Talk:Genocides in history

Soviet Section

Shouldn't there be more added to the Soviet Section such as the genocide of Jews after World War 2 and the genocide of Germans, both in the USSR and occupied Europe after the end of WW2, also what about the genocide of other ethnic groups that found themselves on the wrong side after WW2, like the massacre of the cossaks. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.241.73.130 (talk) 11:06, 27 February 2009 (UTC)

Do you have a reliable source that states that these acts were acts of genocide? --PBS (talk) 18:40, 4 April 2009 (UTC)

Afghanistan=Vietnam

If soviet war in Afghanistan is genocide then US war in Vietnam too most.95.52.113.129 (talk) 05:02, 4 April 2009 (UTC)

Do you have a reliable source that say so or this that your own opinion? -- PBS (talk) 18:40, 4 April 2009 (UTC)

crimes against humanity

From the history of the article:

13:04, 1 April 2009 Joebobby1985 (→1915 to 1950: Nowhere in the mentioned sources does it say that this was when the concept of crimes against humanity were introduced. It's worthwhile reading upon 19th century history.)

What the source says:H.RES.316-->Text of Legislation is:

(2) On May 24, 1915, the Allied Powers, England, France, and Russia, jointly issued a statement explicitly charging for the first time ever another government of committing `a crime against humanity'.

Although the concept of "principles of humanity and universal morality" had been around for some time, eg at the Congress of Vienna 100 years before when Britain pushed for a declaration on the Slave Trade, as (see Crime against humanity#Abolition of the slave trade. Do you have any source to show the use of "crimes against humanity" in international relations before 1915, and it clearly existed as a concept after that date, so "In 1915, during World War I, the concept of Crimes against humanity was introduced into international relations for the first time" is not an unreasonable statement given the cited H.RES.316 source. --PBS (talk) 18:58, 4 April 2009 (UTC)

Hello, first off I apologise for a rather late response. I have added in the new sources with regards to King Leopold's rule along with detailed information. However, due to the composition of section titles (where the section after 1915 starts off with giving brief information on when the concept of Crimes against humanity were introduced) I would like to propose a change to the section titles accordingly. The "1915 to 1950" title can be editted to "Late 19th century to 1950" in which it starts off from the first use of the term, to 1950 for convenience.

Kind regards and again, I'm awfully sorry for the late response.

Joebobby1985 (talk) 20:14, 10 April 2009 (UTC)

There has already been some conversations about The Congo Free State in the Archives, and most historians as the archives show do not consider it to be a genocide so the events do not need to be detailed in this article. The sources you have supplied do not support your assertion "The first inter-state accusations made against King Leopold II dated back to 1907, when he was accused of crimes against humanity by the UK." Indeed this source, one of the ones you provided says "The second time the phrase is known to have been used was in May 1915, when the governments of France, Great Britain and Russia made a declaration regarding Turkey’s massacres of its Armenian population at the beginning of the First World War". The breakdown into the sections as they are have been like this for some time and I am not convinced that your edits have improved the article so I am reverting them. What is the advantage that you see to a section starting "Late 19th century"? --PBS (talk) 22:11, 10 April 2009 (UTC)

Hello, well the article states in its first few paragraphs that it includes genocides and alleged genocides. Therefore The Congo Free State certainly seems feasible under this heading in all fairness.

As for the UK accusing King Leopold I forgot to put the other source in. It was from a book so I'll try to find that and add that in later with the page numbers.

You also mentioned "Indeed this source, one of the ones you provided says "The second time the phrase is known to have been used was in May 1915, when the governments of France, Great Britain and Russia made a declaration regarding Turkey’s massacres of its Armenian population at the beginning of the First World War"." However, this was the second time the phrase was used whereas the original text noted it as the first. The subsequent section deals with the same issue so it's just mere repitition to be honest. On the other hand what I intended to point out was the first time it was used and I used it within that context.

As for what advantages I see in changing the section title: The "1915 to 1950" section starts off with giving an introduction of when the term was first used, however since the term was first used to describe the events in the Congo Free State the title would indeed need to be adjusted accordingly to that. I preferred to use a "Late 19th century" title to be rather vague due to the fact that it is difficult to associate the whole vent to just one specific year.

Kind regards and thank you for the quick response.

Joebobby1985 (talk) 22:46, 10 April 2009 (UTC)

It is not genocides alleged by editors of Wikipedia but alleged by reliable sources. See the archives about the Congo listed there is a reliable source that states most historians do not describe the working to death of millions of people as a genocide. As to he section heading the current wording states "In 1915, during World War I, the concept of Crimes against humanity was introduced into international relations for the first time when the Allied Powers sent a correspondence to the government of the Ottoman Empire,..."(my emphasis) which is what the source you provided confirms. That the phrase it had been used by another entity in a letter is not directly pertinent to this article. That it was used by the British government is relevant as this is still their position. Further those found guilty at Nuremberg were found guilty of all sorts of crimes including crimes against humanity because the concept already existed thanks to the WWI declaration and the London Charter of the International Military Tribunal (but the Charter would have been in danger of being retrospective if the previous declarations about CAH had not been made), they were not found guilty of the crime of genocide because it had yet to be defined as a criminal act (which is not the same as saying that a genocide did not take place).

One thing which Google Books is good for is finding earlier dates for a phrase than one cited in more recent books. For example by putting in search dates from 1790 to 1890 it is easy to see that there are lots of earlier publications that use the term "Crime against humanity". Here is one from 1854. Here is another one from 1855: The Sunday of the people in France by I. Mullois, S. Bunbury, on page 21. Here one which is much earlier; Public characters [Formerly British public characters] of 1798-9 - 1809-10, Published 1804. pp. 526,527 "offensive war is a high crime against humanity and Christianity." by Dr Knox from a sermon he gave in Brighton in 1793, almost 100 years before George Washington Williams sent his letter.--PBS (talk) 00:51, 12 April 2009 (UTC)

Ah the bolded part clears things up a bit. Then I'll try and get a hold of the book I mentioned where it's stated that the UK officially condemned the actions in the Congo in 1907. (Don't worry it's from a neutral source, something you find on a rare occassion these days when it comes to controversial topics such as these).

However, I have still yet to be convinced with regards to the actions in the Congo not being an act of genocide, especially as there have is clear evidence of an order given by a higher authority to collect the right hands of the Congolese people. Although that might not fit exactly into the definition of genocide due to there not being an explicit aim of wiping out a race/people, I (just personal opinion after having researched the subject) do think it would fit under the label of an genocide when compared to that of other allegations. The "most historians" part also doesn't seem very convincing (and has never been convincing) as that sounds more like an estimate/guess due to the fact that it sets a barrier with regards to research. So if I just brainstorm a bit here I'm thinking of "most historians" according to what? Who are these people? And what about the ones that aren't included among "most historians"? Are their research methods/conclusions (if there are any) not worthy of a mention?

Anyhow sorry about the little brainstorm session, I understand that Wikipedia is not suited for opinions (rightfully so) and that majority > minority (especially with regards to the amusing maps put up on the topic of Portuguese colonialism on another page simply because the 'majority' see them fit) when it comes to editing articles, and I respectfully disagree with that approach for the sake of research (again, another personal opinion) but I must admit that it does prevent further complications. I'm guessing that's just the North American method :p and if I have a problem with it I should just take it up with the Wikipedia staff I suppose. To avoid any misunderstandings, I don't intend to take part in any editing war either as that's against my nature nor do I have the time, will nor energy to take it up with the Wikipedia staff. I'll continue with my own method of personal research and I just wanted to drop a kind suggestion to approaches when it comes to research, that's all.

Kind regards.Joebobby1985 (talk) 01:39, 12 April 2009 (UTC)

P.S: Thank you for introducing me to Google Books, it seems like a useful tool. I wasn't aware of such a tool due to the fact that I'm horrible with computers.

