Talk:Romania

Template:Maintained

Location classification

While I realise that this is a contentious subject, I believe we should change Romania's geographical location from the NATO-sourced 'South-East Central Europe' to just 'South-Eastern Europe' to bring it into line with these classifications in the rest of Wikipedia. The UN classifies Romania as Eastern (though they don't have the South-Eastern category) and the majority of other classifications call Romania South-Eastern. If one clicks on the wiki link to Central Europe from this page, one sees that Romania is not one of the de facto Central European states and is listed as a state to which the label is sometimes applied. Romania appears on the South-Eastern Europe page and the Eastern Europe page. 145.116.237.195 (talk) 09:17, 13 March 2009 (UTC)

actually the geographical location of romania is somewhat of a problem. the western part of romania is geographically part of central europe. the southern part of romania is geographically part of the balkan peninsula while the eastern part of romania is geographically part of eastern europe. from my point of view "south-eastern-central" classification is the most accurate one, geographically speaking. Adijarca (talk) 14:58, 31 March 2009 (UTC)

That sounds like WP:OR we should use the most common classification found in reliable sources. Period. man with one red shoe 17:22, 31 March 2009 (UTC)

it is not original research, it is 5th grade geography. if you want reliable sources: every serious book regarding the geological history of romania will say the same thing i said.Adijarca (talk) 12:52, 1 April 2009 (UTC)

Parliamentary not semi-poresidential

The page about semi-presidential regimes says "prime minister and a president are both active participants in the day-to-day administration of the state". This is not the case with Romania, where, according to its Constitution, the president doesn't have any administrative rights. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.186.180.201 (talk) 22:11, 8 February 2009 (UTC)

wrong. in a parliamentary republic the parliament and the prime minister are elected. and the parliament elects the president. in romania's case the president is elected and he appoints the prime minister not the parliament. here is what the semi-presidential system article says: "It differs from a parliamentary republic in that it has a popularly elected Head of State who is more than a purely ceremonial figurehead. It differs from the presidential system in that the cabinet, although named by the president, is responsible to the legislature, which may force the cabinet to resign through a motion of no confidence." both these conditions are also encountered in the romanian system. the romanian president does participate in the day-to-day running of country. he is the supreme commander of the military, he appoints the heads of the national agencies and most importantly he is promulgates laws enacted by the parliament and endorses new ministers. a law cannot be adopted unless it promulgated by the president. in a parliamentary system the presidency is only a ceremonial position, it has no power and no obligations. Adijarca (talk) 14:23, 12 February 2009 (UTC)

You said that "in a parliamentary republic the parliament and the prime minister are elected. and the parliament elects the president". Not really, have a look here: Parliamentary republic. Some states elect their presidents directly and in others the president is elected by the Parliament. The same confusion persists in Romania: a parliamentary republic is perceived to be equal to the president being elected by the Parliament, which is false (if not deliberately misleading). A parliamentary republic is characterized by a head of state who is a ceremonial figurehead (who can be also the commander-in-chief of the armed forces, see for example President of Austria or President of Ireland), with all the executive powers concentrated in the hands of the prime-minister. Period. How the president is elected is irrelevant. Mentatus (talk) 15:39, 12 February 2009 (UTC)

yes mentatus you are right. however this does not change the fact that the romanian president is not just a figurehead, and as such romania is not a parliamentary system. Adijarca (talk) 15:52, 12 February 2009 (UTC)

Fully agree, Romania is *NOT* a parliamentary republic and our "player-president" not a figurehead either. Mentatus (talk) 16:12, 12 February 2009 (UTC)

Dated: Rumania, Roumania

What is the evidence that Rumania and Roumania are dated and not alternatives? --Philip Baird Shearer (talk) 16:52, 24 June 2008 (UTC)

There was a long discussion about this issue, including a vote and this was the result of that discussion. I think that if you look in the last those forms are prevalent, however now those are clearly a minority and disappearing fast -- that's why "dated". Another proposal was "less used" or "uncommon". However, in English official documents the form Romania is the one that's used nowadays. -- AdrianTM (talk) 19:22, 27 June 2008 (UTC)

I prefer removing Rumania. Pilsner Desk (talk) 14:02, 13 July 2008 (UTC)

Using Rumania or Roumania internationally helps distinquish from the the Romani ethnic group who are known throughout Europe & the Americas

The Romanian word Romani which uses Romanian grammar often gets confused with the English word Romani which is used for an etnic group in Europe (and spread to the Americas and Australasia) who originate from India.

The Romani are a people originating from India and their word Romani also originates from India - from the word "Raman". In the language a Rom (from the Sanskrit word Raman meaning the same) means Husband who is honourable and respected. Someone of the ethnic group who is not a respectable married man is called a Chavo / chavoro. This is from the Sanskrit word Sava meaning someone of likeness / kinsman and also shows connection to Rajastani Choro = son & chav = like. A wife is a Romni and a daughter is a chai. Within the culture it is tradition to be a Rai (gentleman) but unfortunetely due to hundreds of years of persectution and racism many Roms are down trodden and poor or have turned to crime and give the majority a bad name. In the UK and North America manty Roms are very rich and get alot of respect within the communities which they live in. There are other Indian words such as Lali meaning 'red' also have had the 'a' changed to an 'o' = loli as in where the English word lollipop comes from - It is an English word picked up from Romani living in England hundreds of years ago. Unfortunetely the corrupted word Romani (from Ramani) is spelt exactly the same as the Romanian word Romani, which is creating confusion for many Romanians who are coming into the English speaking world.

