Talk:World Trade Center controlled demolition conspiracy theories

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NIST only a fraction of the Engineering community

Socking by a probable banned user or meat puppet

To say that NIST represents the Engineering community is incorrect. It represents only a small fraction of the community as a whole. There is no poll of the community and we have no justification for assuming anything about the larger body of engineers. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 199.185.111.14 (talk) 15:49, 17 September 2008 (UTC) The article cites several reliable sources for the statement that the CDH is rejected by engineers, and you haven't provided any references which say otherwise. The engineers who have spoken in favour of the CDH represent a small minority. Hut 8.5 19:44, 17 September 2008 (UTC) There is a petition at Architects and Engineers for 9/11 Truth which disagrees with the official story with over 640 named and qualified architects and engineers. There are many more named students and academics with qualifications also on the petition. It would be nice to see a string of supporters for the official story, wouldn't it? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Ynda20 (talk • contribs) 15:05, 14 April 2009 (UTC) I count 25 AIA members in their "Architects: Degreed & Licensed – Active & Retired" section. Given that the AIA has over 83,500 members this isn't very impressive. The number of people who could possibly have signed their petition is huge. In addition, it's not a reliable source (even newspapers reporting on them only say they "claim" X members) and you don't have to accept controlled demolition to sign it, you just need to believe that it's sufficiently interesting to warrant a bigger investigation. This link is nowhere near enough to counter the multiple reliable sources which say that the majority of engineers reject controlled demolition. Hut 8.5 17:38, 14 April 2009 (UTC) When we talk about reliability, it's important to consider the character of the information provided. If a source says that extra-terrestrial form of life exist, these forms of life would probably not know about it. Here, it's very likely that people who are on the list know about it, and would ask AE911Truth to remove them from the list if they do not agree. AE911Truth would be under legal obligation to do so. We can still argue whether 600 architects are relevant, but we need to consider circumstancial evidence when we assess the reliability of a given source. --Cs32en (talk) 21:00, 14 April 2009 (UTC)

The response to B7 report

The demolition proponents have responded to NIST in a detailed letter. The letter has now been posted in numerous locations.[1][2][3] It makes no sense to remove the positions of demolition proponents from the page claiming to be about the demolition theory. Please do not remove this letter. 152.131.10.133 (talk) 21:15, 17 September 2008 (UTC)

The claim that these sources are now "unreliable" is clearly grasping at straws as a rationale for not allowing the sentence to be added. These sites -- 911blogger.com, 911truth.org, stj911.org -- are all over wikipedia on the 9/11 pages. Since when did they suddenly become unreliable? bov (talk) 21:33, 17 September 2008 (UTC)

They're not reliable. I think we've been allowing some slack for messages apparently from and claiming to be from a source reliable among truthers. I'm not sure it's in keeping with Wikipedia policies, but I'm willing to let it stay in the CDH article, with some corrections. It should not be in a non-fringe article. — Arthur Rubin (talk) 22:38, 17 September 2008 (UTC)

It's interesting that defenders of the official theory on here are trying to hide or bury the challenges to it made by the actual people this article claims to be about, with handwaving about "reliability" and "truthers". The exact same article is posted all over the internet, so the assumption that somehow all these blogs faked this letter, yet none of the 18 authors has noticed or commented, is pretty much as fringe conspiracy theory as it gets. It's like the rightwingers who attack gays and then turn out to be gay themselves . . . Also, tacking the sentence that includes this info onto a long-winded paragraph about the official report, and removing it's date, is another time-honored wikipedia tactic to obfuscate awareness. bov (talk) 20:28, 23 September 2008 (UTC)

It's fascinating that users Hut and Arthur Rubin continue to delete the DATE from a single sentence about the NIST submission comments by demolition proponents. They have no basis for removing it except the need to hide the relevance of it. See here. bov (talk) 20:24, 24 September 2008 (UTC)

Explain the relevance of the date. I don't see it, other than the date being after that of the draft report, and recent enough that no one outside the truth movement would have looked at it yet. — Arthur Rubin (talk) 22:37, 24 September 2008 (UTC)

Engineering community = Zdeněk Bažant?

I spent some time reading this article and tried to figure out what was meant by the engineering community. I came to the conclusion that this community equals Zdeněk Bažant (with the possible addition of 9/11 Commission). Is this correct? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Ilkkah (talk • contribs) 15:00, 21 September 2008 (UTC)

No - it refers to engineers as a collective body. Hut 8.5 15:16, 21 September 2008 (UTC)

I think there should be more citations in the introductory chapter, in that case. Imho. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Ilkkah (talk • contribs) 15:50, 21 September 2008 (UTC)

Why? Is there something wrong with the references we have? Bear in mind that the introduction is meant to summarise the rest of the article, and anything sourced in another part of the article doesn't need to be sourced again in the introduction. Hut 8.5 17:26, 21 September 2008 (UTC)

As a WP reader I was quite confused and had to spend a lot of time finding out what was meant by the engineering community. Basically it just links to Bažant paper (in the first chapter). Could be a good idea to elaborate what is meant by the engineering community (imho, again). Didn't mean anything was wrong with the references, just wanted to see more of those [n] in the first chapter. Ilkkah (talk) 22:29, 21 September 2008 (UTC)

The Bazant paper is the reference cited for the information, it's not a link to improve the reader's understanding. I suppose we could link to Scientific community or Scientific consensus. Hut 8.5 06:36, 22 September 2008 (UTC)

Ok, not reader's understanding. Then I missed the point of WP. I thought it was about reader's understanding of things. Ilkkah (talk) 09:23, 22 September 2008 (UTC)

Yes, you've missed the point. It's so the reader can verify the information in the article, not for the reader's understanding. — Arthur Rubin (talk) 12:35, 22 September 2008 (UTC)

I think it has to be both (yes I checked this http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reference :-) ... OK, my initial question was trollish, sorry about it. I wanted to understand the engineering community comment, and after considerable research I think I can see why it's there. So I'm not complaining because the comment is there (a couple of days ago I wasn't agreeing on it that much, but maybe I have changed my views a bit), I just wished some more backing/explaining/references for it. Ilkkah (talk) 21:46, 22 September 2008 (UTC)

We can all wish for better references. The problem is that, as the mainstream engineering community generally thinks this theory (or theories) has (or have) been discredited, they're not writing about it any more. — Arthur Rubin (talk) 23:33, 22 September 2008 (UTC)

I've linked the term to Scientific community. If necessary I can add two more references to that sentence. Hut 8.5 08:05, 23 September 2008 (UTC)

You can't link it to the scientific community because they are fence sitting on the subject. I think what Ilkkah is talking about is that using the term engineering community should require more than one cite especially as that one couldn't pass a peer review. I suggest citing at least two peer reviewed papers to prove the term is correctly used. Wayne (talk) 15:41, 9 October 2008 (UTC)

Explantion for Diagonally Cut Steel Girder

I did not see the diagonally cut steel girder mentioned on this page. This image has been floating around the internet for some time and it has not been explained. (http://media.portland.indymedia.org/images/2006/06/341239.jpg) How did the steel girder get cut at a diagonal angle. The official NIST explanation says the building collapse began with one column. If this girder was not cut by clean up crews then how was it cut, the collapsing building would not have cut it in such a fasion. This potentially crucial piece of evidence needs to be on this page and it needs to be fully explained. 68.229.87.128 (talk) 19:30, 8 October 2008 (UTC)

In order to add information to Wikipedia articles you need to have references for your claims, can you provide some? I can't see anything in the report saying that only one column failed, can you provide a specific reference for that as well? Hut 8.5 20:00, 8 October 2008 (UTC)

I think you're confused, 68. The NIST report says that building 7 fell because one vertical failed, followed by others. However, the NIST report also says that the two people who were rescued from building 7 after the initial explosions there were rescued after one of the towers fell. The newscasts of their rescue were broadcast before the towers fell. Also, Bazant claims that "the engineering community" agrees with the OTC. However, the real engineering community, as a whole, appears to be just as unconscious as the rest of the population, so Bazant is just spouting baseless propaganda. Neither Bazant nor NIST should be regarded as a reliable souce. We should change the attribution to something more explicit, such as "Bazant claims that the engineering community rejects everything but the official conspiracy theory." FEMA seems to be slightly more reliable.