I'm please that you will find the tool useful. As to the convincing you please follow the link to the archive which has the details of the following: "Adam Hochschild includes in his article a paragraph that starts: 'The exhibit deals with this question in a wall panel misleadingly headed “Genocide in the Congo?” This is a red herring, for no reputable historian of the Congo has made charges of genocide; a forced labor system, although it may be equally deadly, is different.'" --PBS (talk) 01:46, 12 April 2009 (UTC)

Just to clear up any possible confusion, I wasn't challenging the "See the archives about the Congo listed there is a reliable source that states most historians do not describe the working to death of millions of people as a genocide." quote you made, as that really is the case or else we would have had almost every war being labelled a genocide. I had only intended to comment on the 'most historians' term with regards to its use in general as its used very frequently.

I had already read the archive. However, as mentioned apart from the forced labor system there has been an order to kill. In addition to this, Article 2 of the CPPCG does not state in any explicit way that there needs to be charges made by the victims (in this case Congolese historians) against those who may have committed the act. So in other words, it doesn't sound logical to me to rule out a possible genocide just because the victim party has not engaged in any form of accusations. Although they won't fit under "alleged genocides", I feel it's enough if there are accusations made by any party and that it may/should be worthy of a mention to broaden the perspective, especially when there is sufficient literature written on the subject. One may argue that if an act should be considered as genocide then it needs to have met the prerequisites of a hearing in the ICJ in that manner, but on the other hand most of the cases mentioned here have not even gone through the process of the ICJ let alone having gone through a hearing.

Kind regards.Joebobby1985 (talk) 02:11, 12 April 2009 (UTC)

See the article genocide definitions and also genocide#Criticisms of the CPPCG and other definitions of genocide. To be included here there is no requirement that the charges are laid by the surviving victims of a genocide, but there is a requirement that he events are described as such by reliable sources. In the case of the Congo Free State Adam Hochschild has stated "no reputable historian of the Congo has made charges of genocide;"(source in the archive) --PBS (talk) 11:51, 12 April 2009 (UTC)

The various challenges to the definition of genocides in the link you gave only makes the term more vague and strengthens my view on the flexibility of the term that's being used today for many cases of a "genocide", as you acknowledge I suppose. What I meant by sources was not just Adam Hochschild alone, in fact the main portion of the sources I indicated were the sources that contained the quotes from Hochschild. These sources seem pretty reliable to me as they're not linking to any biased government sources or diaspora views and there's even much more waiting to be found out there and it's not very hard to so... but I realise the term 'reliable' is always relative. Despite all this, if you're still persistent with regards to the events in the Congo Free State then I humbly respect your opinion. I'm not one to force results through research down someone's throat as that's against my nature as I stated and this is as far as I'll go. I'm only guessing this is a flaw of Wikipedia where one is forced to convince someone who already has a point of view on the issue, through discussions; I've had a similar experience when presenting a correct map of Portuguese colonialisation in the Americas but was faced with the same views that defend the status quo, contrary to the approach that should be of a researcher especially when dealing with issues like these. Nevertheless, I bid you a good day sir.

Kind regards.Joebobby1985 (talk) 19:25, 12 April 2009 (UTC)

Further reading

The further reading section is a leftover from the time we move the list from the Genocide article and then started to cite all the facts in this article. It was left in place because some of the articles could have been useful as sources for the sections in the article. However it is some years since this arrangement came into place and I intend to delete the further reading section as it is very large and any sources that are likely to be extracted from the section have long since been used. --PBS (talk) 10:50, 17 April 2009 (UTC)

Genocide of palestinians

What about the genocide of palestinians that Israel is commiting?? Nobody talks about that?? I think all we know how many palestinians are dying just for being family or neighbours of some suicide terrorist. Israeli forces sistematically destroy their houses as a punition, it's not a secret. Can you imagine (wherever you are, in the US, Europe, or somewhere in your confortable country) your house being destroyed just because your brother/son has killed someone?? What about the so many olive trees cut off as a punition?? Is this the democracy of a "western" country like Israel??

We could be here writing hundreds of examples of what the israelis are doing to the palestinian peolpe, but even in the 21th century is not polite to say they're commiting genocide, just because they have suffered so much in the WW2 that now everybody feels guilty and no one is brave enough to tell them "STOP".

I strongly believe it must be a section in this article about the genocide of palestinians. 89.131.5.91 (talk) 09:42, 19 April 2009 (UTC)

Other historic genocides to add, further note

I came to notice the lack of mention, nor examination and inclusion of five infamous acts I can think of are legitimately viewed as genocides or acts of "ethnic cleansing" in world history is not in the article.

1. The decline of the Californio population of Mexican-era California during the Mexican-American war, which ended by the U.S. annexation and Anglo-American settlement of the 1850's. One story about the U.S army command under General John Fremont captured the colonial capital of San Jose, California in 1847 and his troops expelled every single Spanish-speaking individual out of the community. To observe U.S. census records of persons of Spanish/Mexican descent in 19th century California declined from being an ethnic majority (over 50% of an estimated 150,000) in 1848 to 5% (under 100,000) of the state population by 1900 may be viewed by scholars whom studied ethnic group declines as a "genocide". Some parts of the Western United States were settled by Hispanic/Mexican people for over 400 years, such as the central coast of California, the valleys of northern New Mexico and along the Rio Grande, the present-day US-Mexico border in southern Texas is sometimes called "the lost land" by Mexican-Americans; and how Chicano/La Raza activist groups since the 1960's spoke of past actions by the U.S. government that nearly eradicated a culture in formerly Mexican land (the Aztlan movement) of the Western United States during the late 19th century.

2. The total of eight centuries of genocides, linguicide programs and crushed uprisings of the Langue d'oc regions also known as Occitans of Southern France by the northern French. It may be the first recorded genocide in world history when in 1209 the Holy Roman Empire (the Frankish kings) sent thousands of troops returning from the Crusades to quench a peasant rebellion to had killed tens of thousands, the beginning of endless pursuits and policies by the northern French (as the Kingdom of France and the French Republic since 1789) against the Occitans. After the French Revolution and the fall of Napoleon I in the 1810's, the French Republic abolished all the historic provinces of the former kingdom and replaced the southern half with 39 departements (or 7 to 8 regions). Meanwhile the republic endorsed a frantic cultural elimination of the Langue D'Oc by ethnicity, cultural identity and the most by language death. In the 1880's, an aggressive and humiliating campaign by the French Ministry of Education with strong planning and endorsement by Prime Minister Jules Ferry, was committed to a program to literally replace historic language (i.e. Occitan, Provencal, Arpitan, Auvergnat, Limousin and Gascon) to student pupils in French public schools, the policy called for shunning any pupil caught speaking "patois" or regional "dialects". A century or so later, nearly every language spoken by the peoples of southern France is moribund, endangered or its' decline was successful. Sounds like a cultural genocide, the periods of violent repressions and strict anti-regional language policies, and finally the 1992 French constitution made French the "official and sole language" passed before the European Union Charter of Human Rights in 1993 passed a resolution: European Charter for Regional or Minority Languages for protection of minority and regional languages, but exempted France from compliance with the treaty out of all member states.

3. The Japanese occupation of the Korean Peninsula from 1890 to 1945 when Japan surrendered to the Allies to ended World War II and had withdrew colonial rule over Korea. The occupation and annexation period by an expansionist Japan was notably brutal, oppressive and disregarded Koreans not as "equal human beings" by ancient racial homogenity dogmas of the Imperial Japanese Army. The Japanese attempted to culturally replace the Koreans' five-millennia old cultural identity as a nation, but since 1910 the Japanese government introduced over one million Japanese settlers into Korea and confiscated thousands of square kms. of farmlands from Korean peasants, also to call for demographical renovation of the Korean Peninsula into a "second Japan" ethnologically. Later the Japanese military police were sent there to repress any dissent by Korean Nationalist groups such as the 1919 Korean National Uprising against Japanese rule, which was brutally repressed by the Japanese. By the end of WWII, it's widely thought over 1 to 5 million Korean civilians were killed, many more may have starved or imprisoned, and a huge influx of Korean slave labor sent to the Japanese machinery factories. The Korean people continue to address a small global awareness to their nation's suffering under a resilient post-war Japanese government to the international community. The Japanese government continually downplays the Korean colonial occupation, although in 2005 the Japanese government and the speech given by Prime Minister Junichiro Koizumi made a formal apology for their predecessors' many crimes against humanity in pre-WWII Korea.