Communism period

Hello. I have a suggestion regarding the part of the article concerning the communist period. I think that at the start of the second paragraph it should be said:

"After the negotiated retreat of Soviet troops in 1958, and the withdrawal of Soviet advisers until late 1964, The Socialist Republic of Romania was established in 1965. Under the leadership of Nicolae Ceauşescu, who became head of the Romanian Communist Party in July 1965, Romania started to pursue independent policies."

It`s more precise, altought it occupies more space. (Daniel1918 (talk) 16:54, 15 August 2008 (UTC))

Can someone please do something about the Communist section? It's clearly written out of emotion, and anti-communism. If your priority is accuracy, you'll change it. 208.101.153.234 (talk) 11:24, 31 March 2009 (UTC)

Crime sentencing

Romania leads the world with the longest average prison sentence served, at 37,488 years. Source: http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_sen_len-crime-sentence-length

by comparison this is more than double the runner up: Burma: 16,616 years served, and 37,488 times the lowest country on the list, Canada.

How can be anybody be convicted for 37488 years? I bet those are days (or hours?), and even if they are days this is clearly wrong, I highly doubt the average sentence in Romania is over 100 years. I'm pretty much sure that's a mistake. -- man with one red shoe (talk) 20:41, 24 August 2008 (UTC)

Thats what it says at http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_sen_len-crime-sentence-length which is a pretty reliable source.

Its not days or hours or else Canada would have an average sentence length of 1 hour or day. Further down the staff editor says that Columbia has an average sentence length of 137 years, which is reflected in the chart. This is not such a surprising statistic. Finland has an average of 2,762 years, which is basically the same as Romania since nobody lives that long. The average for the 46 countries in the list is years 1,673.2 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 137.99.238.19 (talk) 21:54, 26 August 2008 (UTC)

To me it looks like nonsense. I haven't heard of 37488 years sentences, it's probably a statistical abnormality, probably accounting in a strange way for life sentences. -- man with one red shoe (talk) 14:04, 8 September 2008 (UTC)

Since 37,488 years is the average, your question should be who is giving out 100,000 year sentences? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.37.205.190 (talk) 03:49, 11 September 2008 (UTC)

to do

• find references for the 25, 22, 17, 11 0 'citation needed' tags that are throught the article (in Arts and Foreign relations)
• Check external links Nergaal (talk) 10:31, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

Request for Article Expansion

• Greater Romania - Although it is the designated section of history for Romania covering the span between WWI and WWII, it has absolutely no coverage of events between 1920 and 1940, other than a reference to its borders staying the same during this period. As this is also the referential case for the main article on Romania itself, as it now stands Wikipedia has no historical coverage of Romania in any general article from 1920 to 1940. This article requires content - even if perfunctory - for this period... Examples would include who was president, dictator, was it a democracy, what were some political, economic or social events during this period, etc.? Conversely, this article would also need an extension into the sub article on Greater Romania - at least a summary. Stevenmitchell (talk) 02:07, 12 September 2008 (UTC)

  While all these issues would be interesting to be addressed in History of Romania and Greater Romania articles I think that Romania article is already overloaded with history (personal opinion, take is as that). -- AdrianTM (talk) 02:27, 12 September 2008 (UTC)

  I agree with those articles being not detailed enough, but this page as of now contains enough information already. In the near future I plan to chop down some of the things from the article, but probably not from the GR part. Nergaal (talk) 02:36, 12 September 2008 (UTC)

article visits

#471 with 208k! Nergaal (talk) 04:00, 12 September 2008 (UTC)

Foreign relations

Xasha is trying to remove any causality between the Moldovan government's pro-Russian attitude and Moldova's lack of interest in unification with Romania in section Foreign relations (see here, here, here, here, and here). The phrase in dispute is "A movement for unification of Romania and Moldova appreared in the early 1990s after both countries achieved emancipation from communist rule, quickly faded away with the new Moldovan government that adhered to CIS" (formerly worded as "with the new pro-Russian Moldovan government"), which Xasha would prefer to read "with the new Moldovan government". He's motivating his changes with WP:SYNTH, whereas the causality between the government's orientation and Moldova's lack of further interest in unification with Romania is presumably being artificially construed by Wikipedia editors, and as such would amount to original research.

Even though it's difficult for me to refrain from stating that the causality is common knowledge for anyone even remotely familiar with the topic (it's like challenging the claim that Imperial powers wanted to expand their colonies for profit), let's stick with the source shown in the article (for your convenience, it's here). The source states:

• [From] 1991 until 1994 the relations between Romania and the Republic of Moldova went all the way from excitement and enthusiasm to a situation of tension and public accusations with adverse effects on both states. The causes of this situation include [...] certain political decisions of the authorities in Chişinău which affected the situation of the Romanian population in [Moldova]. There is no doubt that some pressure from outside the two states is partly to blame for the change in the Chişinău Government's opinions and in the way they are expressed.
• However strong the desire for it, the Union cannot be accomplished without Moldova's consent, without a strong economic foundation, without an adequate international (and regional) context. One should not forget either Moldova's very diverse ethnic map - including a large number of Russian-speakers - or the fact that Russian troops are stationed in Moldova, or else the Republic's membership in the CIS.