You will note, however, the recently melted metal around the edges of the cut. Most of the columns were hastily shipped to China and melted down, but some pieces were retained for various reasons. For the ones for which the recently molten metal was recovered, however, it has been shown to be mostly iron with traces of aluminum, sulfur, potassium and manganese, but no chromium, so it comes from some source other than the column itself. Wowest (talk) 06:53, 9 October 2008 (UTC)

FEMA? Reliable? And NIST report clearly stated that the debris from WTC 7 was made available to researchers. If they weren't actually looked at, it must mean the researchers didn't see the need. — Arthur Rubin (talk) 08:01, 9 October 2008 (UTC)

Are you seriously arguing that speculations on the meaning of a contextless photo on the internet are reliable, but a world-renowned engineer writing in a peer reviewed journal or a 10,000 page report produced by hundreds of experts aren't? We have no idea who took this photo, where or when it was taken, or what it is depicting. Including the picture with this information would be pure original research. Hut 8.5 13:35, 9 October 2008 (UTC)

This crops up on Wikipedia whenever brainwashing is involved. We have something called mind-control cults. These groups claim to be religions. They have some fairly predictable, but strange beliefs. You can expect, right off the bat that the leader of the group has a unique relationship with God. Maybe he IS God. One guy claimed to be "greater than God," and another, "greater than or equal to God." Some of the members -- or casualties -- got to be that way because they participated in the "sacrament" of LSD in the leader's presence. Some learned to "pray" or "meditate" in a certain way that deprived them of their ability to criticize what they were told. The biggest issue, here, is the practice -- the hypnotic drugs or unwitting self-hypnotic "meditation" or "prayer."

So, some of these groups got together and bribed experts in the relatively small community of scholars of sociology of religion. They got to go to special conferences, all expenses paid. They got consulting fees. Nothing was stated explicitly, but there were certain expectations, which were met. Suddenly "New Religious Movements" were good and special, even if they were neither new nor religious. However, when someone gets deprogrammed from the practice (not always possible), then they recognize that they believed something they were told with no real proof. Maybe they had an astonishing "religious" experience, but that does not make the explanation they were given true, and they have no proof that the leader really was the Lord.

So, who are the main suspects here? Al Queda and several domestic and/or foreign organizations. Is NIST funded by one of the principal suspects? Yes. In fact, it's subordinate to the Bush White House. Can we believe what it says? Maybe. We can certainly extend tentative suspension of disbelief to some of what NIST has to say, but when it contradicts known facts, we have to be suspicious.

Bezant? He says things he has no way of knowing. Is he intentionally lying when he talks about the "community of engineers?" We have no way of knowing that, and he is an expert, but when over 500 lesser experts disagree with him, we have to evaluate what he says objectively. In that context, we really should say "according to Bazant, the community of engineers rejects...." It's about HONESTY.Wowest (talk) 14:07, 9 October 2008 (UTC)

What you are arguing for has no place in Wikipedia. Wild conspiracy theories can't be used to evaluate the credibility of sources, and the sources in question pass WP:RS with flying colours. The federal government isn't considered a "suspect" by anyone except fringe theorists and our article must reflect this per WP:UNDUE. Even if we take the claims of expert support from the CD supporters at face value they don't represent anything more than a tiny fraction of the hundreds of thousands of experts in the fields in question. This is still original synthesis to advance a viewpoint. Hut 8.5 19:47, 9 October 2008 (UTC)

Question

Yeah, kinda new, where should I add these links: http://www.tms.org/pubs/journals/JOM/0112/Eagar/Eagar-0112.html http://www.tms.org/pubs/journals/JOM/0711/banovic-0711.html They seem relevant, but I'm not sure where they would go. Thanks Soxwon (talk) 15:35, 13 January 2009 (UTC)

You could put them in an external link section or cite them as references somewhere. There is an article on the collapse of the World Trade Center, they might be better off there. Hut 8.5 19:42, 13 January 2009 (UTC)

I tried to add them as references, but it didn't seem right, I think the external link is what I was looking for. Thank you Soxwon (talk) 04:49, 14 January 2009 (UTC)

JOM only says "The editor or advisor acquires a prospective manuscript, both review it and consider the merit and compatibility of the paper with the proposed technical emphasis topic. Usually, this process takes about a month.", so there may be doubt about whether this is really peer-reviewed. --Cs32en (talk) 21:15, 14 April 2009 (UTC)

Neutral Point of View on Articles on Fringe Topics

I don't know if this is a problem with this article specifically, but I posted this on some other articles relating to 9/11 conspiracy theories and thought it might be helpful here.

In articles on fringe topics, we are not supposed represent the fringe theory as if it is a legitimate viewpoint or on some kind of equal footing. Instead, we're supposed to fairly represent all sides of an issue per reliable sources. If reliable sources reflect a particular viewpoint, then we're supposed to represent that viewpoint as well. In a case such as this article, I doubt if there are many (if any) reliable sources that claim the WTC was destroyed via controlled demolition. Even if there are any, weight should be roughly proportional to the preponderance of reliable sources backing that perspective.

As a result, there might be a WP:NPOV issue with this article. This article should treat this topic in the same manner as reliable sources do. Thus, if NIST, Popular Mechanics, the BBC, ABC News, Time Magazine, etc. regard the controlled demolition conspiracy theory as outlandish bunk unsupported by factual evidence, that that's how this article should be written. To do otherwise, is against WP:NPOV.

In other words, the viewpoints of reliable sources are the standard by which we write our articles and judge its neutrality.

A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 18:39, 16 February 2009 (UTC)

You are not supposed to represent any sides of an issue. You present facts, and then present citations so those facts can be verified. I dispute the neutrality of this article based on the title. I feel the title of the article is not neutral. The title infers its not true before the reader has a chance to read any data. The word conspiracy should not be in the title. Rtconner (talk) 07:23, 14 April 2009 (UTC)

We do present facts. It is a fact that Islamic terrorists attacked the US on 9/11 and it is a fact that these attacks brought down the WTC, not controlled demoltion. As for the title, you'll need reliable sources to back you up. We already looked it up and the vast majority of reliable sources about controlled demolition on 9/11 refer to it as a conspiracy theory. Regardless, I'd suggest you make future posts in the thread about the title as this one was just a helpful reminder. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 10:39, 14 April 2009 (UTC)

BTW, we are supposed to represent view points on an issue. Please read the policy pages I linked to in my original post to this thread. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 13:22, 14 April 2009 (UTC)

I didnt think a conspiracy theory page was a reliable source anyway since its not based on factOttawa4ever (talk) 16:38, 19 February 2009 (UTC)

This line is deceptive

"Engineers were in fact initially surprised by the collapses[18][19][20] and at least one considered explosives as a possible explanation.[21] " I think this line leaves the impression that engineers were surprised by the collapses after the planes struck, when, I believe, the articles themselves expressed surprise at 9/11 generally. Additionally, we should be clear that when we say that engineers considered explosives as an explanation, they considered the explanation and found it to be absurd. Bonewah (talk) 21:32, 23 February 2009 (UTC)

