Talk:Bert Trautmann

Testimonial

In 1964 he finished his career with a testimonial in front of a crowd of 60,000 people, not bad for a German whom no one had originally wanted. At this testimonial Bobby Charlton, the captain of the English national team, called him one of the greatest goalkeepers ever.

I'm changing this to Bobby Moore, as I presume this is who was meant - in 1964 Jimmy Armfield of Blackpool FC captained England against Scotland on 11th April, Ron Flowers of Wolverhampton Wanderers captained England against the USA on 27th May, Wales on 18th November, and the Netherlands on 9th December. All other England matches that year were captained by Bobby Moore (v Uruguay, 6th May; Portugal, 17th May; Republic of Ireland, 24th May; Brazil, 30th May; Portugal, 4th June; Argentina, 6th June; Northern Ireland, 3rd October; and Belgium, 21st October). (England Football Online) -- Arwel 15:24, 28 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Charlton or Moore? It was Charlton who said, "Trautmann was one of the greatest goalkeepers ever."

Bobby Charlton was actually playing for the combined City and United team. Tom Finney, Stanley Matthews and Jimmy Armfield were amongst those playing for the England eleven.

(User: Trevor Roberts, 25th October, 2005)

Factual problem

There was no Football League Fourth Division until 1958 so how could he have played in that division post-war? Cutler 12:28, Jan 14, 2005 (UTC)

Dunno. Obviously someone couldn't conceive of a lower standard of football! According to the timeline] at St Helens Town's unofficial website, the club was reformed in 1946 and played in the Liverpool County Combination from 1946 until it was promoted into the Lancashire Combination Division 2 in 1949. I've changed the article appropriately. -- Arwel 17:09, 14 Jan 2005 (UTC)

POW Camp

There is evidence to suggest that Trautmann spent some time in the Northumberland village of Wylam as a POW prior to being moved to the Manchester area. It is also suggested that Trautmann played for local teams whilst located in Wylam. See (Brooks P.R: 1998) "Wylam Past - A Pictorial History of a Northumberland Village" p.45.

Anyone know any more about this?

Changed line

I changed this line "quite a change from the crowd that initially didn't want a Nazi." to "quite a change from the crowd that initially didn't want a German." as I haven't seen anywhere that he was a nazi. -- User:Drogo 22:08, 3 Aug 2006 (UTC

GA Review

This review is transcluded from Talk:Bert Trautmann/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

I think this is a really nice article, and I enjoyed reading it. I do have a few comments though:

• Youth in Germany seems a little bit short. Is nothing else known about it? Did he have any brothers or sisters for instance?

• We're told in the lead that he refused the offer of repratiation in 1948, but later, in Early football career, we're told it was in 1947.

• "The couple had three children, all sons, though his firstborn son who was killed in a car accident a few months after the FA Cup Final in 1956, aged five." This needs to be rewritten.

• "One of Trautmann's weaknesses was acceptance of criticism ..." Reads a bit awkwardly, I think, and leaves the door open to asking the question "What were his other weaknesses?" What about something like "Trautmann found it difficult to accept criticism ..."?

• "The printed sources – especially the ones being repeatedly cited – should be separated from the notes to make finding them easier, and cited including the author's surname. I've made the changes to Rowlands' Trautmann: The Biography to show what I mean.

• Note#37 is broken.

• A picture or two would be nice to have, if possible.

• "Though recognised as one of the leading goalkeepers of his era, he never played international football ... Trautmann's only experience of international football came in 1960 ...." Presumably what's meant is that Trautmann never played football for his country?

That's about it, I think. I'm putting this article on hold to allow time for these relatively minor issues to be dealt with. Nice job. --Malleus Fatuorum (talk) 20:10, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

Note: a copy of the article from reference 37 can be found at http://www.herefordtimes.com/search/848963.The_day_Edgar_St_hailed_brave_Bert_/. GaryColemanFan (talk) 22:04, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

I've dealt with (or attempted to deal with) all the above points, more specific responses to three of them:

• The chronology of the repatriation offer is not totally clear. The repatriation process started in 1947, but did not complete until 1948. I've reworded it so that the repatriation offer itself is not dated.
• I've added a little more about his youth. Not mentioning the Hindenburg certificate was something of an oversight, so I'm glad I've looked over the sources for that period again. Rowlands' biography is the only source to talk about his youth in any real detail.
• The lack of a free-use image of Trautmann was a major factor in the decision to submit the article for GA instead of FA. I have an image in mind which would qualify as fair use, but I currently lack access to a scanner. I have added two images of tangential relevance. Oldelpaso (talk) 13:01, 8 June 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for dealing with all of those issues. I've got no hesitation at all in listing this article as a GA now, as I believe it more than meets the GA criteria, and is in fact a plausible FA candidate. --Malleus Fatuorum (talk) 20:00, 8 June 2008 (UTC)

Thank you for your copyediting. I may take the article to FAC in future, once a couple more images are sorted out. A recent visit to the National Football Museum revealed that the neck brace worn by Trautmann after his injury is normally on display, but is on loan to Vienna for the duration of Euro 2008. I intend to make a second visit to get a photo of it, by which time I hope to have sorted a fair use picture of the 1956 cup final too. Oldelpaso (talk) 21:07, 8 June 2008 (UTC)

Good luck with that. When you take this article to FA I'll certainly be onside to help in any way I can. Even though I am a Man U supporter, one of only three who actually live in Greater Manchester apparently. :-) --Malleus Fatuorum (talk) 21:22, 8 June 2008 (UTC)

Hello... What a great READ this article is! I don't give more than a Hoot about 'Football' Yet this whole story held me from start to finish... Should be a movie or something. Kudo's to all who contributed to it. Why Wikipedia is on my Bookmark list! Sincerely, 71.6.81.62 (talk) 00:50, 22 October 2009 (UTC)--MBD--71.6.81.62 (talk) 00:50, 22 October 2009 (UTC)

Anachronism

Bert Trautmann was never "red carded" as red and yellow cards did not come into use until the 1970 World Cup (See Penalty card). Even if one argues that this is a metaphor for being sent off, it introduces a sense of accidental anachronism. I have changed it to "being sent off."