Please bear in mind that Xasha is not contesting the accuracy of the statements in themselves (that the government was pro-Russian or that it was indeed the one to adhere to CIS), he's only contesting the causality between its being pro-Russian/adhering to CIS on one hand and the way RO-MO relationships progressed on the other hand -- instead, he's claiming the causality is being falsely construed by Wikipedia editors, with the source never acknowledging it. In my opinion the source does link the two together in more than one way in the fragments above, but I would appreciate other opinions. --Gutza ^{T T+} 09:06, 17 September 2008 (UTC)

As you can see from the quotes above, words are cherry picked from the source to reach the adequate POV. The source mentions reasons for the lack of accomplishment of the "union" (and not for fading of a movement for "unification") the following: minorities, Russian troops and CIS membership. Since the minorities and the Russian troops never left Moldova, Gutza has to ignore them, and concentrate only on the last "argument", and then link it to an ambiguous phrase somewhere above to obtain the interpretation he desires. This is clearly an original synthesis, which is against Wikipedia policies. For the "common knowledge" claim, I have to remind Gutza that in a referendum proclaimed by a pro-Romanian president, the overwhelming majority of the Moldovan citizens decided they wanted to live in an independent Moldova, so trying to blaim Russia for the lack of "unification" is tendentious. (I know the Romanian media tends to forget that referendum and supports a certain interpretation of events, but we're not here to sell a newspaper by stimulating the sensibilities of the audience, we're here to build a neutral encyclopedia) Xasha (talk) 11:33, 17 September 2008 (UTC)

The referendum, of course, did not express hostility to joining Romania, but to being re-absorbed by Russia. At a time when Russia was seriously threatening Moldova's independence, of course almost everyone voted to preserve an "independent and unitary state" and maintain territorial integrity. Biruitorul ^Talk 16:01, 17 September 2008 (UTC)

No, no... the referendum was actually for independece from Burkina Faso, obviously. You have more of these ludicruos claims?Xasha (talk) 17:08, 17 September 2008 (UTC)

Very funny, but that's how it was - Russia (then as now occupying de jure Moldovan territory) was the real threat, not Romania. Even Charles King calls the results of that confusing referendum "highly suspect". Many people didn't know what they were voting on, but for those who did, Russia was more on their minds than Romania. Biruitorul ^Talk 18:24, 17 September 2008 (UTC)

Hey man, just search in GBooks for "1994 referendum moldova romania" and you'll see against whom/what was the referendum directed. As for Russians, they were statitioned in Transnistria and never intervened in Moldova proper.Xasha (talk) 18:36, 17 September 2008 (UTC)

You have asked for hand-picked extracts, otherwise simply pointing you to the source should have sufficed, so please don't accuse me of doing precisely what you asked me to do. You fail to notice the progression "from excitement and enthusiasm to a situation of tension and public accusations" the source is stating -- did the Russian minority increase in the meanwhile or did Moldova join CIS in the meanwhile? 'Cause something must have happened to trigger that, you know -- and the source does explain that it came from outside. --Gutza ^{T T+} 11:46, 17 September 2008 (UTC)

I urge the parties of this dispute to create a compromise draft of the 'Foreign relations' section here on the Talk page. It can't be very difficult to come up with wording that does not draw any further deductions from the words of the source. EdJohnston (talk) 12:45, 17 September 2008 (UTC)

No, I asked for a consistent paragraph to support your position, and I didn't expect you to take a word from here and a word from there and then tendentiously claim you proved your point. Sorry, but your personal deduction ("'Cause something must have happened to trigger that, you know ") is just pure OR, and not based on the source.Xasha (talk) 15:12, 17 September 2008 (UTC)

Fair enough. I think stating our goals would be a good start for reaching a compromise: I want the phrase to make historical sense. In the version Xasha is promoting, the reader can't understand why the movement for unification "faded away with the new Moldovan government". We say that it faded away, but we don't give any hints as to why. And I believe the "why" itself is the real dispute here -- so I suppose we need to find a wording that would make everybody happy. Xasha, how would you put it as to achieve both goals? (i.e. so that you'd be happy with it, but we would still explain to the reader what happened) --Gutza ^{T T+} 13:01, 17 September 2008 (UTC)

Sorry, but this article is about Romania, not about the political situation in Romania. As to "why" it faded, is simple: the nationalist People's Front lost its popular support after violence against Russophone minorities, economic disaster and especially after it started (and lost) the war in Transnistria.Xasha (talk) 15:12, 17 September 2008 (UTC)

The Popular Front did not commit violence against anyone. With economics you have a point, but Druc (the last Frontist PM) left office in May 1991, and the war starter in March 1992, so the Front cannot be held responsible for that. Biruitorul ^Talk 16:01, 17 September 2008 (UTC)

You obviously don't know what happened in Moldova in the early 90s. And the government was of People's Front (albeit under their new name FPCD) until Snegur had to accept Agrarians in the aftemath of the Transnistria war in summer 92.Xasha (talk) 17:08, 17 September 2008 (UTC)

If you wish to cite examples of the Popular Front committing violence against Russophone minorities, fine. Otherwise the claim has no validity. Foreign and defence policy was in the hands of the executive. Snegur (as President) was the executive. Snegur, an anti-Unionist, used the remaining Frontists as a scapegoat for his failure. Biruitorul ^Talk 18:24, 17 September 2008 (UTC)

This is not the place, but I will add some references to the proper article. The government is the executive by definition. Snegur was the most "unionist" president Moldova ever had since 1917, but he decided his seat is more important when it became clear that "unionism" didn't have popular suuport, that is after the Transnistria War.Xasha (talk) 18:36, 17 September 2008 (UTC)

I think the Moldovan government is not as much pro-Russian as it is anti-Romanian and we could probably find references for that. The anti-Romanian stance explains the RO-MO developments better then the pro-Russian claim. -- man with one red shoe (talk) 13:38, 17 September 2008 (UTC)