Much agreed, Also source [21] is from 8 days after 9/11. It would seem to be pretty unrealistic that an engineer could accurately assess accuraetly the event in that short of time Ottawa4ever (talk) 20:29, 24 February 2009 (UTC)

User:Aude compiled a list of engineers' statements about the collapse in the immediate aftermath of 9/11 here, most of them don't indicate surprise that the towers fell. I agree this ought to be removed. Hut 8.5 20:41, 24 February 2009 (UTC)

Perhaps you need to read Bazants paper again. Quote:To structural engineers, the collapse of the World Trade Center (WTC) towers on 9/11/2001 came as the greatest surprise since the collapse of Tacoma Narrows Bridge in 1940. Wayne (talk) 08:10, 6 April 2009 (UTC)

A very similar sentence was removed from Collapse of the World Trade Center because it did not represent the majority of the sources.[4] To be consistent we should remove it from here. Hut 8.5 08:32, 6 April 2009 (UTC)

It does not have to "represent the majority of the sources". The claim is not disputed so as long as it is reliably sourced then it is relevant and should stay. Wayne (talk) 08:47, 6 April 2009 (UTC)

The sentence is accurate. Everyone was surprised at 911 but that is not what the engineers are refering to. It is clear that they were surprised by the collapses themselves from an engineering viewpoint as it was believed to be virtually impossible given the state of pre 911 knowledge. If such was not the case then there would have been no need for NIST to investigate as NIST themselves admit. That at least one engineer considered explosives is not disputed and that he changed his mind later does not alter the accuracy of the sentence. Don't give conspiracy theorists ammunition to support their claims of censorship guys. Wayne (talk) 16:49, 5 April 2009 (UTC)

Evidence of Explosion: What Kind of Bomb Could Have Pulverized Everything?

Apparent trolling by editor who is now indefinitely blocked

From the article: "Additionally, the production and expansion of the enormous dust clouds that covered Manhattan after the collapses has also been taken as an indication of an additional source of energy, such as explosives. Some proponents suggest that the energy required for this expansion alone (ignoring the energy needed to slice the steel and pulverize the concrete and other materials) exceeded the gravitational energy available by 9.7 × 1012 J to 4.2 × 1013 J.[44][66] This corresponds to extra energy of about 2000 to 10000 tons of TNT, or 40 to 200 times the yield of the most powerful conventional bomb. NIST attributes these clouds to the ejection of air from compressed parts of the building.[23]" The reference #23 is broken. That's NIST's POV . . . sounds incredible, unbelievable to ALL skeptics of the Government's POV. No one has adequetly explained where two 100-story buildings vanished to except "the enormous dust clouds that covered Manhattan" several inches deep in some places. Also note the tiny debris pile of mostly steel beams . . . like where's all the broken glass, concrete, steel desks, etc? Since there was no radioactivity at Ground Zero, it seems obvious to me (and many 9/11 researchers), some kinda non-radioactive bomb destroyed the Twin Towers. I'm NOT an expert on bombs but it appears likely some kind of Thermobaric bomb was used. Here's what a 9/11 skeptic wrote about Thermobaric bombs at the WTC if U Google, "Thermobaric" & "WTC" you will find others saying a bomb such as this brougnt down the WTCs. A reference is also needed for this sentence in the above-quoted paragraph: "This corresponds to extra energy of about 2000 to 10000 tons of TNT, or 40 to 200 times the yield of the most powerful conventional bomb." Raquel Baranow (talk) 16:09, 20 March 2009 (UTC) Okay, you've restored the WP:SOAPy content that I previously removed as a misuse of this talk page. The next step is I am giving you the WP:ARB9/11 warning notification. If you continue using Wikipedia as a Truther chatroom, you'll swiftly be banned from these pages. Jehochman Talk 16:34, 20 March 2009 (UTC) I suggest a new Topic catagory in the article discussing Thermobaric_weapon Bombs.Raquel Baranow (talk) 16:55, 20 March 2009 (UTC) If you are proposing a specific change to the article, please specify what it is, along with sources. Hut 8.5 17:10, 20 March 2009 (UTC) I'm suggesting we have a new section in the article explaining the likelyhood that a Thermobaric bomb pulverized the Twin Towers. I'm also saying that citations are needed for one sentence (see above) and that the link to reference 23 is broken. Raquel Baranow (talk) 18:48, 20 March 2009 (UTC) Yes, but what do you want to put in this section? And which sources back it up? Hut 8.5 19:08, 20 March 2009 (UTC) I've fixed the link and added a template requesting a citation to the claim. Hut 8.5 19:27, 20 March 2009 (UTC) What page number in reference link #23 explains why there was a tiny debris pile and dust several inches thick throughout lower Manhattan? I'm suggesting a topic in the article discussing the likely-hood of bombs in the WTC. Google: "Thermobaric" & "WTC" you will find others saying a bomb brought down the WTCs. Raquel Baranow (talk) 20:32, 20 March 2009 (UTC) I Googled "Thermobaric" and "WTC". Admittedly I did not check every single reference, but in general, all I got back were just a bunch of crazy 9/11 conpiracy sites. Wikipedia doesn't write articles based on insane conspiracy theory web sites. Instead, we rely on reliable sources. Do you have any reliable sources that actually claim that thermobaric bombs were used to pulverize the Twin Towers? If not, it doesn't belong in the article. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 04:22, 21 March 2009 (UTC) If there aren't any "reliable" sources to explain why there is such a small debris pile (no broken glass, desks, etc. from two 100-story buildings) and several inches of dust throughout Manhattan. Then what are U going to do? Ignore the elephant in the room as if the evidence for something unusual isn't there? Obviously bombs were planted in the WTC's which pulverized the buldings. Check out these pics for evidence of explosion. Raquel Baranow (talk) 15:55, 21 March 2009 (UTC) If you want to include something in the article, you have to provide sources to back it up. That is how Wikipedia works. Simply saying "It's obvious" doesn't cut it. Flickr images can't be used as sources by the way. Hut 8.5 17:01, 21 March 2009 (UTC) O.K. Raquel -- you have valid eye-witness accounts of various phenomena, such as the absence of any office equipment even as large as a telephone. The question is whether commercially available DVD's of firemen and other eyewitness constitutes a Wikipedia "Reliable Source." I don't see why it shouldn't. That would appear to have about the same status as a book. If we see an identifiable fireman on a commercially available DVD making a statement, it should be clear that he made the statement. If the fireman didn't publish the DVD himself, then we have a third party source that he made the statement. However, you need to CITE the source. You can't just assume that someone else understands what you're referring to. On the other hand, this "thermobaric" theory is pure speculation. If we examine the available physical and video evidence, it's clear (1) that the second tower hit was leaning out over the street and about to topple when an unidentified energy source (2) dessicated and pulverized the concrete in the upper floors resulting in "pyroclastic" clouds of material finer than a human hair. Subsequently, the structural metal in the upper floors was "pancaked" together into what appears,in the available photograph (3) , as a "diamond" shape , which is also moved toward the center of the structure. Finally, the upper floors fell into the lower floors which had previously supported them, but with all of their weight now concentrated in the point of the "diamond" at the center of the underlying structure. Then the tower fell. That's pretty clear from the pictures, but are the pictures obtainable by Wikipedia? Each of (1), (2) and (3) is a separate photograph, and I've only seen (3) once, myself. I have some questions about its authenticity, actually. The scholarly debate here is whether the steel in the floors below the point of impact should have had enough resiliency to resist the force of gravity on the disconnected upper section. The other issue is where the energy came from to pulverize the concrete to such a degree. However, the scholars raising these questions are not, for the most part, doing so in mainstream scientific journals. Additionally, you can't really explain what is shown in the photographs without engaging in "original research." It is necessary either to find a "reliable source" who reports the explanation or to write a book or article which is published by a "reliable source" so that you can quote yourself. Otherwise, even if you can get appropriate releases for the three photographs, that's all you have -- three photographs. Wowest (talk) 06:42, 4 April 2009 (UTC) There's lotsa good evidence in videos of firemen saying there were explosions. Another video of a chief fireman who was in WTC7 who was victim of an explosion who was rescued and interviewed on a nwes station. These people obviously aren't actors. Some of these videos are soooo convincing I don't see how anyone can still believe the government's conspiracy theory. I had to delete the flickr photo 'cause the flickr police NIPSA'd my account so I substituted my webpage, which has many pics and the two videos I mentioned here. Raquel Baranow (talk) 17:43, 4 April 2009 (UTC) Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. In any case, this is not a discussion forum for controlled demolition conspiracy theories or 9/11 denial. This is a talk page for the improvement of this article. What is the specific change that you would like to make to the article and what reliable sources do you have to back it up? If you don't have any, I suggest you seek an internet forum. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 18:17, 4 April 2009 (UTC) I'm saying, the article is biased, missing a lot of information, needs to be improved or deleted. Here's some examples of bias in the article: "Supporters of the hypothesis claim that anecdotal evidence[21] of molten steel found in the rubble of the collapse[56]." Should read "eyewitness testimony." "the use of thermite, explosives, or some combination thereof is the most common suggestion being made today.[2][3][4] I'd like to add, "thermobaric bombs" with links to an article at 911Research.com. "The investigation noted that no blast was audible on recordings of the collapse and that no blast was reported by witnesses." This is not true. The video I cited above has a very credible witness interviewed by a TV station saying he was a victim of an explosion in WTC7, the witness also mentioned stepping over dead bodies in the lobby of WTC7 as he was being evacuated/rescued by firemen! "It was first suggested in late 2001 and has since become increasingly important to the 9/11 Truth Movement, but is rejected by the mainstream media and the mainstream engineering community.[1]" Why does "mainstream media" have to be mentioned? Mainstream media in Russia recently showed an entire video, I forget which one, on public TV and, more and more archetects & engineers are comming out against the government's conspiracy theory. (see AE911Truth.org) There's so much more wrong with this article. The article should be deleted! Raquel Baranow (talk) 20:53, 4 April 2009 (UTC) "anecdotal evidence" is the term used by the source, which meets WP:RS, so that is what we should call it. "the use of thermite..." the terms already in this sentence are backed up with references either to reliable sources or to people who have been mentioned in reliable sources as promoting CD theories. 911Research.com isn't in this category and the fact that someone has suggested thermobaric bombs doesn't mean it's one of the most common suggestions. "The investigation noted that no blast was audible on recordings of the collapse and that no blast was reported by witnesses." It is certainly true that the investigation noted this. The sentence is referring to NIST, which said that "no blast sounds were heard on the audio tracks of video recordings during the collapse of WTC 7 or reported by witnesses" (see the reference cited in the article). "mainstream media and the engineering community". The sentence is included because there are sources backing up both parts of it. (In fact the reference cited is a proper academic journal.) AE911Truth.org is not a reliable source and they do not represent most of the engineering community. I should also note that articles are only deleted through Wikipedia's deletion policy. It is extremely unlikely that an attempt to delete this article would succeed. Hut 8.5 09:59, 5 April 2009 (UTC) Point 1: The source says "anecdotal evidence" because he never interviewed the eyewitnesses which makes the terminology correct. If you want to change it to "eyewitness evidence" you need to find a relevant RS source that does interview the witnesses. Point 2: Thermobaric bomb claims are by no means common enough to have more than a passing reference if at all. Point 3: You are indeed correct that the claim is wrong in regards to witnesses but IT IS what the investigation reported. It might be appropriate to mention that many witnesses did report explosions somewhere but mention should then also be made that they misinterpreted what they heard. I believe a source I once read claims they were hearing the building moving. Point 4: Mainstream media still rejects the hypothesis regardless of how many engineers come out in support. Please avoid bringing up multiple complaints. Getting consensus or not on one at a time is easier and less disruptive than presenting 3 or 4 suggestions that are OR or unsupported and having a valid concern that might have otherwise got consensus lumped in with it. You may feel strongly about 911 but care must be taken when dealing with a controversial subject. Wayne (talk) 17:41, 5 April 2009 (UTC)