4. In Chile, the right-wing military regime's bloody handling of political dissidents under President-General Augusto Pinochet in the overthrowal of the left-wing Salvador Allende government in 1973, when Allende was found dead after the Chilean air force's bombing of the presidential palace. When Pinochet and the Chilean army took over, they instituted a crackdown on all political dissidents (the majority are leftists such as communists and socialists loyal to the Allende presidency) and an estimated 50,000 were arrested (or "disappeared") often without a fair trial, taken to public squares or stadiums, later to military concentration camps and about 5,000 to 10,000 of them were executed, buried in the country's vast Atacama Desert or bodies dumped into the Pacific ocean along the coastline. The Pinochet regime ended in a peaceful democratic election to restore civilian rule in 1990, but starting from Pinochet's arrest by Spanish agents in 1998 and given a trail for the World Court of International Law. Pinochet was cleared due to physical illness and old age, he dies in 2006 without any charges made against him. The involved former Pinochet regime officials suspected of human rights abuses and homicide, are given trials held by civilian Courts in Chile ever since. The victims of the Pinochet regime is ruled a politicide (a form of genocide) by most scholars.

and 5. The "Blackbird" slave trade of the South Pacific when tens of thousands of Polynesians as well the Kanaks of New Caledonia were forcibly taken to slave ships by European slave traders and bound for Australia where the majority were forced to indentured servitude in the plantations of Queensland, and South America with the worst cases of captured people from Easter Island sent to the Guano mines of Peru. The illicit slave trade peaked in the 1880's and 1890's, but was outlawed by the year 1900 by the newly established dominion parliaments of Australia and New Zealand, and South American nations when the general public viewed "blackbirding" a barbaric action of forced slave labor. It can be ruled out a genocide due to the near termination of whole tribal groups on some islands in the south Pacific and the high fatality rate associated with slave labor conditions. The practice formally ends in 1906 when thousands of Kanaks and Polynesian farm workers are expelled and returned to their home islands, but from mass disapproval by white Australians on having "non-whites" in their continent. + 71.102.2.206 (talk) 06:17, 23 April 2009 (UTC)

You wrote above "inclusion of five infamous acts I can think of are legitimately viewed as genocides or acts of "ethnic cleansing" in world history is not in the article." This is not a list of what Wikipedia editors think are genocides, but is a list of events that are stated to be genocides by reliable sources. The articles on "genocide" and "genocide definitions" explain the difference between a mass killing and a genocide, the paramaters are usually size, type of group killed and significantly the intentions of the perpetrators. Two articles that might help you understand how we get to the point where what seem obvious cases of genocide are not included here:

The Bosnian Genocide article goes into what is and is not a genocide in considerable detail explaining why Momcilo Krajisnik was guilty of multiple crimes against humanity but not genocide, and while to date only Radislav Krstic has been found guilty of complicity in genocide in an international court for his part in the genocide that took palace during the Srebrenica massacre(others have in national courts). The article quotes the European Court of Human Rights "Amongst scholars, the majority have taken the view that ethnic cleansing, in the way in which it was carried out by the Serb forces in Bosnia and Herzegovina in order to expel Muslims and Croats from their homes, did not constitute genocide. However, there are also a considerable number of scholars who have suggested that these acts did amount to genocide" (Jorgic v. Germany July 2007).

The second example is a section from this article Genocides in history #Dirty War in Argentina. It is like your example "4. In Chile, the right-wing military regime..." but the source is a judge making the claim that it was a genocide, it is not an analysis by a Wikipedia editor claiming that because it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck it must be a duck. --PBS (talk) 07:41, 23 April 2009 (UTC)

I see, on what constitutes a genocide goes by what's defined under the process of prosecution or declaration of genocide from how it is considered in international law. The Bosnia civil war and the atrocities in Rwanda were evidently coordinated mass murders between whole ethnic groups (no doubt about it), while the crime of Apartheid and Maafa may contain several levels of racial oppression to signify a genocide and the decline of American Indians and Australian Aborigines according to demographic statisticans attribute serious population declines from government policy to carry racial overtones to reduce the population numbers. + 71.102.2.206 (talk) 14:37, 23 April 2009 (UTC)

Azerbaijani Khojaly

I have noticed this section is being removed many times in which I felt the need to undo the changes. It's important to keep in mind that the article at hand is written with regards to genocides or alleged genocides. Without having to dig through much sources it's possible to pull out two sources that would qualify the case in this regard: http://www.un.org/documents/ga/docs/51/c3/ac351-9.htm and http://assembly.coe.int/documents/workingdocs/doc01/edoc9066.htm

With this in mind, I kindly ask of anyone who's removing this section to stop. If you have any opinions on the credibility of the sources linked please feel free to put them forward.

Kind regards. Joebobby1985 (talk) 14:32, 2 May 2009 (UTC)

Articles do not exist to serve as carriers of pure propaganda. Meowy 16:20, 7 May 2009 (UTC)

Pardon me but what on earth is that supposed to mean? I presented you with available sources from official documents and your best answer is "this is pure propaganda"? That sounds like the usual over-nationalist view that denies anything against their own interests. Deleting it like this is just plain abrupt, please stop. I ask you kindly to present a valid arguement. I mean no offense.Joebobby1985 (talk) 11:17, 13 May 2009 (UTC)

There is no mention of any "Khojaly genocide" in those "available sources from official documents"! Meowy 20:50, 14 May 2009 (UTC)

The source http://assembly.coe.int/documents/workingdocs/doc01/edoc9066.htm notes "Recognition of the genocide perpetrated against the Azeri population by the Armenians" in its title along with "On 26 February 1992, Armenians massacred the whole population of Khodjaly and fully destroyed the city." which sort of creates the base for an informal title of "Azerbaijani Khojaly".

Granted though that there is no explicit mention of a Khojaly genocide. Nevertheless, there is still a case of (alleged) genocide here and it would certainly be better to reach a compromise on finding a suitable title and just adding that in. However, deleting the whole section is plain abrupt and a loss of content as mentioned before, and I'm sure you would agree that the documents do indeed point to the presence of an (alleged) genocide at the very least. Joebobby1985 (talk) 01:25, 15 May 2009 (UTC)

The documents you cite are examples of lie-filled political propaganda manufactured by Azerbaijan and they are dubious sources at best. Regardless of that, there is no mention AT ALL of a "Khojaly genocide" in those sources. Please stop POV warring. It sounds like it is just your opinion that what has happened could be called genocide. Your opinion is not enough. Meowy 13:55, 15 May 2009 (UTC)

I'd consider "lie-filled political propaganda" as a biased remark to be honest. The thing these sources point out is that there is at the very least an allegation of a genocide and this article also notes in its first few paragraphs that it contains "genocides" and "alleged genocides". As for the title, I've already mentioned about reaching a compromise on finding a suitable title for the section but unfortunately you have made no suggestions in this regard.

On a final note please refrain from empty accusations like "POV warring" or the sort. I'm simply pointing to documents of at least an (alleged) genocide and that fits in with the article's purpose.