Recent Moldovan governments have indeed expressed anti-Romanian views we could use, but I'm not sure that's also the case for the period in question (early 1990s). If however we can find specific anti-Romanian declarations from that government then I would be ok with using that ("anti-Romanian" may be a bit too strong for the article -- and as a Romanian I have no ulterior motive in toning that down --, but something along those lines might work, if supported by sources). --Gutza ^{T T+} 13:45, 17 September 2008 (UTC)

For example (BTW, this supports both interpretations since it talks about "Russification policies"), this is about Spring 2002 period, what is the period that you are looking for? http://www1.law.nyu.edu/eecr/vol11num1_2/constitutionwatch/moldovia_print.html

"the Romanian government announced the creation of a group composed of representatives of the foreign, defense, and interior ministries to monitor the situation in Moldova and issued a communiqué accusing the Moldovan government of anti-Romanian rhetoric and "deliberately creating a climate of confusion and false tension in the area." Romania was then accused of meddling in Moldova's domestic affairs, a charge backed, obviously, by Russia. On February 22, the Russian Duma adopted a resolution accusing Romania of infringing on Moldova's "sovereign right to an independent linguistic policy and the safeguarding of Russian as the traditional language of interethnic communication." Romania responded angrily to the Russian statement. While the final outcome of the crisis, both in Moldova and internationally, remains unclear, it does seem certain that MCP's efforts to introduce Russification policies have further destabilized the already shaky former Soviet republic." -- man with one red shoe (talk) 14:53, 17 September 2008 (UTC)

For now I want to stay out of the debate, but I want to point out a question: how much of the anti-Romanian and the pro-Russian (or some better worded last part) are linked together? Whatever the connection is, I believe it is important for readers to clearly understand weather they are or are not linked together. Nergaal (talk) 14:57, 17 September 2008 (UTC)

As far as Moldova is concerned, everything pro-Russian is inherently anti-Romanian (politically speaking, of course -- for a broader view, read a couple of paragraphs into the source mentioned above). I suppose the opposite is also true to an extent, although I can't tell how much a decision to despise or hate Romanians automatically leads a Moldovan into the welcoming arms of Moldova's big brother. --Gutza ^{T T+} 15:33, 17 September 2008 (UTC)

That's nothing but classical Romanian nationalist Russophobia. It's like claiming that every pro-Serbian attitude in Romania is inherently anti-Hungarian. Xasha (talk) 15:48, 17 September 2008 (UTC)

Then I'd appreciate a few examples of unionist Russians (or pro-Russian politicians) in Moldova. I find it very doubtful that in a country whose territory was stolen at gun point by the Soviets from Romania you can find pro-Russians who are also pro-Romanian (or at least Romanian-neutral). Again, I'm only talking about politics -- I'm positive many unionists enjoy Dostoevski and Tchaikovsky, but that's besides the point. --Gutza ^{T T+} 16:23, 17 September 2008 (UTC)

I don't know if it has any importance, but Stalin's father was Ossetian (just for the sake of accuracy). As for Russians being so happy with their leaders that's a bit scary, I think it shows what are their values... -- man with one red shoe (talk) 14:09, 21 September 2008 (UTC)

"Unionism" is a fringe movement in Moldova today, so I couldn't name much unionist politicians (even PPCD seems to have dropped the idea of "union" in favour of EU membership, which is as union with Romania as is it with Sweden or Portugal). Sorry, but that land was not Romania's to begin for. Stealing from a thief is not too fair, but is not specially unfair either. Also, (pro-)Russians are not necessarily (pro-)Soviet. Just look at the official position of the Transnistrian separatists.Xasha (talk) 17:08, 17 September 2008 (UTC)

Please refrain from obviously untrue statements. I'm not sure what you're hoping for, but I expect you're hoping to elicit an emotional response -- calling Romania a "thief" in relationship to Bessarabia fringes trolling. As for the first point, what can I say -- q.e.d.? --Gutza ^{T T+} 17:21, 17 September 2008 (UTC)

It's perfectly true, just it isn't the traditional view in Romania's historiography. I wasn't the one to start claiming someone stole something.Xasha (talk) 17:28, 17 September 2008 (UTC)

Let's not sidetrack this discussion, ok? If you have any respect for historical truth I propose a useful exercise you can try in private: explain why the union with Romania is called union, while the previous annexation by the Russians is called annexation. Oh, and for the record I was being quite civil when I said the Russians stole the territory -- the source we've been discussing calls it "territorial rape". --Gutza ^{T T+} 17:33, 17 September 2008 (UTC)

Simple. Because there are more Romanians on Wikipedia, compared to Moldovans (some dozens vs a couple). Obviously any attempt to change those titles is futile ab initio. As for that source, you don't want to get me started with Soviet or Moldovan nationalist sources.Xasha (talk) 17:41, 17 September 2008 (UTC)

I though it was unuion because the legislative body adopted/agreed t it, and annexation because soldiers agreed to invade. you are right, they are synonyms. Nergaal (talk) 11:29, 20 September 2008 (UTC)

Neither of us wants to get the other started with nationalistic "sources" -- if you had the curiosity to actually read that document you would've been surprised at how neutral it is (it's bashing the Romanian authorities and their silly nationalistic perspective more than once). I won't even go near the other topic, we'd end up in a silly debate. --Gutza ^{T T+} 17:47, 17 September 2008 (UTC)

break

This sort of discussions have happened too many times in the past! Can people get away from their personal opinions and present references (the more the better) for the statements (i.e. not opinions)?