Recommend renaming this article

There is no "hypothesis" that controlled demolition brought down the WTC. There are "conspiracy theories" that this occurred, but thats all. I recommend and urge we retitle this article to properly reflect what this article discusses, namely the conspiracy theories. So I think that retitling it to [[Controlled demolition conspiracy theories about the collapse of the World Trade Center]] would be the most accurate title which reflects the information in the article.--MONGO 03:46, 5 April 2009 (UTC)

I'm inclined to agree with Mongo. I did several Google searches on "Controlled demolition hypothesis" and the vast majority of hits come from 9/11 conspiracy Web sites, none of which qualify as WP:RS. If you ignore the conspiracy Web sites (as we should) and only look at reliable sources, the term "Controlled demolition hypothesis" is hardly ever used. The overwhelming majority of reliable sources refer to the "controlled demolition" of the World Trade Center as a conspiracy theory. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 15:38, 5 April 2009 (UTC)

Is Wikipedia an encyclopedia or do we use newspaper terminology? A conspiracy theory is who did it and why while a hypothesis is what happened. A conspiracy theory requires a hypothesis as a basis. To use newspaper terminology is inappropriate and could even be POV.
Conspiracy Theory-noun: a belief that some covert but influential organization is responsible for an unexplained event.
Hypothesis-noun: a tentative theory; a concept that is not yet verified but that if true would explain certain facts or phenomena. Wayne (talk) 16:37, 5 April 2009 (UTC)

Most reliable sources talk about "controlled demolition" and then go on to describe it as a conspiracy theory. A hypothsis is a scientific proposal that has yet to be proven. Things that are patently false are not called hypotheses. Only Truther literature uses the term "controlled demolition hypothesis". Therefore, in accordance with our general practice on Wikipedia to call things by what they are, I think this article should be named World Trade Center controlled demolition conspiracy theories. See also Chemtrail conspiracy theory, Barack Obama citizenship conspiracy theories, Kennedy assassination conspiracy theories, October surprise conspiracy theory. Jehochman ^Talk 19:14, 5 April 2009 (UTC)

Rename it. Isn't a hypothesis something that can be falsified? But to the point, calling it the "controlled demolition hypothesis" is substituting what some guys on the internet think best for what the sources say. That's original research. We should describe things as the sources describe them. To the extent they talk about this at all, they do so in the context of the 911 conspiracy theories. Tom Harrison ^Talk 19:39, 5 April 2009 (UTC)

Done. Jehochman ^Talk 03:40, 6 April 2009 (UTC)

How is it that several editors with a known bias suggest a name change using false information in support and six hours later it is a done deal? If it had been a move by conspiracy theorists they ould have been blocked if not topic banned. Since the reasons given for the change are not valid (have you even read the reliable sources?) I request the name be reverted and time given for editors to comment. Nist uses several phrases in ther reports when talking of controlled demolition. 1: Controlled demolition hypothesis (the most common term they use), 2: Controlled demolition theory, 3: Controlled demolition event and 4: an alternative hypothesis. Are you suggesting NIST is not a reliable source? If Nist is not reliable then how about Bazant who uses the term? Manuel Garcia? A physicist and engineer at the Lawrence Livermore National Laboratory uses the phrase Controlled demolition hypothesis in his article titled We See Conspiracies That Don't Exist The Physics of 911 as does Pierre Sprey in his The Absurdity of Controlled Demolition. Even Shermer called it the planned demolition hypothesis. Wayne (talk) 08:02, 6 April 2009 (UTC)