PS: It seems you've deleted the section again and noted the reason as "unsourced claim". It does (or at least did) have a source, but if you're just dismissing it because you believe "it's a lie" then that does not really fit with the article's purpose. If people were able to delete whatever they believed was a "lie" here I'm pretty sure there would almost be no content here.Joebobby1985 (talk) 18:39, 15 May 2009 (UTC)

You don't seem to get it! The article does indeed contain a list of "genocides" and "alleged genocides" but they are genocides that have been written about, or genocides that have been alleged in credible sources (preferably multiple credible sources). You seem to want to add this for no other reason than you believe it should be classed as an "alleged genocide". You have cited no source, credible or otherwise, that specifically calls events at Khojaly a "genocide". What you are doing is called POV warring. Meowy 17:10, 16 May 2009 (UTC)

Like previously stated in an edit summary, which should have sufficed for any editor with good intentions, this draft is not considered as a reliable source. This draft was prepared by Mehmet Ali İrtemçelik representing Turkey, see the bolded name on the list of individuals who signed it. Mehmet Ali İrtemçelik is the same who campaigned against the recognition of the Armenian Genocide in Europe, mostly Germany, where he made pressures to remove the mention of the Armenian genocide in the syllabus of the city of Brandenburg among many other things as well as the most active in preventing the recognition by the German Bundestag in 2005 and the following official recognition. The draft prepared by Mehmet Ali İrtemçelik was the bunny out of his magician hat on 26 April 2001 to answer to the originally tabled 24 April 2001 draft concerning the Armenian genocide put forward by Tatána Jirousová which angered the Azeri and Turkish members (known ardent deniers of the Armenian genocide) of the Concil of Europe. The only thing the draft which was signed does, is exposing the individual who prepared it as well as those who have signed it. Every single line there is bogus and not supported by a single notable non-partisan material. Even the line regarding Khojali is bogus, it reads: On 26 February 1992, Armenians massacred the whole population of Khodjaly and fully destroyed the city. As seen from the Khojaly Massacre article, the official figures from Azeri authorities (which is disputed) is of 613 individuals out of the claimed six thousand of people. Even taking the official Azeri authorities' figures (who have a history of exaggeration to demonise Armenians), as official figures, they changed it from barely over a hundred, to four hundred something to then stabilize for the six hundred range), that's about 10% of the village population, very far from the 'whole population' not even claimed by Azeri authorities who claim the village population are refugees and are waiting to return in Khojali. Furthermore, to not forget that 20 out of the 30 members who have signed were either from Turkey or Azerbaijan and who played a game in their deluded world by retaliating to the draft prepared two days prior. This does not include that several of the remaining were part of claimed Turkish friendship cocuses and pushers of Turkey into the European Union, who thought hard that by antagonizing Armenians and accusing them to have perpetrated repeated genocides extending to a century (afteral the draft accuses them to have committed several genocides, which would make laugh even Justin McCarthy himself, known ardent Armenian Genocide denier) they'll have Turkey excused for having gotten rid of such monsters who would have the third Reich shy away.

In conclusion, removing the material amount to removing vandalism. There is really something pathetic about reinserting and fighting over a passage which claims an Armenian genocide history against Azeri extending to a century (which would make of it the worst reported genocide). It seems that some have nothing better to do than antagonizing other groups. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Onlyoneanswer (talk • contribs) 22:20, 16 May 2009 (UTC)

How is an EU Council or UN source not credible? Don't they authenticise the fact that there are allegations at the very least? I'm baffled by your way of thinking on what a credible source should be and the accusations/name calling you're throwing left, right and center. The last bit is even more irrelevant to the whole case (I apologise if that's not from you, it says unsigned). The question we should be dealing with is this a genocide/alleged genocide? Whatever viewpoint you might believe (on whether it's a genocide or not) you can see there is the case of at least an allegation, and that is ultimately the purpose of the article: to form a collection of genocides and alleged genocides in history.Joebobby1985 (talk) 23:26, 16 May 2009 (UTC)

Oh sorry seems that latest addition wasn't made by Meowy and was by Onlyoneanswer, my bad. First of all you claimed the section as "vandalism" and proceeded in deleting the whole thing, even if it had been rearranged by Meowy and Kansas Bear. As for an answer to your post please see the previous paragraph on it being irrelevant to the case at hand.Joebobby1985 (talk) 23:33, 16 May 2009 (UTC)

No, it does not even qualify as alleged, you're gamming it, the term alleged in the article was meant to cool down parties, so that if some do not want to claim genocide (for example the Armenian genocide for Turkish users or Turkish readers) it still can be included. The term alleged permits also cases not submitted to international trials (since the term genocide is a legal word in terms of international laws) and which are obviously documented and could reasonably be included. The term alleged is for sure not there to include every claims made by parties. To be an allegation, the allegation should be believed by those making them, and reported as an existing allegation in notable publications. The draft submitted to the Concil of Europe, it's content isen't even claimed by the most fanatic Azeri nationalists, and their most ridiculous estimations fall short of claiming whole population of Khojali have been massacred (as it is the case in the daft). The draft is only so ridiculous which would justify its removal anywhere else, when used to support any claim like you're doing here. There have been many cases during the NK war, one of which for example Maragha, which unlike Khojali was not in the middle of a war, where the Armenian population just vanished in a period of less than a day. Some Armenians claim it genocide, does not mean it is one, neither that it even qualify as alleged and this regardless of if Armenia submit it and several parties with conflict of interest sign. Also you claim EU Concil or UN, that's not accurate, only those who have signed the draft claim so, the EU concil distance itself from such drafts. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Onlyoneanswer (talk • contribs) 23:42, 16 May 2009 (UTC)

In all fairness most people who believe something is a "genocide" don't like to have the word "alleged" written in front of it so I'm pretty sure it wasn't meant to just "cool down" parties and form a compromise,(and also feel free to have a look at the dictionary definition of the word: http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/alleged). Anyhow, you said "To be an allegation, the allegation should be believed by those making them", so do you really believe the people who are submitting these documents to the relevant institutions don't really believe it? That's daft and biased. Claiming an official source to contain "ridiculous" information does not change the fact that there is the presence of allegations either. You have your opinions on a matter and that should be respected, as well as others who have different opinions on the matter. In addition to this, if there is an allegation and official documents of a Maragha genocide or any of the sort then feel free to add it here to be honest, any addition with official sources should be welcomed. But as for the case at hand I'm sure you would (in accordance with the true definition of the word alleged) see this would fit in with the article's purpose. Joebobby1985 (talk) 00:00, 17 May 2009 (UTC)

In addition to that you mention that the whole of the EU Council or UN have not approved it I think. However, you would find that only a few of the genocides/alleged genocides are recognised by them. The fact I'm trying to point out here is that there have been official submissions made to these institutions in that regard. I'll also quote you here: "only those who have signed the draft claim so", is that not enough to at the very least (for those who believe it's not a genocide) to qualify it as an alleged genocide? There is a submission, there are official documents (evidence), and there are claims. Whether you support it or not does not change the fact that there are these claims. Joebobby1985 (talk) 00:12, 17 May 2009 (UTC)

Yes, cool down..., check the history of this article..., one of the two reasons was indeed to cool down. The reason why the term alleged was added has nothing to do with what you imply by it. Check the articles title for a clue. and no I will not be adding a Maragha genocide, second wrong does not make it right. And yes, I am claiming that the individual who prepared the draft does not believe in the content of the draft. To be an allegation, the allegation has to exist. The draft claim that the whole population of Khojali was massacred. This allegation does not exist anywhere worth being cited, not even Azeri official allegations. One man (Mehmet Ali İrtemçelik) allegation, does not make a notable genocide allegation. Fringe allegations have no place, as you'll end up having several genocide allegations per ethnic group. That was not what was intended when the article Genocide in history was created. And what are we debating about, just checking the title of the article disqualify your addition. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Onlyoneanswer (talk • contribs) 00:13, 17 May 2009 (UTC)

Please read the third paragraph of the article with regards to your comment about the title. You also claim "one of the two reasons was indeed to cool down", what was the other? Perhaps it was the true definition of the word "alleged", as stated in every dictionary out there? You also claim it's one man but there are signitures on there and say "This allegation does not exist anywhere worth being cited, not even Azeri official allegations.", feel free to check the document submitted to the UN (http://www.un.org/documents/ga/docs/51/c3/ac351-9.htm) and I'm sure you would find that was not submitted by one man but was by the country of Azerbaijan itself via the Permanent Representative to the UN. Joebobby1985 (talk) 00:20, 17 May 2009 (UTC)