1. Gutza: can you bring more sources that support the idea that you are trying to insert? Even if you were interpreting the source right, it is still a single source, which might or not be relevant to the real situation.
2. Xasha, can you bring sources that disprove what Gutza believes should be inserted? Just saying that is OR is still subjective, so unless you bring sources showing the opposite, you are still POV-ing.

Nergaal (talk) 16:44, 17 September 2008 (UTC)

For the record, I'm not trying to insert anything, I'm trying to preserve the information that was there before Xasha decided to remove it (see article history). Anyway, I'll look for other sources (although that is a pretty solid, well-researched and highly regarded document, I'm not sure I'll be able to find something of the same caliber). --Gutza ^{T T+} 16:49, 17 September 2008 (UTC)

Every source has its limitations. If other sources, independent of the original source show the same thing, than the statement gains more wight. Nergaal (talk) 16:57, 17 September 2008 (UTC)

To bring source to disprove something?!? Sorry, but that is ludicruous. Should I begin to write some imaginary things in this article and then ask for source disproving my assertions? And I'm not claiming the opposite to anything, I'm just saying let's leave that part out, since the view is not supported by any source.Xasha (talk) 17:08, 17 September 2008 (UTC)

Why are you making this hard? My point here is: you believe that the text does not say that, while Gutza does. They are both subjective views (btw, I did not read the actual ref yet so don't assume I am interpreting the source) and no-one is a priori right. But if Gutza brings multiple refs that imply what is he saying while you simply discredit them all and refuse to be constructive and/or to bring references that disprove his interpretation/view of the refs, you will not receive support. Nergaal (talk) 17:44, 17 September 2008 (UTC)

The curent source doesn't support Gutza's POV and no other source has been brought. So there's nothing to discuss at the moment.Xasha (talk) 17:49, 17 September 2008 (UTC)

"The parliamentary elections of February 1994 brought about a political realignment. Shortly before falling into decline, the Agrarian Democratic Party won an electoral majority, defeating parties that favoured either unification with Romania or a close alliance with Russia. In March of that year, Moldovans voted overwhelmingly to maintain independence, and in April the parliament approved limited membership in the Commonwealth of Independent States. At the same time “Moldovanism,” an ideology of self-determination emphasizing the country’s distinctiveness from Romania, became a significant force in political and cultural life." Is that enough to support the phrase as I proposed it? (i.e. "A movement for unification of Romania and Moldova appreared in the early 1990s after both countries achieved emancipation from communist rule, quickly faded away with the new Moldovan government that adhered to CIS.") The fragment is from Britannica. --Gutza ^{T T+} 18:02, 17 September 2008 (UTC)

Britannica is not considered reliable... Nergaal (talk) 18:05, 17 September 2008 (UTC)

I fail to see how Britannica could support your POV.Xasha (talk) 18:16, 17 September 2008 (UTC)

Again, it is not relevant since it is not reliable. Nergaal (talk) 18:18, 17 September 2008 (UTC)

Xasha, if you fail to see that (irrespective of the source's merits), then maybe you're misreading my intentions. In case you haven't noticed, I didn't say the government in question ended up governing Moldova as a result of a criminal Russian coup or anything odious like that -- I'm just trying to give the reader the right impression, i.e. that there was a shift in the government's attitude regarding a possible union with Romania; I find the decision to join the CIS explanatory enough for the purpose of summarizing the whole thing. However, you never had a chance to reply to my invitation to propose a wording of your own. --Gutza ^{T T+} 18:25, 17 September 2008 (UTC)

Hey man, that paragraph says that both "unionist" and Russia-supporters were defeated in the 1994 elections, that Moldovans voted for independence and that the Parliament approved a limited membership in CIS. None of these has any relation to your interpreatation of causality. You are not supposed to join disparate facts just because you find their combination "explanatory". Xasha (talk) 18:41, 17 September 2008 (UTC)

It's called summarizing, you have all the facts in that fragment and I believe they correlate nicely. I'm not saying we should use that, but if that isn't enough then nothing will be. Personally I think it's a no-brainer that a government actively seeking CIS membership will not also pursue a unionistic policy, and I doubt you'll find any serious source spewing truisms like that one. But you still haven't come up with a concrete proposal. --Gutza ^{T T+} 18:50, 17 September 2008 (UTC)

No, it's called original synthesis and it's not allowed on Wikipedia. Britannica doesn't put state any casuality between the facts as you do. You can keep your personal thoughts for your blog, this is Wikipedia, which has WP:NOR as one of its core policies. You have my proposal in the edit history of the page (the one you have reverted so many times).Xasha (talk) 19:00, 17 September 2008 (UTC)

Anything short of copy/pasting can be called original synthesis if you don't like the result -- logical summarizing and good faith synthesis is allowed, or else the entire Wikipedia would be a collection of quotations. I have addressed the version you support here. --Gutza ^{T T+} 19:04, 17 September 2008 (UTC)

Attaching random facts to convey a certain interpretation is original synthesis under Wikipedia policy. Personal logic, especially here where there's no way to ascertain the faultlessness of this logic, fails WP:OR. So, since you brought no source to support your correlations, I have to unwillingly assume you're tendentiously disregarding Wikipedia policies, which is regrettable for an admin.Xasha (talk) 19:17, 17 September 2008 (UTC)

I believe Xasha is trying to support something on these lines. 18:20, 17 September 2008 (UTC)