• @Wayne, Conspiracy theorists are definitely not on equal footing at Wikipedia. Wikipedia is for verifiable facts. Jehochman ^Talk 11:16, 7 April 2009 (UTC)

• A name change seems perfectly reasonable to me. WP:NAME says that "Generally, article naming should prefer what the greatest number of English speakers would most easily recognize", and when the controlled demolition ideas are discussed in reliable sources they are labelled as conspiracy theories, even in academic journals. Furthermore I should note that the article's title was one of the reasons why it failed a GA review in 2008. NIST reports use phrases like "allegations of controlled demolition" or "hypothetical blast scenarios" to describe parts of the idea. Hut 8.5 11:32, 7 April 2009 (UTC)

• I'd suggest to rename the article "World Trade Center controlled demolition allegations", as the term "allegation", according to the Wiki entry, describes "a claim of a fact by a party in a pleading, which the party claims to be able to prove" (without at the same time implying that the claim would be about the existence of a conspiracy). --Cs32en (talk) 01:28, 10 April 2009 (UTC)

• You sound a lot like prior editors who were banned from this page, and I notice that you have a very short edit history, focusing on 9/11 conspiracy theory topics. So, have you ever edited Wikipedia before under a different userid? Jehochman ^Talk 01:38, 10 April 2009 (UTC)

Sorry, I could not answer your question earlier, as my account was temporarily blocked. I am also using an account on the German Wikipedia, which you can find here. I have never edited Wikipedia under a different userid.

There seem to exist considerable cultural differences between Wikis of different countries. For example, if you log out from the English Wikipedia, you see the following text:

"You are now logged out. This computer may be used to browse and edit Wikipedia without a username, or for another user to log in."

Logging out from the German Wikipedia, the notice reads:

"You are now logged out. You can continue to use Wikipedia (your edits will be registered with your IP adress), or you can log in again.

(I do not think anyone using Wikipedia for any extended period of time should use an IP adress.) --Cs32en (talk) 01:57, 11 April 2009 (UTC)

Yes, indeed. There are big differences. By now you are aware that this article is a battlezone, and that this talk page has been engaging in circular discussions with tendentious editors and banned editors using sock puppets. Please forgive us for being suspicious. 9/11 is not some minor event. The media in New York cover evering single detail and angle that has any legitimacy. If you need to look to far distant media to find verification of something, that something is likely to be quite dubious. There is an online community of Truthers who are lobbying quite heavily to promote their conspiracy theories. It is not surprising that they occasionally dupe somebody into publishing something. My concern is that these folks not be allowed to use Wikipedia as a platform for their propaganda. Jehochman ^Talk 02:30, 11 April 2009 (UTC)

Asserting that only New York media is reliable and other sources dubious is laughable. U.S. media is widely known as unreliable on some topics. There is no online community of truthers as exists for the opposite viewpoint although I accept that though I have not seen evidence of one I may be wrong. I doubt that there is more than minimal contact between them and lobbying is non existant. My concern is that reliably sourced good faith edits are treated as using Wikipedia as a "platform for their propaganda" if any of a certain group don't like it. Unless an editor has a history of propaganda treat them as you wish your edits to be treated instead of dismissing everything you dont agree with. Wayne (talk) 19:14, 11 April 2009 (UTC)

Removals of the new paper

Thread by editor who is now topic banned

Please explain why the article about demolition "conspiracy theories" is not allowed to include references to the papers that are written about the subject itself, just because they are published by Bentham. Obviously there is no concern about references to conspiracy theory books. But since when is an open scientific journal not allowed on wikipedia? Bentham articles have been referenced here for a long time, and the topic is extremely relevant to this article, written by the very researchers the article is supposedly about. If one were writing an article about moon landing deniers, but no actual articles written by moon landing deniers would be allowed to even be referenced in the article, how is anyone supposed to see what the claims actually are? The only reason I can imagine is that editors here don't want anyone to know that conspiracy theorists have written articles at all. If their claims are all wrong, what difference does it make if people see them? Apparently if the public sees these articles, they will be misinformed about what the conspiracy theories are really about. Or is there some other reason? bov (talk) 02:37, 8 April 2009 (UTC) "If one were writing an article about moon landing deniers, but no actual articles written by moon landing deniers would be allowed to even be referenced in the article, how is anyone supposed to see what the claims actually are?" The answer to this question would be how do reliable sources treat these claims? If no reliable source has covered the conspiracy theories, then it need not be in the article. If reliable sources have covered the conspiracy theories, then they might be in article but only as the reliable sources resported it. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 02:59, 8 April 2009 (UTC) A Quest For Knowledge, would you see a government-owned Danish television channel as a reliable source, and if so, would you be in favor or against including the information about the published paper, as reported by the television channel, in the article? --Cs32en (talk) 07:02, 11 April 2009 (UTC) Why are we labelling these papers as "reaction of the engineering community"? They weren't written by engineers, so keeping them in this section falsely implies that engineers are writing papers about controlled demolition ideas. If these papers are going to stay they need to be moved to another section. Hut 8.5 12:37, 8 April 2009 (UTC) I have requested arbitration enforcement. We should not have to answer the same questions to the same users a million times. Jehochman Talk 13:06, 8 April 2009 (UTC) You opened the door to the same questions with the name change. If the name change is acceptable then material that may not have been appropriate for a hypothesis is now relevant under the more general conspiracy theory title. For example, no reasonable arguement can now be made to keep out the Bentham paper anymore. Wayne (talk) 13:34, 8 April 2009 (UTC) That's almost true. However, the claim that either Bentham paper is in a peer-reviewed journal is not suitable for inclusion, nor is the claim that the authors are engineers or otherwise credible. Notability is still in question, not verifiability. — Arthur Rubin (talk) 13:45, 8 April 2009 (UTC) {ec} Is Bentham a reliable source? A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 13:46, 8 April 2009 (UTC) Probably not. I don't have the pointers on the tips of my fingers, but there is evidence that people (not necessarily experts) were encouraged to sign up to be "peer"-reviewers. It may not apply to all Bentham open-access journals. — Arthur Rubin (talk) 14:34, 8 April 2009 (UTC) Bentham is peer reviewed but a minority query how extensively based mainly on the fact that article contributors pay for the review. The "encouragment" was Bentham mass mailing scientists and University professors offering them a place on the review board when the journals were first set up. While some were not as qualified as they should have been there has been no evidence that article reviews have been compromised. However the edit Bov made does not mention peer review so it's left for the reader to decide reliability. I also notice the edit makes no claim that the authors are engineers, it is clear that they are chemists and physicists which is consistant with what the paper is about and the journal it is in (The Open Chemical Physics Journal) and it is also clear that such disciplines are part of the engineering community. I see no problem with the edit as it is consistant with the article subject and is not pushing any view. Wayne (talk) 14:57, 8 April 2009 (UTC) Based on the article's contents, they apparently analyzed dust that random people sent to them: "It was learned that a number of people had saved samples of the copious, dense dust, which spread and settled across Manhattan. Several of these people sent portions of their samples to members of this research group. This paper discusses four separate dust samples collected on or shortly after 9/11/2001. Each sample was found to contain red/gray chips. All four samples were originally collected by private citizens who lived in New York City at the time of the tragedy. These citizens came forward and provided samples for analysis in the public interest, allowing study of the 9/11 dust for whatever facts about the day might be learned from the dust." A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 15:20, 8 April 2009 (UTC) Thay may be a problem best left for the reader. That all samples were identical is support for their provenance. Another supporting factor is that NIST also found the same chemicals in the 911 dust but didn't investigate further as they believed they were likely naturally produced from the destruction of the building contents. I believe that the papers point is that they were in quantities more consistant with explosives than contents. They are likely wrong but that is not for us to say. The idea of research is to discover facts to form a hypothesis and let scientists (and by extension lay readers) decide for themselves which is the stronger case. If the hypothesis is out there it should be presented to Wikipedia readers in an appropriate manner. Just because it lends support for a conspiracy theory doesn't make it true. The assasination of JFK and his brother are examples where some facts support conspiracy theories better than the official theory does but we still accept the official theory because it has more evidence, yet we still include those facts in their articles so I fail to see why this topic should be treated differently. Wayne (talk) 16:28, 8 April 2009 (UTC) Including these papers in a section entitled "reaction of the engineering community" implies that they are part of the response of engineers to the idea of controlled demolition, like the publications described earlier in this section. In fact they are written by prominent non-engineer proponents of controlled demolition. Descriptions of the papers should therefore be moved to "History" or "Notable proponents". I don't mind mentioning this paper somewhere, as long as we are clear this is just another publication by controlled demolition proponents. Hut 8.5 19:26, 8 April 2009 (UTC) I have no problem with it being in another section. Wayne (talk) 20:20, 9 April 2009 (UTC) I basically agree that the reference to the paper should be moved to another section, if the section title remains as it is. However, it is probably preferable to rename the section to "Discussion within the scientific community", instead of "engineering community", as the latter is (a) too restrictive and (b) appears to convey the notion that the community as a whole would "react" in some way, which is not how such communities work. Please note that the authors of the paper are not just "controlled demolition proponents", but (in part) scientists in a relevant field, i.e. nano-technology. The editor-in-chief of the publication, Prof. Marie-Paule Pileni, member of the European Academy of Science, has received, among others, the Research award of the prestigious German Alexander von Humboldt Foundation. --Cs32en (talk) 20:47, 9 April 2009 (UTC), modified --Cs32en (talk) 20:58, 9 April 2009 (UTC) Please see Exceptional claims require exceptional sources: "Exceptional claims require exceptional sources Certain red flags should prompt editors to examine the sources for a given claim: * surprising or apparently important claims not covered by mainstream sources; * reports of a statement by someone that seems out of character, embarrassing, controversial, or against an interest they had previously defended; * claims that are contradicted by the prevailing view within the relevant community, or which would significantly alter mainstream assumptions, especially in science, medicine, history, politics, and biographies of living persons. This is especially true when proponents consider that there is a conspiracy to silence them. Exceptional claims in Wikipedia require high-quality sources. If such sources are not available, the material should not be included." A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 02:26, 10 April 2009 (UTC) The Danish government-owned television channel TV2 has broadcast an interview and a discussion with the corresponding author of the paper, Niels Harrit. The discussion took place in a breakfast talkshow named "Good morning, Denmark". The interview, with English subtitles, can be found here. Judging from the English subtitles, neither the channel nor the interviewer characterize the researchers as conspiracy theorists, although, at one point, the interviewer asks: "What do you say to viewers who hear about your research and say, 'we’ve heard it all before, there are lots of conspiracy theories'?". --Cs32en (talk) 06:42, 11 April 2009 (UTC)