Just more additions to official sources: http://www.un.org/documents/ga/docs/52/plenary/a52-85.htm (the Armenian response to implications of a genocide) and http://www.human.gov.az/?sehife=etrafli&dil=en&sid=MTMyMjMzMTA4MTMyNjE1Mw== (Decree of the Azerbaijani President claiming a genocide). Joebobby1985 (talk) 00:28, 17 May 2009 (UTC)

I was clear enough, second reason being, that genocide has legal conotations, and that the may be law-binding. Those who signed the draft did it in retaliation to a prior draft, in any case, that makes a fringe allegation. And fringe allegations cooked for the occasion do not qualify as notable enough to be included. See this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Notability Read it and reread it as long as you don't get it. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Onlyoneanswer (talk • contribs) 00:30, 17 May 2009 (UTC)

I mean no offense, but did you even read my last post? I urge you to at least have a look at the last source I cited referring to a decree by the Azerbaijani President. Joebobby1985 (talk) 00:33, 17 May 2009 (UTC)

In addition to that I just found a most recent source. (http://www.un.int/azerbaijan/62%20Session/Press%20Release%202008/Khodjali.pdf) by the Mission of Azerbaijan to the UN which explicitly claims a "Khojaly Genocide" and even cites to other sources via footnotes. Fact is, there are claims and hence there are allegations. The fact that there are allegations are clearly seen in the sources mentioned before.Joebobby1985 (talk) 00:39, 17 May 2009 (UTC)

I did, Armenia and Azerbaijan (while Azerbaijan being the initiator) have accused eachothers of genocide. And? That does not make it an allegation of genocide in an article on Genocide in history. What you are doing amount on pushing a fringe which those authoring it know it being baseless. Find any notable publication making such an allegation. Again for the upteenth time, for it to be included there should be a notable allegation. A notable allegation does not mean a letter prepared by a political official, it means a legitimate work, in a peer reviewed publication supporting the position of genocide. Can you do that? If you can't, what you are doing is a waste of time. Because believe me you are misunderstanding the term 'alleged' in the context of this article. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Onlyoneanswer (talk • contribs) 00:47, 17 May 2009 (UTC)

Have a look at this then http://www.eurasianet.org/departments/insight/articles/eav030602a.shtml. It mentions the accusations and is not a source tied to the Azerbaijani government. Saying something like "What you are doing amount on pushing a fringe which those authoring it know it being baseless" is uncalled for and biased. People making claims don't actually believe it themselves? Like I said before, that's daft. It's also not very helpful to twist the word "alleged" from its obvious meaning according to what you like for it to mean. Joebobby1985 (talk) 00:54, 17 May 2009 (UTC)

Yeah, from a man stating: the bloodiest page in the policy of ethnic cleansing and genocide regularly perpetrated by Armenian chauvinists. So do you have any peer reviewed publication making the case for a Khojali genocide, so that neither of us waste his time? Talking of twisting, it is apparent that you are gaming this article, by using the word 'alleged', when you have it all wrong in its use. Unless you find a peer reviewed publication, there is no point in wasting my time. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Onlyoneanswer (talk • contribs) 00:57, 17 May 2009 (UTC)

Oh dear. I'm beginning to question your motives on if you really want to reach a compromise. No, the man stating that is the President and he's actually quoted to say it, not the actual author of the publication. The author of the publication is pointing to the accusations of a genocide and how it may jeapordise the Karabakh peace process. I suggest you reread the article. Fact is there are allegations and you're denying it even though it's staring at you in the face when you're reading the article. Joebobby1985 (talk) 01:03, 17 May 2009 (UTC)

This is obviously going nowhere, Clare is a she, not a he, I was refering to the president not the author of the article who was based in Baku when she wrote that. My point was that the Azerbaijan claims that Armenians regularly perpetrated genocides..., not only Khojali is claimed to be that. That was to show you the differences between blunt claims and notable positions, published in peer reviewed publications. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Onlyoneanswer (talk • contribs) 01:08, 17 May 2009 (UTC)

And where I claimed I wanted to reach compromise, there is no compromise in removing nonesense which would denigrate legitimate cases of genocides by simply being compared to that nonesense. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Onlyoneanswer (talk • contribs) 01:11, 17 May 2009 (UTC)

Read the first paragraph of that source if you want to find a reference to only claims of a "Khojaly Genocide". Please refrain from diverting the attention from the source to irrelevant details. You also claim I have the wrong use of the word "alleged" when all dictionaries out there would prove you wrong in that manner. I'd also like to remind you that labelling claims as "nonsense" is biased and does not fit with the articles purpose of it being a collection of genocides and alleged genocides. Joebobby1985 (talk) 01:19, 17 May 2009 (UTC)

I take it that you have no notable work making claim of genocide at your disposal, only political claims from a government who claims genocide regularly perpetrated by Armenian chauvinists. Come back when you find what I asked you. I will not repeat myself for the word alleged. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Onlyoneanswer (talk • contribs) 01:41, 17 May 2009 (UTC)

I'm sorry but you don't seem to accept any source that explicitly states there are claims. It doesn't matter which sources are shown to you, you will refuse to accept it as "notable work" and just disregard the primary sources of official claims (as pointed out by the various official documents) along with any other articles that talk about the claims of such a genocide which jeapordise the Karabakh peace process. The sources I have pointed out to already explicitly state the presence of claims. As for your comment of "Come back when you find what I asked you" please see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:CIV Joebobby1985 (talk) 01:56, 17 May 2009 (UTC)

I only accept notable works making the case of genocide, all the other cases present in the article have them. Will you come with one? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Onlyoneanswer (talk • contribs) 02:01, 17 May 2009 (UTC)

Comments by an indefinitely blocked sock puppet account struck out. --PBS (talk) 18:04, 18 May 2009 (UTC)

I have removed your strikethroughs. There is no rule I know of that says that edits by blocked users have to be removed or struck out (if there is, please cite it). Moreover, I think the contributions have value to this ongoing discussion, a discussion that I am participating in. Meowy 16:39, 20 May 2009 (UTC)

The strikeouts severed their purpose primary purpose in allowing Joebobby1985 to request a third opinion. user:Meowy you should not have removed the strikeouts without asking me first, and I would remind every one who reads this that Joebobby1985 Onlyoneanswer is an indefinitely blocked sock-puppet account. --PBS (talk) 17:39, 20 May 2009 (UTC)

I think that's a typo - Onlyoneanswer is an indefinitely blocked sock-puppet account. --Anderssl (talk) 21:44, 20 May 2009 (UTC)

Thanks for pointing out my mistake (I'm please that at least one person read my comment :-) --PBS (talk) 09:22, 21 May 2009 (UTC)

Responding to a request for a third opinion on this dispute. It seems to me that it is well established in the sources provided that the government of Azerbadjan alleges that Armenian forces conducted a genocide in the town of Khajoli. On the other hand, this claim seems to be a little dubious, given the definition of genocide at the start of the article as an assault on an entire group - ethnic, racial etc. An attack on eno one single town, as horrible as it may have been, isn't the same as an assault on an entire people.

The source from the Council of Europe points to a genocide perpetrated over time during most of the 20th century - that's a slightly different perspective. I think if there is a notable claim to such a large-scale genocide, it should be possible to find more (notable and reliable) sources describing it - such as works by historians etc. In that case the paragraph should be renamed and rewritten to reflect this larger claim. Otherwise, if this is a dispute only about a claim that the massacre of civilians in the town of Khajoli constitutes genocide, it would seem necessary to explain how one isolated incident in a larger conflict can be described as genocide.