The region east of the Dniester river, Transnistria, which includes a large proportion of ethnic Russians and Ukrainians, declared independence in 1990, fearing the rise of nationalism in Moldova and the country's expected reunification with Romania upon secession from the USSR. This caused a brief military conflict between Moldovan and Transnistrian secessionist forces in 1992. Russian military stationed in the region (14th Army) intervened on the Transnistrian side and remained on Moldovan territory east of the Dniester after the end of the military conflict, despite signing international obligations to withdraw, and against the will of Moldovan government.[32][33] As of 2006, approximately 1200 of the 14th army personnel remain stationed in Transnistria. Negotiations between the Transnistrian and Moldovan leaders have been going on under the mediation of the OSCE, Russia, and Ukraine; lately observers from the European Union and the USA have become involved.

huh?!? Xasha (talk) 18:45, 17 September 2008 (UTC)

Ok, how about this, I think it's neutered neutral enough: "A movement for unification of Romania and Moldova appreared in the early 1990s after both countries achieved emancipation from communist rule, but quickly faded away with the new anti-unionist Moldovan government." --Gutza ^{T T+} 19:13, 17 September 2008 (UTC)

That's reduntant. A more acceptable version would be: "faded away when the Pro-unionist forces lost political support in Moldova".Xasha (talk) 19:22, 17 September 2008 (UTC)

If that's indeed the case, I'm all for it -- but please provide some sources. I have provided sources which explain what the new government has done, and as such we can draw conclusions about it, but I haven't found any sources supporting your proposal. --Gutza ^{T T+} 19:34, 17 September 2008 (UTC)

Here: "While in the beginning reunification seemed for some time like “the natural course” of things for the Romanian speaking two thirds of the population (according to the 1989 census) of the Moldovan republic, this changed rapidly after 1994. Since then there have been parties in power whose agenda is to preserve a Moldovan republic independent of Romania." [1] I think that's decent support for "anti-unionist government", which in itself is more than reasonably neutral. --Gutza ^{T T+} 20:00, 17 September 2008 (UTC)

From the same source (which is a surprisingly fascinating read):

• "Both historiographical currents focus on two different spaces: the Romanianist focuses on the wide Romanian space, while the Moldovanist narrative looks towards Russia and the CIS space."
• "Another aspect is the description of the ‘external others’ – those countries and peoples surrounding the RM. Both narratives paint a similar picture of the ‘external others’, which could be summarized like this: surrounded by enemies and one friend. In the case of Romanianism, all surrounding peoples and powers want to prevent the unification of all Romanians in one state. The natural friend of the ethnic Romanians in the RM is Romania. The narrative of Moldovanism mirrors this by characterizing all surrounding peoples as hostile, because they want to subjugate Moldova – especially Romania. Here it is only Russia, which has been exhibiting a friendly and supportive attitude towards the Moldovans."

I think this answers a few of the questions above and positions the "two narratives" in their proper place. --Gutza ^{T T+} 20:22, 17 September 2008 (UTC)

But "anti-unionist" has a more negative connotation than "agenda to preserve a Moldovan republic independent of Romania".Xasha (talk) 21:08, 17 September 2008 (UTC)

I don't think so, but if you prefer that specific wording I'm fine with it. Deal? --Gutza ^{T T+} 21:10, 17 September 2008 (UTC)

Fine.Xasha (talk) 21:21, 17 September 2008 (UTC)

Great -- I'll make the necessary adjustments and unprotect the page (Wikipedia is not a bureaucracy). --Gutza ^{T T+} 21:24, 17 September 2008 (UTC)

Done, please review. --Gutza ^{T T+} 21:36, 17 September 2008 (UTC)

Yikes! The page was protected because of an edit war in which Gutza was one of the participants. Please request an uninvolved admin to do the unprotection. EdJohnston (talk) 21:43, 17 September 2008 (UTC)

Yes, except the edit war Gutza was involved in has ended in consensus, why would we need a third party? Again, Wikipedia is not a bureaucracy. --Gutza ^{T T+} 21:44, 17 September 2008 (UTC)

I'm sorry, EdJohnston, but this is silly, the parties involved in a war edit have agreed to a compromise, why don't you just unprotect the page? -- man with one red shoe (talk) 21:55, 17 September 2008 (UTC)

I have already done that (I'm an admin), and that's typically a big no-no, since I was involved in the edit war in the first place. But since the dispute is over I strongly feel I was in my right to operate the unprotection myself (if only as to avoid unnecessarily bothering other admins). I'm sure EdJohnston will agree after reviewing the conversation above. --Gutza ^{T T+} 21:59, 17 September 2008 (UTC)

GA Review

Given space restrictions, the review is not transcribed and can be found here: Talk:Romania/GA3 Best, epicAdam^(talk) 17:17, 18 September 2008 (UTC)

Economy

The economy section is so POV that it makes me wonder if the authors deny certain realities out of sheer patriotism or are simply unaware of them. I see no mention of how poorly the middle class is represented (the majority of the population still struggling to make a decent living, while few are outrageously rich), of the corruption and bureaucracy, the discrepancy in standard of living and purchasing power between Bucharest (and perhaps few other cities such as Cluj) and the rest of the country. Other sources seem to tell a slightly different tale (take a look at the article about the European Union): "There are substantial economical disparities across the EU. Even corrected for purchasing power, the difference between the richest and poorest regions (NUTS-2 and NUTS-3 of the Nomenclature of Territorial Units for Statistics) is about a factor of ten. On the high end Frankfurt has €71,476 PPP per capita, Paris €68,989, and Inner London €67,798, while the three poorest NUTS, all in Romania, are Vaslui County with €3,690 PPP per capita, Botoşani County with €4,115, and Giurgiu County with €4,277.[129]" 81.101.19.67 (talk) 21:32, 29 September 2008 (UTC)