Removed Information

Circular discussion started by single purpose account

In April 2009, Danish chemist Niels H. Harrit, of the University of Copenhagen, and 8 other authors, published a paper in The Open Chemical Physics Journal, titled, 'Active Thermitic Material Discovered in Dust from the 9/11 World Trade Center Catastrophe'. The paper suggested that super-thermite chips were discovered in the dust and was covered in the Danish and Croatian press as well as in Utah. Thanks for this - it became apparent from my watchlist that there was something somebody didn't want me to read here, for whatever reason. Now that I have read it, the only conceivable reasons I can think why somebody wouldn't want me to have read that information, are all utterly vile and reprehensible, sir. Please give an adequate rationale why I should not have been allowed to read that. No Time Toulouse (talk) 13:48, 8 April 2009 (UTC) Hello, sockpuppet. Because Bentham's editorial policies are, shall we say, doubtful, this statement is not allowable unless the authors were recognized experts in the field. Furthermore, even if they were recognized experts, it's a summary paper quoting Jones's earlier Bentham paper for which there is a credible claim that even the doubtful editorial policies were not followed. — Arthur Rubin (talk) 14:31, 8 April 2009 (UTC) I've never had any involvement with this article or this subject whatsoever - but I have been watchlisting it and lurking for some time. It seems pointless to deny that we are talking about a potential crime scene, and potential evidence to that crime. I first found out about this evidence existing, when I noticed that high level wikipedia administrators were pulling every trick available to stop potential crime evidence from being considered - a claim that thermate use was found on analysis of the residue. Even including my fear of being banned or worse now just for expressing my opinion here. I would imagine it's really too late too "keep a lid on" this report now, simply by banning anyone who mentions its existence on wikipedia, and thereby backfiring by drawing more attention to the report instead of keeping new attention away from it. But the mentality behind all the insults and threats here seems the same: Fatetur facinus qui judicium fugit. That's all I have to say now. No Time Toulouse (talk) 13:49, 11 April 2009 (UTC) Four major Danish newspapers, across the political landscape, have reported on the publication. Collectively, they directly reach 8-10% of the population of Denmark. Videnskab, a science journal sponsored by the Danish Minstry for Science and Technology, currently features this as their main story for the month of April. The editor-in-chief of the journal has received numerous scientific awards and is an officer of the French National Order of Merit. People who ignore these facts are probably also thinking that Cheney is still Vice President, because the New York Times and CNN are unreliable news sources. --Cs32en (talk) 00:28, 10 April 2009 (UTC) This is just my 2 cents but... Regarding Bentham, WP:V states that "articles should be based upon reliable, third-party published sources with a reputation for fact-checking and accuracy." Does Bentham has a reputation for fact-checking and accuracy? Regarding the Danish newspapers, we really should avoid foreign language newspapers. This is an English wikipedia for English readers. Yes, foreign language sources are allowed but should be avoided and it's up to the editors to make this decision. There are more than enough English sources to use. There shouldn't be any reason to have to resort to foreign sources. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 01:22, 10 April 2009 (UTC)

It seems Mr. Jehochman is either forgetting that wikipedia is 100% transparent and can be followed by anyone anywhere, or else he deliberately wishes to be seen as trying to obscure even discussion of potential criminal evidence to a crime scene. I would not be surprised if more and more lurkers come out of the woodwork with this kind of leak being reported, but it does not mean they are all "sockpuppets" or "single purpose accounts", it just means lots of unconnected people are wondering the same thing. No Time Toulouse (talk) 15:44, 11 April 2009 (UTC)

Attempted user intimidation

Single purpose account objected to receiving the ARB9/11 warning.