Finally, referring to the opinions of others as "lies and propaganda" seems pretty unhelpful in advancing the discussion. Please remember to be civil. --Anderssl (talk) 20:01, 18 May 2009 (UTC)

Apologies for bad spelling. I meant Khojaly of course. --Anderssl (talk) 20:04, 18 May 2009 (UTC)

Hello, first of all thank you very much for the effort in picking up the case in the third opinion section. An attack on one single town would indeed not really fit into a case of genocide alone, but the Azerbaijani officials seem to note the "massacres" as just a part of the process, while Human Rights Watch also noted their observation "During the winter of 1992, Armenian forces went on the offensive, forcing almost the entire Azerbaijani population of the enclave to flee, and committing unconscionable acts of violence against civilians as they fled. The most notorious of these attacks occurred on February 25 in the village of Khojaly." (http://www.hrw.org/legacy/reports/1993/WR93/Hsw-07.htm). Nevertheless, Azerbaijani sources seem to refer to the most recent claim as the "Kho(d)jaly Genocide". The President of Azerbaijan's decree (http://www.human.gov.az/?sehife=etrafli&dil=en&sid=MTMyMjMzMTA4MTMyNjE1Mw==) even dates his claims back to the 19th century. Sadly the Presidential decrees don't put footnotes/referencing and such. I had heard about sources with such claims with regards to the 19th century previously in books by historians (but only vaguely; I didn't get the chance to read them yet) so I refrained from mentioning them previously as I am unable to pull out the exact quotes from those books. (I could try to contribute in that regard and help expand the section some time later I suppose, as soon as I'm done with my nerve wreaking thesis).

Anyhow, I'll revert the latest deletion back to its old state for now and add more details as I find them later on (and have the time). To be very honest, this discussion created an impetus for me to find even more information and sources (sources that aren't even referenced in the Khojaly Massacre article) through research via the internet alone.

Kind regards. Joebobby1985 (talk) 01:14, 19 May 2009 (UTC)

The Azerbaijani government's claims of genocide are absolutely frivolous. Not a single scholar specializing on the genocide has even given an ounce of credence to their claims and I challenge anyone to find a single reliable source which calls the attack and an alleged massacre of a town during a territorial conflict a "genocide." The fact that Azerbaijan's narrative begins from 1828 and claims that Armenians have been "genociding" them for 200 years is enough to show what lengths the government goes to fudge the truth and how lauble their claims are. The resolution sponsored by PACE is not a source and as the user above me noted, was a politically-motivated piece of legislation that was conjured up by Turkish and Azeri parliamentarians. Joebobby1985's POV-pushing is absurd and I find it even more disturbing that users are so willy-nilly able to accept claims which have no historical foundations. --Marshal Bagramyan (talk) 03:08, 19 May 2009 (UTC)

Of course they are politically motivated, as the introduction of this list makes clear "In nearly every case where accusations of genocide have circulated, partisans of various sides have fiercely disputed the interpretation and details of the event, often to the point of promoting wildly different versions of the facts." If we do not include this one because it is POV pushing should we delete all pronouncements of genocide by all political organisations? For example should we remove the section Genocides in history#Sabra-Shatila, Lebanon because it was a UN resolution, or should we document such incidents not because the incidents are or are not genocides, but because the are allegations of genocides made by one or more notable organisations or people? --PBS (talk) 08:44, 19 May 2009 (UTC)

What Meowy, Onlyoneanswer, and MarshallBagramyan are all saying, and which I wholeheartedly agree with, is: the Azerbaijani government aside, who else supports this drivel? There is a tendency among many people to cheapen the use of the word genocide by hastily and unacademically throwing it around at the very first instance of violence. Senator John McCain of Arizona said if the Anglo-American force left Iraq too early, 'genocide' would occur. It's preposterious, of course and this case is no different. The word 'genocide' came to be associated with Xojaly in order to counteract Armenia's supposed monopoly of its tragedy. And what better way to do this than to fabricate and piece together non-related events going back to the mid-1800s that document a 200 year long genocide?! There have been serious works, many of which I personally do not agree with, on the studies of massacres which have been equalled to genocide, such as the Holodomor and Srebrenica, in area study journals but just because a government is trying to foist their views upon the whole world doesn't mean that we should provide them the platform to mislead and deceive on as popular an informational website as Wikipedia. If the government of Turkmenistan was saying that the sky was green would we then add it on the corresponding Wikipedia articles? Just because Azerbaijan says that the churches and monasteries of Nagorny Karabakh are Caucasian Albanian, we should then place that view even though a single serious scholar doesn't support that view? We're here to presenting the results done by serious scholars and I second MarshallBagramyan's challenge. --The Diamond Apex (talk) 15:10, 19 May 2009 (UTC)

If the claims of genocide are so ludicrous as you guys claim, it should be easy enough to come up with reliable and notable sources which refute them. Those can then be incorporated into the article, and the Wikipedia readers can be allowed to judge for themselves.

That being said, I would love to see an article titled "Claims about the color of the sky", with an entry for countries claiming it is green, others claiming it is made of blue cheese, etc. ;) --Anderssl (talk) 16:34, 19 May 2009 (UTC)

The fact that no one has supported the Azerbaijani government's claims of genocide is ample proof of a refutation of a genocide (the word massacre has been utilised but certainly not 'genocide'). If no one seriously claims the sky is green, alas, there is no need to present 'refutation'. Even the Sabra and Shatila massacre, which in no way can be construed as a genocide, is referred to in scholarly works on genocides (see, e.g., Genocide: Conceptual and historical dimensions (1997) by George J. Andreopoulos). The disputed passage is complete tosh as well: of Xojali's total population, less than 10% of its populants were actually killed in this attack according to the Azerbaijani government figures.

I'm still waiting for someone to demonstrate a single, unbiased and reliable source arguing for its conclusion.--The Diamond Apex (talk) 21:02, 19 May 2009 (UTC)

Ok, so here is a source that refutes the claim that the sky is green. It took me 0.5 seconds to find. Now whenever you find sources to support your claims, I am sure the community will agree to have them included in the article. --Anderssl (talk) 23:01, 19 May 2009 (UTC)

You didn't understand my point, you provided a source on the fact that the sky is blue, not that the sky is not green. I'm claiming there was no genocide, and to be a source dismissing genocide, there should be something to be dismissed. Academics review and critic positions published by the academia, if there is no academic material sustaining a position you can not expect me to find an answer to the non-existing position. Politicians and lobbyists can make any claims they want, but as long as there is no peer reviewed publication supporting a thesis, that thesis is non existent from the academicians point of view. --The Diamond Apex (talk) 03:09, 20 May 2009 (UTC)

Look TDA, you seem to be misunderstanding something: Wikipedia is not an academic publication, and sources are not limited to peer-reviewed academic articles. Please review the editing policies and do your best to make a constructive contribution to the debate. We all agree that the claim about genocide in this case is debatable, and in my mind the paragraph about Khojaly would benefit from being rewritten with those criticisms in mind. But that will only be possible if we agree to include divergent viewpoints and let the Wikipedia readers judge for themselves - as long as this discussion remains deadlocked, we won't be able to establish consensus and improve the paragraph. Feel free to propose an improved version of the paragraph here on the talk page. --Anderssl (talk) 03:30, 20 May 2009 (UTC)

Mate, are you listening to yourself? All the editors who have engaged in the reverting have been more than fully active in the discussion. It's wrong for you to speak for a consensus to be reached when in fact the status quo excluded any mention of it. There are numerous editors here expressing their opposition to this cockamaney nonsense. It's up to you to achieve concensus by making proposals and asking the input from editors. Donald Bloxham, a genocide scholar, raises a good point when he writes: Like the above users claims, He writes: "Yet it is as inaccurate for Armenians to conflate the Karabakh situation or either of the Sumgait and Baku episodes with the events of 1915 as it is for Azerbaijan to claim that the Armenian massacre of at least 200 Azeris at Khojaly in 1992 was an act of genocide. Periodic pogroms on either side, and more systematic evictions, do not constitute genocide, yet both sides have succumbed to the temptation of the misleading deployment of the term in pursuit of nationalist goals. (The Great Game of Genocide, Oxford University Press, 2005 pp. 232-233) That's as damning a resolution and as credible of a source that we can find to refute these silly claims.--The Diamond Apex (talk) 15:17, 21 May 2009 (UTC)

TDA: I fully understand your position that if an outlandish political claim is made it can be difficult to find a refutation, not because the political claim is right, but because those who disagree will not dignify the statement with a response.