Please add information that's relevant and sourced. Do it yourself, don't wait for other people... -- man with one red shoe (talk) 22:16, 29 September 2008 (UTC)

Cough, cough!... And which of the above is irrelevant and/or unsourced?81.145.166.130 (talk) 20:00, 4 March 2009 (UTC)

Cough, cough! I didn't say it's not (although I don't see any reference), but the main point of my post was "do it yourself" So, as long as info is well sourced and relevant to the article what keeps you or the previous poster from adding it? man with one red shoe 20:44, 4 March 2009 (UTC)

IMF

With regards to Romania's Per Capita PPP and Nominal for each year, Romania should have the information for Per Capita for the current year e.g. 2009. It is ridiculous how people continue to put Romania's Per Capita information from the year before. Its makes sense to do it for the same year. The year is the year it is 2009 is not 2008. It doesn't prove anything and it gives misleading information to readers.Pryde 01 (talk) 09:22, 4 December 2008 (UTC)

We need to use accurate numbers, 2009 numbers are just predictions. They shouldn't be used in any country page. man with one red shoe 14:19, 4 December 2008 (UTC)

These numbers may be right but...

These numbers may be right, but how can the numbers change without the citation changing? - Jmabel | Talk 00:04, 13 November 2008 (UTC)

legal - > legislative

The correct names for the 3 branches of government are : legislative, executive and judicial. Please replace legal with legislative. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Cloghin (talk • contribs) 00:08, 8 December 2008 (UTC)

You seem to know how to edit pages. Why not just fix it yourself? I've made this change but don't just talk about it, join the fun. Henryhartley (talk) 14:58, 8 December 2008 (UTC)

Romanian history

Hey, I just want to notice that at the part with romanian history it should be writen the international recognized version of the origins of romanians based on language evidences and historical proofs, wich is the accurate version. The other theories should not be given much importance. Otherweise people might get confused. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Smeny (talk • contribs) 16:24, 12 December 2008 (UTC)

{{editsemiprotected}} Minor Typo

Under the subsection "World Wars and Greater Romania," there is a typo within the caption for the image "Romania territory during 20th century.gif." The line in question reads: The small Hertza region, aslo purple but delimitted...."

I would fix it, but I'm only a casual editor of such minor mistakes (usually without logging in) and therefore do not have the permission to do so myself. Xataro (talk) 15:39, 12 January 2009 (UTC)

 Fixed, ty. –Capricorn42 (talk) 16:16, 12 January 2009 (UTC)

"The Constitution states that Romania is a semi-presidential democratic republic where executive functions are shared between the president and the prime minister." Where in the constitution does it state that Romania is a semi presidential republic? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.204.42.211 (talk) 20:35, 15 January 2009 (UTC)

Population

(Numaru7 (talk) 21:34, 31 January 2009 (UTC)) I noticed that the population numbers are bad. The population is, according to eurostat, 21 496 700, which means that the current value is out of date. You can find proof for the population change if u click on "50th", next to the actual population number which brings up the "list of countries by population", where the correct value is given ( and also the link to eurostat which confirms it is also there).

So... if somebody would change it, it would be nice.

External Link

Official government website for Romania is http://www.gov.ro/ Vlad003 (talk) 02:25, 12 February 2009 (UTC)

GA Review

This review is transcluded from Talk:Romania/GA4. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

GA review (see here for criteria)

1. It is reasonably well written.

   a (prose): b (MoS):

   • The MoS does not allow stray quasi-"see also"-links, such as under culture. Embed into the text, or let people click on "Culture of Romania".
   • WP:LEAD: Almost all countries have had at least one European Capital of Culture. There is no reason this should be in the lead; perhaps not even in the body. Why is the flat tax worthy of the lead, when none of the prime industries are mentioned? What does 'growth speed' mean? The lead does not cover education, sports, transportation, tourism, culture nor administrative divisions. The lead is to summarize all parts of the body, at least mention all sub-sections.
   • Currencies in the infobox need to be specified (i.e. not just $, but either USD or US$).
   • A hyphen (-) is never to be used as punctuation. Instead, use an emdash (&emdash;)
   • Please use piped links for dab-links with parenthasis.
   • For "further discussions" and the like, perhaps including the item in the {{main}} template would be favorable.
   • The sentence "Romanians were not even allowed to reside within the city walls." is POV. If the word "even" is removed, it becomes NPOV.
   • "coup d'état" should be wikilinked, either to the one in particular (that should have an article), or to the general term.
   • "The 1878-1914 period" should use an endash (&endash;), not a hyphen (-). Also Austria–Hungary uses an endash, as should Soviet–Romanian companies, Israel–Egypt and Israel–PLO peace processes. PLO should be in full length on first occurance.
   • What does "on August 14/27 1916" mean? Between 14 and 27 August? If so, use an endash, or word it out.
   • Under history, why do some of the headers go over two lines?
   • Even on first occurance, use US$ or USD, but pipe link to the currency, instead of writing out in full.
   • Half the "communism" section talks about foreign policy; the domestic impact is hardly mentioned.
   • Not all metric values are converted to imperial.
   • Again, lei should not be spelled out, but use a linked ISO code. Currency conversions are very fluxuating, particularly towards the USD, and might be considered avoided.
   • "the transport infrastructure does not meet the current needs of a market economy" is very fuzzy. Is the infrastructure congested? Is there speed or volume restrictions? If so, state it.
   • Reword sentences like "Romania comprised in 2004 22,298" so there are not two numbers after each other.
   • "The Bucharest Metro was only opened in 1979." is a terrible sentence, and indicates POV: many cities built their rapid transit systems after 1979.
   • "Romania has its unique culture, which is the product of its geography and of its distinct historical evolution" says aboslutely nothing.
   • "Nevertheless, in 2006 Brussels report..." sounds bad (grammatically); also, never refer to th EU or one of its branches as 'Brussels'.
   • Could the list of counties be converted into a table? At current, it is very difficult to read.
   • There are many external links, of which most seem redundant to this article, or to the subpages. External links should only be provided to sites that supplement the article. For reliable sources, readers should use the references (e.g. the CIA Book of Facts). The link box to other wikiprojects is not particularly helpful.
2. It is factually accurate and verifiable.

