. I think it's very important to clarify that he is not Hispanic (what I was attempting to say yesterday), however, so any way we can emphasize this would be a plus. María (críticame) 16:51, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

I agree Maria about the sensitivity issue. Though I think it's fair to use the term "Puerto Rican-American" - which is deemed accurate and legally accepted - regardless of a person's point of view on it (whether they like it or dislike it). I originally posted the "Puerto Rican" term with a star next to it (though it has since been deleted), linking it to the Discussion Page's topic - "Joaquin's Puerto Rican Nationality" - to clear up any confusion about him being Hispanic, and also to stop the constant editing of his nationality. I also inserted a hidden comment in his bio next to his nationality. I don't mind leaving his nationality simply as "Puerto Rican" however, I feel that the constant editing will continue until we put in the term "American" in the first paragraph. Since he has dual nationality - it is not incorrect to use both. I am not in favor of putting in that he is of "Anglo-American heritage" - I feel that it's skirting around the issue - He is American, plain and simple --Mimi C. 17:21, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

• I personally like the original idea which MimiC had. By that I mean post the "Puerto Rican" term with a star next to it linking it to the Discussion Page's topic - "Joaquin's Puerto Rican Nationality". Since a clear definition is provided in the link. If I were MimiC, I would add it again and consider its removal as an act of vandalism. The problem with "Puerto Rican-American" would be that it could be seen by others as a reference to an etnicity, such as African-American, Asian-American and so on. It could also be stated that he is a "Non-Hispanic Puerto Rican", but I would go with MimiC's original idea. After all Wikipedia is not about what we like, but what is. Tony the Marine 18:06, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

(outdent) I agree completely, Mimi C. On a side note, and a nod to Tony, I deleted the asterisk with the link to the discussion page because of verifiability and MOS issues; Wikipedia articles and discussions shouldn't be used as refs, although I now understand the reasoning behind it. We should have a (preferably published) reliable source, which, unfortunately, Wikipedia is not. I don't suppose there are articles/interviews in which Phoenix is referred to as either American, Puerto Rican or Puerto Rican-American? That would be a worthwhile contribution to however it ends up worded in the article and would help constant editing changes to the lead. María (críticame) 18:14, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

• Thank you Tony. Maria, for the time being, could we simply put back the asterix until we find a more reliable reference to use, in order to temporarily stop the constant editing of his nationality?

By the way, to add to the confusion (lol), since his father is of Spanish heritage, doesn't that make Joaquin Hispanic? "since at least the mid-17th Century, the term Hispanic has generally been used to refer to Spain, its people and its culture." - Hispanic --Mimi C. 18:40, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

• I would agree with the asterix until a clear definition can be established. If his father was of Hispanic hertiage, it may mean that the Phoenix's can be considered Hispanic. Here is the official definition of the term "Hispanic" in accordance to the U.S. Government: Terminology

• Hispanic American is an ethnic term employed to categorize any citizen or resident of the United States, of any racial background, of any country, and of any religion, who has at least one ancestor from the people of Spain or is of non-Hispanic origin, but has an ancestor from Mexico, Puerto Rico, Cuba, Central or South America, or some other Hispanic origin. The three largest Hispanic groups in the United States are the Mexican-Americans, Puerto Ricans and Cubans. . Tony the Marine 18:57, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

- So, according to the definition Tony provided, Joaquin is Hispanic. So "Puerto Rican-American" ("ethnicity"-wise) or simply "Puerto-Rican" is acceptable in his bio.--Mimi C. 19:09, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

Is there a reliable citation for Phoenix's father (and therefore his children) is of Spanish descent? The ref listed in the article is from a River Phoenix fansite (which really needs to be replaced). I hate to sound like a stick in the mud, but I'm also genuinely interested if this is true. María (críticame) 19:17, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

• María is right. Before we can assume that his father was of Hispanic heritage, we must find a reliable source. When I wrote Hispanic Americans in World War II I added a section which contained the definition of Hispanic. Now, if a source can not be provided in regard to his father, I can go and add sources to the Discussion Page's topic - "Joaquin's Puerto Rican Nationality" and then we could use the asterisk idea. Tony the Marine 19:23, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

• I agree about the fansites - I will try and find more reliable sources....--Mimi C. 22:32, 27 August 2007 (UTC)
  • I was curious about this too - if Phoenix's father really has Hispanic heritage. The sites I've seen are of the IMDB type - without a credited author or good fact-checking process (i.e. don't pass WP:RS). I know that Summer Phoenix went over the other stuff in this article in a couple of interviews - [1] - mother's family Jewish from Russia/Hungary, father Catholic, but I don't know if Spanish/Irish was mentioned anywhere reliable. Mad Jack 19:59, 31 August 2007 (UTC)

Singing Career

Joaq is working on an albulm now. He won an Oscar for his work on the "Walk the Line Soundtrack" but I wish he would just stick to acting. Anyway I added it on his page. 75.170.101.163 (talk) 19:14, 14 May 2008 (UTC)

• You id a good job. The important thing is that you added and cited a source. If only others would follow your example. Tony the Marine (talk) 19:19, 14 May 2008 (UTC)

He announced his acting retirement today. I added it. Lhw1 (talk) 23:01, 28 October 2008 (UTC)

Nationality

I thought I should clarify my last edit. We don't give the nationality/citizenship of someone born in California as "Californian", but as "American"; i.e., the United States is the country of which they're nationals or citizens, not California (though they are indeed Californian). Same with Puerto Rico. However, as Puerto Rico is unlike California and the other US states, so that it does have its own nationality, apart and co-existent with that of the US, it follows then that one cannot bundle Puerto Rican nationality along with American nationality and still claim that Puerto Rico is unlike the other states, whose nationality/citizenship is subsumed in that of the US. SamEV (talk) 01:36, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

Does JP consider himself Puerto Rican? He was born there, but that doesn't mean much beyond that. If a discussion about the political and legal ramifications of US / PR relationship wants to be captured, create a page for it. I suggest changing this bio to indicate he was born in PR and grew up in several countries in Latin America and several US states. Anonymous —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.110.74.35 (talk) 16:11, 26 May 2008 (UTC)

Without Remorse

Rumors are that he has signed on the play John Clark/Kelly in the upcoming Without Remorse movie. Anyone hear anything? --Estrill5766 (talk) 14:39, 14 November 2008 (UTC)