But Wikipedia is not being claiming that the events in Khojaly were a genocide it is being claimed that the Azerbaijani government have stated it was. A United Nations member is far more notable than many of the other claimants of various alleged genocides on this page. See my point above about Genocides in history#Sabra-Shatila, Lebanon. If we were to delete this section for the reasons you give should we trawl through the article removing all such resolutions? For example do you want to remove the first paragraph of the Genocides in history#Armenian that starts "On 15 September 2005 a United States Congressional resolution,..."? If not why not? --PBS (talk) 08:59, 20 May 2009 (UTC)

No RS'on on this self-proclaimed 'genocide'. The Azerbaijany myth on genocide is criticized by scholars, including Sergei Markedonov as a propagandist tool. And there are reliable sources on such claims. According to Donald Bloxham, during the Karabakh conflict, the Azeri and Armenian governments regularly accused each other of genocidal intent, although these claims have been treated skeptically by outside observers.. Gazifikator (talk) 13:35, 20 May 2009 (UTC)

Could you alter your last contribution to this talk page and replace the <ref> </ref> with parenthesises () so that the source is visible on this talk page? Instead of just repeatedly removing the section in the article why not add Donald Bloxham's observations to help explain that the Azerbaijan claims should be treated with skepticism? --PBS (talk) 09:34, 21 May 2009 (UTC)

An "allegation" is not just someone claiming something - for it to be properly called an allegation it has to be backed up by some reasoning or evidence, and (for inclusion in a Wikipedia article) that reasoning/evidence has to be within a valid source. Otherwise this article might as well contain everything! I hear mass genocide being committed as I type, a lawn mower killing millions of innocent shoots of grass. Will we include that too, if I make a website about it or send a press release about it to the COE? And that is not an entirely silly claim, where does it say that the victims of "genocide" have to be human? Meowy 16:28, 20 May 2009 (UTC)

So do you deny Khojaly Genocide?It is unbeleviable when all of you complain about denial of Armenian genocide by Turkey.Denial is the last phase of genocide, as you know.Many historians also deny Armenian genocide such as Bernard Lewis so should we remove Armenian genocide?Armenian genocide is a political concet too.Since Armenian government refused opening its archives for investigations by historians but supports recognition of Armenian genocide by other countries.Abbatai (talk) 07:06, 21 May 2009 (UTC)

There was no such thing. To claim otherwise is a flight of fancy. --The Diamond Apex (talk) 15:17, 21 May 2009 (UTC)

The "genocide" label has been pushed by the Azeri government and an international parliamentary organization. These claims are in itself worthy of mention in the article. To illustrate the varying views on this matter, we can quite easily discuss the opinions of a few experts, such as Donald Bloxham. As PBS stated, this should be an effective compromise between both sides. As always, keep nationalist pride outside of this discussion. This has quite clearly turned into a dispute between Azeri and Armenian editors, with arguments from both sides being made on frivolous policy-irrelevant grounds. Nishkid64 _{(Make articles, not wikidrama)} 17:30, 21 May 2009 (UTC)

And it's mentioned as so in its respective article. Why bother giving it a voice of legitimacy here?--The Diamond Apex (talk) 20:06, 21 May 2009 (UTC)

Genocide is the deliberate and systematic destruction, in whole or in part, of an ethnic, racial, religious, or national group.I cant see any words that claims a genocide should be a fact if it is written by genocide scholars.In Nagorno-Karabakh war a group of Azeris were killed by Armenians because of their ethnicity. Also for the UNHCHR:In the present Convention, genocide means any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such:

(a) Killing members of the group;(What happend in Khojaly is)

(b) Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group;(You can see it on 1 million Azeri refugees.)

(c) Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part;(Deportation of Azeris from Karabakh and other regions of Azerbaijan that occupied by Armenia)

So it really overlaps with genocide.Abbatai (talk) 17:22, 21 May 2009 (UTC)

You have just defined the Dersim Genocide, yet you voted to delete that article. Citing no reliable source(Genocide By George J. Andreopoulos, p144). Apparently, your idea of reliable sources is a Council consisting two-thirds of Turks and Azeris!

Genocide is the deliberate and systematic destruction, in whole or in part, of an ethnic, racial, religious, or national group.Not suppressing a political group. -- Abbatai

You should re-read the definition; Killing members of the group. Contradiction after contradiction....... --Kansas Bear (talk) 18:17, 22 May 2009 (UTC)

It's not our task to interpret historical events in the context of the UN's definition of genocide. We rely solely on reporting what reliable sources (or even partisan sources for this specific article) have said on the matter. Nishkid64 _{(Make articles, not wikidrama)} 17:35, 21 May 2009 (UTC)

Then the decision of Parliamentary Assembly of the Council of Europe is enough it is not our duty to discuss whether it was a propaganda or fact.Abbatai (talk) 17:55, 21 May 2009 (UTC)

Exactly. Nishkid64 _{(Make articles, not wikidrama)} 18:18, 21 May 2009 (UTC)

I believe you set a dangerous precedent here, Nishkid. IF reliable sources can be, in this case, a majority of Turkish and Azeri diplomats voting to label Khojaly a genocide, then one simply need find any source(Kurdish or otherwise) calling Dersim a genocide(Genocide By George J. Andreopoulos, p144). What is absent here is the realization that certain editors are here to promote their hatred of another race or anyone that stands in the way of that,[1].--Kansas Bear (talk) 18:17, 22 May 2009 (UTC)

We have an obligation to appeal to common sense. For the record, I don't consider the statement made by a largely Turkish-Azerbaijani MPs in retaliation for the voting of an Armenian Genocide bill a reliable source nor should it be construed as so. If no academic work treats Xojaly in that respect, how is that we are giving it a platform to air its views? Yes, we all know it's propaganda but for the average ordinary person who has never heard of Azerbaijan or Xojaly, this is simply going to mislead them. For the third time, please cite a non-biased, reliable source, per Wikipedia's guidelines, to support the content of that paragraph.

I don't think the Azerbaijani government knows the meaning of genocide and it's clear that its shock effect on world opinion has had an impact ever since 1992. Were we to believe that a massacre took place, how can we, if we are all capable of utilising logic, understand this in the context of the UN definition. I've read all about original research and interpretations on Wikipedia but this is pushing it. There's a reason why the Baku and Sumgait massacres are not in this article (even though the Azerbaijanis there had intent on specifically killing Armenians), despite the fact that it has been viewed through the prism of genocide studies.--The Diamond Apex (talk) 20:06, 21 May 2009 (UTC)

TDA you did not answer my question higher up the page, if we remove this one why leave mention of any political comments on genocides and alledged genocides on this page. How do we judge the difference? --PBS (talk) 09:20, 22 May 2009 (UTC)

I think Nishkid64 is getting the purpose of this article wrong. It is a listing of genocides and alleged genocides. An "alleged genocide" is very different from a "genocide allegation". Basically an alleged genocide would be an event which has had some academic recognition as being a genocide or having some genocidal component to it, but, for whatever reasons, does not have a majority recognition. This Khojali issue is a genocide allegation, not an alleged genocide, and it is an allegation that is contained solely in what is quite clearly Azeri-sponsored propaganda. Meowy 23:33, 21 May 2009 (UTC)

Transmit your complains to PACE not Wikipedia.Abbatai (talk) 06:51, 22 May 2009 (UTC)

One possibility would be to agree that any motions agreed to by politicians, that are not agreed by a majority of the members of that body will not be included in this article, and only the parliaments of the member states of the United Nations or bodies to which the states are affiliated (such as the UN and the EU, Council of Europe, AU, etc) will be noted. What we can not do is have one country's views singled out as unimportant and biased but include others, as it is a clear breach on the NPOV policy.