   a (references): b (citations to reliable sources): c (OR):

   • Many paragraphs or sentences lack references, in particular "Administrative divisions", "National Flag", "Arts", "Transportation", "Geography", "Present-day democracy", "Middle Ages", but also many other places.
   • There are unresolved [citation needed] tags.
   • Statements along the line of "[flat tax] ... a factor which has contributed to the growth of the private sector" are very speculative, and would need sound scientific evidence (it is not sufficient that they are time correlated. I point this out as an example, because there are many such statements that are completely unreferenced.
   • What makes ref 162 reliable?
   • The statement "Romania's contribution to the World Heritage List stands out because it consists of some groups of monuments scattered around the country, rather than one or two special landmarks." is very POV, vague, and comes from an unreliable source.
   • According to this tool, refs 40, 54, 121, 130, 151 and two external links are dead.
3. It is broad in its coverage.

   a (major aspects): b (focused):

   • The section "Environment" should be broadend to "Ecology", and be less focused on protected areas.
   • Is the 2002 census the latest population data? Why is the value in the text and the infobox different (by a lot)?
   • I fear that the section about cencoring education is very off topic, since it is a very dimiutive part of the overall education system.
   • The section "national flag" is very short, and could easily be merged into a different section.
   • The section on sports seems way out of porportion. Would it not be better as a part of "culture" (either a paragraph, or a short section)?
4. It follows the neutral point of view policy.

   Fair representation without bias:

   This has been covered in the references section. Lack of proper referencing makes it impossible to establish NPOV.

5. It is stable.

   No edit wars etc.:

6. It is illustrated by images, where possible and appropriate.

   a (images are tagged and non-free images have fair use rationales): b (appropriate use with suitable captions):

   • File:Romanians before WW1.jpg does not look good with so much red. There was a better version a few days ago. I would recommend reverting.
   • File:Putna Monastery.jpg and File:Iasi cultural palace.jpg do not have valid licenses. They must be removed.
   • At three occurrences, the images are 'sandwiching' the text; they must be adjusted to not do so, and if necessary the number of images should be reduced, if there is not room to accommodate them.
   • For reasons of accessibility, do not specify the size of images. This option is for user space, panoramas etc. for portrait-aligned images, use |upright|.
   • File:Romania-demography.png does not have a caption; likewise, 'Romania' should not be bold in captions.
   • Never place an image directly below a === or smaller header, since this will make it difficult to follow the flow of the text.
   • Under economy, instead of a tower, it would be better to have a picture of one of the large industries.
   • Generally, there are too many pictures of old buldings.
7. Overall:

   Pass/Fail:

   There are very many issues with this article, and it fails all but two criteria. I react to that not all the issues named in the previous review had been resolved. In general, the article reads very well, has only a few typographical mistates, few grammer and spelling mistakes. It also covers all areas, but tends to overfoucs on some fields. Unfortunetly, about half the claims are not verified, making it impossible to pass GA. I would recommend that the instances mentioned above are seen to, and that effort is made to referene all claims. After that is done, it may be ready for a new attempt at GA.

"Unfortunetly", the GA itself seems to have "mistates" and "grammer" issues, which leads to a slight overbearing impression.

Also, in regards to a mention of censored education as being off-topic, I beg to differ, and find the matter notable. (Purpleturple talk) 04:46, 19 April 2009 (UTC)

Coat of Arms

I saw a lot of coat of arms, especially historic and old ones that were beautified by adding a transparency effect.
I tried this on the Romanian Coat of Arms and because I didn't want to alter the current Coat of Arms file I created a new file based on it.
Do you think that we should alter the original Coat of Arms by adding the transparency effect?

• 
  Original Coat of Arms
• 
  Beautified Coat of Arms

Please tell me what do you think.
Thanks! Scooter20 (talk) 09:04, 4 March 2009 (UTC)

Isn't the surface 237 500??

I was told in school in Romania that Romania surface is 237 500, while this article shows 238 391. Why this difference? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.238.108.175 (talk) 14:09, 7 March 2009 (UTC)

The 238,391 figure is the current official figure according to INSSE. See also this old discussuib for additional information. --Polaron | Talk 14:55, 7 March 2009 (UTC)

Ok, thanks. You can remove my comment then. It should however be useful in my opinion to make a link to that page (or something similar), for people who still have the same question.

Romania in Central Europe?LOL.Who's then in Eastern Europe?Mongolia?:) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.3.245.201 (talk) 14:27, 21 March 2009 (UTC)

Communes

{{editsemiprotected}} The link under Administrative divisions needs disambiguating to Communes of Romania. 84.68.69.250 (talk) 15:59, 23 March 2009 (UTC)

 Done Leujohn ^(talk) 02:15, 24 March 2009 (UTC)