I would like to ask the community engaged in editing and improving this article, whether the following method of communication should be considered acceptable practice on Wikipedia: 911 conspiracy theories subject to discretionary sanctions Please follow our core policies on Verifiability, Consensus, and No original research. Note in particular the discretionary sanctions listed here could result in a topic ban. Specificaly, stop trying to force in your version against consensus. The burden is on the person who wannts to add the material to justify it. You haven't met that burden. When you have, you won't have to keep reverting. Tom Harrison Talk 23:45, 9 April 2009 (UTC) Tom, please have look at BRD-cycle. It's obvious that the content in question is verifiable, although people might differ on whether the conclusions of the paper are correct. Also, mentioning the article does not fall under the category of original research, as (a) the research was neither done nor published by me (b) the article is about theories on the WTC destruction, so the article itself is a subject of the article, not a piece of research with regard to the topic of the article. --Cs32en (talk) 00:13, 10 April 2009 (UTC) --Cs32en (talk) 00:57, 10 April 2009 (UTC) I don't see anything wrong with Tom's communication. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 01:13, 10 April 2009 (UTC) Good work, Tom. Cs32en, please follow the advice. This page has been subject to intense, prolonged abuse. Patience levels here are much lower than elsewhere on Wikipedia. Jehochman Talk 23:41, 10 April 2009 (UTC)

Horizontal Ejections of Steel

Ok, find reliable sources stating that it's significant and possible explanations. No WP:OR or WP:FRINGE. Thank you, have a nice day.
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
Why does the section on the main towers make no mention of the fact that horizontal pieces of steel weighing several tonnes, were explosively ejected and hurled several hundred feet? Image: [5] It's a fairly key piece of evidence, which has been acknowledged by various official reports. Is it because it hasn't been, and can't be, explained? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 90.219.234.34 (talk) 21:40, 10 April 2009 (UTC) No first of all there's a difference b/w a reliable source and 9/11 truther crap. Learn the difference before you ask why things aren't in the article. Soxwon (talk) 21:47, 10 April 2009 (UTC) It's a photo ... and there are other official photos of steel beams embedded into buildings more than 350 feet away ... such as this one from the FEMA report: http://911guide.googlepages.com/WFC3Damage2.jpg/WFC3Damage2-large.jpg. You can't deny that steel beams were flung huge distances so why can't we include that in the twin tower section? Is it because it can't be debunked? --90.219.234.34 (talk) 22:13, 10 April 2009 (UTC) Ok, find reliable sources stating that it's significant and possible explanations. No WP:OR or WP:FRINGE. Thank you, have a nice day. Soxwon (talk) 23:12, 10 April 2009 (UTC) I think a 100+ story building has more than enough potential energy to make all sorts of things happen to its components during a structural failure. I once dropped a cup that landed on the floor and managed to shoot coffee onto the ceiling. Who could know what might happen to steel girders during a building collapse. It is not appropriate to use this page for such speculations. From now on, I suggest removing any such comments to prevent discussions from being sidetracked. Jehochman Talk 23:38, 10 April 2009 (UTC)

Head of FBI Counterterrorism Division on Controlled Demolition hypothesis

Thread below appears to duplicate this one, which I had formerly deleted.

I propose to include the following information in this article: The FBI does not exclude alternative theories about the attack on Sept. 11, 2001, from its investigation. The head of the FBI Counterterrorism Division has characterized the hypothesis, brought forward by Richard Gage, that the buildings of the World Trade Center would have collapsed as a result of controlled demolitions, as "an interesting theory, backed by thorough research and analysis“. With regard to the relevance and verifiability this information, I would like to add the following: Wikipedia is not about finding out the truth, and this article should not be about finding out the truth, either. This article is about a minority viewpoint, as its title indicates, so the following policy item from WP:SOURCES is relevant: "Tiny-minority views and fringe theories need not be included, except in articles devoted to them" (emphasis by me). As the article is not about the truth, it is not about pointing out the best arguments of both sides, either. It is about the most important positions taken by people and institutions of both sides, about the most prominent people and institutions involved, and about the history and evolution of the theory. Wikipedia should not simply accept that sources that are generally considered reliable are always reliable (for a less serious example, see Dewey Defeats Truman), while others would always be unreliable, although the assumption that a CNN report is more reliable than a peronal internet site may be a good starting point for a discussion. There should be a constructive debate among Wikipedia editors about the reliability of a source, based on the specific circumstances of the case. Otherwise, the issue of reliability would quickly become a circular argument, where sources are reliable just because other sources that are considered reliable say that they would be. With regard to the source of this letter, I am very well aware that it is not a peer-reviewed paper. However, if the letter would have been forged or manipulated, the FBI would have taken effective steps against the publication of the PDF file, and more than three months after its publications, there would be some trace of any such action on the internet. I have added the information above, with (almost) the same wording (e.g., the FBI is the "US-American federal police" in the german text), in the section on "Conspiracy theories" of the main German article on the attacks of Sept. 11, 2001, on March 8. As of today, no other editor has either modified this paragraph or objected to the inclusion of it. --Cs32en (talk) 03:04, 11 April 2009 (UTC)

Disinformation section needed

Rejected idea proposed by anonymous account

For actively controversial pages, there should be included, as part of the article itself, a section that summarizes the nature of the controversy and the efforts by various parties to have their way in determining the final content of the article. It is not enough for this issue to be on the discussion page, even though it is a meta issue. Of course I am not suggesting that all the discussion be in the main article page, but at the very least, a summary of the main points should be on the main page, just so readers know that there is a controversy. It is obvious to anyone who already knows (all the readers of this talk page), but I'm talking about the readers who happen by looking for information that is new to them. How would they know? In particular, regarding 9/11, since it is claimed that the true story includes a coverup of the true story, then the cover up and Disinformation itself is part of that story. Therefore, there should be a section in this page in particular about the recent efforts to change the title and references, etc, to hide the recent article on thermite, and to cast the "hypothesis" as a mere "conspiracy theory". There should be references to other pages on Disinformation as a warning to the reader that even the appearance of credible sources may need to be questioned. To pretend to be objective when there is quite obviously so much subjectivity and prejudice around these controversial issues is self-defeating. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.110.157.3 (talk) 04:47, 11 April 2009 (UTC) I don't think this is a good idea. This would immediately lead to conflicts about what the controversy was about, instead of about how to improve the article, and people would spend time on editing, reverting, and discussing the meta section. In my view, we can safely assume that the people who read this page, which is not the main page about the Sept. 11 attack, but about one alternative theory about the attacks, would be aware that there is controversy about the subject. --Cs32en (talk) 05:01, 11 April 2009 (UTC) I doubt if there are any reliable sources that are about this particular Wikipedia talk page. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 13:05, 11 April 2009 (UTC) (I wrote the proposal, and I didn't want to bother creating a new account (forgot my password, and email has changed), so it was anonymous. Suggesting that I used a "single purpose" account is unnecessarily demeaning.) Regarding your response to my proposal, would it be more or less controversial to agree on what is controversial rather than to fight about which way the article should be phrased as if that is the one truth? I believe that acknowledging and summarizing the controversy will tend to quell the struggle for dominance, rather than inflame it. You inflame it by suppressing the expression of this controversy. But moreover, the controversy and the disinformation campaign IS part of the story itself, and therefore, not acknowledging that controversy is covering up part of the story. You simply have to add this section or admit that you are guilty of exactly what I am talking about: covering up part of the story. This should also be on the main http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/9/11_conspiracy_theories page, and reference it from this page. There is a section on "Criticism" but that is only part of the issue - it should be something like "Controversy". Editing a wiki talk page is a lousy way to have a discussion, by the way. That is disincentive enough.

A conspiracy theory

Since "conspiracy theory" hasnt been probably defined on the wikipedia page, the terminology shouldt be used in naming other articles, because it destroys the validity of them. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conspiracy_theory —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.166.82.240 (talk) 14:39, 11 April 2009 (UTC)

I believe we should reject attempts at wikilawyering by a sock or meat puppet account. Jehochman ^Talk 22:28, 13 April 2009 (UTC)

Head of FBI Counterterrorism Division on Controlled Demolition hypothesis

I propose to include the following information in this article:

The FBI does not exclude alternative theories about the attacks on Sept. 11, 2001, from its investigation. Michael J. Heimbach, head of the FBI Counterterrorism Division has characterized the hypothesis, brought forward by Richard Gage, that the buildings of the World Trade Center would have collapsed as a result of controlled demolitions, as "an interesting theory, backed by thorough research and analysis".

With regard to the relevance and verifiability this information, I would like to add the following:

• The FBI is, of course, a well-known institution, and its views are highly relevant in the context of this article. Michael J. Heimbach, who expresses these views in his capacity as Assistant Director at the FBI, is certainly not a Truther.