What this proposal would do is remove all those cases where Mr. Smith of the parish council of Pratt's Bottom has entered a motion that there was a genocide in Ruritania last year. It would also remove early day motions and similar where a small minority of an international body or national parliament put up a motion they know will not pass but are non the less submitted because to do so scores political points (but when included in this article my present a bias, as readers will often not know that there is a significant difference between a resolution passed by a national parliament (or international body) and proposed resolution which does not have enough support to be be debated by a national parliament (or international body) let alone pass). --PBS (talk) 09:20, 22 May 2009 (UTC)

Lots of examples of this type of point scoring can be found in the Council of Europe. The first is recorded at the website of www.armenian-genocide.org Council of Europe Parliamentary Assembly Resolution it is "Written Declaration No. 275" signed by 50 members. The Council of Europe is http://www.coe.int/ under how to search is this page which also describes some of the different types of "Adopted Texts", "Documents, Working Papers" ... using this search engine it is possible to look at all Working Papers and search for Document=8829, that returns Commemoration of the Armenian genocide of 1915. (Notice it is themed under ["crime against humanity"] which is a [search criteria] as is ["Armenian"] and ["Azerbaijan"], (unfortunately for our purposes there is no themedd search criteria for "genocide"). Using ["crime against humanity"] or ["Azerbaijan"] it is easy enough to find Doc. 9066 "Recognition of the genocide perpetrated against the Azeri population by the Armenians" (30 signatures), but looking though the list of "Written Declarations" which include ["Azerbaijan"] as a theme, it is clear that there is a punch and judy show going on, with claims and counter claims, see for example Doc. 6678 "Situation in Nagorno-Karabakh". I have not checked but I would be supprised if any one who signed document 6678 also signed document 9066. In my opinion this indicates that "Written Declarations" (which covers a host of different specific titles) should not be used on this Wikipdia article or any other Wikipeida article on genocides or alleged genocides, as they can be confused with "Adopted Texts" which are much more significant. --PBS (talk) 10:37, 22 May 2009 (UTC)

There are alleged genocides with less reliable sources in this topic.However you (pro-armenian users) only focus on Khojaly genocide Why?Because you are trying to hide the past guilt of your country.The same thing is also used on Armenian genocide article as a reference but your claims only for Khojaly.This is a reliable source, just because you say it shouldnot be used on Wikipedia as reference doesnt make it unreliable.Your claims arenot wikipedia policy.Abbatai (talk) 07:27, 25 May 2009 (UTC)

Enough of this 'hiding the guilt of your country' nonsense! I count 179 references - books, articles, academic websites - for the Armenian genocide and not even one academic source to even support the inclusion of the word 'genocide' with Xojaly. The PACE source is as partisan is as it gets. If you cannot furnish anything besides this simple motion then this question is closed.--The Diamond Apex (talk) 15:14, 26 May 2009 (UTC)

PBS: thanks for your well-considered proposal. This sounds fairly reasonable to me, although I would prefer to modify it a little: "Written Declarations" adopted by only a small minority in the PACE (or similar declarations in similar bodies) should not be used as a primary source. Cathegorically excluding these sources all together sounds a bit too drastic in my opinion. But these sources should clearly be used with caution, and never as a primary (or the only) source.

As for the specific Khojaly question, I think the discussion of 'reliable sources' is a little confused. Since this is about a genocide allegation/alleged genocide (sorry Meowy, don't really understand the difference between those two), a reliable source doesn't mean a source who can be trusted to tell the truth about what happened in Khojaly, but one which can be trusted to tell the truth about the allegation. That is, the PACE website is a reliable source to document the fact that an allegation of genocide was put forward in Doc. 9066, the Azerbaijani president's website is a reliable source to document the president's claims about genocide, etc. The real question is not about whether these sources are reliable, but whether they are notable enough for inclusion here. I'm still up on the fence on this, and I definitely think the paragraph should at the very least be rewritten to include criticism of the claims put forward. But with the current level of debate, this will take some time... --Anderssl (talk) 18:52, 26 May 2009 (UTC)

Ok, I expect to get blasted from all directions now, but since we all seem to agree that at least a rewrite is in place, here's a proposal:

The government of Azerbaijan claims that Armenian forces performed acts of genocide against Azerbaijani civilians on several occasions throughout the 20th century. The claims center on the Khojaly Massacre, in which around 200 Azerbaijani civilians in the town of Khojaly were killed by Armenian armed forces during the Nagorno-Karabakh War. Human Rights Watch described the events as "the largest massacre to date in the conflict", and Azerbaijani politicians have unsuccessfully tried to get this recognized as an act of genocide in the Parliamentary Assembly of the Council of Europe. (cite web|last=|first=|url=http://assembly.coe.int/documents/workingdocs/doc01/edoc9066.htm%7Ctitle=No. 324 - Recognition of the genocide perpetrated against the Azeri population by the Armenians|publisher=Parliamentary Assembly of the Council of Europe|date=2006-06-29|accessdate=2009-05-21) The description of the events as 'genocide' appears to have little support from academic and independent sources, and has been refuted by genocide scholar Donald Bloxham (The Great Game of Genocide, Oxford University Press, 2005 pp. 232-233).

I put references in parenthesis so they'll be visible here. This is meant as a sketch, just to get something concrete to discuss. Feel free to bring out any objections, on one condition: That you also provide your own version of the paragraph, that you think is more accurate (and preferrably not longer than the current version, that is probably already a bit too long). --Anderssl (talk) 18:19, 1 June 2009 (UTC)

Let me offer the first correction myself: on closer inspection, it should probably not cite the number of civilians killed since it appears to be controversial, and getting it right would require more space. Perhaps it should just say something like "The claims center on the Khojaly Massacre during the Nagorno-Karabakh War. --Anderssl (talk) 23:34, 1 June 2009 (UTC)

What about adding March Days.

Please propose a specific wording to be included in the paragraph (and please sign your comments). --Anderssl (talk) 16:53, 2 June 2009 (UTC)

The Diamond Apex has been silenced by a fake sockpuppet allegation maliciously concocted by Nishkid, I was similarly attacked by another administrator, but managed to get the lie refuted. Since this article has been handed to the propagandists, use the worst wording you can imagine to please PBS, Nishkid, Sandstein, and co. Meowy 18:50, 22 June 2009 (UTC)

Protected

Per the report at WP:ANI#Genocides in history, this page is protected for two weeks or until consensus is reached on the issue above. I am now examining whether additional sanctions are required per WP:ARBAA2.  Sandstein  09:25, 21 May 2009 (UTC)

I have provided all contributors to the recent edit war with the following precautionary notification: This is to notify you that, per Wikipedia:ARBAA2#Amended Remedies and Enforcement, editors who repeatedly or seriously fail to adhere to the purpose of Wikipedia, any expected standards of behavior, or any normal editorial process while editing content related to Armenia and Azerbaijan may be given sanctions which may include blocks of up to one year in length, bans from editing any page or set of pages within the area of conflict, bans on any editing related to the topic or its closely related topics, restrictions on reverts or other specified behaviors, or any other measures which the imposing administrator believes are reasonably necessary to ensure the smooth functioning of the project.  Sandstein  09:40, 21 May 2009 (UTC)

The trouble is, your project (i.e. your agenda) seem very different from the project. Meowy 23:35, 21 May 2009 (UTC)

Australia

I found this edit: Revision as of 18:38, 23 October 2007 by user:Arcot which introduced the sentence with this "Historian dismisses Tasmanian aboriginal genocide "myth"" as the source. But the source only says "He argues only 118 Tasmanian Aborigines were killed directly by the British. The rest died from a lethal cocktail of introduced diseases." it does not mention what the diseases were, so I'll remove the specific diseases from this article. If anyone objects then I'll have to re-instate it, until the protection comes off. --PBS (talk) 15:04, 31 May 2009 (UTC)

Except that this source is pretty much the only source that argues this, and nobody else agrees. The natives were murdered by settlers, as everybody knows.Likebox (talk) 17:13, 10 June 2009 (UTC)

Likebox you have made this edit citing With intent to destroy By Colin Martin Tatz pp. 78-79 Given the wording in the first paragraph on page 78 ("diseases introduced by convicts and settlers ... seriously depleted Aboriginal numbers") which paragraph do you think over the two pages supports the sentence you added to this article namely "The majority were killed at the hands of settlers" (my emphasis)? --PBS (talk) 23:46, 10 June 2009 (UTC)