• Wikipedia is not about finding out the truth (WP:Verifiability), and this article should not be about finding out the truth, either. This article is about a minority viewpoint, as its title indicates, so the following policy item from WP:SOURCES is relevant: "Tiny-minority views and fringe theories need not be included, except in articles devoted to them" (emphasis by me).

• With regard to the source of this letter, I am very well aware that it is not a peer-reviewed paper. However, if the letter would have been forged or manipulated, the FBI would have taken effective steps against the publication of the PDF file, and more than three months after its publications, there would be some trace of any such action on the internet. Cirumstantial evidence, therefore, indicates that the source is reliable.

• I have added the information above, with (almost) the same wording (e.g., the FBI is the "US-American federal police" in the german text), in the section on "Conspiracy theories" of the main German article on the attacks of Sept. 11, 2001, on March 8. As of today, no other editor has either modified this paragraph or objected to the inclusion of it. --Cs32en (talk) 20:39, 13 April 2009 (UTC)

You can't use unreliable fringe theorist sources to back up statements about anything other than the opinions of the group that published the source. This includes statements commenting on the level of the acceptance of the fringe theory, and we have to be especially careful if we are dealing with statements by real people. The fact that the FBI hasn't requested that the material be removed certainly doesn't make it reliable (see WP:RS for things that do), and decisions on the German Wikipedia have no effect on the English Wikipedia (and vice versa). Hut 8.5 21:26, 13 April 2009 (UTC)

I agree that including this material is not a good idea. Wikipedia does not draw conclusions. We merely assemble what is reported by reliable sources. If it were verifiable and relevant, it would appear in a reliable source, such as the New York Times (which has covered 9/11 in very great detail). We should not look to distant, minor, or exotic sources, nor should be be drawing inferences based on speculation. This article in particular has been the subject of intense speculation, lobbying and attempts at publishing original research. We should very strictly apply Wikipedia's verifiability, neutral point of view and biography of living persons policies here. Jehochman ^Talk 22:26, 13 April 2009 (UTC)

Agreed. There is a big difference between saying it's "interesting" and "backed by thorough research" and saying it's true. There are all sorts of mad theories which are interesting and it is a feature of conspiracy theorists that they tend to be obsessive and thus produce reams of research - of course, such research tends to quietly ignore anything inconvenient to its pre-existing conclusions, which is why it does not generally get published in reliable independent peer-reviewed sources. The controlled demolition theory is a classic conspiracy theory, and this is just one more example of supporting conspiracy theories by demanding proof of a negative. Guy (Help!) 15:31, 14 April 2009 (UTC)

I'm not arguing that Heimbach or the FBI would think that the hypothesis is true. But they say they do not exclude it from their investigation, which at least means that the do not think there is sufficient evidence to declare with certainty that it is false. --Cs32en (talk) 21:07, 14 April 2009 (UTC)

When I was in 5th grade, I was taught that a "hypothesis" was an "educated guess." Not just a guess, but an *educated* guess. It is unfortunate that some editors on Wikipedia choose to act as gatekeepers by insisting that the New York Times is an unquestioningly reputable source when all one has to do is look at the Jayson Blair scandal. It is likewise unfortunate that these same editors have gotten to the point where they can not see the difference between a peer-reviewed scientific study and a conspiracy theory. Clearly the only "agenda" is not by "truthers" but by those folks who wish to marginalize the controlled demolition hypothesis using the term "conspiracy theory," which has become a byword for "wacky nutcase idea." —Preceding unsigned comment added by Kameelyun (talk • contribs) 20:00, 14 April 2009 (UTC)

Aha! You are starting to get the point. Wikipedia is not a platform for publishing wacky, nutcase ideas. There are plenty of websites for that. This isn't one of them. Go elsewhere if that's your agenda. Jehochman ^Talk 21:09, 14 April 2009 (UTC)

So why are there any number of articles on Wikipedia about Flat Earth etc., and there is even an explicit policy on fringe theories, both in articles about the subject of such theories and in articles about such theories themselves? --Cs32en (talk) 21:19, 14 April 2009 (UTC)

As long as we're following NPOV and RS, we're not promoting wacky, nutcase ideas, we're debunking them. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 21:31, 14 April 2009 (UTC)

Wikipedia is neither about promoting nor about debunking ideas. It is about presenting ideas in rough proportion to their notability. --Cs32en (talk) 21:56, 14 April 2009 (UTC)

Have you read the Popular Mechanics and NIST's report regarding the controlled demolition conspiracy theories? They debunk. So should we. It would be against WP:NPOV not to. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 23:13, 14 April 2009 (UTC)

Sir Jehochman: Thank you for acknowledging that you DO have an agenda to marginalize the hypothesis is a "nutcase wacko conspiracy theory." Wikipedia is for finding information. The controlled demolition hypothesis exists, and it is backed explicitly (in writing, if just by petition signature) by hundreds of relevant professionals with appropriate credentials, and likely by thousands more. Not only that, the FBI has acknowledged that the hypothesis is "backed by thorough research and analysis." These facts alone should make anyone's head turn. As such, sir, it is merely YOUR OPINION that it is a "wacky nutcase idea" and you are using your editorial power to attempt to marginalize the idea with the negative term "conspiracy theory" which puts it in the category of Elvis sitings, UFO's etc. I am very disappointed. EDIT: Do you remember the Jayson Blair scandal? Do you remember the "60 Minutes" accuracy scandals? I'm disappointed that you unquestioningly seem to believe that the New York Times is a de facto reliable source.—Preceding unsigned comment added by Kameelyun (talk • contribs) 22:34, 14 April 2009 (UTC)

I notice that your username sounds like Chameleon. Do you change appearances to blend in? Are you avoiding scrutiny by using multiple accounts? Yes, it is my agenda to prevent people from using this website for wikiality. Jehochman ^Talk 23:19, 14 April 2009 (UTC)

This is my first account on Wikipedia because I was angered enough by the censorship on your part to register and give my $0.02. Thank you for admitting you are indeed biased.

Please address personal issues at the talk pages of the respective editors, or at the Administrators' noticeboard, if necessary, Jehochman. Bringing these things up here merely disrupts the discussion. --Cs32en (talk) 23:36, 14 April 2009 (UTC)

Bart Simpson: 'conspiracy theory' is like 'bitch' (female dog)

The first sentence as written says that "theories claim."

The problem is the evidence which might be dealt with as such, which is dealt with as evidence in many countries around the world, and it will be interesting to see the US writers slowly catch up with many countries.

This term used (c.t.) is a perfect one for one who wishes to claim that he "means in a good way" a vague phrase that has cold meanings, like the fun way rascal children like to use the word "bitch" and say they mean "female dog" (think Bart Simpson).

As the families and firefighters note, to criticize evidence (calling it theory) makes sense if we are playing in the land of Simpsons whose double meanings are indeed a joke.

wiki quote:

The term "conspiracy theory" is considered by different observers to be (*) a neutral description for a conspiracy claim, (*) a pejorative term used to dismiss such a claim without examination, and (*) a term that can be positively embraced by proponents of such a claim. The term may be used by some (*) for arguments they might not wholly believe but consider radical and exciting. The most widely accepted sense of the term is (*) that which popular culture and academic usage share, certainly having negative implications for a narrative's probable truth value.

Here come the dogs ..

--Ihaveabutt (talk) 04:42, 15 April 2009 (UTC)

---

The 2008 article "Environmental anomalies at the World Trade Center: evidence for energetic materials" in The Environmentalist

I propose also adding, as a significant event, the following peer-reviewed article published in Springer's science journal to the History section: "Environmental anomalies at the World Trade Center: evidence for energetic materials" http://www.springerlink.com/content/f67q6272583h86n4/ Perscurator (talk) 14:15, 15 April 2009 (UTC)